Joe Wilson "wins". White House caves on "illegals", our premiums to be higher

[CocoaBeachCoco]

The White House on Friday said it would bar illegal immigrants from purchasing health coverage through a proposed insurance marketplace. But the administration also said that the federal government would continue to require hospitals to provide emergency treatment to illegal immigrants at taxpayer expense.

The question of how illegal immigrants would fare under a proposed overhaul of the health care system came into sharp focus on Wednesday during President Obama’s speech to Congress. Representative Joe Wilson, Republican of South Carolina, shouted “You lie!” when Mr. Obama insisted that his health care overhaul would not insure illegal immigrants.

And the Obama administration’s determination to show that immigrants will not benefit from the health system overhaul highlighted the extraordinary sensitivity to the issue at a time when lawmakers still remain divided over whether the government should pay to provide health coverage for all American citizens.

A White House spokesman, Reid Cherlin, said that the president’s proposals would bar illegal immigrants from purchasing private insurance through the new government marketplace, known as an exchange, and that verification of immigration status would be required for anyone seeking to purchase coverage. snip

Many illegal immigrants must now seek medical treatment in emergency rooms, which by law cannot turn them away. In recent years, the federal government has spent $250 million a year to reimburse hospitals for bills that go unpaid as a result. The White House said those reimbursements would continue.

It will probably also make average premiums higher, since the exchanges will be left with a smaller risk pool and there’s no real reason to believe that the subset of undocumented immigrants who are capable of affording an unsubsidized insurance policy are below-average health risks.

http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/illegal-immigrants-could-not-buy-insurance-on-new-exchange-white-house-says/?hp

[Roland99]

1. In the wake of Obama's speech we have...

1) Insurance stocks going up.
2) Single-Payer thrown under the bus as "too radical".
3) Dems caving into the MINORITY party that has failed to negotiate anything in good faith.



Tell me, how is this reform?!?!

[CocoaBeachCoco]

2. I worry about the dreadful "Minuteman" vigilantes renewing violence against "illegals" too!

[DJ13]

4. Just more winnin' for the whiner party

Are we sure we won last November?

[HughMoran]

8. Single payer was never on the table

Do you live in a bubble or something?

[CocoaBeachCoco]

15. And why is that?

[HughMoran]

22. Snowballs chance in hell of passage?

...that's my best guess. What's yours?

[Enrique]

3. NPR had a story on Medicaid requiring documentation

to prevent illegal immigrants from abusing Medicaid. It turned out that there were hardly any such immigrants abusing Medicaid, but the new regulations did prevent so many U.S. citizens from enrolling in Medicaid (because for whatever reason they couldn't come up with the documentation) that they ended up repealing the new regulations.

[Roland99]

18. To me, logic would dictate that an illegal resident wouldn't want to risk getting caught...

by applying for something like Medicaid. Or even a driver's license.

Just remain hidden as much as possible.



Call me crazy....

[Bluerthanblue]

42. if they have a child born in the US- it would be LEGAL for the child to

get coverage like SCHIP- (the child would be a legal citizen) but in order for them to get it, the parent's info would have to be exposed. Some undocumented immigrants have been here many years, and have settled in- they may be referred to programs like schip by their public schools. I'm wondering if this provision would make it impossible for those who are legally eligible (born in the USA) to have access, because they are the children of undocumented workers??

[the blues]

5. K & R -- although someone neutralized my vote

Wilson et al. put the "jerk" in knee-jerk.

[alarimer]

67. There are a lot of jerks among so-called "liberals"

Or maybe they are trolls.

In any case, criticizing Obama for any reason is enough to earn an unrecommend, the main reason I do not like this system.

[HughMoran]

6. What do you propose? Shooting them on sight or carding all citizens while they are bleeding?

How very right-wing of you to post this.

[CocoaBeachCoco]

11. You are not reading correctly, Mr. Moran. I don't begrudge "illegals" health care

Is there some sort of agenda you have to claim I am right wing? very odd, whoever you are dear.

[Roland99]

16. You'd be best served to employ the Ignore feature on the moran.

Works wonders for weeding out the mentally unhinged.

[CocoaBeachCoco]

21. Ha thank you for that tip!

[HughMoran]

26. Et tu?

48 posts and ignoring people who you can't deal with already?

Wimp.

[Roland99]

27. .

:toast:

[HughMoran]

32. .

Never mind - you're on ignore and no great loss.

[HughMoran]

23. Good idea

You've been an ass hole the past 2 days.

[imdjh]

17. You have never been to a hospital have you?

"....carding all citizens while they are bleeding?"



