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Mass. Uninsured Rate Has Gone UP Under Mandated Private Coverage Rule

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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 03:12 PM
Original message
Mass. Uninsured Rate Has Gone UP Under Mandated Private Coverage Rule
Here is another fact to add to your list of health care talking points.

Today, I received this alarming email from Physicians For a National Health Plan:

Significantly, in Massachusetts, where an individual-mandate health reform law, much like what President Obama is proposing on a national scale, was passed in 2006, at least 352,000 people, or 5.5 percent of the population, remained uninsured in 2008. That number was actually (but non-significantly) higher than the number of uninsured in 2007, before strict enforcement of the individual and employer mandates went into effect.

"The legislation championed by the president and the congressional leadership is a virtual clone of the Massachusetts plan," said Dr. Steffie Woolhandler, professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School and co-founder of Physicians for a National Health Program (PNHP). "Today's numbers show that plans that require people to buy private insurance don't work. Obama's plan to replicate Massachusetts' reform nationally risks failure on a massive scale."


Keep in mind that Massachusetts has a relatively low percent uninsured. I live in Texas, which has the highest rate of uninsured in the nation (25%!) despite being the country’s second richest state and the world’s 15th largest economy. If Mass was unable to make mandatory private insurance work, how on earth are the states that really need help going to get by?

Answer: they won’t. Mandatory private insurance is nothing but a scam being run against the American people by private insurers who stand to make a fortune writing policies for healthy young people who will not use their insurance and older, sick folks who will be sold paper only policies that do nothing but save them from paying the fine for being uninsured.

But insurance is insurance.

Ha! An insurance policy with a two to three thousand dollar deductible sold to working class Americans will only be used in the event of a major emergency. People will not seek care for chronic problems like hypertension and diabetes, and they will not get preventive care like check ups and Pap smears. Indeed, if forced to pay a thousand dollars or more for a policy like this, folks will be even less likely to get necessary care since they will be $1000 poorer.

Universal healthcare in countries like France and Canada work--i.e. they do not break the national budget---because they are designed to encourage folks to get necessary preventive care. That makes them healthier so they are less likely to require expensive emergency care. Most of the world's industrialized countries pay less than half per person for health care (compared to the U.S.) and achieve better results in measures of public health like life expectancy and infant mortality. That is the benefit of prevention. A sane universal health plan emphasizes prevention. In contrast, our insane Congress's health plan emphasizes insurance company profits.

What about managed care plans? HMOs have to pay for well care.

Technically, managed care plans are required to accept all comer and pay for every type of care, including preventive services (Pap smears, immunizations). In fact, these plans have made an art of denying members promised care. They do this by contracting with a tiny numbers of health care providers. An insurance policy written by a company with an “exclusive provider network” will not be used if the insurer has no doctors in your area. Note that some plans are trying to get Congress to allow them to sell across state lines. Again, these are likely to be “affordable” (if you have an extra one to two thousand dollars floating around) but worthless, since the out of state company may have no doctors, hospitals and ancillary medical facilities signed up in your area. And even if there are a handful of local providers, they are likely to be swamped---which leads to the "not accepting new ___members" problem. Or, there may be one specialist to cover a three hundred mile area (and how many of us can take a day off work and travel to another city to see a doctor?).

But Joe’s Fly By Night HMO swears that I will be able to see my own doctor!

Yeah, and I know a bridge I can sell you. Cheap. Insurers are notorious for promising folks the sun and the moon to get them to sign up. They will lie and say that doctors who do not accept their insurance accept it. They will tell you that you can always get a referral out of network for emergencies, without telling you that their definition of an emergency is not the same as yours. These roadblocks are thrown up in order to encourage the people who actually need health care to seek insurance elsewhere, while the insurer keeps collecting premiums from those who never require medical care. Reverse cherry picking, if you will.

But at least the mandatory private insurance plan will net a lot of revenue for the federal government from the folks who elect to pay the fine rather than purchasing insurance.

