Not All Home-Schoolers Are Rightwing Fundies.

[KittyWampus]

I know of one artist who is a Wiccan and lives with her family in a very red part of Ohio. Her daughter was home-schooled and turns out to be bright as a penny and a talented performer.

AFAIK, the Home-schooling trend started with Hippies back in the day.

For some reason, there is an impression that all home-schoolers are rightwing Fundies. Not true.

Home-schooling works for liberal families who are in very red areas, in areas with below-par schools, with kids who have health issues etc.

It'd be terrific if anyone into public education policy or home-schooling would be able to tell us if there're numbers breaking down what percent of home-schoolers are Fundies and which are more liberal.

Does anyone have data about how home-schooling families self identify?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

1. IIRC, Ava was homeschooled. She is now at NYU.

[KamaAina]

95. +1 for Ava!

One of our finest. :yourock:

[Dogtown]

2. Exceptions to the rule

Noteworthy, but the overwhelming bulk of home-schoolers are unqualified nutbag fundies. Home-schooling should be outlawed.

[KittyWampus]

4. Unless you have some actual data, I'd suggest you are full of hooey.

[endarkenment]

29. Where is your actual data?

I don't see any. So why does the contrary position: that the vast majority of homeschoolers are fundaloons have to substantiate that claim?

[Bluerthanblue]

where is YOUR data?

your bigotry is ugly.

:thumbsdown:

[Bluerthanblue]

edit Dupe n/t

[KittyWampus]

39. My OP says "not ALL home schoolers".

[endarkenment]

45. And nobody is claiming 'all'.

[sfwriter]

64. Well, for one... It is ignorant in my experience...

The position that "all are" anything needs a lot of support in any context. When speaking of something that I have experience with, I feel completely free to say you are wrong.

I have been involved with secular home schooling in San Francisco and Springfield, MO. Amongst the non-fundie set, I have not encountered anyone matching this claim. Among the Fundies, I have, but my experience with diversity of home schoolers tells me I shouldn't paint them with too broad a brush either.

[Dogtown]

52. I toss your disrespect

back in your face.

Why don't you proffer some stats to disprove me? Else, we can trade opinions back and forth, and your's carries no weight with me.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

156. I suspect that any survey that doesn't include a category....

...of "right-wing Nazi racist hood wearing nutjobs" will be enough to satiate your desire to see numbers. :rofl:

[sense]

159. ignorance

Some home schoolers are fundies, let's outlaw home schooling. What an idiot.

[cherokeeprogressive]

199. YOU made the claim. YOU provide the stats.

That's how it works.

[TxRider]

5. Not in my experience

Most are just parents who want a better education than their public school provides.

You know, a high school grad who can actually read and comprehend?

[Dogtown]

72. My experience differs.

I graduated from an inner-city high-school with some proficiency in expressing myself. I also learned to think for myself, not just blindly accept my parents' belief system.

[TxRider]

112. That's great for you

I suffered through a Texas public school system, and was kicked out forcibly at 16

And I also have some proficiency in expressing myself. I also learned to think for myself.

A question for you. How many home schooled adults do know well enough to form an educated opinion about?

Or is "thinking for yourself" simply an exercise in reading talking points and third hand information for you?

[sense]

160. So?

Doesn't qualify you to judge people you know nothing about. Every single home schooling family does whatever works for them. There is no one way to do it and most people don't just bring "school" home when it wasn't working at school.

[Ex Lurker]

138. I know a home schooling family

it would be a stretch to call them progressive, but they are definitely middle of the road politically, and secular humanist philosophically. They home school their son because the school system wanted to diagnose him ADD/ADHD and medicate him.

[TxRider]

141. I'll give an example as well.

A friend of mine. He attended the same public school I did.

He has two children he intends to home school.

I think he's a christian, hard to say as I have never spoken about religion with him.

He holds a law degree and is a self employed engineer who works from home largely.

His wife is a college grad that stays at home.

I have no doubt whatsoever his kids will receive a better education than they would in a public school, and I have no doubt they will experience a much better social environment.

[Rebubula]

7. Well...

...good thing that you are not in charge.

What a ridiculous idea - outlawing freedom. How is this idea even close to progressive?

[seabeyond]

10. goes along with not hiring cause homschooled or a christian. nope

not very progressive.

[Dogtown]

66. Education should not be restricted to

concepts approved only by Bible-thumping autocrats. "Freedom" is the most-often abused word in the RW lexicon, parroting it as a justification for keeping children ignorant is an example of that abuse.

[sfwriter]

70. RWingers don't own Freedom...

and thankfully, neither do you.

[Dogtown]

79. Well, now!

Nice pontification. And yet, I don't feel at all enlightened.

Enjoy that pedestal.

[sfwriter]

84. You had just stepped off...

So it is nice and warm, yes.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

158. But it's already been pointed out that there are progressives who home-school

Your sweeping judgement tells them to go F themselves as well.

[sense]

161. What a bizarre thing to say.

Why don't you educate yourself about the topic before exposing yourself as completely ignorant.

[Odin2005]

176. With an attitude like that you are no liberal, you are an authoritarian.

Despicable.

[Beer on a stick]

self delete dupe

[Beer on a stick]

12. Why should it be outlawed?

[Dogtown]

65. That's better than the combative responses so far.

I feel that it should be outlawed because:

1. There's presently (at least in this state) no requirement for a home-schooling parent to be actually educated. Anecdotally, of the 6 families w/ school age children on my block, only one has a "degree", and that is from Bob Jones U. HARDLY a real education.

2. It deprives students of the necessary socialization that is a secondary function of a class-room environment.

3. Home-schooling can often lead to a lack of opposing viewpoints, leaving the student with only one source of information.

