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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 12:04 PM
Original message
Obama's Pretense of Justice in Afghanistan
Edited on Sun Sep-13-09 01:02 PM by bigtree
"Familiarize yourselves with the chains of bondage, and you prepare your own limbs to wear them. Accustomed to trample on the rights of others, you have lost the genius of your own independence and become the fit subjects of the first cunning tyrant who rises among you." -- Lincoln


THE Obama Justice Dept. has announced their decision to allow prisoners the U.S. military and other American intelligence agencies are holding at Bagram prison in Afghanistan to challenge their detentions. In an apparent step backward from their challenge of a district court ruling in April that granted some military prisoners in Afghanistan the right to file lawsuits seeking their release, the decision this week would provide an administrative panel comprised of military officers (not personal or military counsel) who would determine the merit of the prisoner's appeals. The plan is to provide an opportunity for those detained to call witnesses and present evidence in their defense, something our citizens take for granted in our own legal system.

In April, the Obama Justice Department http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/11/world/asia/11bagram.html?ref=world">asked the court to halt the habeas-corpus cases of three detainees at Bagram, signaling their intention to continue the Bush administration practice of denying those detained by the U.S. at Gitmo and elsewhere basic rights to representation, trial, and appeal. The court had found that the cases at Bagram "closely parallel" those of prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay, "in large part because the detainees themselves as well as the rationale for detention are essentially the same." At Gitmo, similar Administrative Review Boards have been in place since the Supreme Court ruled in 2006 have to give these folks they'd tortured due process rights. Those grudging constructions are far from the representation Americans recognize as proper or necessary in our own defense against illegal or unreasonable detentions and haven't resulted in any significant reduction in the 'processing' of those still held under the anti-democratic constructions of the last administration, at Gitmo or anywhere else the U.S. is detaining the (mostly) political captives of their war on terror.

They call them terrorists, but only a fraction of the Arabs and Afghans held by the U.S. at the Guantanamo Bay or Afghanistan prisons have been charged with anything. You would think that if the U.S. had solid evidence against these prisoners they would bring charges against them. All the Bush regime and their Pentagon had actually wanted was permission to kill these Gitmo detainees, legal-like. They caught them on the 'battlefield' and they wanted to finish the job. Hell, when they caught these men (and boys) our soldiers had tanks, airstrikes, shock and awe . . . to them, all of this ducking around the Courts is an insult to all of the force and manpower they put behind capturing these prisoners.

Their greatest fear was that these prisoners would get their shot at what we take for granted here in America: a free and fair trial, due process, access to evidence against them with the right to challenge with witnesses, protection against use of coerced confessions . . . and that there won't be enough evidence to hold these prisoners, even though the military would fall over themselves to vouch for their guilt. That's why the Bush regime set up a tribunal with limited access to whatever evidence they classify, no redress against coerced 'evidence', and limited access to counsel (if any).

What the military and other intelligence agencies really want from Congress is a law allowing his lawyers to use hearsay evidence - like making one of our military or government's finest, testify about something someone else told them - to convict these men they tortured, and possibly have them executed. You'll take the government and military's word for it all. . . won't you?

That's the likely effect of the Obama administration's new court-dodging construction. The prisoners the Bush administration approved the torture of had to be coughed up from CIA custody, after the Supreme Court ruling that military commissions must be explicitly authorized by Congress. The new decision will merely put these prisoners in a roomful of military actors posing as counsels and advocates for the prosecution and the defense. The military and others have tortured them pretty severely after dragging them through the CIA's wild rendition tour - definitely illegal - and, they can't risk any of that coming out in any actual trial discovery. Bush wanted a closed 'trial' where 'evidence' would be presented in secret, without the ones we tortured (or their 'lawyers') having access to any of it; whatever there is of it. The Obama administration looks to want the same advantage.