That is precisely what they do.

[HughMoran]

24. No, they don't actually. I am in the inner city and that doesn't happen

So, not sure what you're saying.

[imdjh]

34. They ask you for your ID, insurance card, sign this, sign that.....

I have had them do all this in the ER, and then come up to my room for additional paperwork.

[earthside]

7. Not a "Cave"

President Obama said illegal aliens would not be covered.

Wilson did not "win" -- his lie is still a lie.

[nini]

10. you beat me to it

Obama said they would not benefit from the government plans so this is nothing different.

[CocoaBeachCoco]

12. Then why the big hooplah about announcing this?

If it was not an issue? Just because some crazy man yelled at us?

[nini]

20. what is different here than what he said the other night?

?

[Luminous Animal]

33. Your title is patently dishonest.

The health insurance reform bills in play already put restrictions on "illegal" immigrants accessing insurance through a government formed system. I would suspect, since the speech was a broad overview of policy and not specifics, questions were asked by a journalist spurred on by Wilson's outburst, and those question was answered and then an article was written.

This is called news reporting.

[emulatorloo]

41. Because it needs reiterating that "Healthcare proposals give illegals coverage" lie is a lie n/t

[theoldman]

9. Obama had no choice but to say that illegal aliens would not be covered.

How much of that $250 million is spent on illegal aliens? If there are 12 million illegal aliens that comes to about $20 each. Not very much considering on how much we save by their cheap labor. I would bet that most of the money is spent on American citizens.

[sohndrsmith]

49. Um... what's the $20 for? If I can get health care for $20, then where do I

sign up for non-citizenship? (Yes, I'm being sarcastic).

An interesting read:
http://www.fachc.org/pdf/mig_Data%20on%20farmworkers,%20immigrants,%20Uninsurance,%20ER%20and%20CHW.pdf

[Hello_Kitty]

59. "We" don't save anything by their cheap labor.

Their greedy employers do.

[asdjrocky]

13. "illegals" very enlightened.

[CocoaBeachCoco]

14. Oh my dear asdrocky it's in quotes because it seems to be a favorite here

how a human being can be considered illegal pains me.

[asdjrocky]

28. Thank you. I personally hate the term.

As does an entire group of people.

[imdjh]

19. God forbid. Next someone will call them foreigners.

[asdjrocky]

30. Have you ever broken a law?

Then from now on I'll just call you an illegal.

[imdjh]

36. Citizenship is not a technicality.

Perhaps you aren't aware of the reason that Amy Goodman insists on gurgling "undocumented aliens" instead of gurgling "illegal aliens": it's deliberate. It's a deliberate effort to make illegal aliens sound like their status is nothing more than a technicality, an oversight, a piece of paperwork absentmindedly not completed, a trivial matter.

So either you are part of the deliberate effort, or you are so dim as to not be aware of it. Which is it?

[asdjrocky]

38. Neither, I'm someone that sees people as people.

I know it's a tough concept for you, but illegal is not a noun.

Are you too dim to understand that? Do you understand grammar and the English language? Feel free to pm me for pointers, I'd be happy to help.

Now have a nice day you rude little person.

[imdjh]

50. Your complaint wasn't that it isn't a noun, it was that it isn't "enlightened". Actually it's lingo.

Each area of interest has words with special meaning or use to that discussion. Now have a nice day you affected little person.

[Chef Eric]

55. It's not enlightened because it marginalizes people through the improper use of language.

Do you often use nouns as adjectives and adjectives as nouns?

Do you think it is acceptable to call the Democratic Party the "Democrat Party"?

Do you think it is acceptable to call Jewish lawyers "Jew lawyers"?

[imdjh]

57. Nouning adjectives and verbs is annoying.

But I surrendered in that cause years ago, as have most people.

At the top of my list was "gays" rather than "gay people/men/women". That battle was lost from within and without.

Do you think it is acceptable to call the Democratic Party the "Democrat Party"?

Fail.

Democratic Party is a proper noun, and to call it the Democrat Party is as deliberate a shot as to call the GOP the Fuckublican Party.

Do you think it is acceptable to call Jewish lawyers "Jew lawyers"?

Fail.

"Jew Lawyers" is an established pejorative way of saying an otherwise factual (assuming the persons in question are actually Jews) but irrelevant designation with the intent to offend.

Illegals is merely a shortened version of "illegal aliens" or "illegal immigrants". It is jargon, not hate speech (no matter how hard you try to make it out to be).

