True or False - Americans who work harder and produce more should earn more and have better lives

[el_bryanto]

Of course theres a catch. If you believe that, you are apparently a conservative, according to Pollster Frank Luntz. You see conservatives believe that hard work should be rewarded, with the implication that liberals don't.

Bryant

[crim son]

1. I like to vote.

According to this notion, both my retired parents would be living crappy lives. So would my disabled niece.

[HelenWheels]

9. You have to take ability and account for retirement

that was my first thought when I saw the poll

[crim son]

12. If the polls said that, I'd have voted differently.

Or maybe not.

[Dr_Willie_Feelgood]

34. The point should be...

...given equivilent positions requiring equivilent skills, which have an equivilent demand, the person who devotes more time and effort should receive more for putting more into it.

This is NOT the same as saying that someone who is retired or disabled should live in the dirt. But someone who shows up late (when they show up at all) and puts in a half-hearted effort does not deserve to be rewarded the same as someone who shows up and performs a quality job.

As far as working with your hands vs working with your brain - while some execs may be living on the golf course, that does not mean all office type positions are easy, stress free cakewalks.

[Odin2005]

16. I have trouble holding a full-time McJob because of my Asperger's, so I guess I'm...

...just a lazy welfare king according to the soulless assholes. :eyes:

[crim son]

40. You got that right.

To the death panel with you! :grr:

[Odin2005]

63. LOL!

[restless native]

57. And in any case, who decides who 'works harder?'

[varelse]

2. The people I know who work the hardest here

are paid the least.

[havocmom]

37. Yep, the 'free market' never works for the worker

And after price shopping for same items over several years, I have come to see it is a myth period. Price fixing, wage stagnation, productivity up, there is NO such thing as free market, or even competition.

A handful of (white) guys at the top decide what people will get paid and what they will pay for product. And those guys are bringing back slavery in calculated increments.

[Deja Q]

75. So none of them are women?

Also, "pay for product": Reading "The Orwell Guide to Business Terminology For the Masses (Fifth Edition)", again? Please use complete grammatical structure as it otherwise sounds tacky.

[Echo In Light]

54. +1

[mmonk]

3. The whole concept is built on the fallacy that only hard working

people become rich and anyone who doesn't doesn't work hard.

[el_bryanto]

4. Yeah it does kind of leave out the Idle Wealthy and those who Inherit

Makes you wonder what's so awful about an inheritance tax.

[LiberalFighter]

68. I think it needs to be pointed out that type of income is UNEARNED.

Meaning they didn't do anything to receive the cash or did very little usually by investing in areas that are generally available to the common person.

[Berry Cool]

22. But isn't that the central conservative fallacy?

That everyone is recompensed according to how hard they work, and if you don't make much money it must be because you don't work hard enough? And if you do, you deserve to keep it all, rather than pay a dime in taxes to help those who can't work or can't find work? And if you're out of work, it can only be because you're a lazy slob who didn't work hard enough at your job, or a blithering incompetent, or you're just lazy and don't want to work?

I mean, they would even justify athlete salaries this way. "That football player deserves every penny of his millions, look at how battered up he gets every week. And look how much public crap he has to take if his team loses. And he can work only a short time before his body gives out. He DESERVES to make more than your kid's fourth-grade teacher." (Forget that the teacher may be taking her life in her hands to work in an inner-city school.) "Managing a whole corporation is a LOT harder than working in the factory. You're in charge of the success or failure of the WHOLE OPERATION. That's a LOT harder than working in one of its factories." (Never mind what kind of horrible accidents could happen to a factory worker while the CEO is out golfing in the afternoon and shooting the shit with the VPs.)

So, in a way, this is a good litmus test for conservatives, although I do think the term "work harder" should be better defined. I mean, I do believe that people who "work harder" deserve more pay, but my definition of "work harder" is probably different from theirs, and also, I don't think people who "work harder" by default "deserve better lives." I mean, kids don't work AT ALL, but don't they deserve at least "good" lives? Also, there are people who "work hard" just to live, even though they can't "work" at all; for some disabled people, getting through every DAY is "hard work."

[LiberalFighter]

5. We need to determine that workiing harder means working harder not

sitting on your ass all day making decisions.

And producing more means producing actual product or parts of the product not thinking about producing the product.

[el_bryanto]

11. Not sure I really agree here

I agree that CEOs are paid far out of proportion to what they actually produce, that said, many of them do add value to the process, and based on their position, may add quite a bit.

Bryant

[tekisui]

36. What about the Investor Class. Those who live off

of dividends and stock profits? I don't consider that work.

[proteus_lives]

43. What if that is the end result?

My folks live off their bonds. But they worked for 30 years before they retired. They chose and invested wisely.