4. It can, and has, been used to mask the effects of abuse. Abusers are frequently (but not often enough) exposed by *legitimate* school teachers.

[sfwriter]

81. And...

1. There's presently (at least in this state) no requirement for a home-schooling parent to be actually educated. Anecdotally, of the 6 families w/ school age children on my block, only one has a "degree", and that is from Bob Jones U. HARDLY a real education.

The quality of a child's education varies greatly depending on the parent in ANY environment. Degrees are irrelevant.

2. It deprives students of the necessary socialization that is a secondary function of a class-room environment.

This statement is only true for very backward home schoolers. Most work within other structures for far more dynamic socialization. In school, socialization is regimented and confined to specific times withing specific age-specific groups. In my experience, our home schooled friends have a much more divers group of friends by age and interest than the strictly public schooled children.

3. Home-schooling can often lead to a lack of opposing viewpoints, leaving the student with only one source of information.

Please cite five examples to support the "often lead to" in this opinion.

My experience is that when combined with a diverse set of other home schoolers and public schoolers the home school kid comes out on top.

Critical thinking, questioning authority, and standing up for yourself and understanding why your situation is different are all basic facts of life for MOST of the homeschoolers I have met, read or encountered. Now mind you, I do secular, not bat-shit-crazy religious, but the religious home schoolers I meet are at about 50-50 on this one. There is far more time for discussion in a home schooled home and that carries over to the entire social structure.

Contrast with teacher says it, you repeat it, move on that makes up large portions of the day in public school. In grade school, my experience was one desk all day and don't talk too much. There was no diversity of opinion. My curriculum was approved by a board made up of fundies and there was no interaction with anyone outside my grade. I saw no diversity in that.

Homeschool debate groups are often cited as being wicked good at it. But then again, I don't hang out with the Bob Jones U. types you cite when wanting to outlaw this small freedom I have to fight the limited and ever more corporate public school experience.


4. It can, and has, been used to mask the effects of abuse. Abusers are frequently (but not often enough) exposed by *legitimate* school teachers.

Abusers are also exposed by Sunday School Teachers, should we outlaw not going to Sunday school? Abusers are frequently unmasked by Social Workers. Should we require everyone to see social workers? Abusers are frequently discovered by athletics coaches. Should we require everyone to play soccer.


The only restrictions I would support are educational standards be met, records kept, and I would support regular testing, but most of my peers in home schooling do not. My state does the first two, so I am good.

I think you attack the concept of home schooling because you think it hurts fundies. You haven't said anything about home schooling that doesn't cast a lot of fear on the subject around fundies.

Read a bit wider and you will find it isn't all ignorance and child abuse going on.

[TxRider]

110. Very well stated.

[Dogtown]

111. Support your statements, please.

All you've done is stated opinion. That's the objection you've made to my original. Unless you can back up those statements with citations, they're worthless, according to the dicta you'd like to impose.

[TxRider]

115. How's this?

http://www.academicleadership.org/emprical_research/State_Regulation_of_Homeschooling_and_Homeschoolers_SAT_Scores.shtml

[Viking12]

146. Umm, that's not a comaprative analysis between homeschool vs. public school

It's a comparative analysis of home schools that are regulated vs. home schools that are not.

Did you pick up your reading comprehension skills in a home school?

[TxRider]

157. But it is peer reviewed to some extent and presents relevant data

I guess you didn't read it...

"Dozens of studies have been completed during the past 25 years that examine the academic achievement of the home-educated. Examples of these studies range from a multi-year study in Washington State to three nationwide studies across the United States to two nationwide studies in Canada (Ray, 1994, 1997, 2000b, 2001, 2005; Rudner, 1999; Van Pelt, 2003; Wartes, 1991). The home educated in grades K to 12 have scored, on average, at the 65th to 80th percentile on standardized academic achievement tests in the United States and Canada, compared to the public school average of the 50th percentile."

"A few studies have addressed the performance of homeschool students on measures of academic aptitude (e.g., for success in college) or those that mix aptitude and achievement. For example, Belfield (2005) found the homeschooled to have SAT college-admission scores higher than private-religious school and public-school students but lower than private-independent school students. After controlling for certain background variables, however, he found that “… the predicted SAT-total scores for home-schoolers and private-independent school students converge toward the mean: the home-school premium over private-religious school students falls almost to zero” (p. 174). Belfield concluded the following: “So far at least, the results do not indicate home-schoolers are at a disadvantage” (p. 174)."

I could find more and likely better material,it's certainly not that difficult. But I wasn't prepared to spend more than a few minutes on the topic. Being a person who decided not to have any children long ago, and at age 50 I'm not likely to have any now.

I assumed that if the reader was that interested, they could simply follow the cited studies that mentioned in the text I quoted above.

[Viking12]

193. A 43% acceptance rate? yeah, real rigourous "peer-reviewed" journal there...

[TxRider]

200. VS an opinion pulled out of ones ass, yes..

Back it up with better data that contradicts it.

meanwhile here's some more to chew on...

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp

http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/apply/homeschooled_applicants_helpful_tips/homeschooled_applicants.shtml

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000000/00000017.asp

http://www.vineyardesigns.com/moms/homeschooling/college_acceptance.shtml

http://www.homeedmag.com/INF/OH/oh_cc.clgadmin.html

http://www.oakmeadow.com/resources/articles/WSJArticle.htm

http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/20000501homeschool5.asp

http://www.homeschool.com/articles/LaurelSprings5/default.asp

http://www.homeschool.com/new/faq.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling#Test_results

[Beer on a stick]

129. Wait a minute, that's all you've done. You've given zero data....

and just expressed that 'feel' it should be outlawed for certain reasons that you failed to provide any support for.