[Chef Eric]

71. I didn't suggest "illegals" was hate speech. I suggested it was offensive.

And who are you to say it's not offensive? Just because it's not offensive to you doesn't mean that it's not offensive to other people.

[imdjh]

72. Actually you said it marginalizes people and is a misuse of the language.

Marginalize is a fail because we are talking about noncitizens. Noncitizens aren't supposed to have power in a country that is not theirs.

Misuse of the language is a fail because it isn't misusing the language, it's jargon.

And now you want to claim it's offensive. While it's probably true that someone out there is offended by references to the sky being blue, trying to make "illegals" into a socially unacceptable term or epithet is an effort to silence through social pressure the demand for border enforcement and deportation of illegal aliens. While it's a functional tool, and is obviously working in some sectors, no one is under the obligation to buy into it.

[Chef Eric]

54. Amy Goodman has nothing to do with this. Nobody here is defending the term "undocumented aliens."

Why are you changing the subject?

[Ikonoklast]

25. What would change, exactly?

Non citizen aliens get emergency health care, as mandated by law, right now, along with anyone else seeking care in an emergency setting.

The money to cover that is paid to the hospitals in re-imbursement is happening, right now.


Nothing would change as far as insurance premiums or taxes in this case.

It is a flawed conclusion derived from a flawed premise. The author of this piece is conflating health care, with health care insurance, and who is eligible for each.

Non-citizen aliens will not be able to participate in our national health care plan. Period. But they can, and will, still be able to get emergency health care services.

Or we could just let them die on the doorstep of the hospital, and save a pittance in terms of tax dollars.

[Quiet_Dem_Mom]

29. Mexico's health care lures Americans: Sept 1 USA Today article

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009-08-31-mexico-health-care_N.htm

MEXICO CITY — It sounds almost too good to be true: a health care plan with no limits, no deductibles, free medicines, tests, X-rays, eyeglasses, even dental work — all for a flat fee of $250 or less a year.

To get it, you just have to move to Mexico.

****

It's unclear how many Americans use IMSS, but with between 40,000 and 80,000 U.S. retirees living in Mexico, the number probably runs "well into the thousands," said David Warner, a public policy professor at the University of Texas.

***

Sounds like the folks from Mexico have got one-up on the Americans as far as health care goes. Enough to get 40,000 to 80,000 folks to move to Mexico to take advantage of it. It also sounds like Mexico is more concerned about absorbing too many Americans into their system!

[HysteryDiagnosis]

31. I saw some moderately dehydrated potentially illegal aliens

blowing dust up and down the highways during morning rush hour, it occurred to me that they could have been funded by the Saudis to dust up the air going into the air cleaners of our vehicles in order to cause us to burn more gasoline. I viewed this scenario as a highly dilute form of eco-terrorism... it is entirely possible that I was incorrect to be sure.... maybe.

Fortunately I came out of this delusional form of thinking shortly thereafter... but just the same, if you consider lung conditions created by the continual inhalation of roadside dirt and debris (they weren't wearing so much as a mask) then you can see that the work provided them by whomever is not work that is going to lead to a very desirable healthspan. Someone in charge should be watching to see that basic safety standards are applied on the job regardless of who is doing the work.

Admittedly, this post has little if anything to do with the OP.

[customerserviceguy]

35. While I question the conclusion in the final paragraph

you make the same point I made yesterday, Wilson does "win". He made the story about his outburst, and not about the finer points of the President's speech, and he practically guaranteed that the media will focus on the mechanisms used to make sure that illegal immigrants are excluded from coverage.

As for that last paragraph, I'd guess that as a group, people who do farm labor around chemicals without proper protective equipment are likely to have significant health problems, as would people who do backbreaking labor, as well. I'd guess that a large percentage of illegal immigrants are in those lines of work.

[madville]

37. Am I thinking about this wrong

How many illegal immigrants would purchase health care coverage anyway? They don't pay taxes, they don't have a SS#, they don't contribute to Medicare. Why would they buy insurance through an exchange when they can get care for free. Many states have free clinics set up that illegal immigrants can go to for routine care as well. I just don't see most of them buying insurance plans even if they were available.

[emulatorloo]

40. Strange Republican/Wingnut FantasyLand, basically. n/t

[Garbo 2004]

45. Social Security Administration estimates 3/4 of "other than legal immigrants" pay payroll taxes.

That includes Social Security & Medicare, programs whose benefits they are not eligible to receive. 2005 NYT article: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html

[Luminous Animal]

46. Actually most do have SS#.

The US Treasury is pretty picky about getting their due. Now the SSNs are fraudulently obtained (someone may be using yours) but the taxes are collected and paid to both state and U.S. gov, nonetheless. Not only are they paying FICA, federal & state income tax, sales taxes, excise taxes, tolls, and user fees, they are not getting anything back in tax refunds or credits or SS & Medical benefits, because undocumented workers, while most qualify for the earned income credit, don't file their 1040s and they won't put in a claim for those benefits for which they qualify or when they retire.