As I documented in a recent journal, Congress is actually counting upon millions of Americans remaining uninsured to cover the premiums which the federal government will have to pay for those who decide they do want coverage and who happen to be poor enough that the feds will have to supply that coverage. Now, what kind of “universal” health plan depends upon lack of universal coverage in order to stay solvent? Answer: the Mass plan. And boy, were they shocked in Massachusetts to discover that people were not kidding when they said that they wanted health insurance coverage.

The Massachusetts plan, passed in 2006 with the support of then-Governor Mitt Romney, is stumbling financially because far more people need help than Romney originally estimated; the state now believes there may be as many as 650,000 uninsured, not 400,000. And there's a shortfall in funds to cover the subsidies those people have been promised. The uninsured have come out of the proverbial woodwork to buy insurance rather than face tax penalties, and since many of them cannot afford coverage, the state is on the hook for their premiums. "Romney won acceptability by obscuring how much money is really needed in the absence of genuine cost controls," says Boston University professor Alan Sager, who specializes in healthcare costs.

Massachusetts had budgeted $472 million for the current fiscal year, but it needs an additional appropriation of $150 million, which will come out of the public purse. Next year could be bad too. When the law was passed, a legislative conference committee projected that $725 million would be needed for subsidies in the third year. Now it looks like the program will need $869 million to cover premiums for those who can't afford them. "I wouldn't characterize the situation as dire," says Jon Kingsdale, chief executive of the Commonwealth Health Insurance Connector Authority, which administers the program. "The affordability issue has always been there." Just last Thursday Leslie Kirwan, state budget director and chair of the authority, said the program next year will cost "significantly" more than $869 million. Money counted on by the law's architects has not materialized. Lawmakers had counted on getting about $500 million to $600 million from the state's free-care pool, which paid hospitals to treat the poor. The theory was that more insured residents would mean less need for free care. But apparently people are still uninsured and need care, so that money is not available. And assessments from employers are not adequate either. Instead of requiring them to cover their workers, the law allows employers to pay $295 per employee per year to help cover the uninsured. The sum was a compromise to keep employers from fighting a mandate that would have required them to spend upwards of $9,000 a year on real insurance for each employee. The state has collected only $6 million so far. One reason: before he left office, Romney changed the rules so fewer employers would be subject to penalties.


http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080407/lieberman

If "universal health care" bankrupts the federal government (while filling the coffers of private insurers), it will fail. Sane cost containment has to be part of a successful program. Disease prevention is one way to keep costs down. But that takes time. The fastest way to reduce expenses is to cut the inflated overhead associated with private plans. Government run insurance like Medicare operates with a tiny overhead. And when you are talking about health care expenses of $7000/person (on average) for a total of 15% of the GNP, trimming overhead costs by ten to 20% can make a real difference. Which is better? Covering 750 people while paying the private insurers a whopping 25% extra for their CEO salaries? Or covering 1000 people while keeping overhead at the low rate of government programs like Medicare? Before you answer, remember that there is a hidden cost associated with the first option. Since those 250 uninsured folks will eventually get sick and go on Medicare or Medicaid, one way or another we are going to provide them health care. Our choice is give everyone relatively inexpensive care to keep them healthy or wait and give some people extremely costly care to keep them from dying.

I know that people who have been unable to get insurance for pre-existing conditions think that their problems will be solved if the feds just force Blue Cross or United to write then a policy. But Mass, where private insurers have had to cover everyone who was willing to pay for a policy since 1977, proves that this just is not true.

The Massachusetts Health Care Plan, negotiated by former Governor Mitt Romney and the legislature, is proving to be expensive, just as critics warned, with the lowest cost plan costing state residents as much as $9,560 per year in out-of-pocket expenses if they suffer a serious illness.


http://www.progressivestates.org/journalists/532/mass-health-care-plan-proves-costly-to-individual-citizens

How many Americans will be better off if they get sick (and can not work) and have to pay $10,000 out of pocket on top of the premiums they already pay? It is not wonder that sickness is the number one cause of individual bankruptcy in this country.