[WildEyedLiberal]

147. Where is YOUR support for your statements?

You're demanding that everyone else provide "citations" - where the hell are yours? All you've offered is your personal bias and some anecdotes - which someone as obviously educated as you should know are worthless as "evidence."

[Odin2005]

177. Authoritarians don't feel the need to prove things, just make people obey their BS.

[sense]

162. All very well researched

Thank you for stating it so well.

[Maat]

204. You're quite right, Sfwriter!

I worked for Child Protective Services for seven years, and retired. My relative is still working there. Both of us have handled thousands of cases together. Neither one of us has EVER seen a case of homeschooling being used to cover for abuse. What utter nonsense!

[tigereye]

124. none of those statements are true in the main

At least here in PA - the curriculum is developed by teachers and used by parents to teach the kids. Many home-schooled kids reach a very high academic level. There is a fair amount of regulation here, can't speak for other states, such as where you live.

Many home-schoolers develop social activity networks with other kids and have good social skills.

Good curriculum and discussion of view-points leads to broad views and challenging view-points- that's what good education is.

I can't speak to the stats of whether it masks abuse, that's one I haven't heard. Sounds like an artifact to me.

[Odin2005]

174. Abuse? I suffer from PTSD because of that "socialization", AKA "BULLYING"!!!

By both peers AND faculty. "Socialization" is a BS argument that is a euphemism for "social engineering" and "corporatist indoctrination".

If I have kids I will certainly homeschool them. If you don't like that, fuck off!

[kegler14]

17. Outlawed??? I think not.

[Dogtown]

62. If only your opinion mattered to me...

Since it doesn't I'll repeat mine: Home-schooling should be outlawed.

[kegler14]

88. If only it mattered that my opinion doesn't matter to you.

Anybody who wants to outlaw homeschooling obviously cares not the least about the rights of others.

[sfwriter]

98. Ignorance always sounds better when it is louder?

I mean that seems to be the point you are making.

[sense]

164. The sound of a mind snapping shut!

[sfwriter]

82. Dogttown's just throwing stones... no interest in the outcome.

I think he is probably surprised at how much venom home schoolers have had to develop to fight for their rights. I suspect his original intention was just to bash fundies and get an "atta-boy" out of this and it got away from him.

He had no idea.

[Dreamer Tatum]

94. That happens way too often here

"All X is Y!!! Can I get a high five? Do you all agree? Do you all now LIKE me? Huh? Huh?"

[Dreamer Tatum]

20. Unempirical BS should be outlawed.

But then, only outlaws would spout unempirical BS, which would make you Jesse James.

[Dogtown]

61. In empiric circles, my unsupported statement would carry no weight

I suggest you confine yourself to academia , and let normal folks carry on in their informal discussion group without the burden of pedantry.

I bet there's a reason your pissing around here, instead of the hallowed halls of peer-review.

:eyes:

[sfwriter]

73. Oh, I get it... DON'T take Dogtown seriously. He is just picking a fight...

I thought you meant what you said. Now I see that you don't actually expect your words to hold weight.

My bad for taking you seriously.

[Dogtown]

80. Not much of a fight.

I always mean what I say. I certainly don't care if *you* take my statements seriously or not. Nor do I derive any satisfaction from giving your ilk a verbal drubbing. If someone were to voice a serious objection, with out using meaningless "talking points", I'd enjoy the conversation.

"Freedom" is such an ambiguous and trite phrase when used in this context that it's bereft of meaning.

[Dreamer Tatum]

91. "Talking points" is the new battle cry of the defeated

So now if someone asks you for data that doesn't come coated with your fecal matter, that person is going to spout "talking points?"

I so fear a "verbal drubbing" (psst...we're not talking, we're typing) from you. Bring it on, but bring the data to support your claim, too.

[Dogtown]

109. Sorry, Tatum

I don't banter with sockies.

[sfwriter]

96. Talking Points?

You really are in the deep water now, struggling to stay afloat. You just had no idea, did you?

[Dogtown]

107. Jabberwocky

[sfwriter]

24. FU pal... (In the friendliest possible way.)

I home school and I'm an atheist. I don't want my kids facing the boredom, bullying, age based segregation, authoritarian indoctrination, corporate messaging, historical distortion, religious pressure, and crazy athletic cultishness of public schools.

I can't afford private school, therefore I home school.

Not everyone will agree with me, so I'm glad public schools are there and gladly support standards for school performance and the performance of home-schooled children.

Your blanket statement makes me think you haven't thought this through.

[librechik]

54. word!--my kids were hippie homeschooled too--and they turned out great

little liberal humanists--Our public school experience was an authoritarian dud. And we were in the gifted program!

[uncle ray]

99. and there is the rub.

your kids turned out just like you wanted them to. think about that a bit. i have no problem with your kids turning out to be great little liberal humanists, but part of what bothers anti home schoolers, is that was your plan, just like the right wingers plan to brainwash their kids into little evangelical authoritarian drones. had your children attended public school, sure there may have been a chance they might have turned out "wrong", but i'm confident they would have been richer from the experience of being exposed to more views. though school was years ago for me, and despite the improvements i too feel can be made in public education, i still appreciate the views and idea presented to me by all of my teachers, even the right wing nuts. it always seems to come down to parents wanting their children to follow their chosen plan, and not be influenced by others, which is by nature, quite authoritarian.

i appreciate the concerns people have with the public education system. i wish more would work to improve it for ALL children, even the ones who's parents don't have the resources to home school.

[litlady]

130. totally agreed!

