"Health is a basic right in France. In America, it's a market." ....

[slipslidingaway]

http://www.truthout.org/091209G

"...France spends less than 11 percent of GDP on health compared to more than 16 percent in the United States.

Cancer treatment is free. When Genentech developed Avastin, Business Week calculated a year's supply at $48,000 in America. It cost patients nothing in France.

Yes, yes, employers pay high social charges on salaries, and some hypochondriacs abuse the system. But it all works.

Plenty of other models would serve as President Barack Obama's passionate appeals push Congress toward finding a national health plan.

Yet, as Weil says, none is likely to work if American medicine remains defensive, driven by insurance and drug companies. We pay for intervention, not prevention. "Rivers of money are going into a few pockets of people who don't want the system to change," Weil said. "There is a huge apparatus of parasites. This is unsustainable."

That, of course, is the main point. Obama is trying desperately to balance fiercely entrenched interests with intricate compromises that add to costs..."

[aquart]

1. Wouldn't it be better to gut them and take the immediate hit?

Weiner says the health insurance industry shouldn't even exist. I agree with him. Would we really notice more unemployed?

Wouldn't getting health care off the backs of business do more FOR BUSINESS?

[slipslidingaway]

5. Yes, there would be provisions to minimize and retrain workers and Yes. n/t

[Deja Q]

2. Even IBM's own commercials say how France's health care system is SMART

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jmzaivbqRM

[slipslidingaway]

6. Nice :) n/t

[divideandconquer]

7. America is run by the dreaded Ferrenghi

[HysteryDiagnosis]

3. If France keeps this up they will no doubt end up in the dustbin

of history. Amerkins are to a large degree gullible and stupid.

[slipslidingaway]

8. Americans certainly do believe what they are sold ....

the selling of the public option was pure genius.

:(

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/slipslidingaway/63

Uniquely American Solution - What is it ? Why is it being pushed?

Is the goal of the "uniquely American solution" to keep the private health care companies in business and protect their profits? It is not just the Democrats that are using the phrase, Karen Ignagni of AHIP wrote an article in April.

Some talking points from the Herndon Alliance and published on the Third Way site...

[RufusTFirefly]

15. I think the more unsettling group is made up of the gullible ones

I know an alarming number of smart people who are utterly misinformed on this health care question. Granted, the ignorant are usually at the vanguard of such brain-washings, but let's face it: propaganda wouldn't be truly effective if it didn't sway smart people as well. In this respect, the propaganda about health care has been frighteningly successful. In fact, it's really chilling to see how well it has worked.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

4. America makes money out of everything that moves

or anything that's still.

[slipslidingaway]

9. Yes, it's wonderful :(( n/t

[HysteryDiagnosis]

11. Or anyone who is ill. n/t

[suffragette]

10. Weil's points are all so apt

Parasites, indeed.

I'd love to see SwampRat illustrate Weil's quote with the rivers of money, the parasites, etc

[slipslidingaway]

12. With rivers of blood on the other side :( n/t

[suffragette]

13. Sad, but true

Nothing compassionate about these conservatives

[TahitiNut]

14. In a culture that now regards vampires as 'heroes' the ghoulish capitalists reign.

:puke:

[slipslidingaway]

17. They sure do...more for Swamp Rat to illustrate :) n/t

[nightrain]

16. knr. we have yet to address healthcare as a moral issue....

[RufusTFirefly]

19. Absolutely. Progressives and the left need to reclaim the idea of morality

The morally bankrupt hypocrites on the Right have completely distorted the meaning of morality.

We need to restore its true meaning

Torture is immoral
Invading countries without provocation is immoral
Ignoring the sick and needy is immoral
Spoiling the world of our children is immoral

[slipslidingaway]

28. Agreed ! n/t

[keep_it_real]

18. U.N. figures rank France first in health care (United States is 37th, just above Cuba)

That fact goes right over the repuks heads. It's like rocket science to them or the stick their heads up their ass and ignore the facts. Very sad for America and Americans.