Moreover, the primary effect of keeping the testimony of these prisoners out of open court is to suppress any evidence or testimony presented by the prisoners of torture of abuse which led to any of the 'confessions' that the U.S. is relying on to ultimately convict them or keep them in detention. Bush wanted from Congress legislation that would make everything he did in his terror war - every law he's broken, every individual he's ordered abused, every individual he's ordered detained indefinitely without charges, every cover-up and hiding of 'evidence' he's authorized - completely and retroactively legal. That way Bush would be able to continue on with impunity. That way, he'd be able to keep his main political props in place at Gitmo as a hedge against his failure to follow through on capturing the 9-11 perpetrators identified in the military force authorization he claimed gave him the power to ignore laws and the will of Congress.

The Obama administration has mirrored the Bush efforts in the defense of their own ongoing, escalated military build-up and activity in Afghanistan which is undoubtedly adding to the numbers of detainees at Bagram. Also, as a result of the disruption of the Bush administration's covert rendition program, caused by the change in the White House, there have been moves to transfer prisoners from the black holes of secret CIA prisons, to Bagram, and a plan to transfer prisoners to Afghanistan keep them away from any precipitating moves at Gitmo which would provide rights and accountability to those detained there. The decision to allow prisoners access to an administrative review panel of military officers looks to be the same sham that Bush provided at Gitmo, with no opportunity provided prisoners to actually see the charges against them, review evidence, or even present witnesses.

The new constructions are a mere pretense of justice for those detained, much like the pretense of democracy that our military is promoting and defending in their dual occupations in Iraq and Afghanistan. It was an inexcusable political ploy for Bush to hold these Afghans and Arabs in his prisons - indefinitely, without charges - as substitutes for his inability to capture the perpetrators our government says are directly responsible for the 9-11 attacks: bin-Laden, and his accomplices. It's also an inexcusable political ploy for this administration to represent these administrative changes in their immoral detention policy as anything more than window dressing on their own flailing attempts to translate Bush's tyranny into their own anti-democratic terror war.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. FAIL/unrec. Typical cognitive dissonance. Every Bush policy undone has to be nefarious continuation
of same policy.

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. what a crock
You rely on your own dissonant defense to excuse what is a clear continuation of the Bush administration's attempt to suppress testimony and defense from those detained at Gitmo and Baghram prisons. At some point, defenders of the president need to account for his actions in continuing many of the anti-democratic constructions Bush used to cover and perpetuate his terror war. I would hope that loyalism to this president doesn't prevent folks from continuing their attack on this tyranny.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Rofl !
Edited on Sun Sep-13-09 03:04 PM by HamdenRice
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

You need to read a newspaper some time -- at least the ones reporting this change we can believe in.

The point is that they are prisoners of war being given legal process so they can be released.

The Limbaugh left reads this as a continuation of Bush's policies.

:silly: :crazy: :silly:
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. heh
What was wrong with the district court ruling? If they followed the law, due process would take care of those releases you believe they're so concerned about. It really takes some extraordinary belief to assume that, the continued indefinite detentions, the continued lack of access to counsel, the continued refusal to let prisoners see and review the charges against them, and the continued refusal to let these prisoners present evidence is a significant change from the last administration. Do you really believe there will be some significant decrease in the numbers unjustly held by the U.S. military and other agencies as a result of these changes in policy? I didn't find that optimistic conclusion in any 'newspaper' reporting, progressive or otherwise.

Funny how we weren't ridiculed as 'Limbaugh left' when we were criticizing Bush for the same anti-democratic policies. His administration also 'released' a trickle of prisoners. That wasn't anything near to the due process of law and justice that he purported to defend behind his violent, imperialistic pursuit of 'democracy' abroad. It won't be for this president either. These are basic defenses of human rights which are being ignored by this administration in their continued pursuit of 'success' in their own war on terror. I'm sorry to have read all of that. I would very much like to see the progress in dismantling these Bush constructions as you expect, like the new prison the military plans to build to replace Bagram. I don't see that happening.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. As long as we refuse to follow international law we place the whole framework for
international peace on precarious footing. This is perhaps the most disappointing aspect of the Obama administration. Thank you for this post, bigtree.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-14-09 05:29 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Did Eisenhower take German POWs to district court? You're confusing POWs with criminal detainees
This is one of the most fundamental misunderstandings of the chronically outraged, who misunderstood why the Bush administration was violating international and domestic law.