My mom was a liberal but clearly could not home school. She was a single mom and she didn't get home until 5 or 6 each day so she could support us. So I went to nothing but public school and I think I turned out okay. :)

[librechik]

142. no--I hardly guided them at all--just gave them original sourcesand let

them make up their own minds. As Stephen says, truth has a liberal bias.

That is all.

[Dogtown]

56. That's one incident, proven only

anecdotally. At best, your post merely supports my statement. Do you think that "most" home-schoolers are atheist with your specific concerns?

You're an atheist home-schooler, nutbaggery unproven-but-possible; hence, excluded from the "most" I posited. In what way does that negate my statement?


Friendly or nut, I find your "fuck you" offensive and unnecessarily rude.

[sfwriter]

67. You are the one being ofensive...

When you call for outlawing something and taking away our family's freedom.

My experience also encompasses eight families locally, and other dozen on the west coast, some pretty wide reading on the topic.

And to contrast we have your blanketly offensive opinion that it should be OUTLAWED. So again, please put up or shut up. What are you basing your statement on? Why should I sit idly by while you say such unsupported nonsense?

[Dogtown]

78. My opinion is "blanketly" offensive?

Who have I "blanketed"?

"My experience also encompasses eight families locally, and other dozen on the west coast, some pretty wide reading on the topic."

I sincerely hope your children aren't laboring under the yoke of your "freedom". If so, they are probably as inarticulate as you are.

Try: "My experience includes eight local families, another dozen families on the west coast, and a some self-education on the topic through extensive readings."

You *should* sit idly by and read my carefully parsed sentences, rather than prove my point with your inability to express your point of view with any clarity. You haven't refuted my post, you've merely exposed your own limitations. Have you enjoyed the "freedom" of home-schooling? It would seem so...

BTW, your personal experience of a total of 20 families (out of the millions of families with school-age children) is no more "supported" than my statement and beliefs.

[sfwriter]

86. I'm sorry, did I miss your wanting HS outlawed.

You just had no idea what you were getting into, did you?

[Dogtown]

105. I knew full well

that those with an agenda would attempt a feeding frenzy. Since I'm *not* home-schooled, nor otherwise limited in my ability for creative thought, I knew no difficult challenge would be mounted.

"I'm sorry, did I miss your (sic) wanting HS outlawed." Should read, "I'm sorry, did I miss *you* wanting HS outlawed*?*" Corrections noted by asterisks.

I'd suggest that you proof-read before you post, but it would serve no purpose. I don't think you would've spotted your errors with a dozen attempts.

Yours is a vile phrase, intended no doubt to be cuttingly sarcastic, but it actually doesn't express any clear thought.

As to your cliche-ish barb that I'm unprepared, it's YOU that picked a fight without being properly armed for the level of conflict. I knew exactly what to expect. Ignorance, miss-spelling, and poorly expressed spitefulness.

[Bluerthanblue]

113. you ARE limited in your ability to think

creatively as demonstrated by your inability to understand perspectives that differ with yours. You also appear to have quite a high opinion of your own mastery of the english language, and have compromised your ability to interact with others others in positive and effective ways.

You admit that you were not home schooled, and aren't home schooling, so what actual value does your opinion have in a discussion about how home schoolers "self identify"?

[Ghost in the Machine]

120. *YOU* should proof-read your own posts before correcting anyone else, dude..

Dogtown (1000+ posts) Tue Sep-15-09 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #20
61. In empiric circles, my unsupported statement would carry no weight
I suggest you confine yourself to academia , and let normal folks carry on in their informal discussion group without the burden of pedantry.

I bet there's a reason your pissing around here, instead of the hallowed halls of peer-review.

Just sayin'....

[Odin2005]

180. You bigotry is showing.

So Ava is not capable of "creative thought", eh? :eyes:

[Bluerthanblue]

93. you are proof that one can be highly intelligent and yet very

stupid.

Are you familiar with Howard Gardner:
"If we all had exactly the same kind of mind and there was only one kind of intelligence, then we could teach everybody the same thing in the same way and assess them in the same way and that would be fair. But once we realize that people have very different kinds of minds, different kinds of strengths -- some people are good in thinking spatially, some in thinking language, others are very logical, other people need to be hands on and explore actively and try things out -- then education, which treats everybody the same way, is actually the most unfair education. Because it picks out one kind of mind, which I call the law professor mind -- somebody who's very linguistic and logical -- and says, if you think like that, great, if you don't think like that, there's no room on the train for you."

Your train is too small-

:shrug:

[Bluerthanblue]

71. word.

:hi:

[wicket]

127. Well said

:thumbsup:

[girl gone mad]

150. Ignore the haters.

My son is the embodiment of everything that is right with home schooling. I know I'm biased, but he absolutely blows me away with the depth of his knowledge and creativity. He is light years ahead of where I was at his age, emotionally, socially and intellectually. We have no regrets about the decision to home school. There are so many social and educational options available to children these days that a parent would have to work very hard to keep their child isolated and uninformed.
'

[Odin2005]

178. +1

[hamsterjill]

194. What about when they become working adults?

You wrote:

"I home school and I'm an atheist. I don't want my kids facing the boredom, bullying, age based segregation, authoritarian indoctrination, corporate messaging, historical distortion, religious pressure, and crazy athletic cultishness of public schools."


When these children grow up and go out into the work force to look for a job, won't they then possibly be facing boredom, bullying, age based segregation, authoritarian indoctrination, corporate messaging, historical distortion, religious pressure and crazy athletic cultishness?

Wouldn't it be better for most children, generally, to have had an education that provided a background for them to learn to deal effectively with those things you listed, rather than to have been sheltered away and have those things hit them in the face on their first day of work? I mean, the corporate world that most of us have to exist within as a means of having a job isn't perfect, and those things certainly do exist in many job situations.