[RufusTFirefly]

20. Sorry, but in Murica, faith always trumps fact

If you believe that America has the best health care system, it does. Don't let those tree-hugging, Europe-loving, Brie-eating elites tell you otherwise.

[slipslidingaway]

29. Sad to say, but it also goes over the head of most Democrats :( n/t

[keep_it_real]

21. Was healthcare ever a market in France like in the U.S.?

Did France develop from a healthcare market to healthcare being a right?

[Selatius]

23. The French system was essentially built up from the ashes of World War 2.

Civilian infrastructure was devastated over six years of war and occupation. They basically had a clean slate to start with, and their system is the product of that. I don't know what France's system was like prior to the last world war, but it was gone by the time the war ended.

[Libertas1776]

26. Yes, much of the

cradle to grave systems we see in Europe in France, the UK, and elsewhere were created out of like you say "the ashes of WWII" and basically had a "clean slate" to start over. We here in the US were, both fortunately and unfortunately, largely unaffected by the war, our infrastructure wasn't bombed out and our people weren't clamoring for government services, our short term memories having taken over now that the Depression was officially over. Nothing but blue skies ahead, after all :sarcasm:

[uppityperson]

22. I talked with my French relatives about healthcare, the Extra they pay for beyond taxes

The Extra (whatever the name is, suppliment?) costs them under $100.00/yr per person. One had a nasty cough, got antibiotics and cough medicine for 2Euros each. Visit was 10 or 15 euros copay.

One had a spinal fusion in neck done last yr. The operation, medicine, physical therapy, and ambulance ride home cost zero.

[slipslidingaway]

30. What a difference...thanks n/t

[uppityperson]

32. I'd been wondering about the supplimental they could buy

It was inexpensive. Dental is also included as it should be since that is also a health issue.

[slipslidingaway]

34. My relatives in the UK buy private insurance in addition to the NHS...

I think they said it is about $100. per month for a couple, but it is a different system.

I agree about dental as a health issue.

[David Zephyr]

24. K&R.

That sums up the entire "debate".

[slipslidingaway]

31. Exactly...that is the debate. n/t

[David Zephyr]

25. K&R.

That sums up the entire "debate".

[jtrockville]

27. In America, it's a RACKET! (nt)

[slipslidingaway]

33. Correct, guess the author wanted to be generous :( n/t

[exboyfil]

35. How much does Avastin cost the French government purchaser

of it? How much does Medicare, the other government plans, private insurance, and individuals pay for it (the $48,000 quoted above)? I could not find that number for France.

In the UK they have a different problem. Avastin is not paid for.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/53808bd2-4185-11dd-9661-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1
A dose of reality
By Andrew Jack

Published: June 24 2008 03:00 | Last updated: June 24 2008 03:00

When Karen Gault's treatment for bowel cancer began to fail last year, there was one snag with Avastin, the last-ditch drug that her doctor recommended. The NHS would not pay for it - and officials warned that if she bore the cost of the medicine herself, she would have to take over the funding of her entire treatment.


and a more recent article:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/10069bfc-91bc-11de-879d-00144feabdc0.html?nclick_check=1
Cancer drugs fail to win NHS funding
By Nicholas Timmins, Public Policy Editor

Published: August 26 2009 01:13 | Last updated: August 26 2009 01:13

Four drugs for treating various stages of kidney cancer have been turned down for health service funding in England, in spite of price cuts by the manufacturers.


Canada negotiates better with drug companies:

http://www.pmprb-cepmb.gc.ca/english/View.asp?x=536&mp=117
Introductory Period
Country Price for 25 mg/mL injectable solution
Canada $125.0000
France --
Germany $130.7149
Italy --
Sweden $132.7221
Switzerland $136.5705
U.K. $131.4463
U.S. $186.6446
Median $132.7221

Nova Scotia has dropped out of funding the drug:
http://www.bio-medicine.org/medicine-news/Avastin-Dropped-Out-Of-Funded-Drugs-List-23375-1/
Nova Scotia province of canada has announced that it will fund two additional cancer drugs but leave out colorectal cancer drug, avastin.