There are two categories of prisoners -- prisoners of war and criminal defendants. POWs are entitled to protection under international law, including the Geneva convention. Criminal defendants are entitled to US Constitutional protections.

Bush tried to create a third category of people who were neither and had neither the protections of international law nor the Constitution.

Obama has restored that distinction. But that doesn't mean that every POW captured on the battlefield in Afghanistan gets to federal district court.

That's utterly absurd.

Then again, I've listened to DUers bloviate about how they believe every Chinese peasant in a Sichuan rice paddy is protected by the US Constitution because the Constitution applies to all persons. (They aren't; it doesn't.)

In fact, providing Afghan POWs with a process to be released before the end of hostilities is giving them more process rights than are required under international law.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-14-09 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #13
14.  well
Edited on Mon Sep-14-09 08:40 AM by bigtree
I don't believe the numbers released have been, or will be reflective of the actual number of folks incarcerated who have nothing at all to do with the administration's terror war. To compare this contrived and flailing terror war (Obama's and Bush's) to the World War is 'utterly absurd'. The rights being denied the prisoners at Bagram and Gitmo are basic to ANY reasonable standard of justice. It's a shame that you're willing to define these prisoners outside of any expectation of those rights as our government seeks to prosecute them. You spoke about 'reading newspapers' in the earlier post. You could do with a bit of reading up on some of the extraordinary circumstances of their arrests (If you insist on putting aside the circumstances surrounding their detentions). The point in expecting an observance of rights for these prisoners is that the majority held have nothing at all to do with the attacks on our nation, therefore, can't credibly be considered part and parcel of any 'war' comparable to Germans or Japanese detained in the prosecution of our World Wars. The rub is that many were caught up defending their homeland (and themselves) against the shock and awe behind our opportunistic nation-building efforts in Kabul. Certainly there is some point in keeping the perpetrators of the 9-11 attacks on the run, but a great deal of the militarism in Afghanistan is not a direct defense against those perpetrators - it's a crap shoot which has merely produced the pretense of democracy there. There should be more consideration (from progressives and others) of the sovereignty of those caught in the way of our military's strident and violent advance across these folk's homeland. Unfortunately, to some Americans, guilt (and complicity in the U.S.'s perceived war on terror) for those captured and detained is assumed by their capture alone. Yet, the justice sought by the U.S. is premised on values which aren't evident in the treatment of the diverse and disparate collection of detainees. That's why due process of law is important. The assumption of guilt which these detainees suffer from their captors (like Bush's edict that they can be labeled 'enemy combatants' without a moment of defense) is an amazing abdication of those values which both the Obama administration and Bush's have purported to be defending with their militarism.

And, again, I don't see anyone who expects any significant reduction in the numbers unjustly held, just because the administration is going to provide some administrative panel to dispose of those rights which should be available in open court. Do you really believe they all aren't entitled to lawyers? Do you really believe these prisoners aren't entitled to know what they are being charged with? Do you really believe they aren't entitled to present evidence in their defense in open court? Do you really believe they should all be held indefinitely under these extraordinary circumstances?
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-14-09 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Let me ask two simple questions
Edited on Mon Sep-14-09 09:19 AM by HamdenRice
A guy is captured fighting for AQ in Afghanistan and taken to Bagram.

1. Is he a POW or a US federal criminal defendant? (IMO, he's probably better off being a POW because he's much more likely to go free sooner as a POW than if he gets to federal court).

2. Does habeas apply to him?

On edit: your post focuses on "guilt". Guilt is a concept that applies to criminal law. It does not apply to soldiers who are captured, and are not considered "guilty" but simply to have been doing their duty to their "side."
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-14-09 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. fighting for al-Qaeda?
Edited on Mon Sep-14-09 09:57 AM by bigtree
How do we get to that determination without some due process of rights for the defendant? Do we just assume any action against our forces in Afghanistan is in support of al-Qaeda or is the defendant going to be allowed to testify to that question? Is there to be some process where we can judge these cases on their individual merits?