I realize (from some other threads particularly) that this is a heated topic. And let me stipulate that I do believe a parent has a right to educate his/her children in the way he/she feels best. I'm not trying to be argumentative; I would like to know your answer.

[TxRider]

201. Think about it for a second...

Was high school life anything like what you experienced after leaving high school?

Most would say it was a quite different world I think... To step out into College or the work force.


As for learning how to deal. What's better, learning from a group of kids, cliques, bullying, sexting, basically "how to deal with others the schoolyard way"...

Or learning from an adult the proper and intelligent way to deal with others in the real world, not a school yard? The terms "School yard bully" and "School yard politics" etc. are coined for a reason.

[hamsterjill]

202. Was I the only one who had a positive high school experience?

Yes, a lot of what I learned in high school (and elementary) prepared me for dealing with life situations. I learned to deal with challenges as an independent person rather than dealing with those challenges with my mother or father right there to protect me.

[SPedigrees]

30. I agree. Back in the day, to be a home school teacher you needed a degree.

There also used to be a requirement for necessity ie exigent circumstances such as a child employed as an actor, and the job had to be filled by a qualified tutor.

Even in the case of a qualified parent, a home schooled child is going to miss out on learning important social skills, how to relate to strangers, how to play fair with others, exposure to a variety of people and diverse ideas. Most home schooled children grow up without a complete grasp of how the world works.

Parents ARE teachers (or if they are doing their job right, they should be) but their role should co-exist with the classroom.

[TxRider]

42. Baloney

Home schooled kids miss out on what exactly?

One on one instruction instead of 30 on one instruction?

They don't live in neighborhoods where they play with other kids?

They are locked in a closet and never see the outside world, chained to the wall?

Or is it they miss the cliques and bullying and class system kids suffer at schools?

The lord of the flies social system kids experience with huge class sizes and not enough supervision?

Wouldn't want to deny kids that by all means. Outlaw it..

I'm sure George Washington and Ben Franklin's parents were accredited teachers.

[SPedigrees]

57. As one who attended both private and public schools

and who also had parents who took an active role in my education via helping me with homework and school projects, introducing me to the natural world, the arts, and scientific discovery through family trips to museums, zoos, the seashore, other areas of the country and out of the country, teaching me how to read maps while in the car, make phone calls, write thank you notes and letters, and introducing me to the democratic process by taking me into the voting booth with them, etc., I can attest to the difference between what I learned from this "adjuvant home-schooling" (and I learned much from them) versus what I learned in the classroom.

In the classroom one must wait one's turn to speak, compete with 20 or so other students to get called on, etc. Each teacher introduces new rules, new methods. This is all part of the education we all need for future employment and social situations.

There is also a vast difference between a limited pool of playmates who live next door and the diversity of classmates one interacts with in a school situation.

A formal education in no way impairs a parent's ability to teach. The more experiences a child is exposed to in their early years, the richer their education will be, along with their ability to function in different situations and settings in adulthood.

[TxRider]

103. In my experience

Kids at school only socialized within small groups of friends anyway. Outside of those groups the interaction is not always pleasant and quite frequently unpleasant. Some kids are scarred for life by "socialization" at public schools.

I think it's completely ridiculous to stand on the side of banning home schooling due to some idea public schools are required for adequate social experience.

Schools are for education. Education and thinking skills are the question.

I could argue quite effectively that the socialization aspect of public schools is actually more harmful than helpful these days.

Of course that also depends entirely on the parent doing the home schooling.

[SPedigrees]

118. I never said that interaction with others must always be pleasant.

----Kids at school only socialized within small groups of friends anyway. Outside of those groups the interaction is not always pleasant and quite frequently unpleasant.----

I never said that interaction with others must always be pleasant. Many things in life are not pleasant, but we must learn to deal with life's unpleasantries in order to be able to succeed at life.

--Schools are for education. Education and thinking skills are the question.---

Social kills and proper decorum in a large group are a part of education. Otherwise we might end up a society of rude Joe Wilsons and/or painfully shy people who cannot tolerate criticism and cannot function in a crowd.

[TxRider]

122. Agreed.

But it might well be better in the supervised setting of home schooling, than learned by observing other children at a school.

So being segregated into same age groups, segregated into small cliques, jocks bullying nerds, everyone bullying gays, and all the other things that emanate from a setting of a few thousand kids with a 30-1 Adult to kid ratio is a better way to do that?

Everything I've read shows the opposite of your view.

Everything from the ratio of fundies being relatively small, to home school parents being more educated than average, to home schooled kids outperforming public school children in every way measured.

And get this, studies also show that among these home schooled kids who achieve on average 30% or so higher in SAT and other measures of achievement, there is zero racial gap between whites and minorities who are home schooled and minorities who are home schooled share the above average achievement scores.

[TxRider]

126. Here's another point of view

John Taylor later found, using the Piers-Harris Children's Self-Concept Scale,

"while half of the conventionally schooled children scored at or below the 50th percentile (in self-concept), only 10.3% of the home-schooling children did so."<72>

He further stated that "the self-concept of home-schooling children is significantly higher (and very much so statistically) than that of children attending the conventional school.

This has implications in the areas of academic achievement and socialization, to mention only two. These areas have been found to parallel self-concept.

Regarding socialization, Taylor's results would mean that very few home-schooling children are socially deprived. He states that critics who speak out against home schooling on the basis of social deprivation are actually addressing an area which favors home schoolers.[72

[Odin2005]

181. I have PTSD because of those "unpleasantries"

"unpleasantries"? Is that what they call bullying by peers and emotional abuse from faculty now?

[Dogtown]

49. Nicely put, SPedigrees

The current lack-of-system is ripe for abuse.

