Baucus & Conrad cave again, toughen health care bill's anti-immigrant provisions to appease Joe W.

[Are_grits_groceries]

Yes, because that's the first thing a sane person would think after Wilson's bizarre, and boorish, and untrue outbreak during the joint session, an outburst that has the GOP reeling: What can we do to appease Joe Wilson's legitimate concerns so he'll stop being mean to us? From TIME:

The controversy over Republican Rep. Joe Wilson's shouting out "You Lie!" at the President over his claim that illegal immigrants wouldn't benefit from health-care reform apparently sparked some reconsideration of the relevant language. "We really thought we'd resolved this question of people who are here illegally, but as we reflected on the President's speech last night we wanted to go back and drill down again," said Senator Kent Conrad, one of the Democrats in the talks after a meeting Thursday morning. Baucus later that afternoon said the group would put in a proof of citizenship requirement to participate in the new health exchange — a move likely to inflame the left.

http://www.americablog.com/2009/09/baucus-conrad-cave-again-toughen-health.html

These clowns just won't stop. You holler at the President, and they do what you want.

[bridgit]

1. I think it's good they define that, it'll be a bloody thorn until they do

[KansDem]

2. "Proof of citizenship?" What the hell is that?

I mean, I'm a citizen but how can I "prove it?" :shrug:

[Are_grits_groceries]

4. Opened a can of worms.

What will you have to have to prove you are worthy?

[MNDemNY]

9. With your birth certificate. ("vault copy" only)

And sworn testimony from the doctor who delivered you, AND photographic evidence. This will go a long way to cutting the cost of health reform.Thank you Sen. Conrad !!! You da man!!!!

[Freddie Stubbs]

12. Birth certificate, naturalization papers

[KansDem]

16. But my birth certificate says, "Territory of Hawaii"

Man, I hope a birther isn't put in charge of processing my "proof of citizenship" request! :scared:

[Seeking Serenity]

18. Birth certificate. Passport. (n/t)

[pampango]

20. You don't look Hispanic or speak with an accent, do you?

You should be OK. ;)

My wife who immigrated here from the Philippines 30 years ago, but still has an accent, had better carry her US passport in her purse everyday or they might just leave her at the scene of the crash. Sheesh.

[CTyankee]

23. Do you have a passport? That is serious proof of your citizenship.

Or the original copy of your birth certificate?

I had to temporarily relinquish my original birth certificate to Social Security when I applied for it. They sent it back to me.

I had to use my birth certificate to get the passport, also. I had a bit of a problem getting a valid one a few years back. My original passport with my birth name was long gone and the only one I had was one I got when I was married to my first husband. Now that I have my second husband's last name I had to submit a copy of my marriage license which listed my former name on it. What a rigamarole that was!

[dflprincess]

39. My mom's Medigap insurance is provided by the state

she had to submit her birth certificate, marriage certificate (to explain the name change) and state ID card as proof of citizenship to qualify. When she first qualified for the program this wasn't required, it came up just a few years ago. Fortunately, she had copies of her birth & marriage certificates so we didn't have to track them down, but it was a real pain in the neck - especially as the copy of her birth certificate she has was issued in 1942 and is typed - but the county seal is on it so it's legal, but it freaks out younger clerks.

I imagine those of us with passports would just have to show them.

This whole thing is stupid. You'd think they'd have better things to do than gnash their teeth over an undocumented worker getting medical care and I'll bet most of them call themselves Christians.

[Maru Kitteh]

3. I am SO FUCKING TIRED of Democrats prostrating themselves before these cretins

I really, really am.

[asjr]

5. I have come to believe there is no

one, absolutely no one in D.C. that has a brain, much less using it. Do any of the Congress people ever think What can I do for my country? No, it has become What's in it for me. Why is it imperative we have a wording that says You are on your own if you are not legal and will be turned away from any help at all if you are illegal. Even if you are paying for health insurance. We will see to it you, your spouse or child will have a nice burial in Potter's Field when you do die. No, Mr or Ms Illegal. You gave nothing to my election campaign so I will not give you anything. This is not the America where I was born. And for the last several years we have allowed just about anyone who can sign up to run for anything who has an ulterior motive. We have become the land of the indentured and the home of the greedy.

[imdjh]

13. No one (who matters) is proposing illegals be turned away from emergency rooms.

Why is it imperative we have a wording that says You are on your own if you are not legal and will be turned away from any help at all if you are illegal.

It's imperative that we have wording that our public systems are off limits to illegal aliens because we have people who think it's cool and hip to be totally ignorant of the impact of illegal immigration on American economics and environment.