Even if you are lucky (or unlucky) enough to qualify for federal subsides (meaning you are poor), you may still find health care costs are too high. From the Nation article about Massachusetts above:

All people eligible for the subsidies pay co-payments, which are increasing this year from $5 to $15 for doctor visits. Those whose incomes are above 150 percent of the federal poverty level--about $31,000--also pay premiums, and last week the Connector board approved hikes of 10 percent. The lowest premiums will now range from $39 to $116 a month. "We have closed some of the fiscal gap here, but we have not closed most of it," Kirwan said.


Copayments are designed to keep people from misusing their insurance. The theory is that if you have to pay $15 a visit, you will not go to the doctor just to get your kid free Tylenol. Copayments were not supposed to be high enough to keep people from seeing the doctor for necessary services. But that is how private insurance has used them. Some folks pay as much as $30 just to see their family doctor. Prescriptions also have hefty copayments. So do hospital stays. Mental health benefits are notorious for their whopping patient share. Do the math, and you will see that few people who make less than 150 percent of the federal poverty level ($10,000 for one, $22,000 for a family of four) have extra cash to pay towards copayments. These are folks who can barely afford the $4 prescription service at Wall Mart. And remember that those who live in poverty are more likely to suffer from a whole host of disparity related diseases. If you have a family of four and make $33,000 a year, you may be required to pay an additional $100/month per person to get your "free government healthcare." Old math, new math, no matter what system you use, that adds up to "break the family budget".

Here is a nice summary of the problem which Massachusetts faces:

"We've said from the beginning that the basic problem with the reform is that if you don't restructure the system, it becomes rapidly unaffordable and the commitment to cover people begins to fade," said Dr. David Himmelstein, an associate professor at Harvard Medical School and a founder of Physicians for a National Health Program, which advocates for a government-run health system like Canada's. "We're seeing that begin to happen."


http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/03/26/healthcare_cost_increases_dominate_mass_budget_debate/

Rising costs. Lowered commitment to cover everyone. Those are Massachusetts problems now...and they will be problems for all of us if Congress goes through with its plans to design health care reform to benefit insurance companies rather than citizens.
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. Like I said elsewhere
we are reinventing the wheel with with angles as others have done in the past to arrive at universal care or single payer. This time it is FAILURE that is being searched out, not success or the momentum of progress. The angles will remain, any smoothing doesn't begin much until 2012. Pretty much the model of ways we are meeting inevitable global warming catastrophe.
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BREMPRO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. the lesson of MA is that you can't just add insurance, you need cost controls
I get frustrated with this mono-focus on insurance- this is not the only problem with our system. The MA reform did nothing to control cost of delivery and have suffered from a lack of primary care providers. Read "The Cost Conundrum" and the Dartmouth Atlas study and you will find that the way to lower costs is to model best practices using comparative effectiveness. SURE it would be nice to have single payer, but it's not the magic bullet supporters think it is. Health cost will continue to rise, even with single payer, as long as we have a "fee for service" model that rewards more service- the results of the studies show that more health care is not better health care. There is no excuse for us at DU not to be fully educated about this issue.


http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/06/01/090601fa_fact_gawande

http://www.dartmouthatlas.org/
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Excellent post.
And thank you for the links.
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DaLittle Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #6
30. WONDERFUL MF'n POST! That's WHAT I'm Talk'n Bout! The Facts And The Details Are More Important...
Edited on Sat Sep-12-09 08:41 PM by DaLittle Kitty
than the Quality of the Speaker's ... "Delivery!" This is a capitulation to the Insurance companies pure and simple... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anTW1ZdqswM
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DaLittle Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Kick & Recommend and Then COPY &^ PASTE... Elsewhere!
:)
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #31
44. kick and r
:kick:
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #30
43. You're trying to make me look boring, aren't you.
;)

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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Very very good post. Cannot stop wishing you woul dmake this an OP.
I am so very firmly dommitted to UNIVERSAL SINGLE PAYER HC FOR ALL mainly because the Obama Administration cannot get around to focusing on is correct regualtion and oversight and cost control.