[redqueen]

50. Then you're not rewarding hard work so much as financial luck/wisdom. (nt)

[varelse]

69. True, however

many of them seem more adept at getting in the way of people who actually do make things work (in my personal experience).

[Gwendolyn]

28. Often times the decision making ensures that a company will continue to exist...

and employ people. If no one dreams up the product, then you don't really need people to produce it, do you?

[EndersDame]

6. So Construction and Other Hard Labor Workers Should Make the Most

Since they actually produce stuff and work the hardest(try doing hard physical labor outside in 110 degrees ay yi yi!) Maids ,janitors and waiters should follow on working the hardest

I think that it is a good idea that they should be compensated in relation to the amount of work they put out

[CoffeeCat]

7. In this country, it's not always about how hard...

...you work.

Look at what we pay teachers. They work hard and often spend their own money, just so they
can have the supplies to do their job. Then, look at what we pay Brad Pitt for staring in a movie.

The teacher's annual salary is about a few hours of work for Brad Pitt.

White-collar types are paid more than blue-collar types. We need mechanics just as much as
we need accountants--so it's interesting that we would pay the accountant more.

[Warpy]

8. People who work the hardest in this country get terrible pay

People who do the most essential work--taking care of kids or the elderly, teaching, working in hospitals or food service--often get the worst pay of all.

People who wear suits and sit in air conditioned comfort and keep their hands clean--bankers, stock brokers, upper management--are rewarded most handsomely.

Hard work doesn't pay, often not enough to live on. Soft work pays very well, well enough to buy the government.

Until hard work pays a living wage and soft work pays too little to buy the government, this country will continue to suck for most of us.

[raccoon]

10. At most workplaces, it's the lowest-paid hardest working people, such as janitors,

that you notice the absence of. Hardly anyone notices the absense of vice presidents.

[Berry Cool]

24. One thing's for sure.

If the top execs of a company are gone for a few days, nobody notices. The lower managers are in charge and everyone carries on.

If the janitors of a company are gone for a few days, EVERYBODY notices.

[Odin2005]

13. Everyoner should be guaranteed a livable minimum income, beyond that it should be merit-based.

But I would ban seniority-based pay-increases, I'm sorry, but that crap is a big FU to younger workers.

[el_bryanto]

14. How? If they stick with the company they are eligaible for the same pay increases

And shouldn't loyalty to the company count for something?

Bryant

[Odin2005]

18. It violates the principle of meritocracy.

And the notion of being "loyal" to a private business seems sick to me.

[Zynx]

23. I would say that "merit" is a much mushier term than I gave it credit for.

If improperly defined, as it often is in education, it can be a near tyrannical concept. For example, those who believe that SAT test scores indicate merit overlook the fact that wealthier families can afford to send their kids to very expensive SAT prep classes whereas poorer families can not. Merit to some also means which private high school you went to, which heavily influences which colleges you have a better chance of getting into and therefore your future employment prospects.

[Berry Cool]

25. Besides which, it's not possible to make the choice to be "loyal" anymore

when the business will get rid of YOU at the drop of a hat. It's not even practical.

[el_bryanto]

29. It depends where you work; but this is increasingly the case.

Certainly small - medium businesses can be loyal in some cases.

Bryant

[midnight]

15. That would be true if we had a system that judges work equally.

Don't forget, in 2009 this country finally acknowledge that person's like Lilly Ledbetter had a right to a income equal to her peers who were male. Unfortunately it was her fault that she did not know she was being discriminated in a timely manner.

[raccoon]

17. If hard work made people rich, probably the illegal aliens would be the richest people in the US. nt

[dugaresa]

19. working harder is relative, there are folks on assembly lines and who are working

on their feet all day that may not make much money.

There are men who go golfing all day, have lunch at a club (where company picks up tab) and who make one deal.

Whose working harder?

[Zynx]

20. How does one define worker harder and produce more? Does that assume that pay

actually correlates to value added in the economy?

[HughBeaumont]

31. In a corporatist Republican's mind, yes.

In other words, a person's worth to humanity is almost completely defined and tethered to what he/she earns.

[undeterred]

21. Define "work harder".

[Burma Jones]

26. Well DUH........of course true....but the 'Pukes have turned this concept on its head

by richly rewarding wealth over labor......

[Kaleva]

27. Those who work smarter ought to be rewarded.

I have a family member who is a very hard worker but doesn't accomplish much.

[HughBeaumont]

30. The problem with that is, CONNECTED work pays off more than HARD work does.

Most of the success that the upper echelon pulled off often wasn't because of a definable brand of "hard work". Connections, luck, birth, relatives, surrounding yourself with talented people, social skills, schooling and social circles often play a massive role in how far someone gets in life. All the hard work and hours doesn't mean squat if your wage is a pittance and can't keep up with the cost of living, much less allow you to save. All the time and effort you put into a business isn't going to matter if a corporation immediately undercuts you.