[asjr]

17. I became a little heavy-handed on this I see.

I am just so tired of all of this bickering in Congress.You are correct in that it must be hip to be ignorant.

[pampango]

24. Evidence please.

"It's imperative that we have wording that our public systems are off limits to illegal aliens because we have people who think it's cool and hip to be totally ignorant of the impact of illegal immigration on American economics and environment."

If there were studies that showed that illegal immigrants were a net plus to the American economy would that change your attitude towards them? Is so, I'll be happy to post them. If not, good luck in your lifelong quest to deny as many benefits to as many people as you possibly can, so that those benefits can be reserved for "my people".

[imdjh]

26. Sure, go ahead.

"If there were studies that showed that illegal immigrants were a net plus to the American economy would that change your attitude towards them? "

No. In the first place, you can't do it without a bunch of extrapolated bullshit, and in the second place, I don't want 12 -30 million people who are already here being added to by the 60 million they will make or bring. Do you have any idea how much water, sewer, garbage, and power that is? That is like having FIVE New York Cities dropped into the American economic and environmental system. We have too many people now. We don't need exponential population growth.

[CreekDog]

33. if they are already here, that's already going to happen

you ranting against it won't change reality.

illegal immigrant presence in the USA is a ship that sailed long ago.

don't like it? well the only way to change it is to change history.

[imdjh]

35. We have had mass repatriation of illegal aliens in the past.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Repatriation

[CreekDog]

37. well then, keep praying for that 8 year Great Depression

everything will suck, but the Mexicans will leave! :sarcasm:

:wtf:

[imdjh]

38. I hear they have a new iPod coming out, isn't that kewl?

So, like , who do you have for study hall?

[CreekDog]

52. goofball

:eyes:

[dflprincess]

40. Emergency rooms don't provide treatments for chronic conditions

unless you're having a crisies (like a diabetic coma) that could have been avoided with regular care. But apparently it's okay to let our fellow humans suffer if they don't have the right paperwork.

Perhaps the American employers who have broken the law by luring the undocumented workers into the country should be sent the bills for their medical treatment.

[imdjh]

42. Emergency rooms aren't supposed to provide regular care for foreigners.

They are supposed to patch them up and send them back to their own countries, most of which have national health care.

unless you're having a crisies (like a diabetic coma) that could have been avoided with regular care. But apparently it's okay to let our fellow humans suffer if they don't have the right paperwork.

Perhaps the American employers who have broken the law by luring the undocumented workers into the country should be sent the bills for their medical treatment.


Wow. You really don't see anyone as being responsible for himself. You don't get it. The reason for universal healthcare for Americans, isn't because it's the right thing to do- it's because it is the economically correct thing to do. All that lost puppy shit running through your brain is mush.

[dflprincess]

49. When an American company advertises in another country

for workers it needs in its the meat packing plants (as both Swift and Hormel have done), it knows full well that they will be attracting undocumented workers.

Once upon a time, not so long ago, jobs in these plants were good union jobs but the companies broke the unions and started bringing in undocumented workers. They know that the worse that will happen is they a pay some fines if they get caught and their workers will be deported, but they can always find more desperate people. Best of all, they don't have to worry about the workers agitating for better conditions or, if they dare to, the company can call in ICE itself. Any fines will just be written off as the cost of doing business. It's still cheaper than paying a living wage and providing decent working conditions and benefits.

It's American employers who are not being forced to take responsibility for themselves and they are putting us all in danger with the unsafe and unsanitary working conditions.

It could be argued that when individuals come into the U.S. illegally, looking for work, they are trying to take responsibility by trying to find a better way to take care of themselves and their family. I have a very hard time slamming people who take great risks to come here for the same reason my ancestors did.

Go after the employers and you'll see a drop in the number of undocumented workers.

[imdjh]

53. So how many will you let in?

Are you going to be at all choosy? Any criminal record, health, skill, trade, or education standards?

It could be argued that when individuals come into the U.S. illegally, looking for work, they are trying to take responsibility by trying to find a better way to take care of themselves and their family.

It could be argued that Clyde Barrow robbed banks because he was poor and learning disabled. But like the illegal aliens, Clyde would have been judged on whether he had the ability to know right from wrong. Which he did, and so do they.

I have a very hard time slamming people who take great risks to come here for the same reason my ancestors did.

So what is the cut off? How many tens of millions of foreigners are you willing to let cross into the US before it hits you that we might not be able to take them all?

[dflprincess]

54. You completely ignore the American companies that are responsible

for people coming in looking for the jobs those companies have advertised in Mexico and Central America. Employers, not the workers, are the ones that cause the problem.