All those millions of folks picking your vegetables, slaughtering & packing your meat, and cleaning your Walmart pay taxes.

[emulatorloo]

39. "White House 'Caves'"? White House position has not changed -- There is no coverage for illegals in

the healthcare proposals. Never has been. Nothing has changed.

How is that "Caving"?

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. The bills did not allow for illegals to get into the program BEFORE

Wilson, so do 'splain to me who is status ante caving?

[madrchsod]

44. joe wilson voted for "illegals" to have government healthcare...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4055654

looks like old joe has some explaining to do...

[Bluerthanblue]

47. Your last paragraph is NOT at your link-???

am i just blind?

I've read it over and over, and cannot find the last paragraph which you cite in bolded font.

:shrug:

[JTFrog]

53. Lifted from here:

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/09/baucus-conrad-team-up-to-surrender-to-joe-wilson.php

[Bluerthanblue]

56. thanks!-

I'm not crazy- :)
(couldn't find it even among the comments on the OP's link)
:hi:

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pampango]

51. "I don't care if it cost me lots more money, I don't want 'those people' getting

health care." - Joe Wilson (who should be honorary chair of FAIR)

[Hello_Kitty]

60. Joe Wilson is a dick but you should be the honorary chair of the Chamber of Commerce

The way you peddle their cheap labor agenda on this board.

[pampango]

61. Thanks for the offer, Hello Kitty, but I could only accept if the Chamber agreed to my "European"

inclinations. The US Chamber, I imagine, does not look fondly on national health care, progressive taxation, effective social safety nets and market regulation. I think Joe is more suited for the gig I suggested. Indeed, FAIR would welcome him and he would be honored.

[TicketyBoo]

52. This is NOT news.

As others have pointed out, the way illegal immigrants (and I see nothing wrong with the term "illegal" since they are not here legally) will receive medical treatment won't change one iota from the way it's handled now.

This is not "caving" by the White House.

Our premiums won't be as high as they will if we don't do anything and continue to allow insurance companies to raise premiums by 30% each year.

My view on medical treatment for illegals is this … give them the best treatment available and then deport them. If this makes them scared to go for medical treatment, tough luck. They shouldn't be here in the first place.

[G_j]

58. illegal is an adjective,

not a noun.

:think:

[TicketyBoo]

62. Well…

[G_j]

64. it's not about grammer

it's about RW slurs

[TicketyBoo]

65. Baloney.

The term is simply shorthand for "illegal immigrants." It's not a denigrating term, in my opinion. Not at all. Political correctness run amok. (What shall we call them, then, "Uninvited guests"? In a pig's eye!)

And it's "grammar" not "grammer." (My son's term for me.)

[G_j]

66. what does your opinion have to do

with RW memes? That doesn't change the fact that they use that term to dehumanize people.
And THAT is why they use the term as a noun.


but you're right, it is 'grammar'

thanks

[TicketyBoo]

68. Not to me it isn't.

It is simply a shorthand term for "illegal immigrant." I can see the term "alien" as possibly objectionable. (Sounds like they're from outer space, maybe.) But "illegals" is simply a shorthand term, and, in fact, it sounds a bit more accurate than "illegal immigrant." (Maybe it's an age thing? To me, immigration has, until recently, meant LEGAL immigration, and an "immigrant" has been someone who has come to this country legally.)

I do not in any way denigrate the humanity of any person anywhere on the planet. I do believe that we have borders for a reason, and I believe that yet another round of amnesty for whoever-you-want-to-call our uninvited and undocumented residents devalues the process by which many people LEGALLY immigrate to our country, abiding by our laws. It's disrespectful of those who choose to follow the rules to grant amnesty to those who are here illegally, and amnesty simply encourages still more illegal immigration (as has become abundantly clear, unfortunately).

[G_j]

69. be my guest

not telling you what to do, just pointing out some context.

go right ahead and be yourself :eyes:


eom

[TicketyBoo]

70. ?

I need your permission for that?

I can't be anyone else. So thanks for your benevolent permission. I guess?

[lame54]

63. That should make Joe happy - after all he voted for it...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6531706&mesg_id=6531706