I always resented the implication that all of us are poor simply because we "don't work hard enough" when poor people are some of the hardest workers I've ever seen. Many of us spend half to 3/4 of our day doing something work related; whether it's commuting, the job itself, added work from the job or schooling to improve our career prospects.

We're trained to be cubeslaves almost from the time we set foot into elementary school. We're not trained to think creatively (unless it benefits your employer), but merely to regurgitate feasible solutions within an hour's time. Love of learning doesn't factor in, because the schedule given and the kind you'll have in your future fabric box doesn't allow for it. Being able to attend college is only going to get more difficult as life goes on, what with no liquidity for student loans and companies cutting tuition reimbursement.

[TxRider]

45. So it's not just working harder, it's also working smarter.

[redqueen]

51. "connected" does not mean "smart" (nt)

[BoneDaddy]

32. yes and no

I have a friend who puts in 14 hour days at Barclay bank and makes multiple millions a year and I have a friend who puts in 14 hour days roofing. Who is working harder and are they compensated equally?

But on a very basic level the answer is YES. You get what you put into life. Working hard is not a bad thing and has been the basis of any success story. ON the flip side, not working should not be rewarded.

[FormerDittoHead]

33. Luntz thinks working hard is a 'conservative' thing? Good catch. n/t

[el_bryanto]

35. Yeah he was on Hannity Radio show yesterday

The interview innervated me as he and Hannity proclaimed this a right wing country based on such dubious explanations.

Bryant

[Unvanguard]

38. Certainly not, at least not as a principle of justice.

They should be given what they are promised.

I've never understood the point of "rewarding" hard work. If someone works hard because he or she is promised rewards, and then he or she is denied them, that is an injustice. If someone chooses to work hard despite not having been promised anything, it hardly seems wrong to not reward him or her with any special benefits.

(It is also, of course, an injustice when some people have to work hard for what others get for nothing.)

[LWolf]

39. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. nt

[el_bryanto]

44. So single people should be paid less than married people with children? n/t

[LWolf]

70. Is that what you think?

Or is that an assumption you are making?

I don't think that quote applies to group income. We could argue it, but I don't see a good reason to.

For the sake of the poll, I'm not referring to group income or needs, but to individual.

[Bluerthanblue]

41. who judges this?

and what is "the reward"?

In this society, people aren't financially rewarded according to how strenuously or diligently they work- if that were true, many undocumented workers would be millionaires, and many CEO's would be collecting Food Stamps.

What is the real reward? Lots of money, stuff and attention? Or the knowledge that what you are doing makes a difference in the world, and the joy of doing something with your life that is more than a means to a paycheck- but rather something that brings satisfaction and contentment?

[Sparkly]

42. The false assumption is that hard work = produce more = earn more

Hard work is NOT necessarily correlated with wealth. There are single mothers working two minimum-wage jobs and barely getting by; there are also fatcats who can lounge poolside while their inherited money makes more money.

[Kaleva]

46. One can argue that the single mother working 2 jobs may be producing something of far greater value

[AlienGirl]

52. On that false premise rests the whole Randroid philosophy. nt

[AldebTX]

47. I totally believe

If you work hard you should be rewarded. However, I also believe you should not be subsidised, pay less taxes then the average American, and get huge write offs to make that money.

Making money does not entitle you to "special" rights.

[comtec]

48. Thats a tricky one...

What I do at work, exactly 3 other people in Europe do.
One is my colleague, one is the guy who used to do this (now in marketing making more money than GOD) and the 4th is at another company happily doing something completely different.

what's my value compared to one of the factory worker?
I have days where I do literally NOTHING because no one calls in with a problem (like over the summer, tier 3 i very boring).

When it's busy I am very busy doing very complex things.

I have always worked in IT, it took the company 2 YEARS to "find me" - mainly because I'm really under paid for what I do and no ITer wanted that low of a income - and another year to find my cohort.

It took 3-months just to train either of us up to the point we could answer basic emails, 6 months before we were competent, and a year before we were actually GOOD at what we do - and we're smart! (ok i had it all down in 4, but im really smart;) )

I have not had a raise in the 3 years I have been at the company. I started as a contractor, and when I started a new string (long story) with the company my hourly actually went down (but my travel and health compensation went up considerably + pension)

Merely by still being here, I am competent, and merit a pay raise. I have NOT done anything that cost the company a contract, and I have in fact UP-sized a few. What is my value?