Send a few CEOs to prison or make the fines for breaking immigration laws so high it breaks the company and you'll see a big drop in undocumented workers.

[imdjh]

55. How many immigrants will you let in? It's a simple question.

Ten million? Fifty million? Two hundred million?

[dflprincess]

56. As many as Swift , Hormel and other companies will hire

because they're the reason people come here and until something is done about the employers, nothing will change about undocumented workers coming into the country.

Now, what would you do about those who actually cause the problem?

[imdjh]

57. You are misreading the question. I'm asking how many immigrants will you admit to the US.

You're the queen of immigration for the rest of your life. How many immigrants, legal immigrants (because they will have your permission) will you admit to the US during your lifetime?

[dflprincess]

58. Not having all the information required to make that kind of decision

I can't say. I don't know what industries are truly unable to find workers in the U.S. or just claim they can't because they don't want to pay a living wage and benefits. I don't know how many are seeking poltical asylum nor how many who are here legally may be trying to get their parents or other relatives into the country.

I am not an idiot, I do know there needs to be limits - but I object to the fingers only being pointed at the people who want to come here legally or otherwise. The problem lies with the employers who continue to hire undocumented workers and as well as the ones who lie about their need for H1B visa holders while ICE turns a blind eye to the violations these companies commit. We will never get a handle on immigration until the employers are held to the law.

[Metta]

6. Rewarding bad behavior and another sign of no moral compass.

Happy karma, Kent and Max. Your actions won't quiet the crazies.

[GardeningGal]

7. So, someone with a green card wouldn't get covered? nt

[Union Yes]

10. Legal Immigrants can buy into the PO under HR 3200.

[GardeningGal]

19. How is that (or is it) impacted by the changes in the OP?

Specifically, the following sentence:

Baucus later that afternoon said the group would put in a proof of citizenship requirement to participate in the new health exchange — a move likely to inflame the left.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

8. piss on immigrants. Its the christian thing to do.

what disease infected the GOP, and how did it transfer to our blue dogs?

[MNDemNY]

11. "ignorance" it's rampant all-over.

[imdjh]

15. The US has millions of legal immigrants. Adds something like a million per year.

Did Joe Wilson say that he was concerned about health care resources going to immigrants or illegal immigrants? There is a difference.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

28. one group is human, the other is not, is that it?

I see.

[imdjh]

36. One group has permission to be here, the other does not.

I'll ask you the same question I ask everyone who thinks it's somehow clever, cool, hip, compassionate, groovy, or "progressive" to be so "open minded" when it comes to immigration. What's YOUR cut off? A hundred million? A US population of 600,000,000 or a billion?



Grow up.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

41. The first rules concerning immigration were created

under Section 8, article 1 of the constitution, which provided the congress power to enact uniform regulations over immigration. By the wording, and just as importantly, by other documents which discussed immigration, while the diseased and the criminally minded were to be prevented from accessing our country, pretty much everyone else was let in.

Various wars and plagues across europe and asia led to massive immigration, which was, for the most part supported. There was always a small group of morons who felt that "Our jobs are at risk" and "keep them Irish bums out", but in fact, every time we opened the immigration gates, there was a growth in our economy and noticeable improvement in every city and town.

After WWII, Europe was destitute, and America was, well, pretty well off. Unlike England, which mortgaged its future because of its global military, the US not only had the factories and means of production, it had the financing to change from war goods to peace goods. A huge inflow of immigrants created new demands for goods and services, housing and transportation, and off course, food. All of which we had in abundance.

If we opened up immigration again, not only with those 14,000,000 become full taxpayers and honest citizens, but our entire economic situation would improve.

[imdjh]

43. So are you saying that the 14million illegals should be naturalized and welcomed ...

... under the same terms as the European immigrants of the past?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

47. in a word,

yes.

[Boku-Wa]

44. And you believe that you're 'compassionate'? You add nothing to this discussion with

your comment and you distort the argument that many make about immigration.

US government policies have significantly contributed to the increases in migration from Mexico and Central America.

In the 1980s it was the savage attacks on civilians by US trained, equipped and supported armies in Central America, especially Guatemala and El Salvador, that caused migrants to flock to the US.

If you think NAFTA has been detrimental to US workers, you need to investigate it's impact in Mexico, especially among the rural poor. I've placed 2 links below.


