I'm re-reading British historian Kenneth Clark's "Civilisation" and this paragraph caught my eye...

[KansDem]

Written 40 years ago, he describes the fall of the Roman Empire...

What happened? It took Gibbon six volumes to describe the decline and fall of the Roman Empire, so I shan’t embark on that. But thinking about this almost incredible episode does tell one something about the nature of civilisation. It shows that however complex and solid it seems, it is actually quite fragile. It can be destroyed. What are its enemies? Well, first of all fear—fear of war, fear of invasion, fear of plague and famine, that make it simply not worthwhile constructing things, or planting trees or even planning next year’s crops. And fear of the supernatural, which means that you daren’t question anything or change anything. The late antique world was full of meaningless rituals, mystery religions, that destroyed self-confidence. And then exhaustion, the feeling of hopelessness which can overtake people even with a high degree of material prosperity. There is a poem by the modern Greek poet, Cavafy, in which he imagines the people of an antique town like Alexandria waiting every day for the barbarians to come and sack the city. Finally the barbarians move off somewhere else and the city is saved; but the people are disappointed—it would have been better than nothing. Of course, civilisation requires a modicum of material prosperity—confidence in the society in which one lives, belief in its philosophy, belief in its laws, and confidence in one’s own mental powers. The way in which the stones of the Pont du Gard are laid is not only a triumph of technical skill, but shows a vigorous belief in law and discipline. Vigour, energy, vitality: all the civilisations—or civilising epochs—have had a weight of energy behind them. People sometimes think that civilisation consists in fine sensibilities and good conversations and all that. These can be among the agreeable results of civilisation, but they are not what make a civilisation, and a society can have these amenities and yet be dead and rigid.

Kenneth Clark, Civilisation, New York: Harper & Row Publishers, 1969, pp. 3-4.

Sound familiar?

[Lancer]

1. I remember being fascinated by that series when it aired on PBS

Timely quote; thanks.

[jasi2006]

2. What we did to the Indians (Native Americans) was said to be

cvilizing them. What we do in the name of God is said to be "saving" people.

[redqueen]

9. Excellent point.

We should be careful with those words.

[sinkingfeeling]

3. Based on that, I give the American Empire about 20 more years.

[Ikonoklast]

4. We are past the apogee.

The decline is already apparent; we will become a second-rate economic power in this century.

[tabatha]

5. I have that book - read it many years ago - don't remember much.

However, there is another factor that people did not take into account at that time.

"Material Prosperity" is something that has limits. Civilization in those terms is limited - because we live on a planet with finite resources.

In fact, the uncivilized, may have been better suited to living on the planet.

If mankind can now take the best of both worlds, we may survive.

Otherwise, one day there may be no more civilization because humans on earth will be extinct.

All that will remain is the quiet of a few organisms that have survived slowly recolonizing the planet.

[chaska]

6. You should start reading John Michael Greer....

http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/

He's a historian who writes about this very subject, but as pertains to here and now.

Without a doubt the smartest guy on the web. I never miss his weekly posts.

[snagglepuss]

7. Great excerpt. Thanks for posting. K&R

[The Magistrate]

8. A Treat, Sir, To Hear Mention Of Mr. Cavafy, A Splendid Poet

Here is the poem mentioned, followed by a link to the collected works of the Gentleman:

Waiting For The Barbarians

-What are we waiting for, assembled in the forum?

The barbarians are due here today.

-Why isn't anything going on in the senate?
Why are the senators sitting there without legislating?

Because the barbarians are coming today.
What's the point of senators making laws now?
Once the barbarians are here, they'll do the legislating.

-Why did our emperor get up so early,
and why is he sitting enthroned at the city's main gate,
in state, wearing the crown?

Because the barbarians are coming today
and the emperor's waiting to receive their leader.
He's even got a scroll to give him,
loaded with titles, with imposing names.

-Why have our two consuls and praetors come out today
wearing their embroidered, their scarlet togas?
Why have they put on bracelets with so many amethysts,
rings sparkling with magnificent emeralds?
Why are they carrying elegant canes
beautifully worked in silver and gold?

Because the barbarians are coming today
and things like that dazzle the barbarians.

-Why don't our distinguished orators turn up as usual
to make their speeches, say what they have to say?

Because the barbarians are coming today
and they're bored by rhetoric and public speaking.

-Why this sudden bewilderment, this confusion?
(How serious people's faces have become.)
Why are the streets and squares emptying so rapidly,
everyone going home lost in thought?

Because night has fallen and the barbarians haven't come.
And some of our men who have just returned from the border say
there are no barbarians any longer.
Now what's going to happen to us without barbarians?
Those people were a kind of solution.

Constantine P. Cavafy

http://cavafis.compupress.gr/kave_32.htm

[dixiegrrrrl]

11. Thank you for that poem, and the link.

I am thoroughly enjoying his writing.

[The Magistrate]

12. He Is An Old Favorite Of Mine, Ma'am

Learned of him through a mention in Mr. Durrel's 'Alexandria Quartet' years and years ago.

The historical interludes are fascinating; some of the love poems are simply heart-breaking.

[pansypoo53219]

10. rome survived a while after caligula

i read a caligula biography before the start of IWaq. history does indeed repeat. he also had oedipal issues. and napoleon. but we all need to read kevin phillips-american theocracy. better if we had read it when published, but i didn't have it.

[Warren Stupidity]

16. As in 400 to 1400 more years, depending on the meaning of 'rome'.

As odd and corrupt as he was, and as tumultuous the imperial succession was, the Roman Empire lasted an incredibly long time, really up to the dawn of our own era.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

13. My husband and I listened to a History of the World cd series

on a car trip a little while ago and realized that history is really just a long dark hallway filled with cruelty and barbarism that is illuminated every so often with brief intervals of light. It's one civilization after another attempting to assert their superiority and attain and retain dominance and control of resources while demonizing any tribe or nation not of their ilk.

It really put it all into perspective. If we lost electricity for 6 months in any major city, we'd see how brittle is the fabric of modernity and how little we know of ourselves and of each other.

[The Magistrate]

15. As Someone Once Said To Mr. Gibbon, Ma'am....

"History is just one Damned thing after another."

[Confusious]

14. I always thought

That Rome spent too much time and energy trying to get back to what it had in the end, instead of expending energy and time looking forward to being something new.

Of course, they were liberal ( Open to all ideas, taking the gods of Greece as their own, methods of warfare of the Etruscans )in the start, conservative ( If it ain't Roman, its crap ) in the end. Also being arrogant as all hell doesn't help.