[RaleighNCDUer]

50. So far as I can tell, the social aspects of going to school are VASTLY overrated.

What I've seen of responsibly home-schooled kids is that they grow up without the social conditioning, the bullying (either side), the class stratification ALL of which are solely products of the school environment and are NOT relevant to the outside world.

Since graduating HS has it mattered a bit if you hang with the jocks or the nerds? Do you feel any social approbation from having a love of musical theater? Does it matter in the office that you date the right person?

Most of the social lessons from school have NO application to the 'real world'. The lessons of 'sharing' are much better taught in a home where sharing is expected and natural than in a school where you are expected to 'share' you lunch money three times a week. And how do you learn 'how to relate to strangers' when you go to school and face cliques and groups and "we just don't associate with 'them'"?

If school helps kids socialize in the early years, by the time they are in 4th grade or so they've started learning that the white kids don't like the black kids, that the mexican kids are 'different', but there's nobody more different than that girly boy over there.

Social Darwinism has its roots in the schools where there are built in heierarchies (Principle - administrators - teachers - bus drivers - janitors - kids, in that order) and the first thing you learn is who you can and cannot talk back to. You learn that there are leaders and followers, bullies and bullied, and YOU get to choose which of those you want to be.

Who needs it?

[mamalone]

53. Well said.

Thanks... :-)

[girl gone mad]

148. My son is home schooled.

We worried endlessly about whether he would get enough socialization, which is why we dragged him to home school get-togethers and enrolled him in various clubs and activities. In the end, he found a sport that he loves which allows him to be on a team and he also developed good friendships over the internet with kids who share his interest in computers, robots and games.

The neighbor, who attends public school, was constantly using the pejorative "faggot" until my son asked him to stop.

[Odin2005]

182. "Socialization" is a euphemism for indoctrination into obedient corporatist consumerism.

[mamalone]

51. Do you have a link to support that claim?

A child actor taught by a tutor is not the same thing as homeschooling, by the way. A homeschooled student is taught by a parent... and therein lies both its strength and potential weakness. My state, NY has some of the most stringent requirements for homeschooling families. Any teachers other than parents must be certified teachers in the area of instruction. A parent teaching their own child has the benefit of intimate knowledge of their child: his learning style and temperament. They also have the benefit of 1:1 instruction for the most part. Unless the parent is completely and utterly ill qualified to teach in any way shape or form, these benefits more than make up for the lack of certification they possess. For what its worth, I am a past certified educator in Early Childhood Education. Believe me, my college degree and certification were no magic ticket ensuring competent teaching. If you don't believe me, take a look in any public school in the country and I am sure you will find at least a couple of fully certified teachers who are absolutely incompetent.

Honestly, I find all of this sneering at homeschooling families to be quite bewildering. As progressives, aren't we supposed to support individuals who make unconventional choices? Why would we endorse a form of education that tends to produce cookie-cutter results over a method that is highly individual? Homeschooling allows for optimal education of each child according to their own strengths and assisting them to overcome their unique weaknesses. Certainly each homeschooling situation is not optimal, but neither is each public school, or private school setting.

Different kids, different education choices.

[sfwriter]

60. The great myth...

"Even in the case of a qualified parent, a home schooled child is going to miss out on learning important social skills,"

My daughter interacts with about 12 children and 10 adults on a weekly basis. I am frequently complimented on her good manners.

"how to relate to strangers,"

All of our kids in my secular home schooling group are very outgoing. When we do group tours of zoos, parks, museums, they are quick to ask questions and engage the staff. We are frequently complimented on their behavior and they are frequently contrasted to the "glass-eyed zombies" that usually troop through on field trips.

"how to play fair with others,"

Playing fair and working out their own problems are a frequent goal of our group outings. With a dozen kids from pre-school to middle school, you see a lot of self discipline and guidance under the watchful eyes of four parents. Contrast this with my public school experience of a Lord of the Flies culture amongst 32 3rd grades overseen by one elderly overworked teacher.

"exposure to a variety of people and diverse ideas,"

We have wiccans, pagans, atheists, Christians, unschoolers, curriculum schoolers, kindergarteners, second graders, middle school kids. They encounter diverse ideas, get individual instruction, and frequently rise to the occasion. My five year old has a seven year old best friend. They read together and my daughter rises to the occasion. In a public school, she would never meet a seven year old.

"Most home schooled children grow up without a complete grasp of how the world works."

Based on your experience of what? Name five examples.

I know that we are generally ahead of the milestones and curriculum of the public schools. Right now, my daughter and one of her friends are just at the age they would enter Kindergarten and are only missing four or five K-level skills, so we are running K and First Grade curriculum concurrently. They are also exploring much wider fields of interest than are required by the state. They will have a deeper understanding of Music, Art, Science, Culture and Religion than most of their public school peers.

She will be FAR behind her peers in knowledge of Miley Cyrus, sexting, bullying, taunting, mocking, ostracizing, the Disney Channel, cartoon network, commercial television, cafeteria lunches, boredom and obeying authority, to name just a few things. I'm fine with all she is missing out on.


Not all home school parents are raising pasty, frog-eyed prudes raised in oppressive and isolated doctrinaire homes. Please don't paint with such a broad and ignorant brush.

[Arugula Latte]

74. Think of this, though. If homeschooling were outlawed, the rightwing nutbag families

would be largely in the public schools, protesting the teaching of scientific knowledge and the like. I'm glad lots of them stay out of the system. Of course, with the fundie ones, we wind up with more uneducated ignoramuses who think the world is 4,000 years old, so that's the down side. There ARE quite a few cool liberal families who do homeschool, though.

