Can someone help me again to offset a wingnut healthcare argument?

[intheflow]

I'm sorry I have to ask this and can't just read the bill itself and understand, but the legalese makes my eyes glaze over. But I truly want to shut this guy up. He demanded to know where is said no coverage for illegal immigrants, and I of course sent him to Section 246 on page 143. He responded that that clause only applies under Subtitle C of Title II, but there's nothing forbidding it under Title II, Subtitle B regarding the public option. And he's right insofar as I can read before my eyes glaze over: the language on page 143 specifically states that it's applicable under that Subtitle, and does not say it is applicable throughout the entire plan.

I'm sure he's wrong. I, personally, want healthcare for everyone within our borders, legally here or not, since disease knows no citizen status and be spread from undocumented people to legal citizens.

But please, is there something I'm missing here? Is there a clause elsewhere in the document that addresses his concern specifically? And again, my deep apologies for not being able to sift through the legalese myself. I'm sure some here will assume I'm a freeper here to promote more of their bullshit, but my interest truly is to destroy all their pitiful, racist arguments.

Thanks in advance for your help! :hi:

[mdmc]

1. Just tell him it is a super secret socialist reform bill

It looks like a windfall for the corporations, but once it is passed we will all get subscriptions to The Daily Worker!

Tell him it makes illegals legal, therefore they can get health care.

ps- sorry for the lack of help

[intheflow]

5. No worries!

What I want to tell him is "STFU, IDIOT!!!!! YOU'RE A MORAN AND YOU LIE!!!" But for all that I disagree with him on everything political, he is actually working very hard to keep debate on this topic civil, so I really don't want to flame him. I want to smother him in kindness as I also smother him with facts. :)

[Pab Sungenis]

2. Section 246 applies to the entire bill.

Its scope is act-wide.

[intheflow]

9. That seems intuitive, but the language does not support that conclusion.

This is what it says:

Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.

If it applies to the entire bill, why put in language stating it's only applicable to this one subtitle?

[notesdev]

3. I read the whole thing

There's nothing in there at all that would prevent illegals from getting care.

[Zorra]

7. There's nothing in the bill that would prevent me from robbing banks.

That doesn't make it legal for me to rob banks.

[notesdev]

21. Funny you should mention that

I'm pretty sure there are laws against robbing banks, but here we are in 2009 and there's been all sorts of bank robbing going on (by the people who run them).

If there's a law against something, but it is not enforced, is that something effectively illegal or not?

Maybe the fact that there's really no answer to that question that can be relied upon is at the root of the problem.

[Warren Stupidity]

4. What should we do with an illegal immigrant that has appendicitis?

Help me understand the rightwing view on this burning issue better.

[intheflow]

6. Warren, your screen name says it all.

We are in a war on stupidity. Just as they don't understand that diseases are communicable and therefore transferred between humans legally in this country or not, they also fail to grasp that uninsured people cost us lots more money when they (we, I) have to go to the emergency room for things like burst appendixes instead of preventive surgery. We don't call them ignorant for nothing!

[Bigmack]

12. Yes....

If you ask them "What do you do with a woman who has been hit by a car... You check her purse, and she has no US ID on her. Probably "illegal". Do you just let her die?'

If they answer "yes", you can call them unbelievably cruel assholes and you need not waste another word on them. If they say "no... treat her", then they're advocating medical care for "illegal" immigrants.

Them's the choices.

The "no care for illegals" crowd also needs to know that a local clinic that would treat all comers might keep a cut finger that needs stitches from turning into a life-threatening, raging infection that could turn into a very expensive ER and hospital stay.

Or maybe they'd just let them die, too.

[d_r]

20. I tried it with abortion

I said that if an illegal alien couldn't get adequate prenatal care, and then miscarried, wouldn't that be just as bad as an abortion that you caused because you were afraid your taxes would go to someone else? They said no, because no one should get pregnant in the first place if they can't afford health care, and women who have abortions are just making a selfish choice so that has nothing do with a miscarriage caused by lack of medical care.

To me the cognitive dissonance is amazing.

[TxRider]

8. I would start by telling him

He's looking at a bill that is not going to be the one passed...

It hasn't been written yet.

[intheflow]

10. Good one!

Thanks for a very reasonable talking point!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

11. The public option is NOT free health care

That's the part that the wing nuts are missing. It will have premiums.

The wing nuts are confusing two issues:

1) The obligation (which exists now) of hospitals to provide charity care in their emergency rooms.

2) The eligibility of illegal immigrants for government programs. They're not eligible, period. All those right-wing radio spiels about illegal immigrants coming here to live on welfare--they're NOT ELIGIBLE and would probably be turned in to the INS if they tried to apply.

[intheflow]

16. Ding-Ding-Ding!!

We have a winner! You are my hero, Lydia, for making the argument in little, easy-to-undertand words that the wingnut can understand. :patriot:


(And you get an A for translating legalese for me! :thumbsup:)

[On the Road]

19. Bingo -- That's Got to be It

The whole argument never made sense to me, and the passage they referred to was completely silent on the subject.

The public option is insurance for people who qualify for and purchase it. That would not apply to illegal aliens.

As for treating people without insurance, as far as I know the bill does not change that. Except it will reduce the number of those situations.

[Toucano]

13. Congressional Research Service Report

"To be eligible for the credits under §242 of H.R. 3200, individuals must be lawfully present in a
state in the United States, but generally not in the United States temporarily (i.e.,
nonimmigrants). Nonimmigrants—that is, foreign nationals who are admitted to the United
States for a specified period of time and a specific purpose—are “lawfully present,” but most,
with exceptions noted below, would be ineligible for the credits under H.R. 3200. The exceptions
for nonimmigrants who could obtain credits under H.R. 3200 would be trafficking victims, crime
victims, fiancées of U.S. citizens, and those who have had applications for legal permanent
residence (LPR) status pending for three years; these individuals are likely to become LPRs (i.e.,
immigrants) and remain in the United States permanently. Furthermore, §246 would bar
unauthorized aliens from receiving any premium or cost-sharing credit."