Right now, our military regards most actions by Afghans in defense of their liberty and self-determination in their own homeland as part and parcel of their terror war against 'al-Qaeda. I doesn't make any sense to regard every resistance to our military's strident advance across sovereign borders as some defense of al-Qaeda. That's the flaw in whatever 'justice' they expect for those caught in the way of that opportunistic advance. Without due process of law, the detentions are just that; opportunistic and arbitrary. Our military has already admitted that 'al-Qaeda' has been run out of Afghanistan. It's now members and associates of the Taliban who have been saddled with the ire we once reserved for the original perpetrators of the 9-11 attacks. In Afghanistan, there's the nation-building in Kabul; there's the defense of the Afghan border with Pakistan against returning Taliban; and there's the actual pursuit of the original 9-11 suspects in Pakistan. Problem is, our military and government have conflated all of these into their terror war, and, they've lumped all of those captured and detained in Afghanistan into their terror portfolio. How will we learn the truth about their role in all of that without applying the standards of justice that most free people regard as essential to answering such questions?
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-14-09 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. OK, so basically, you're not going to answer the question
Figures.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-14-09 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. I'm unable to make that judgment
. . . and without knowing the particulars of the individual case, so are you. That's why the administrations are so loath to treat these detainees as individuals. It suits the prosecution of their (continuing) terror war to regard all captured as 'enemies' of our nation. It suits their fragmented terror war to regard all resistance to their arbitrary assaults across sovereign borders as a defense of 'al-Qaeda'. Again, how would you make that determination? Were they captured in the original assault on Afghanistan, or were they captured while resisting our nation-building aftermath?

I really don't accept the notion that we need to grant full habeus or Geneva rights to provide these basic rights to detainees. That's just a strawman (something you've complained about in this thread as a defense against points you've made).
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-14-09 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. "grant full habeus or Geneva rights" --HUH???
Yes we do have to provide EITHER FULL habeas OR FULL Geneva rights. Not providing the full version of one or the other is what Bush did.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-14-09 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. so now your argument is that they deserve full rights?
I agree, but the question was whether they could be provided a lawyer, informed of their charges, and be allowed to present evidence in open court; be afforded basic rights. Up until your outraged post, you seemed to imply that they didn't deserve those considerations. You've come full circle here Hamden.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Look up thread. It's a simple concept.
Edited on Tue Sep-15-09 08:35 AM by HamdenRice
The get EITHER FULL habeas rights (if they are criminal defendants) or FULL Geneva rights (if they are POWs).

POWs do not get trials, lawyers, habeas, courts, etc. (unless a government decides to give them EXTRA rights). They get a DIFFERENT set of rights, that in some ways are better than criminal defendants' rights and in some ways worse but DIFFERENT.

You cannot however say there is any set of people who are NEITHER, and you cannot say anyone gets PARTIAL rights under either regime.

I have not come full circle. I've been saying the same thing, over and over.

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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
3. knr
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. more dissent from rights advocates . . .
Ramzi Kassem, a law professor at City University of New York and attorney for one of those Bagram detainees, said the move is just "window dressing."

"The whole thing was meant to pull the wool over the eyes of the judicial system," he told The Associated Press late Saturday, responding to the newspaper reports. "These changes don't come anywhere near an adequate substitute for a real review."

"These improvements are really just smoke and mirrors," Kassem said.


The American Civil Liberties Union said the development was encouraging, but also was concerned about the level of secrecy that the group said surrounds Bagram.

"The public remains uninformed of basic facts such as who is imprisoned there, how long they have been held, where they were captured and on what grounds they are being subjected to indefinite detention," said Melissa Goodman, staff attorney with the ACLU National Security Project.

She also expressed disappointed at the administration's "continued efforts to block Bagram prisoners' access to U.S. courts."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/13/afghan-detainees-allowed-_n_284895.html
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
5. Kick
Recc'd. Good on you, bigtree. Much appreciated.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
6. .
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
8. What a farce. K&R
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
9. Rug meets broom. Military officers to decide their fate? Why not Rumsfeld? K&R
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. It is not permitted to the most equitable of men
. . . to be a judge in his own cause.

-Pascal
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-14-09 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
16. K&R
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