Obama's plan - buy crap private insurance or get fined. Not real reform, IMHO.

[grahamhgreen]

[Cant trust em]

1. Or if you don't have insurance, buy through the public option. nt

[tinrobot]

3. I sure hope there's one I can buy it from.

[Cant trust em]

5. Why wouldn't you be able to if you don't have insurance?

Isn't that the point of the public option?

If there's something that refutes this, can you forward it to me?

Thanks.

[tinrobot]

13. He said less than 5% of Americans would use the Public Option.

It's right there in his speech.

Here's the quote:

"And the insurance reforms that I've already mentioned would do just that. But an additional step we can take to keep insurance companies honest is by making a not-for-profit public option available in the insurance exchange. (Applause.) Now, let me be clear. Let me be clear. It would only be an option for those who don't have insurance. No one would be forced to choose it, and it would not impact those of you who already have insurance. In fact, based on Congressional Budget Office estimates, we believe that less than 5 percent of Americans would sign up."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/09/obama-health-care-speech_n_281265.html

A public option that covers less than 5% of Americans doesn't sound all that encouraging to me.

[Echo In Light]

14. Doesn't exactly sound as if it pertains to the 'public' very much at all?

[Cant trust em]

17. Would sign up and would be eligible to sign up are different.

I think that's an important distinction.

Why would the other 95% of uninsured not sign up?

[tinrobot]

22. It would only be an option for those who don't have insurance.

At least that what he said.

So, if I have crap insurance from my employer, I'm forced to keep it? If I'm already buying crap insurance as a self employed person, I can't drop it for the public option?

These will be important questions as we move forward.

I personally think the 5% number is low to keep conservative rhetoric at bay, but we won't know until we know.

[Cant trust em]

23. I agree that those are very important questions. You're right on.

But I don't think that we should get all up in arms about the plan until we get those answers ironed out.

If the answer comes out that you can't opt out of crappy employer provided insurance, then it will certainly make this reform weaker.

[grahamhgreen]

31. Are the details of the public option printed anywhere?

[grahamhgreen]

30. If there is a public option - he did not commit to this unfortunatly.

And even then it was already hamstrung. I want to quit my employer insurance - kaiser - and join a good public plan.

Kaiser denied 28 percent of claims last year.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

50. A four year window? The public option is not set in stone and Pres. Obama said it would only be for

those who don't presently have insurance.

[progressivebydesign]

2. that's not his plan. Why are you pushing this blue dog scare tactic here? n/t

[Laelth]

4. Well, why not? Everyone has to pay into the system.

Or it won't work, right? Who cares if you can't afford the co-pays? Who cares if your plan only covers 60% of your bills? Who cares if you have an $8,000.00 deductible before the insurance will pay anything at all.

WE DON'T!

You must pay in! Why?

(because we don't want to pay higher taxes, and we don't care if your insurance is crappy)

:sarcasm:

And I am supposed to be happy about that? :eyes:

:dem:

-Laelth

[TK421]

7. About that fine...I read it was estimated to be around $3000.00...am I right?

that's a fucking credit-card balance right there for me, and since I got laid off from my job of 8 years and had zero luck finding something that pays close enough to what I had just to make ends meet, I don't see how a fine like this could be tolerated. I can barely afford to buy food with the unemployment I've been getting.

[Cant trust em]

10. Under the plan that Baucus is going to propose next week.

That is a significant chunk of change.

[Laelth]

11. No clue yet what the fine will be.

I think the Baucus bill proposed $3,800, but I seriously doubt the final bill will contain a fine that big.

But who knows?

:shrug:

:dem:

-Laelth

[grahamhgreen]

37. HR3200 fine is 2.5 percent of your yearly income

[TK421]

42. Uh-huh.....like THAT will be fucking tolerated

edited to add: that was not intended as any kind of snark against you with your post...I just mean that people simply will not stand for that bullshit

[TK421]

44. Just gotta add....that just doesn't fly, unless, because I'm still unemployed when

this kicks in ( IF IT PASSES AND KICKS IN ) I get subsidized....I'm not reading a hell of a lot about the unemployed here and who is collecting unemployment

[grahamhgreen]

45. If you are unemployed, and have no assets, etc, etc. , THEN you get Medicaid

at least theoretically.

ID post a link but I'm typing on my phone

[Johonny]

57. cause everyone doesn't have to pay into Medicare...

which has basically everything you just posted. OMG a liberal proposal with a mandate, how... liberal. Cause programs without mandates work so well. :eyes:

The liberals have their own anti-tax teabaggers

[Festivito]

6. Hey! Do you think this a free country or something? /nt

[blindpig]

8. I quit my crap insurance

it was worthless. So now I am to be fined for refusing extortion? Come and get it, motherfuckers.