[Dogtown]

87. Thank you for a civil objection!

I agree that the Bibled would be a drain on public resources, but I really believe that, given a plausible alternative, some benighted *souls* would cast off the chains of medieval ignorance.

As to the parents attempting to limit education with protests, they already do, whilst keeping their own tykes besotted with superstition. They would be neither more nor less an impediment than they already are.

I am aware that home-schooling isn't limited to conservatives; Winona Ryder was home-schooled. Not that it proves my point, but (while she has made substantial contributions to art) she also has significant personal issues that limit her as an individual. I can't attribute her antisocial behavior to home-schooling, but it could well be a factor.

For the apologists: don't over-reach by objecting to this "claim", I've caveatted it sufficiently. I do not claim it as "proof" of my premise, nor will I weary myself spoon-feeding you citations to support my stance.

It should be noted that (although it may not be true in these instances) trolls frequently ask for "proof" of opinions they'd like to challenge, but can't. My response to them (and you) is: "Do your own homework. Maybe you'll actually learn something."

[kegler14]

101. I know, let's juts outlaw nutbag fundies. That would be about as constitutional

as outlawing homeschooling.

[LanternWaste]

102. I imagine many people believe...

I imagine many people believe that others who are educated differently, or think differently, or even believe differently should be outlawed. Which seems a bit ironic when one notes that that is its own type of 'unqualified nutbag fundie.'

[tigereye]

123. that simply isn't true!

and that's a really broad-brush statement.

[Thothmes]

155. You can, I am sure, provide some sort of reliable data

to back up your rather broad brush accusations.

[Odin2005]

173. That is complete utter BS.

[seabeyond]

3. i was so unreasonably afraid of public and all the private in area are christian

i considered homeschooling for a brief period when sons in 4th and 1st grade because i was so afraid of public with tak test, non academic, failing teachers adn bullying (i bought into the bullshit) that i sent them to a private school that was best in academics, yet a christian school. i didnt want kids in the school for religion but figured we could endure. my goal and intent with children was their academics.

2004, son 4th grade i knew i had to take them out. not impressed with academics and the religion had turned to hate about 2003.

i considered homeschooling for the exact opposite reason of religious teaching

happy ending to the story.

i would fail as a homeschool teacher so sent to public and public is absolutley kick ass and all the "fear" around public school was wrong

[sfwriter]

75. We applied to two very good private schools...

The real problem with public education is that it is starved of resources and frequently dominated by fundamentalist school boards around here. After waiting list on one and a $18,000 bill for the other, we decided to reaffirm our home school roots and skip the public option. I'm glad you found one that works.

[seabeyond]

119. me too.... cause my kids frustrate the hell out of me when i try

to help with homework, ect....

they know what buttons to push.

but then i am equally glad you were able to find soemthing that worked for you too.

i dont care what the education is, .... along as it is an education. and critical thinking, open minded and out of the box are always a plus

[sense]

165. My kids used

to frustrate the hell out of me with busy work sent home as education. When I pulled them out of school to let them learn at their own pace, they were much happier and fulfilled and education was a breeze.....ok, so maybe not always a breeze.....but I enjoy them much more without the restrictions of public school.

[Burma Jones]

6. True.....

We have a friend home schooling a 9 year old and they are the antithesis of Rightwing Fundie......

[spinbaby]

8. I home schooled one of my sons

His backward elementary school wanted to put him into special ed because he was "difficult." It was a revelation that it took only about half an hour a day to keep him up to grade level. When he reentered public education in third grade (after we moved out of the backward school district)he was doing high-school math. He went on to graduate from Penn State with honors with a degree in computer science.

[Echo In Light]

9. The few HSers we've known were very liberal/open minded people

[Walk away]

11. It may work for the individual (although I am not convinced) but it is..

terrible for the school system as a whole. Public schools encourage a mix of ideas and ideals. Segregating children into religious or other types of private schools and especially home schools can't be good for the community.

[TxRider]

14. Sure it can

Do you think home schooled kids are locked in a closet, hidden from society?

They have friends and go play and socialize with others and such like every other kid.

And they have ideas to mix just like anyone else.

[Walk away]

108. Do you honestly believe it is the same?

I don't.

[TxRider]

121. No it is not the same

The environment for home schooled kids is likely better.

John Taylor later found, using the Piers-Harris Children's Self-Concept Scale,

"while half of the conventionally schooled children scored at or below the 50th percentile (in self-concept), only 10.3% of the home-schooling children did so."<72>

He further stated that "the self-concept of home-schooling children is significantly higher (and very much so statistically) than that of children attending the conventional school.

This has implications in the areas of academic achievement and socialization, to mention only two. These areas have been found to parallel self-concept.

Regarding socialization, Taylor's results would mean that very few home-schooling children are socially deprived. He states that critics who speak out against home schooling on the basis of social deprivation are actually addressing an area which favors home schoolers.[72

[sense]

168. No

It's not the same. That's the point! It is individualized and takes the person into account. We're not all suited to the same type of ....anything.

[Odin2005]

185. Nope, it's free of the bullies and emotionally abuse faculty that gave me PTSD

[Odin2005]

183. "socialization" is a euphemism for "social engineering" and "corporatist indoctrination"

The social engineers don't want any kids to escape being used as guinea pigs for the latest sociological fad.

[sense]

166. After 4 years of public school

I had to choose what was best for my child.....an education out of the dumbed down public system that was available. They refused to educate him at his rate and level of learning, as required by law. How could you leave a child in that situation? He is very well educated and will be a autodidact and very socially appropriate, polite, kind and generous.

The purpose of school:

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/historytour/history1.htm

[mamaleah]

184. So, force people to all go public for the good of the community?

Segregating children into religious or other types of private schools and especially home schools can't be good for the community.