"Some have expressed concerns that since H.R. 3200 does not contain a mechanism to verify
immigration status, the prohibitions on certain noncitizens (e.g, nonimmigrants and unauthorized
aliens) receiving the credits may not be enforced. However, others note that under §142(a)(3) of
the bill, it is the responsibility of the Health Choices Commissioner (Commissioner) to administer
the “individual affordability credits under subtitle C of title II, including determination of
eligibility for such credits.” Thus, it appears, absent of a provision in the bill specifying the
verification procedure, that the Commissioner would be responsible for determining a mechanism
to verify the eligibility of noncitizens for the credits."

[Toucano]

14. Link to Congressional Research Service Report

www.cis.org/articles/2009/CRS_Report_on_HR3200.pdf

[intheflow]

17. Thank, you!

I was just going to ask for the link, but obviously you're right on top of things. :)

[csziggy]

15. Here is more info - including from the Wall Street Journal

It is hard to evaluate a bill which is not yet written. HR3200, which is the one most often referred to by the right wing nuts is only one of the bills under consideration. Obama's proposals are not complete. The Kaiser Family Foundation has a tool to compare all the bills passed out of the House and Senate Committees side by side - see the link below.

No free health care for illegal immigrants in the health bill

<SNIP>

One of its most bizarre claims is the one about free health care for noncitizens, "illegal or not."

We read the bill and its legislative summary, and could find nothing about free health care for anyone, much less noncitizens.

To confirm our examination, we turned to Jennifer Tolbert, an independent health care analyst at the Kaiser Family Foundation, a nonpartisan foundation that studies health care reform. Tolbert has read and analyzed all the major health proposals, including those of the Republicans, and the foundation provides point-by-point analyses of the plans on its Web site (http://www.kff.org/healthreform/sidebyside.cfm).

"No one's provided with free health care. That's ridiculous," she said.

<SNIP>

The section says nothing about "non-US citizens" or immigrants, legal or otherwise. In fact, the legislation specifically states that "undocumented aliens" will not be eligible for credits to help them buy health insurance, in Section 246 on page 143.

The bottom line here is the e-mail is making things up. The bill does not say anything close to "All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free health care services." We rate this chain e-mail statement Pants on Fire!


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jul/30/chain-email/no-free-health-care-illegal-immigrants-health-bill/

Impact on Illegal Immigrants Is Left Uncertain in Proposals

By ELIZABETH WILLIAMSON

The insistence from President Barack Obama that a health-care overhaul wouldn't insure illegal immigrants was greeted by a shout of "You lie!" from Republican Rep. Joe Wilson of South Carolina. But the White House and Democrats in Congress don't agree on how the plan should exclude illegal immigrants, suggesting the truth of the matter is more complicated than indicated by either man. Democratic and Republican leaders all say illegal immigrants shouldn't receive government-funded insurance in any new health legislation, just as they are banned from receiving Medicare or nonemergency Medicaid. But in an exchange Thursday night clarifying the president's position in the aftermath of Mr. Wilson's outburst, White House aides said Mr. Obama's health plan would restrict illegal immigrants' access beyond what congressional Democrats have proposed.

According to an analysis last month by the Congressional Research Service, Congress's nonpartisan research body, the House version of an overhaul that was passed over the summer excludes illegal immigrants from a requirement that most uninsured people either purchase insurance or pay a tax. The House bill also prevents illegal immigrants from receiving government payments for "affordability credits" that would defray the cost of private insurance purchased on an insurance exchange, a marketplace designed to lower costs. But it doesn't bar them from participating in the exchange. Mr. Obama's health plan goes further: it would exclude illegal immigrants not only from federal credits that would save them money on health insurance but also from the exchange, White House aides said Thursday.

More: http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB125263193562301883.html

[whyverne]

18. What's the motive?

We were all raised on cop shows. And they always ask, what's the motive?

Why in the hell would the President want to kill off American senior citizens yet give free health care to illegals?

It's just stupid and makes no sense. Illegals can't vote. Unless you want to make the case that the President and most of the Democratic legislators are freaking psychopaths.

On the other hand the motive of the Republican's opposition is blatant. Money. More money for the elite.

[Lasher]

22. Here's a good writeup by Politifact

Joe Wilson of South Carolina said Obama lied, but he didn't

When we look at all of this evidence, it seems that health reform leaves in place the status quo on illegal immigration, and certainly does not provide any new benefits particularly for illegal immigrants. We hope to look at this issue more in the days ahead, because some hospitals are concerned about recouping their costs for treating illegal immigrants, and we're curious to know more about that problem and how it might or might not be solved by reform.

The best argument that we find that health reform would help illegal immigrants is that some might be able to purchase the public option — if it passes, and it might not — on the new health insurance exchange. They would purchase that at full cost. Obama said, "The reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally," which Wilson said was a "lie." Actually, Obama can make a pretty thorough case that reform doesn't apply to those here illegally. We don't find the public option argument enough to make the case that Obama "lied." We rate Wilson's statement False.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/sep/09/joe-wilson/joe-wilson-south-carolina-said-obama-lied-he-didnt/

We are already paying for illegal aliens' health care. For example, Legislation was passed in 2003 to take money out of Medicare for this purpose over the following 4 years. This is an important point to remember if we are to defeat those who claim that proposed health insurance reforms would cause such liabilities.