[Cant trust em]

12. Can't you then purchase through the public option? nt

[FiveGoodMen]

16. They keep waffling on whether there's going to be a public option

AND there's every chance that any public option they create won't be very good.

[Cant trust em]

19. Shouldn't those be bridges we cross once we know more information?

Based on what we know right now, if someone doesn't have insurance they will be able to buy it through a public option.

[FiveGoodMen]

21. "Based on what we know right now"

We know nothing of the kind.

The idea's been floated ... and criticized. That's all.

[Cant trust em]

25. The criticisms aren't even of a concrete proposal.

It's passing judgment on something that doesn't even exist fully.

Instead of criticizing something that isn't there, wouldn't it be better to lobby to make sure that your concerns are addressed?

[FiveGoodMen]

26. Dozens of groups and millions of US are lobbing for it

But every other day there's word that Obama and the congressional Dems won't stand firm on it.

Do you really think it'll be easier to fix once it's signed into law?

[Cant trust em]

27. I think we read too much into the tea leaves around here.

There's too much unknown at this point to pass judgment. We're nowhere near the final point of drafted legislation, let alone signing it into law.

[progressivebydesign]

46. Gosh, no.. but now all of US have to pay for you when you get sick. Thanks. n/t

[jonnyblitz]

51. you sound like a typical republican. nt

[grahamhgreen]

54. No. We pay for insurance, our claims are demes, and we buy CEO's gold-plated china

[deaniac21]

48. Hope you find an acorn.

[JVS]

9. Hopefully the insurance equivalent of Safe Auto will appear

That way we can get minimum coverage at a bargain basement price. Of course, it will still be like being uninsured, except you have to pay for it.

[blindpig]

18. Hopefully?

Geez, you set the bar low.

Been there, done that, it sucks. With the discount I get for being uninsured I'm ahead of the game.

[JVS]

24. I'm not saying I'm happy about it. But if I'm going to be forced to pay for shitty insurance...

I hope it's cheap!

[grahamhgreen]

40. Essentially, we give the insurance companies money for nothing so they can buy G-5's

[grahamhgreen]

41. Essentially, we give the insurance companies money for nothing so they can buy G-5's

[spanone]

15. why don't you enlighten us on the facts...not a real post imho

[grahamhgreen]

35. FACT - The President gave no commitment to a public option, bit did commit

To mandatory insurance. This is code to the insurance industry for tens of millions of new clients.

The very real possibility exists that we may be forced to buy private insurance ( and there will be a cheap, crappy one for the poor).

No commitment to bulk drug purchasing.

No way to opt out of your private insurance and get the public if your in a company plan.

You'll be fined 2.5 percent of your yearly salary but still not be covered (according to HR 3200).

[Aramchek]

20. i guess you'd rather just go to the emergency room

[PHIMG]

28. Private Insurance = Defective Product.

Adding more complexity to the healthcare financing system to SAVE the private insurers is NOT CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN.

Change we can believe in is MEDICARE FOR ALL.

Eliminate the middlemen (private insurers) and save $400 billion a year!

MEDICARE FOR ALL NOW!

[Deja Q]

53. It's a defective service.

I wish insurance was a "product". It'd likely be in the shape of a football.

[qb]

29. If you make having no health insurance criminal, then only criminals will have no health insurance.

:sarcasm:
Anything less than a publicly-financed single payer system is criminal.

[SoCalDem]

32. Like California's auto insurance law..crap..on a stick

When our oldest began to drive we INSISTED that he pay us the difference in how much our policy rose to cover him fully, on our policy.. He ranted & raved because "all he HAD to carry was $5k liability"...and ALL his friends' parents thought that was okay for THEIR kids...

I reminded him that if he ended up totaling somebody's new Porsche, THEY would not be satisfied with that measly $5K policy he had, and they would sue US & we'd lose our house.

[earth mom]

33. Yep-the people got screwed over BIG TIME. Meanwhile the fucking insurance companies are partying

right now the bastards. :puke:

[BlueDemKev]

39. Insurance Co's Partying?.....or thanking the Lord?

It's probably fair to say that insurance companies are breathing a sigh of relief as opposed to having their own Mardi Gras. Remember, they will no longer be able to exclude people with pre-existing conditions or be able to cancel someone's insurance because they get "too" sick.

Their claims expenses will undoubtedly increase as a result of this, which of course, they'll pass on to consumers by jacking up premiums. However, mandating that EVERYONE by health insurance will help to offset these new expenses which will help keep the premiums down.

This may work out...at least I hope it does.

[grahamhgreen]

55. You don't seriously believe they will no longer rescind and exclude for PRE-existing?

What is the penalty how is it arbitrated?

Me vs big insurance after they cancelled my insurance and refused to pay my claim - who will wln court?