The jobless recovery that has cost this nation eleven trillion and counting and that has mainly benefitted Wall Street to the detriment of Main Street is the prime example.

What does it matter to any of those in power if their are regulations and oversight? The first 700 Billion of TARP payments went out the door without much in the way of provision that the monies even do what the banks said the funds were needed to do - ie allow for making loans to the average person, and average small business etc.

So I ahve lost faith in the notion of allowing the usual players, that is, Admihnistrationappointees and the ususal crowd of insurers (plus some health insurers are jsut separwate divisions of large banks!)

But if people with your philosophy were to be listened to...

Ah but you are not a big time lobbyist, are you?
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. Cost containment models do not work when years of neglect lead to congestive heart failure
Edited on Sat Sep-12-09 07:11 PM by McCamy Taylor
for example, a diagnosis which consumes a disproportionate percentage of Medicare's resources. "Cost containment" as the insurance plans advocate it is about helping the patient who develops CHF die more quickly so that he will use up less resources on end of life care. Prevention would keep that heart healthy---and use the dollars saved from all those healthy hearts to provide the extraordinary care that a very few people would need for trauma or rare diseases.

True story. Years ago, a patient of mine developed lung cancer on top of her COPD. Her pulmonologisat would occasionally tap her malignant effusion so she could breathe. The HMO had a doctor call me to say that they wanted her on hospice and any treatments designed to prolong her life had to stop.

It is episodes like this which sour me to insurance companies and their "cost containment." Too often what we see are insurance reps who mark some patient as easy to screw (i.e. they are not likely to sue) and they find an excuse to deny necessary care. All on the grounds of "cost containment."

An investment in universal cradle to grave insurance with an emphasis on disease prevention that includes a public health policy designed to encourage healthy life style changes is the only way to contain our runaway costs. Under private insurers and their so called managed care, medical costs per person have doubled since Bill Clinton was in office, from 3k to 7 k a year person.
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BREMPRO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. see below:
Edited on Sat Sep-12-09 08:47 PM by BREMPRO
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BREMPRO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. I agree with you but, we are talking about two different things-
I'm talking about comparative effectiveness and models of best practices, such as the Mayo and Cleveland Clinic where they have significantly lower average costs and BETTER outcomes. You are referring to denial of care for cost motive by the insurance companies- which is unconscionable and i agree should not be a part of cost containment. We do need end of life counseling so people can make the CHOICE of how they want to die- hooked up to a respirator, or comfortably at home with family- Sarah "death panel" Palin and the right wing echo chamber put a knife in that plan. Obama has promoted best practices and health and wellness as a part of his reform goals, but it has been drowned out by the contentious ideological debate over public vs. private insurance.

I also agree with you that health, nutrition and wellness programs on the front end of life is a critical component to getting health care costs down. When I was a kid in elementary school we followed President Kennedy's exercise goals (I believe this was instituted after his death by LBJ as a part of "The Great Society") I learned to exercise and take care of my body and have had no major health problems. Today kids don't have these programs and spend too much time in front of a computer and look at the result- extraordinary levels of childhood obesity and diabetes. The long term costs of this neglect could be staggering. I would also like to see the end of corn subsidies that lead to cheap sweeteners that cause addiction and health problems (HFCS) and feed for cheap fast food beef.

I agree that it would be better to have full single payer health care here, but i think a public option would be a good achievable step in that direction now. It took Canada 38 years to institute full national single payer from it's origin as a regional program that evolved in Saskatchewan. They also didn't have the freedom and liberty crowd to deal with.

Have you read The Cost Conundrum" article and the Dartmouth Atlas studies? I'd be interested in your opinion of these as a doctor on the front line of care.
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man4allcats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #32
52. Fortunately for suffering humanity and unlike the OP, I am not a physician,
Edited on Sun Sep-13-09 04:01 PM by man4allcats
but I did read the article entitled The Cost Conundrum and a Dartmouth Atlas study entitled Getting Past Denial — The High Cost of Health Care in the United States published in The New England Journal Of Medicine (I'm assuming that is the Dartmouth study to which you refer). I doubt anyone would argue against best practices and wellness as factors in health care cost reduction. However, the New Yorker article seems to indicate that much if not most of the problem lies with nothing more arcane than a simple and perversely profit driven approach to medicine. The author rightly notes the admirable example of the Mayo Clinic's approach to cost reduction but then later states that:

"In the war over the culture of medicine—the war over whether our country’s anchor model will be Mayo or McAllen—the Mayo model is losing. In the sharpest economic downturn that our health system has faced in half a century, many people in medicine don’t see why they should do the hard work of organizing themselves in ways that reduce waste and improve quality if it means sacrificing revenue." - Emphasis mine -

I confess I don't find it at all difficult to accept the author's contention on this point. Perhaps not most but certainly many clinicians would question change if the motivation for such change is other than profit. To be sure there are egalitarian physicians of noble spirit, some might even say medical realists with long views that see the entire system crashing if change does not come and come soon, such physicians who view medical practice as a calling to heal the sick and reduce suffering to the extent that is humanly possible. Human nature being what it is though, I doubt we can count much on such nobility of purpose for a solution to the health care crisis. As the author notes, we are witnessing a war for the soul of medicine in America - a war that is being played out among patients, doctors who are concerned for the welfare of those patients and doctors who are concerned about maximizing their incomes. The Mayo Clinic experiment might work on a broad scale at some future time when America is perhaps more socially enlightened, but single payer is an experiment already proven to work on a broad scale right now in every industrialized country in the world except the United States. Given the moral imperative of the millions of people in this country today who are either sick or uninsured and at risk and the looming medical economic disaster that awaits us, I really don't think we can afford to wait for social enlightenment.

The earlier mentioned NEJM article is also of interest not only because of its metrics that describe the regional factors affecting costs such as those cited in the New Yorker article; i.e., the Mayo Clinic model vs. McAllen, Texas, but also because of the required disclaimer at the end of the article for coauthor Elliott S. Fisher, M.D., M.P.H which reads:

Dr. Fisher reports receiving grant support from Aetna and consulting, teaching, or speaking fees from Regence Blue Shield, RAND, Kaiser Permanente, the Center for Corporate Innovation, Blue Cross Blue Shield of Montana, and numerous provider organizations and medical associations. No other potential conflict of interest relevant to this article was reported.


Corporate money is too smart to deny that change is needed, but it quite obviously will never say such needed change should take the form of single payer. The stockholders would surely revolt; worse yet, they would sue.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #32
53. it took the feds only 10 years to offer to subsidize 50% cost for any province instituting
Edited on Sun Sep-13-09 04:17 PM by Hannah Bell
a program like saskatchewan's. in legislation.

& corn subsidies are irrelevant to the issue.

& best practices is on-going. unfortunately, it's inter-connected with cost-cutting.
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pundaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
36. Are you sure, the insurance companies PROMISED cost control?
There must be some mistake here, the insurance companies said they'd do better.

Oh no. What if when insurance companies say they'll do better they really mean they'll make more money?
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Blue State Blues Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
3. If you can't aford to buy good insurance ...
you can't afford to have bad insurance.

K&R.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. If it's un-affordable it doesn't matter if it's mandated!
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
5. "Mandatory private insurance is nothing but a scam"---Exactly
It's a transfer of wealth, not a health plan.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. I would say it stronger... it's REAL fascism... government run by corporations
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Hmm. How do you figure?
Thanks.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Pretty simple. When we are REQUIRED BY LAW to PURCHASE a product
of a corporation, the government has put that corporation in a position of power.

Look up what David Sirota has said about this. He was spot on.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Do you have a link to Sirota?
He's someone I like to read anyway.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I heard him talk about this on AM760. I think he also wrote an essay about it.
I would have to search, since I heard it live, so I'll let you give it a try.

If you can find a transcript on AM760, it would be on Jay Marvin's show---Sirota is subbing for him.

I hope you find it.

Oh, and it was the day after Obama's speech.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. Thanks, I'll look for it
Appreciate the tip
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DaLittle Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #14
37. Who Runs Washington? The MF'n Corporations Through Their Employees Called Lobbyists That Enforce...
US style FASCISM with a pen and a checkbook rather than at the point of a GUN! Simple as that! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anTW1ZdqswM
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
27. Amen
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
7. When one is busy placating the hate base, facts don't pay off.
:(
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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
11. What exactly has the Administration gotten in return for selling out.?
For selling us all out to a the national "Romney Care" scam to profit the insurance industry?

We have been thoroughly betrayed and will suffer in exchange for all the support we gave to get them in office.
We the people have no representation at the moment. None at all.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I don't know for sure, but I'd guess campaign money from the insurance industry?
Just a guess.
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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. How come our money never counts in the BRIBE LEDGER?
I would like just for once (even if common people hadn't donated in record amounts) for the government to be run by people that thought people were worth more than money. I actually believe that if you allow people to die for the sake of money then you are a psychopath, for only a psychopath would lack the basic empathy required to value human life over money.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Now there's a good question.
I'd have to say I don't know.
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Libertas1776 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
13. No controls on costs,
and I really doubt this mandated insurance thing is really going to pass. So, then, what the hell do we end up with; NOTHING! Nada, zip, bubkis! We are right back to square one. This whole reform is just going to be one big failure.

The only real reform we will get will be from Single Payer care. That and nothing else is true reform.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Controls on costs are fought by lobbyists:
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
20. hold on a minute.. that time period there were also MORE unemployed, more poor, etc.
You can't try to equate that to mandating it... in this economy EVERY State has seen dramatic drops in the number of insured folks. It's not about the mandate, it's about layoffs, the economy, and lack of money. I challenge anyone to find a state where the number of insured went UP in the past 3 years. The point is, when you don't have the money, it doesn't matter what's mandated. I agree on that point.. but I don't want to pay for people who refuse to get coverage. Then we all continue to pay for the uninsured that way.
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NotThisTime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Agreed, they made it affordable for the majority, but they are up over 9% unemployment and rising,
Foreclosures are through the roof right now. I don't think you can say their health program isn't working, I think it's absolutely working given the sheer number of people who have lost their jobs and their homes... it's a terrible sign of the economy in general. But, they did make it quite affordable and the coverage is good.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #21
34. It's working nicely for those who aren't actually sick and of modest means
That's tha majority--the 85% of people who account for only 15% of health care costs. The unlucky 15% are getting fucked over badly.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. So, you are ok with a health plan that does not work during recession?
You think that this will be good for the U.S. economy to have people's ability to obtain necessary health care be dependent upon the profits of the nation's big corporations?

Health care reform needs to be like the public school system. It is always there especially in bad times, because bad times are going to be when we need it most. The fairest way to do this is to trim the outrage profits that insurance companies make, rein in Big Pharm and their crazy Medicare prices, force the health care establishment to train fewer specialists and more primary care physicians---and invest a few pennies in public health to save hundreds in ICU care for preventable disease.

Anyone who says that failure is ok as long as the economy is bad is not really trying.
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
33. they're talking about closing
a couple of our local schools and bussing children almost an hour away. Budget cuts, declining enrollment, etc have decimated schoolsystems across the nation. I hope a Public Plan would work better than funding for our Public schools.

:(

:shrug:


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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #20
54. which is why funding universal health care through progressive taxation works better
than the bs on the table.
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
23. 375 million and a six lobbyists for every member of Congress


And, our side can't even come together to fight for real reform.

Too entranced with the pretty speech and political worship to see what is right before their damn eyes.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. They think we will vote them back into office, because they are the lesser of 2 evils.
Times like this I wish we had a parliamentary system.
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. No more money to the democrats, only individual politicians who are on are side

There are a few democrats that are amazing...

Weiner & Kucinich...

Bernie Sanders is a great politician.

Primary the blue dogs, stand with the progressive caucus...

The rest of them can go to hell.
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wroberts189 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
35. Mandated insurance will not lower your premiums by themselves. Its a scam. nt
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 05:52 AM
Response to Original message
38. Is this mandated insurance policy Romney Care?
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bornskeptic Donating Member (951 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 07:49 AM
Response to Original message
39. More deceptive BS from PNHP
Certainly no surprise in that.

From the email you quote:

"Significantly, in Massachusetts, where an individual-mandate health reform law, much like what President Obama is proposing on a national scale, was passed in 2006, at least 352,000 people, or 5.5 percent of the population, remained uninsured in 2008. That number was actually (but non-significantly) higher than the number of uninsured in 2007, before strict enforcement of the individual and employer mandates went into effect. "

But notice that the author only compares numbers of uninsured in 2007 and 2008, but does give any indication of what the numbers were in 2006, when implementation of the plan began, or in 2009, the current year. Let's see what the Secretary of the Massachusetts Department of Health and Human Services has to reveal about that:

"With these building blocks of reform firmly in place, Massachusetts has the lowest rate of uninsured in the country, 2.6 percent. As of May 2009, more than 428,000 people are newly enrolled in insurance plans; about 190,000 (or 45 percent) of them are enrolled in commercial plans."
http://www.rollcall.com/features/Mission-Ahead_Health-Care/ma_healthcare/35532-1.html

So what actually happened over the three year period sisnce implementation was that the percentage of uninsured in Massachusetts dropped from about 9% to 2.6%, but most of the decrease occurred in the first year and the third year, so the author of the email uses the fact that little decrease happened in the second year to claim that the number of uninsured didn't decline at all.


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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. Yes that seems to be the case here.
The PNHP 'facts' are cherry picked to make their case. I am no fan of RomneyCare, but we should attack if for its flaws not by distorting its successes. The facts are that from inception to now the number of uninsured has dropped dramatically.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #39
47. Rates of uninsured should drop every year until it reaches 0. That is true universal
health care. What the Mass numbers indicate is a system in which some people living at the poverty level were suddenly able to get (federal) government subsidized health insurance. But a whole lot of working class folks (200,000 according to this Boston Globe story) are unable to get it, probably because they make more than 150% of the poverty level. This problem in Mass was apparent early on and yet nothing has been done to fix it, because that would entail changing a system that is working well for insurance companies.

From the Boston Globe:

MASSACHUSETTS HAS been lauded for its healthcare reform, but the program is a failure. Created solely to achieve universal insurance coverage, the plan does not even begin to address the other essential components of a successful healthcare system.

What would such a system provide? The prestigious Institute of Medicine, part of the National Academy of Sciences, has defined five criteria for healthcare reform. Coverage should be: universal, not tied to a job, affordable for individuals and families, affordable for society, and it should provide access to high-quality care for everyone.

snip

For an individual earning $31,213, the cheapest plan can cost $9,872 in premiums and out-of-pocket payments. Low-income residents, previously eligible for free care, have insurance policies requiring unaffordable copayments for office visits and medications.


A system like this, which does not make insurance affordable for the lower income working class, will not even begin to address the problems that plague our country in terms of chronic diseases.

Note that the article identifies one program that fulfills all of the criteria. Medicare.

Here is a reference about the need to examine statistics about insured and uninsured rates carefully. For instance, a special interest can count people who had insurance for part of the year as "insured". And they can ignore the problem of people who are unisured. Also note that the article identified around 600,000 uninsured people in Mass in 2006, the year their health care law was passed. That means their "universal" insurance in Mass has a 66% success rate---making it much less than universal. In contrast, Medicare achieves a close to 100% coverage rate.

http://blog.hcfama.org/?p=520

If Mass care's 66% drop in uninsured was the best we could do, I guess we would have to live with it. But Medicare, the VA and other government health programs prove that we do not have to settle for second best. Nor do we have to break the budget to achieve full coverage.

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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #39
50. Examples of other deceptive BS??? Link to the current article at PNHP...
New uninsured figures show Massachusetts, touted as model for national reform, is failing to cover the uninsured

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2009/september/uninsured_figures_sh.php

"...Dr. Quentin Young, national coordinator of PNHP, said had it not been for a leap of approximately 4.4 million people newly covered by government programs like Medicaid and Medicare, the overall uninsured rate would have set a new record.

Young said the “tragic and painful persistence” of tens of millions of uninsured persons in the country is “completely unacceptable” and underscores the urgency of enacting a Medicare-for-all program.

“The only way to solve this problem is to insure everyone,” he said. “And the only way to insure everyone is to enact single-payer national health insurance, an improved Medicare for all. Even President Obama has acknowledged this fact.”Young noted that Rep. Anthony Weiner, D-N.Y., is introducing an amendment to the House leadership’s health reform bill, H.R. 3200, which would essentially delete its present language and substitute the language of Rep. John Conyers’ single-payer bill, H.R. 676. “It’s not too late for Congress to do the right thing,” Young said.

Dr. Don McCanne, senior policy fellow at PNHP, noted that the Census Bureau was once again silent on the pervasive problem of “underinsurance.” People are usually defined as underinsured if they spend 10 percent or more of their income (or 5 percent if they are low-income) on out-of-pocket medical expenses in the course of a year..."



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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 07:54 AM
Response to Original message
40. K&R
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GCP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 07:54 AM
Response to Original message
41. I heard the opposite on WBUR 2 days ago (local NPR station)
They said figures had come out that the uninsured number in Massachusetts was now 4%, down from 9% before the plan came into law.
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natrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #41
48. yes dean was saying Mass uninsured lowest in the US now but very high cost
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sandyd921 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
45. Excellent analysis
You have it exactly right. I find it endlessly frustrating that more liberals and progressives aren't seeing that is where Obama and Congress are taking so-called healthcare reform. Then they're gonna say, "See we gave you want you wanted. Now shut up about it."
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nightgaunt Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
46. I have stated elswhere but this has much more information
When the final bill comes down it needs to be scrutinized closely and if it is wanting it needs to die. Damn if they are going to "pass anything is better than nothing" mentality on us! If it doesn't do the job it needs to die. We risk having it turning worse than it is now. We are in a bad way but they can make it so much worse and the Deathcare Insurers so much richer. That must not happen. Excellent article. Needs to be sent to every congressor out there. A bad bill is not the option we need. kill it and quick.

We need either HR676 or expansion of Medicare or something else that can cover all of us and is truly universal. Make all health insurance companies non-profit like in Japan and Sweden will also work in our favor.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. kick and r
:kick:
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
49. knr - thanks n/t
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geckosfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
55. Damn. Ya mean it costs money to provide insurance for people? Who'da thunk it?
The only sensible option is to end run around the insurance companies. Use the savings to improve health care and provider reimbursement rates.

The MA plan was always a scam to put money in the pocket of insurance companies. IMO there was never a credible effort made to actually improve health care for people.

Please President Obama. Take note. Take big note.
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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
56. I thought the MA plan was terrible.

This is the only country on earth that will avoid all plans that are proven to work for the ones meant to make private industry richer first, avoid giving help to "irresponsible" people (including the poor, the conned and the unlucky), and to do anything about the problem third, if at all.

Sometime, I want to shake some Republican and demand an answer: how can any problem be solved if every program the government sets up has to reach some private contractor's profit margin first? Can't the government just handle it and cut out the profiteer in the middle?

The proposed, "realistic" health care reforms, including Obama's, look to include the very flawed government/business cooperative ventures that are making social problems into social nightmares everywhere.



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