An older story from Canada allowing patients to self fund Avastin treatment:
http://www.insurancebyfelix.com/Sites/insurancebyfelixcom/Root/Web/Docs/cancer.pdf

Clinics let cancer patients purchase treatment
Drugs not covered by medicare fetch up to $40,000
LISA PRIEST
From Thursday's 07/12/2006 Globe and Mail
For the first time, cancer patients across Canada will be offered what the
public health-care system has been unable to deliver: intravenous drugs not
covered by medicare for those who want to prolong their lives or fend off a
recurrence -- for a price.
In what could be likened to one-stop shopping, patients can buy cancer medicine not paid for by their
provincial governments, and in some cases, receive financial assistance. Medication will be administered by
a nurse, under a doctor's supervision, in one of 18 infusion clinics across Canada.
Three key players are providing the service: Roche Canada, a drug company that holds the licence for five
cancer products; McKesson Canada, which is administering the program; and Bayshore Infusion Clinics
Inc., which provides clinical staff and medical equipment.
It's not clear how many patients would use the service. However, those requiring Avastin -- a drug proven to
prolong the lives of patients with incurable colorectal cancer -- could tally in the thousands. Drugs to treat
lymphoma and breast cancer would also be available.

I personally feel we should not pay one dollar more than the lowest price charged in the other developed countries. That is one clear way to reduce overall cost in our system. We are paying 50% more than the Canadians, and we have much more buying power in this country.

Drug innovation? Well once the drug companies stop running their crap commercials for lifestyle enhancing drugs, then maybe we can talk. As of now forget them.

[slipslidingaway]

36. Thanks for the additional information, in reading a bit further it appears

that in many cases this particular drug may extend someone's life by months.

Also the biotech companies fought hard for an amendment in the proposed legislation. It would grant them a much longer time period to keep their information from other companies who could develop a "generic" drug, see the data exclusivity amendment.

I agree that we should be able to negotiate better prices for drugs, maybe that is just the American way.


http://stanford.wellsphere.com/healthcare-industry-policy-article/a-foray-into-avastin-gliomas-and-asking-at-what-price/518364

"...It was originally approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration in February of 2004 when a prospective clinical trial involving metastatic colon cancer patients showed Avastin increased survival from 15.6 to 20.3 months. It’s since been approved by the FDA for most types of lung cancer and for metastatic breast cancer. Avastin is NOT approved by the FDA for treatment of brain cancer gliomas, but it is widely used ‘off-label’ for a variety of kinds of cancers.

...Far be it from the DMCB to ‘price’ a living human being, but $90K is a lot of money for progression free or disease free survival that is typically measured in months. That’s true whether health insurers want to keep that money as a return on equity for their investors - or to make not-for-profit health insurance(where I worked)as affordable as possible."


From the comments section...

http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2009/08/debbie-hirst-not-stephen-hawking.html

"...Now, I know some people fear that without the guaranteed huge profits, biopharma might not make the bold investments to keeping expanding the envelope on health care, medications, cures. Before you view Avastin as some magic pill, know that its median benefit is to extend life by 4 months. I told that to my mom, in thinking about my father who died of CRC. "Four months? that's not long at all." And yet we'll pay 10,000s for the drug. The NHS made the calculation: the benefit does not exceed the cost. When the FDA grants a pharma co. the license, they're just saying, "Yes, your drug does marginally more good than harm, so you may sell it if you want." But it doesn't say, when granting you the license, "and, it's good deal." That's something we can't be afraid of answering. Because a mere 5 years ago, this drug did not exist, and we still functioned as a society..."