*************************************************************************
Immigration Flood Unleashed by NAFTA's Disastrous Impact on Mexican Economy

"While there has been some media coverage of NAFTA's ruinous impact on US industrial communities, there has been even less media attention paid to its catastrophic effects in Mexico:

* NAFTA, by permitting heavily-subsidized US corn and other agri-business products to compete with small Mexican farmers, has driven the Mexican farmer off the land due to low-priced imports of US corn and other agricultural products. Some 2 million Mexicans have been forced out of agriculture, and many of those that remain are living in desperate poverty. These people are among those that cross the border to feed their families. (Meanwhile, corn-based tortilla prices climbed by 50%. No wonder many so Mexican peasants have called NAFTA their 'death warrant.'
* NAFTA's service-sector rules allowed big firms like Wal-Mart to enter the Mexican market and, selling low-priced goods made by ultra-cheap labor in China, to displace locally-based shoe, toy, and candy firms. An estimated 28,000 small and medium-sized Mexican businesses have been eliminated.
* Wages along the Mexican border have actually been driven down by about 25% since NAFTA, reported a Carnegie Endowment study. An over-supply of workers, combined with the crushing of union organizing drives as government policy, has resulted in sweatshop pay running sweatshops along the border where wages typically run 60 cents to $1 an hour."

cont. http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0425-30.htm
*************************************************************************

OR ...........................

*************************************************************************
NAFTA Free Trade Myths Lead to Farm Failure in Mexico
Laura Carlsen | December 5, 2007

"On Jan. 1, 2008 the last remaining tariff barriers permitted under the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) are slated to fall. Corn and beans were given the longest (15 years) liberalization schedule because they are at the core of Mexican culture and subsistence. Other key products—including sugar, milk, and chicken, which had formerly been regulated under a safeguard agreement to protect Mexican production, are also included.

The tariff removal ostensibly gives full rein to an open-market trade and investment regime between the United States and Mexico. The idea is that all products now enter into a competitive market that will self-regulate to enhance production, efficiency, investment, and, indirectly, the lives of Mexican producers and consumers.

That's the idea. But what has happened in the Mexican countryside over the past 14 years of NAFTA shows that free trade has been a disaster for small farmers in Mexico.

Corn farmers forced out of business by subsidized imports from the United States have swollen the ranks of migrants to the United States, where many of them contribute their poorly paid labor to the same agricultural sector that displaced them. New generations of children in rural areas see their only future en el otro lado, on the other side, where their fathers, mothers, uncles, or cousins earn the money they send home that enables their families to survive."

cont. http://americas.irc-online.org/am/4794
**************************************************************************

[imdjh]

46. I claimed to be compassionate?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

48. no, we would never accuse you of having compassion. Trust us.

[Boku-Wa]

50. Guess not. Sorry, I was just giving you the benefit of the doubt.

So you're like all the other 'angry' nativists out there?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

51. and there, in a shell of nut, is our problem. Democrats ARE compassionate

Democrats DO want people's suffering to diminish. Democrats WANT the injured and the sick to be cured. The other side simply sees a profit based on someone else's distress.

[imdjh]

60. nevermind

...............

[blueworld]

14. LOL - birth certificates, I presume? No loyalty oath? n/t

[Romulox]

21. If we "can't afford" to cover all Americans, how can we "afford" to cover illegal immigrants?

Both existing immigrants and those who will come here specifically for subsidized healthcare in the future?

[Winterblues]

22. You holler at the President, and they do what you want.

If only that were true. It seems so many of us have been hollering at the top of our lungs and yet the swing goes against us every time..

[jtrockville]

25. Is is REALLY so important for a nation of immigrants

to display such HATRED for immigrants?

And what about TOURISTS? Are we going to let them die as well, just to prove how much we HATE foreigners?

[jgraz]

27. Blessed are the sick -- as long as they have proper documentation

How many of our problems would be solved if those who profess to be Christians actually followed the teachings of Jesus?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

29. but the GOP would cease to exist, if they actually followed those teachings.

All they have left is greed, hate, irrational ideas, and hatred of education.

[jgraz]

31. Kind of my point...

:evilgrin:

[ChairmanAgnostic]

32. would be nice, eh?

[jgraz]

34. If we had a true progressive Democratic party, it would already be over

Enacting true, European-style single-payer health insurance would ensure that Repukes would never again hold power in the Federal government -- and probably most state and local governments.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

30. oops dupes

[deminks]

45. Here it comes, wait for it,...ID cards for voting, health care, you name it

Rethugs have been trying to get these for years now. And Baucus just caved. What side is he on, anyway? Oh, wait, I know. He's like a rethuglican sleeper cell.

I am spitting mad now.

[Marr]

59. They're not "caving". They're vigorously fighting to promote their

constituents' agenda. By "constituents", I mean the insurance companies, of course.