[BlueDemKev]

58. You will win....

If the Baucus' bill is passed as is, it would allow you to bring a civil suit against the insurance company who denied you coverage (or charged you a higher premium) because due to a pre-existing condition. Believe me, there are PLENTY of high-powered progressive lawyers in this country who would love to become famous for sticking it to a big insurance company. Also, insurance companies would have to consider how much money THEY'D have to give up not only in fighting the case but against the negative publicity they'd receive.

A couple of years ago, at the company I worked for, a woman went on maternity leave under the Family & Medical Leave Act. During her 12-week absence, the company did some reorganizing and eliminated her position. I guess they didn't realize that they were breaking the law by letting her go while she was on FMLA leave! Anyway, she came in with her attorney and although she didn't get her old position back, they gave a one heck of a sweet severance package AND offered to pay her a six-figure bonus if she'd agree to do contractual work for the company for six more months.

Never knew one could have it so good after a layoff, huh? ;-)

[grahamhgreen]

59. Fight a lawsuit while fighting cancer, might work if you stay alive long enough...

I hope!

[BlueDemKev]

61. Not necessarily.....remember PR is involved as well

Can you imagine the media frenzy if a cancer patient has their coverage cancelled after Congress has made it illegal to do so?

One phone call to a law firm would have attorneys clammering at the person's door, eager for a piece of the damage $ and publicity. Even if the person was too ill to fight it themselves, you know their family members would go all the way with the case.

Even if the family ultimately lost, the cost to the insurance company would be tremendous (legal bills) and other ins. companies would think twice before they take a similar course of action.

There's a reason big business hates big government....they don't like having to follow laws which force them to control their excessive hunger for more wealth.

[grahamhgreen]

63. As long as there is criminal liability and they go to jail if guilty, I guess that's OK.

[BlueDemKev]

64. Well.....

...that's not possible. This would be a civil matter.

[grahamhgreen]

66. If someone kills somebody else by wrongly denying them care, someone should go to jail.

[natrat]

34. you people are so behind on this --ried endorsed coops today

pelosi is hinting at that---writing is on the wall here


Reid Endorses WellPoint’s Co-op Plan
By: Jane Hamsher Friday September 11, 2009 9:46 am


The Senate Majority Leader endorses the Mike Ross/Kent Conrad/WellPoint authored co-op plan:

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) endorsed the concept of health insurance cooperatives Thursday, siding with centrists in the House and Senate who want healthcare reform but oppose a public option.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) also hinted she could accept that approach a day after President Barack Obama delivered an address to a joint session of Congress that offered encouraging words for both centrists and liberal Democrats who have demanded a public insurance option.

I think I may have to adjust my prediction for the co-op "squeeze play" on July 20:

The easiest political path to passing health care is still running the "co-op" crunch. Regardless of what the House does, the Senate can pass Conrad's shitty fake co-op. The Blue Dogs band together and refuse to vote for anything else, and that's what comes out of conference. There's a PR blitz to sell it as a "public plan" (which is why we've worked so assiduously to define it as NOT a public plan), and in a rush to get something passed, Rahm starts twisting progressive arms -- which have been historically very easily twisted.

Blue Dog Mike Ross presciently submitted virtually the same co-op plan in a July 31 amendment that finally emerged this week in Max Baucus's Senate plan. But since it now looks like Pelosi is on board with co-ops, that means the Blue Dogs aren't going to have to take the hit.

Is this a great country or what?



http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/09/11/reid-endorses-wellpoints-co-op-plan/

[grahamhgreen]

36. I want single payer - Medicare for all - HR676.org

[dana_b]

43. me too but it isn't going to happen now

we're going to have to keep pushing on that one.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

52. Until there is radical campaign finance reform and corporate lobbyists are banned

from The Hill, HR676 will never pass.

[BlueDemKev]

38. Not surprising

I felt all along that the Democrats would have to compromise with the conservatives within their party to get something passed. Sadly, there just aren't the votes in either house to pass the public option.

I sure hope these non-profit co-ops work out the way they're intended to. If not, we'll be back here in a couple years dealing with this issue yet again. :eyes:

[kenny blankenship]

47. Let me guess -the insurance corps will run the co-ops right?

[BlueDemKev]

49. Not that I'm aware of.....

My understanding is that the government will set up the co-ops and then "turn them loose" to operate as private, non-profit companies which will be owned and operated by its members (patients). The only problem is unless enough people join this co-ops, they won't be able to sustain themselves without government assistance.

[grahamhgreen]

56. I think we can call this the PAY OR PUNISH provision. Needs to be PAY AND PROVIDE.

[and-justice-for-all]

60. With a PUBLIC OPTION...

there can be fines, because technically, EVERYONE should be able to afford at least, the Public Option.

But to not offer a Public Option and tell people to buy private health care when they can not afford it to begin with, makes NOT FUCKING SENSE.

[Echo In Light]

62. Makes good sen$e under corporate rule, which is what our sham rep democracy actually is

[Skittles]

65. it ws never intended to be reform