Sarkozy's carbon tax.

[JDPriestly]

Thom Hartmann mentioned this in his show today. This could finally break up the free trade agreements that are ruining western economies, turning us into third world nations and destroying the environment in the process. This is a promising first step. Sarkozy's plan is already being vilified in the press. This is going to be a bigger fight than health care.

PARIS (Reuters) - French President Nicolas Sarkozy launched plans on Thursday for a carbon tax to encourage industry and households to cut energy consumption.

The levy, initially set at 17 euros ($24.78) per metric ton of carbon dioxide emissions, will translate into a rise in the price of fuel for cars, domestic heating and factories.

"The gravest challenge that we face is climate change ... Every one of our compatriots must feel concerned," Sarkozy said in a televised speech aimed at winning over a skeptical public.

. . . .

Read more
http://www.reuters.com/article/environmentNews/idUSTRE5892V120090910

Sarkozy is one courageous guy. And I expected him to be more conservative than he has been. He is innovative and -- has guts.

[Oregone]

1. "will translate into a rise in the price of fuel for cars, domestic heating and factories"

Sorta sounds like a regressive consumption tax in an environmental guise. I bet the excess will be passed on down to the consumer, and the money it generates will not correlate to an actual reduction in emissions.

[lapfog_1]

3. On the other hand.

It could lead to green products produced locally to compete with the dirty but cheap imports.

[Oregone]

5. Or it could just be another consumption tax passed down to the consumer

I don't see anything different happening in British Columbia, but Im not expert

[lapfog_1]

6. Goods have costs.

Cost to obtain the raw materials, cost of production, marketing, sales.

But one cost not really accounted for completely is the secondary cost of pollution in the manufacturing process, another is the cost of disposal of the used product.

These costs need to enter into the equation, and the government is the appropriate place to recapture them.

[Oregone]

7. And if they all pay more, charge more, and pollute the same amount...

how much have you really accomplished at the end of the day (other than a more burdened consumer class)?

Consumption taxes don't always limit consumption

[lapfog_1]

8. Depends on what is taxed.

If only the goods that were made with a great deal of pollution were taxed (as Sarkozy is proposing), and goods that are produced without all the pollution are NOT taxed, then where is this "consumption tax" that you speak of. This isn't a sales tax placed on every item, but a tax on imports from countries that don't curb CO2 emissions.

[Oregone]

11. It also hits consumers at the pump.

Dont forget that. I just don't see it as much of anything that really is focused on the environment. Id rather see firm caps put in place instead of tax on infinite consumption

[JDPriestly]

14. Yes, this is essentially a tariff according to Thom Hartmann.

[JDPriestly]

4. It is a way to boost the French economy and make French-manufactured

products more competitive. The French use a lot of nuclear energy. The Germans use other alternative energy. The use of carbon fuels has to be made more expensive in order to encourage people to switch to other fuels. We have to bite the bullet for our environment.

[Statistical]

9. +1 that is all it is. It is a hidden import tax that doesn't violate WTO.

Technically other countries in Europe could avoid the tax by spending billions to build out nuclear power but they won't.


So it gives French companies a competitive advantage and helps save French jobs.

[JDPriestly]

13. Other countries like Germany are increasingly using other forms

of alternative energy. Germany uses a lot of solar power. And let me tell you, having lived there, that makes me believe that a dark and dreary climate is no bar to the successful use of solar power. Germany has no oil of its own. I believe there is coal. Germans have opposed the use of nuclear power very consistently. Chernobyl did not increase non-French European readiness to trust nuclear plants. Windmills and bio-fuels are also used in Europe. I believe that alternative energy is much more popular there than here. We are way behind.

[Statistical]

16. more is not sufficient.

France generates 90% of it's electrical power from no emission sources.

Germany a mere 10%. Even if Germany led the way in green energy it would be a a couple generations before it caught up to France in so that it's product's electrical cost wouldn't have a higher burden in terms of carbon tax.

Since no other country even come close to France in terms of carbon free energy sources the carbon tax suddenly makes every good produced outside France more expensive.

[MH1]

21. From an environmental standpoint, isn't your last statement

the way it should be?

I'm not thrilled with nuclear power as the "low-carbon" solution because of its other issues. But setting that aside to discuss the economic principle...

Wouldn't it be better if economic advantages applied to products that were made with less climate impact?

[Xenotime]

17. Don't you want to protect the environment?

[Oregone]

18. Yeah, but allowing infinite pollution wont help

Taxing consumption isn't guaranteed to reduce it

[omega minimo]

2. Heard Thom talk about that. Thanks for posting. K/Recced

[girl gone mad]

10. A carbon tax is 1,000,000,000,000 x better than the cap and trade..

bullshit. Even the man who invented cap and trade thinks it won't work.

[Oregone]

12. I don't understand how anyone can think this

A carbon tax allows an infinite amount of pollution, as long as the companies are willing to pay for the price of production.

Cap and trade traditionally (not with offsets) creates a firm ceiling that cannot be exhausted, and lets the market determine the price of production (which will be higher than the a tax, since its a limited commodity. Hence, it will spur more innovation).

In both scenarios, companies pay more to pollute. With a tax, its infinite. With a cap, its, well, capped.

[MH1]

20. In competitive markets, a carbon tax will incentivize reduction in pollution

as well as reducing overall demand by raising the price of goods.

Of course, not all major industries have truly competitive markets, so the first point may fail there. (I don't claim to be an expert, just aware of the general principles).

The problem with the second point is that when the price of necessities is impacted, that hurts the poor. But I don't see how cap-and-trade will be different in that respect - if the cap is based on actually reducing pollution (which is not guaranteed - a major drawback of cap-and-trade), then it will raise costs, too.

At this point I am happy that Sarkozy is doing something. Rather than arguing that anthropogenic climate change is a myth or that France shouldn't do anything until a list of other countries does enough. Which seems to be where too many policy makers are stuck.

[Statistical]

19. Why?

A tax is simply uncap and pollute.

At least with cap and trade the CAP is set by govt. The amount of pollution is fixed. Then the govt lowers the cap each year.

With a tax given a profitable enough industry pollution can rise.

Please explain how unlimited tax & pollute is better than cap & trade.

[muriel_volestrangler]

15. It may not make that much difference at that level

Electricity would not be subject to the tax, however. France generates most of its electricity via nuclear power, which doesn't emit greenhouse gases.

The tax would add euro0.045 to each liter of diesel, and euro0.04 cents to each liter of gasoline or kilowatt of natural gas consumed, Sarkozy said, adding that the tax would be raised gradually.

http://www.newsday.com/business/france-s-sarkozy-urges-carbon-tax-1.1435160

Current French prices are roughly €1.00 for diesel, €1.22 for gasoline (source: http://www.prix-carburants.gouv.fr/ , picking a farily central department and the cheaper prices). So 4.5% or less added to the price.

[omega minimo]

22. Important story

:kick: