Is it ethical to counsel young people to join the military?

[mix]

I believe it is not.

Our post WWII military has shown itself to be incompetent and corrupt. The military-industrial complex is corroding our civil society and taking money away from public schools and other essential infrastructure. The actions of our military in places like Afghanistan are making us less safe by killing civilians indiscriminately and spreading poverty and instability. Moreover, the current wars are questionable on constitutional grounds and are without clearly defined objectives.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

1. those commercials getting to you, too?

[mix]

2. No TV, but I can imagine.

What is getting to me is the lack of viable career and education choices for young people that do not involve becoming cannon fodder or serving the rich.

[The Gunslinger]

66. Working as designed.

[rd_kent]

3. Yes, it is ethical to counsel young people about the PROS and CONS of joining the military.

The young must be EDUCATED and INFORMED so that they may make a decision for themselves.

[mix]

5. Under different circumstances, I might agree with your even handed approach.

If we had a healthy economy and were living in peacetime, I would perhaps embrace your views.

But given our economy, the high unemployment and the Oil Wars in the Middle East and Central Asia, I disagree. Many join the military out of desperation, or even to acquire citizenship. The underprivileged and the undocumented are most susceptible to recruiters.

"Choices" and "decisions" cannot be freely made under these circumstances.

Nor do I believe the present wars are just.

If a young person has made this decision already, only then will I be even handed. But I will not counsel them to take this path as as a first choice as they search for a life as an adult.

[Kaleva]

28. +1

In the end, it's up to them to decide. I've talked to both of my eldest step-children about the advantages and disadvantages about joining the military and they both decided that they wanted to go to college. A decision that I supported just as I would have supported them had either joined the military.

[Lost-in-FL]

4. Yes

POLITICIANS and not the military created what is today the Military Industrial Complex. Poor, mostly educated people with good intentions have been taken advantage of for centuries. That you consider the military unethical won't stop wars. That the military is incompetent and corrupt only shows that is run by Homo sapiens.

Remember, a soldier called on the abuses on Abu Ghraib, military officers risked jail time when they fought against the Bush administration, veterans were at the heart of the anti-war demonstrations. There are people in the ranks with ethics too.

[mix]

9. Yes, I do respect those inside the military who spoke out, particularly in the JAG corps. nt

[DevonRex]

52. My son will be a JAG after he finishes law school. And thank goodness there are liberal

JAGs. So, yes it IS ethical to counsel kids to join the military. I am a veteran and so is my husband. Thank goodness for ALL the liberals in the military.

[Lost-in-FL]

13. Correction

should read "mostly 'Undeducated' people with good intentions".

[Catch22Dem]

6. Absolutely!

I spent 8 years in the military and loved every minute of it. I would tell that to anyone who asked me. If young people want to know about it, are we seriously supposed to say, "I'm not going to tell you"? That doesn't make any sense.

I also don't agree with your characterization of the military, but that's your opinion and I respect it.

[mix]

7. I understand your viewpoint...

...but think beyond your personal experience...should we be counseling young people today, given the economy and our current foreign policy, to join? Particularly, underprivileged students?

[Catch22Dem]

23. I should have been clearer

My intention was to say that we should counsel young people ABOUT joining, not TO join, and only if they ask. I don't think we should be pulling high school kids aside and saying "here's all the reasons you should join the service." Not at all. They should also take some personal responsibility and ASK QUESTIONS. I tell that to everyone. Ask questions when you are considering joining. I've known sooooo many people who went to the mall to hang out and ended up joining the military that day. Come on, give it some more thought than that!

You're correct, my personal experience is all I know. I served with lots and lots of other liberals. I served with plenty of conservatives too, but they were great people. That's why I hate painting with a broad brush and saying things like "the military is killing civilians indiscriminately" I don't think that's a fair statement. I KNOW from personal experience that there are wonderful people in the military who are appalled about the actions of some in the military, but would be equally appalled that they were being lumped together with those people.

I had the benefit of serving in a very technical field too. My military job did wonders for me in life. If someone asked me if they should join the Infantry, I would have to pull from my own experience and say, "hell no" but an infantryman might disagree with me. :)

[WeDidIt]

8. I'll go further than that

It is unethical NOT to discuss the military as an option with young people.

[mix]

10. How so? nt

[WeDidIt]

49. Young people WILL meet recruiters

Young people need to understand the reality of military service.

A lot of young people will benefit from military service. A lot of young people will be attracted to military service.

Almost no young people who talk to recruiters understand the reality of military service and many who should never join the military end up doing so based upon what the recruiters tell them.

A recruiter's job is to get people to sign on the dotted line. They do so by noting the high points of military service and downplaying the cons.

If young people are armed with good information about military service, those who will benefit from it will join and those who should enver be in the military will not be taken in by recruiters.

[Nikki Stone1]

11. Not now. Back in the 80s, the military was a way to an education and decent career

It wasn't a bad idea for a kid with no other options. Now, with stop loss and people doing 3 or 4 tours or more, it's really become a meat grinder. In addition, the use of mercenaries (contractors) has blurred the lines. The unrestrained behavior of Blackwater/Xe puts the regular soldier even more at risk. At this point, I would never recommend the military.

[Cid_B]

12. So....

the only time it's ok to join up is when you feel there is little to no chance you'd have to put your own ass on the line?

[mix]

15. But isn't that the essence of a volunteer military?

As a citizen, you have the right to decide if the cause is worth fighting for, correct?

[Nikki Stone1]

17. Exactly.

It's not a draft. And you play the odds like you'd play at Vegas.

[Nikki Stone1]

16. You play the odds. One 18-month tour, you've got a shot at coming back. 3,4,5 tours

you have less and less of a chance of not ending up in a body bag.

[cherokeeprogressive]

19. Not in the Navy

:patriot:

[Nikki Stone1]

25. You got me there. :)

:)

[TxRider]

32. The odds are quite good actually

There are about 2.5 million enlisted personnel.

Only maybe 200 thousand deployed in both Iraq and Afghanistan combined.

There are more contractors over there than troops, and they are all voluntary.

I would even suggest joining the military for some.

Take my nephew. He was raised by his alcoholic and psychotic mother until he was old enough to declare he wanted to live with my brother. She is so bad she left her 10 year old son (my nephews half brother) at a truck stop once, he ended up getting someone there to help him call his dad, who drove 250 miles to pick him up.

The kid is about 22 now, won't hold a job, lives by going from relative to relative until they get tired of him and make him leave. He has no discipline, no character, and no work ethic. He's about the most irresponsible kid I've known.

A stint in the military might help him out a lot I've often thought.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

30. You caught that too.

Why can't people understand that a small, but significant number of young men and women will be drawn to the military--no matter what. Yes, the military is a source of income and health care, but that is not the only reason people sign up. Some of us relish the opportunity to serve out country. Many of us like the idea of being warriors. We are not all helpless people with few options other than serving as "cannon fodder" for the rich men who sent us to war. By the way, that is a real old and cliche line.

I signed up back in 1996. at that time we were in relatively peaceful time; yet, I knew that someday I might fight in a war. Sure enough, I was deployed to Iraq in 2003. I was also "stopped lossed" for 2 months while I was still in Iraq. I understood that this was a sacrifice that I had to make.

I live in the Berkeley area now and none of my friends have ever served in the military (although a lot of my coworkers have). It gets quite annoying hearing them opine about how bad "our troops" have it. Ironically, I feel really bad for them. I could not imagine being a grown man and not having the life experiences that I had in the Corps.

I have been out of the Corp over 6 years and not a day goes by where I don't think of it with fond memories. I have said it before and I will say it again, I talk to my little nephews about the Corps all the time, and if I have a son, I would hope he would some day join the Corps.

[Cid_B]

47. Right there with you...

There is a reason we do what we do and it isn't because we are stupid or ignorant as compared to the "enlightened" who think we are only cannon fodder.

There really is such a thing as a warrior mentality. There is also an antithesis to the warrior mentality and I see alot of it around here.

There are reasons why I signed up, sacrifice my time with my family and take the random mortar round and it isn't for the health benefits.

[noamnety]

53. Even in the 80s

it was a recipe for sexual assault, rape, discrimination, a breeding ground for white male supremacy types, exposure to substances that kill you in kinder, gentler ways (as opposed to being in a meat grinder), the wars we were fighting were senseless and based on oppression and propping up right wing dictators.

[mix]

54. White supremacists, militia members...I wonder how many got their start in the armed services? nt

[elocs]

14. My godson joined when he was 17 and I counseled him to think seriously about it.

Last spring he finished his tour in Afghanistan where he was stationed in the mountains near the border with Pakistan. When he got back he re-upped for another 6 years. For him it was the best decision he could make. He loves the Army and he really is the type of person who needs the specific supervision he gets in the military. Had he been left to his own devices he would have ended up flipping burgers somewhere. If he does 20 years he will be 37 and have a military pension.

[LeftyMom]

18. Killing people for money is a moral evil, not a valid career path.

[cherokeeprogressive]

22. Ten years a Sailor, and I never killed a single person.

Never even picked up a gun, in fact.

[LeftyMom]

24. So you were providing support services for those who did the killing?

That's the whole point of the military. It's not a jobs program.

[Kaleva]

33. I was in 13 years and didn't provide support for killing

I would have done some killing or been killed had a war with the then Soviet Union broke out.

[cherokeeprogressive]

34. I was attached to two squadrons, and one shore duty command.

In the ten years I was in, not one of the three was responsible for a single death other than those who died THAT WERE SAILORS. Those people died in training accidents. Six of my shipmates died in aircraft crashes, one was sucked into a jet intake and lost his life, and one fell overboard during ORE (Operational Readiness Exercises).

I benefitted greatly while serving my country, in some ways that had tangible results, and in others which cannot be measured.

[Lost-in-FL]

46. I served for 6 years and no killing.

I would do it again if I could with Pres. Obama as Commander in Chief.

My mission in the military was to save lives and is exactly what I do now in my local hospital. I was against both Iraq and Afghanistan wars and still am.

[Thothmes]

83. 25 years in the Navy, never fired a shot at anyone.

[Hippo_Tron]

31. Militaries do kill people but they also act as deterrents

[Pavulon]

40. Even to stop genocide in bosnia?

I deployed there and had no problem with NATO using force to stop that massacre. Hey, "please" does not always work.

GI bill paid for most of my college, and was a positive experience, mostly.

[proteus_lives]

69. So armed forces are a "moral evil"?

Please explain.

[datasuspect]

20. i would counsel the scions of wealth, children of privilege, and republicans to enlist

[lunatica]

21. I think 99% of war is unethical

The 1% I reserve for people who have to fight in defense of being invaded or threatened for real.

War should be abolished. If leaders want to go to war they should meet each other to fight it out personally. I think that would bring an end to war.

[michreject]

26. Without a doubt, yes

It has a lot of opportunities.

[proteus_lives]

27. Nothing wrong with joining the military.

Millions of people do it for thousands of different reasons.


"Our post WWII military has shown itself to be incompetent and corrupt." Wow, that's a statement made entirely of fail. Have you ever cracked a military history book?

[Nikia]

29. My little brother just joined the air force

He is "gifted", but did not have superior self disipline and is more of a hands on learner. He graduated from high school this spring in an area with double digit unemployment. He is training for air traffic control, which is applicable to civilian life. In some ways, I feel that the military is unethical but I think that it is good for developing a career for him. I guess that if I were to counsel a young person about joining the military, I'd recommend training for a career path that had direct applications to civilian life.

[suston96]

35. Good economics.....

...reduces the army of the unemployed, and....

Not everyone who joins the military ends up in combat.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

36. I believe that to show them commercials in which they are given

the idea that they will be sitting in a futuristic computer filled room with 3D displays everywhere you look keeping the world safe from the demonized group of people of the day is ludicrous and wrong.

[57_TomCat]

87. In some cases...

that is absolutely true. I personally have worked in some of those places. The CiC in a modern ship of the line for example is the epitome of electronic gaming. Of course a live Exocet missile might interrupt "your game".

[alfredo]

37. If the kid is your neighbor and has been making your life a living hell with

loud music, throwing trash in your yard, and stealing stuff from your garage, then I'd say it is ethical to counsel him to join the military.

[Retired AF Dem]

38. Our post WWII military has shown itself to be incompetent and corrupt

No our post WW11 Govts have been incompetent when it comes to deploying the military. The WW11 military didnt have a leash on it. All conflicts since has. And we havent won shit since.

[Shrek]

39. The military is a great choice

Of course it's ethical.

[mix]

42. In the abstract, yes it is a "great choice."

But what about now, in the historical moment we are living? Is it still a great choice?

[undeterred]

41. I have some friends whose son became a marine.

They are not a 'military' family and when he announced he was doing this they tried to talk him out of it. He did it anyway and succeeded. Now he is getting some career training in computer networking and they are very proud of him.

But he could be sent to Afghanistan to die.

[aikoaiko]

43. Yes, it is ethical. Full disclosure is required in counseling the possibility of joining.

As others have said.

[zoff]

44. If my son asks me then I will give him my honest opinion.

But I'd prefer that recruiters stay away from high schools. Colleges receiving federal funding, of course.

Only parents have the right to counsel kids or confer that responsibility to others. Assuming of course that the parents have a good head on their shoulders, regardless of their views of the military establishment.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

45. I always counsel them to find something useful to do instead.

And, if they insist on being stupid, I tell them about the first, and truest words I ever heard when I arrived at boot camp, "You'll be SORRRRRRY!!".

[proteus_lives]

51. What do you tell them millions who have served and aren't sorry?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

58. Pretty much the same thing.

They should've found something useful to do.

[proteus_lives]

65. Well, that doesn't make sense.

I have friends and family members who worked, helped people and learned valuable skills and trades while in the armed forces. That's useful in my mind.

Are you projecting your own experiences?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

68. Yep. 4 years of doing absolutely nothing beneficial to anyone.

How about you?

[proteus_lives]

72. My personal exposure to the armed forces has led me to believe that...

like most occupations it can have a positive or negative effect on different people for different reasons.

Some people don't belong in the military and it doesn't benefit them. While others thrive in that environment and it leds them to better and greater accomplishments. While others who don't stay in gain from their time spent there. And others who pursue it find nothing positive about their experiences and look for another path.

That's why for some people the armed forces would be the "better thing" for them to do.

[Cid_B]

76. Pieced together a little girls head and took in some IEDs last week...

What did you accomplish hmm?

[Orsino]

48. I wouldn't want a young person to sign up *without* counseling.

I wouldn't want anyone pressured to join the meat grinder that is our current military--but there's something to be said for ethical people joining up.

[noamnety]

50. On another (apolitical) forum last month

one of our members announced he had joined the delayed entry program. I spoke out pretty strongly against it, and challenged him to provide some basic background knowledge he should have before signing up. He said the odds of being shipped to a conflict area are fairly low. I asked him what his recruiter told him the current overall deployment rate was, and the deployment rate for his MOS. He got pissed off at me (read as: he didn't bother to ask the question, he had no statistics at all).

When he wanted to know why I was opposed to it, I told him I know too many people who have PTSD for life. Since I enlisted I've learned the statistics on a whole lot of things - the percentage who actually are eligible for/actually use the college fund, the higher alcoholism rate among vets (giving the lie to the idea that it will "develop your sense of discipline"), the lower overall earnings (betraying the lie of "this will advance your civilian career").

And I told him I know too many people, personally, who had lost their benefits and bonuses because they were injured on duty - and many times the military classifies it as a pre-existing condition and won't even cover the medical care after you're discharged. Sometimes that's for PTSD which they claim is a "personality disorder." Sometimes it's a physical injury and they won't cover medical expenses. Now the veteran finds themselves unable to pay their medical bills, and without treatment - and the bad credit from paying their medical - their job options are limited.

The guy got pissed at me, had the thread locked in an effort to shut me up. He moved up his enlistment date and took off for basic. That was 34 days ago.

Two days ago he was back on the forum looking for advice. Medical discharge for an injury he received in basic, needless to say he isn't getting any enlistment benefits or bonuses at all, the army had him sign something classifying it as an EPTS injury (Existing Prior To Service) despite their physical finding him fit for duty. It will take at least 3 months to get out of the cast, he's not sure if he can file a claim with the VA and get them to cover the cost or if he can get any disability since he signed the EPTS papers. He is hoping he can file for unemployment.

[Mariana]

57. Wow. Can you tell me where to find some of those statistics?

I'm not exactly sure where to look. My nephew is considering enlisting in the Marines and I think for him it would be a bad move, and I think he would be doing it for the wrong reasons. He seems to be believing everything the recruiter and the brochures say. It doesn't help that the rest of the family are acting hysterical about it. I'm about the only adult in his life that he respects so if I can point him toward some real factual information, he'll likely take the time to read it and take it under consideration.

[Kaleva]

60. I'd advise him to check out the Navy, Air Force or Coast Guard

before making a commitment to the Marines

[noamnety]

77. The first thing I'd recommend

is sitting down with a printed copy of the enlistment document (contract) which you can find easily online, and have him highlight everything that isn't clear, everything he wants clarification about, everything that doesn't sound quite right. ("Talking to the text" in teacher lingo.) That way, he's leading the discussion and somewhat empowered, instead of passively getting a lecture.

That will generate a list of questions he should ask. I'd recommend posting them up in the recruiter section of the military.com forums. That way he'll get a range of opinions by people with differing backgrounds and different political views, with the common link being that most of them have served and have first hand experience, and none of them are under pressure to get him to sign. It's important he understands that pressure on his recruiter - he does need to understand the pressure on recruiters so he gets that he shouldn't trust the guy totally, and also so he understands that doesn't make them bad people. They are in an impossible job because if they say anything negative about the military, even if it's true, if it costs them the enlistment it hurts their career. They aren't neutral and their job isn't to help him personally - their mission is to get people to sign up.

Deployment rates, suicide rates, disability rates, all that I'd pull from .gov sites so it's clear it's not left wing distortions. Or, better yet, if he's open to it, do it as a research project so he has to find the answers if he is good with computers. That way he can't blame you for giving him one-sided information, it's the information he found. This should be required reading: http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/joiningup/a/recruiter.htm

Usually searching on "military deployment rates" is a good bet for finding statistics.
reserve and guard deployments: http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Sep2009/d20090901ngr.pdf

Marines seem to be doing 7 months deployed, 6 months at home, repeat. http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2008/04/military_readiness.html

What's especially interesting if he does his own searches is that if you put in "marines deployment rates 2008" what you'll get as the first hits are information about military suicides.

[Mariana]

82. Thank you so much!

I'd already sent him a copy of the basic enlistment contract - don't know if he's read over it yet. I've also explained to him what the actual duties of a recruiter are, and that they don't include looking out for his best interests.

Those links will be very helpful, I think. Thanks again!

[Kaleva]

55. I give this a rec

I don't agree with the views stated in the OP but I think the question itself is valid.

[Bill McBlueState]

56. no

Look at how the military's been used over the last 50 years. How could it be ethical for anyone to encourage participation in that?

[Kaleva]

59. How about the last 200+ years?

[mix]

61. You mean Manifest Destiny?

In the 19th century the US military was used to conquer the American West, exterminate Native Americans, and culturally destroy those Indians who remained...not exactly an estimable record.

Our military's finest moment was the defeat of Nazism...the actions in the Balkans under Clinton were admirable, but within the command structure of NATO.

[Kaleva]

62. Yes plus the Mexican and Spanish-American Wars

[proteus_lives]

63. What about the Civil War?

American soldiers ended slavery.

[mix]

64. Another one of our military's finest moments.

Soldiers were one part of this victory though...the vision of the Union's political leaders was also crucial.

[proteus_lives]

67. A political vision that would have been nothing without people to make it a reality.

[Kaleva]

71. Many Civil War vets went on to fight in the Indian Wars

and officers like Grant and Lee were vets of the Mexican War.

Of course, there'd be no United States without the wars of conquest.

[proteus_lives]

74. There wouldn't be any countries without warfare.

Part of the human condition. No nation is purely peaceful or warlike.

[Kaleva]

75. True

[Pavulon]

70. All brought to you by those you elect.

the military in the US does not order its self to war. Civilians do that.

[Kaleva]

73. True

How the military is used is up to the civilians and not up to the military altough the military does provide significant input.

[anonymous171]

79. Correct. nt

[Lost-in-FL]

80. +++1

[anonymous171]

78. The Military > Business School, imo. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. Absolutely, just as I would counsel a kid to go into education

EMS, police or any other SERVICE calling.

To some it is not their cup of tea, to others... it is.

And being the wife of a retinred USN Chief... and also served myself, I find the question insulting.

That said, you are entitled to your opinion... but this is a huge blind spot of some liberals.

While some liberals go military bad, no matter what, some righties go USA, USA, USA, (never to serve themselves)

And the military has good people in it, and bad people in it... so what?

And if a kid asks, what am I supposed to say?

Granted, we do go fully into that nastiness of you may get killed and you are not indestructible... but that goes with the territory.

You know my view of this is? These wars are so freaking important? Fine. lets make this a national effort or pull out, enough of hiring mercs (half of the troops in Afghanistan are money grubbing mrcs) there I said it.

[mix]

91. You are offended by my question, you should be offended by how much we spend on the military...

[Echo In Light]

84. Does "counsel" necessarily = encourage? Than a big NO

In my estimation the military only 'defend' powerful corporate interests that don't have jack shit to do w/"freedom" and "democracy," so no, I don't find it ethical to encourage anyone to sign on to become a corp mercenary.

[mix]

85. Yes, I should have been more clear: counsel=encourage. nt

[57_TomCat]

86. Absolutely.

I have in the past and continue to do so now. The military is an honorable profession and worthy of support. I believe your views are completely wrong. On the other hand I believe the politicians on both sides of the aisle have been using the military for personal purposes to engender political support and Bush was the worst abuser with his Iraq debacle. I also believe the military has suffered as a result of mis informed opinions such as yours. Opinions that should be directed at the politicians and defense industries that tend to ratchet up the sabre rattling.

I proudly served. I have lost a nephew in Afghanistan, have a niece currently in the USMC and my youngest is planning to join as well. The military is that which stands between you and the evil of the world. Let us help it serve by limiting the ability of politicians to interfere.

[sea four]

88. It's a complicated question

but no, especially not right now. Both Iraq and Afghanistan are immoral wars of aggression, and they have destroyed the lives of millions of innocent people. And as far as I can tell, there was never a good reason for it.

If you tell people to join the military right now, or if you yourself make a decision to join, that means you are willingly supporting the whole thing. Which makes you partly responsible for all the suffering that these wars cause. Even if you never directly participate in the war itself, you are still offering support to it.

[Vidar]

89. Not while we're indulging in unjust wars.

[rucky]

90. Counsel does not equal "convince".

I think we should honestly discuss the pros and cons with kids considering joining the military. Give them the straight facts without trying to sway them one way or another. If it's for them, they'll join. If now, they won't.

[madville]

92. They should know what options are out there, it can be a good deal

I joined the military at 22 years old and did six years active duty. Got paid well, went through electronics/communications schools, got health benefits for me and my son, got a ton of dental work done while I was in, went to college for free with Tuition Assistance, still have most of my GI Bill left that is worth around $40,000, they gave me extra money to pay most of my child support (Child BAH).

The money has really gotten halfway decent since 2000. When I left active duty in 2005 I was taking home $3100 a month as an E-5. If I was still in now at the same pay grade it would be around $3600 take home a month in the same kind of billet.

Depending on the economy it could be an option for my son, I would encourage him to look at the Air Force or Coast Guard. Great way to go through college with no debt while getting a paycheck.

I've been out for four years now and I work in the field they trained me in for a federal contractor and since I'm still in the reserves I get tuition assistance (taking two classes right now) up to $4500 a year. I did find out this week I'm getting activated for a year starting in November, but that's fine, with the Per Diem for being stationed away from home I'll be taking home about $4500 a month, not bad.

If the economy continues it's downward slide, the military will be a good option for some. Many opportunities are in the states with no chance of getting deployed overseas, office jobs, technical jobs, IT, etc. If you don't have many other options like the position I was in, it can really change your life for the better.