I have nothing against factory work. I LIKE factory work to be honest and would do it if they'd let me, when it's slow - but literally i'm not allowed because "My position is too important" blah!

I work, but I don't break my back. I know in 50 years nothing I do will be remembered, unlike a builder, or a brick layer, whose work, however small the contribution, will probably be.

I think this question is very divisive because it pits us middle and lower class workers against one another! Middle class is either union grunt (and I swear I mean that in greatest respect) work or white collar grunt work - generally non-union.
"lower" class is simply the rest - distinctively hard to live on, lower pay.

upper is generally very cushy work. I mean high-level acting? c'mon, no one is so good they are worth a million+ dollars a year, no one.

Ever notice that all upper-class work is actually pretty pansy?

[AngryAmish]

49. I don't like to work and so don't do it much

Just make sure when you do work you get paid a lot for it. Jobs are for suckers.

[AlienGirl]

53. What are they producing?

I don't have a problem with people making a profit, as long as everyone's taken care of.

For that matter, I think that people who have to deal with squishy, stinky things deserve to make extra money. This includes doctors and nurses, garbage collectors, and sewer workers. They do those crap jobs so I don't have to.

Tucker

[Kievan Rus]

55. The sad thing is, it often doesn't work that way in our hypercapitalist system

[Romulox]

56. Money = virtue. It's my "prosperity gospel"!

:sarcasm:

[Warren DeMontague]

58. I think Frank Luntz should win the "Worst Hair Helmet of the 21st Century" award.

Runner Up, Sean Hannity.

[El Fuego]

59. Wealthy conservatives only want their minions to believe that.

They need a slave class to work tirelessly to make money for them.

[devilgrrl]

60. The people that clean our offices work harder than any white collar big wig in the building

And they get paid squat.

Luntz hasn't worked a day in his life.

[lumberjack_jeff]

61. Where's the option for "those who work less hard than me should starve

and have no healthcare"?

That's the Frank Luntz conservative demographic.

[pitohui]

62. "SHOULD" but will never happen, we are most productive, europeans live longer and have better lives

conservatives do not believe hard work should be rewarded, they believe it should be punished

we are the most productive country on earth, yet we are far down on the list of longevity, health benefits, retirement benefits, vacation time -- the europeans are far ahead of us and will likely remain forever ahead of us, getting richer and richer, while we americans are just working cattle -- the benefits of our productivity are stolen and kept by the few richest of the rich because we are unwilling to fairly share the benefits of our hard work

no conservative wants me to have the benefits of working and contributing to our being the most productive nation on earth, they want to (literally) drop and die as soon as i'm too sick to keep up, i know this for a fact having gone 15 years w.out health care

only an irresponsible person would be self-employed/entrepreneur in america, because if you get sick/injured, you lose everything and your family loses everything

i'm sick and tired of the lies

our reward for being the most productive is the unending hell of wondering just when we'll drop and have everything stolen from us by the health care "industry" and at the end of the day we have shorter lives

conservatives want us to be slaves and cattle, you know it, and i know it, not sure what value there is to giving any attention to slanted "polls" that only fool the stupid people -- it is unfortunate that so many people are stupid, but they have stupid people in europe too, the difference is that stupid people and religious hysterics are laughed at as the clowns they are

what we need in america is more honesty and more laughter, and less of the god fraud

[SalviaBlue]

64. Republicans are delusional. They think that sitting in a corporate

board room thinking up ways to profit off the suffering of others is hard work.

[el_bryanto]

65. How many people have that particular job?

Is that the majority of executives in America?

Bryant

[SalviaBlue]

66. Not many.

The rest of the peons are just very good at following instructions from their superiors on hate radio and faux news and have been convinced that because they are rich they must work harder than a poorer person.

Delusional and Stupid.

[guitar man]

67. If only that were true

I'd be a billionaire right now if all it took was hard work. I'd dare say I have worked as hard as anybody and harder than most and have jack shit to show for it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

71. Produce what? As a former worker, I think it is highly overrated as a pastime.

[anonymous171]

72. I think hard work should be rewarded. The problem is that 99% of the rich are lazy assholes

and they are still somehow wealthy. Traditional values are being corrupted by modern capitalism.

[Deja Q]

73. Well then. Maybe Rush Limbaugh is the BIGGEST liberal of them all?

No pun even remotely intended; that bag of hot air and methane sits and bickers into a microphone all day - for $38 million.

Yeah, that's work.

:sarcasm:

People who maintain network servers have far more responsibility, for far, far, far less pay.

People who cut hair off of doggies have far more responsibility.

People who clean toilets have far more responsibility.

[The Gunslinger]

74. I know plenty of people who "work hard" and make minmum wage

And will always make low wages. Working hard should be rewarded but rarely is.