Our kids go to private school. It works for us because as Jews, we would rather have our kids around other kids who share the same values.

At the end of the day, not all of us think alike, and really...that is ok.

[Kaleva]

13. I know of two families that home school their children

One family is fundie and the other is not. The children of both are polite, hard working and seem to be quite well educated. The common denominator for both families is that the parents invest a great deal of effort and time in home schooling their children.

[sfwriter]

92. And there you have it...

...a child's education depends upon the parents and how much time they invest.

[Lasher]

15. Reasons for home schooling

According to a 2003 U.S. Census survey, 33% of homeschooling households cited religion as a factor in their choice. The same study found that 30% felt school had a poor learning environment, 14% objected to what the school teaches, 11% felt their children were not being challenged at school, and 9% cited morality.<20>

According to the U.S. DOE's "Homeschooling in the United States: 2003", 85 percent of homeschooling parents cited "the social environments of other forms of schooling" (including safety, drugs, sexual harassment, bullying and negative peer-pressure) as an important reason why they homeschool. 72 percent cited "to provide religious or moral instruction" as an important reason, and 68 percent cited "dissatisfaction with academic instruction at other schools."<13> 7 percent cited "Child has physical or mental health problem", 7 percent cited "Child has other special needs", 9 percent cited "Other reasons" (including "child's choice," "allows parents more control of learning" and "flexibility").<13>

Other reasons include more flexibility in educational practices for children with learning disabilities or illnesses, or for children of missionaries, military families, or otherwise traveling parents. Homeschooling is sometimes opted for the gifted student who is accelerated, or has a significant hobby or early career (i.e. acting, dancing or music).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling#Motivations

[imdjh]

16. In addition, not all RW fundies who homeschool do it for the same reason.

We interacted through a homeschool group which organized dances, skating, and other activities for homeschoolers from all over the area. Some were fundies, some were hippies, some had kid who would have been diagnosed and medicated and weren't really being home schooled but were being kept home, and folks who would have liked to send their kid to private school but it simply didn't make economic sense. Of the fundies, some home schooled so they could keep the Sunday school indoctrination levels up, but others fell into the safety or economics category along with everyone else.

IN MY EXPERIENCE - Home schooling is mostly done because of safety and happiness issues. Economics comes second; for many people it's pretty much a bump to have a parent home school than to send the parent out to work to pay for private school, and aftercare and all the other happy horsedoo that nickels and dimes parents. Not to mention stress- there is a lot to be said for not having to send a clean and fed kid off in the dark of morning, racing deadlines for reports, tests, and other arbitrary crappola which is good for training and discipline but not essential to deal with day in and day out.

[Bluerthanblue]

18. I believe that it's presently about 75%

who claim "religious/moral" reasons for homeschooling, but I'm not sure.

I home schooled my oldest through High School. He chose to get his CDL and began working for the Highway Dept. in a neighboring town at age 18. He's been at the same job for 7+ years, and is now the shop Mechanic at age 26. You'd be hard pressed to find a more liberal, well respected, sought after worker- I'm not just boasting. Home Schooling isn't for everyone, but then neither is public schooling. Both have a place, and should be able compliment rather than compete with each other.


:hi:

[Bluerthanblue]

26. self delete dupe n/t

[Bluerthanblue]

27. I also meant to mention John Holt-

who championed alternatives to standard "public education" for a long time.

Here is a link to his answers for many common questions people had about the concept:

http://www.naturalchild.org/common_objections/

[KittyWampus]

41. Thanks, although my Wiccan friend might have chosen religious reasons for homeschooling

So it's tricky to tease out numbers.

[Bluerthanblue]

55. that's right about your friend- and from my

own personal experience (13yrs in Home Schooling community) there were many different kinds of moral/religious reasons.
We had Quakers, Baha'i, Anarchists, Orthodox Jewish, Catholic, Fundamentalists and many Liberal/Alternative-Living/Progressives. Doing things together as a group could be kind of tricky as a result, but we learned to work with and around each other, eventually breaking into two groups which were made up of those who had a clear religious agenda, and those of who didn't.
(or those who were not intolerant of others beliefs.)

My youngest son is a Sophomore in public school. I'm not close minded. What is important is that kids learn, and grow- different strokes for different kids.

and thanks for speaking out for those who choose home school as a legitimate (not-religious fanatic) option.

:hi:

[KittyWampus]

59. When I just went Googling for some data myself, I came across a page from Orthodox Jewish H.S.er's

For instance.

I think you hit upon the correct word that encapsulates what would concern most DU'ers about homeschooling trends> Intolerance or Tolerance.

[Mari333]

19. true.

I hired tutors for my sons when they were little, and they took some classes. This is a RED area, and many of their teachers were fundies in the public schools.
I wanted them to be exposed to different ideas, to know who Shakespeare was, to read the classics, to study in nature, etc etc..many of their teachers, especially in high school and middle school, were dolts. dumber then a box of hammers, and some of them would sneak their politics and religion into the classrooms.
I am glad I did it and would do it again.

[kegler14]

21. The first family I knew that homeschooled did so for safety.

A 14-year-old hoodlum who had no business in a regular school because of his past, knocked out their son and then stomped on his head.

[mike_c]

22. my daughter home schooled and did VERY well....

No, not all home-schoolers are fundy wingnuts.

[mwb970]

23. I would love to home-school a child!

What bothers me about the schools today is not the curriculum as much as the other kids and the overall atmosphere. I'm sure I could do a much better job of conveying the pageant of history, the grandeur of math, and the logic of physics than most schools do with most kids. I would put religion in its proper context.

In contrast, fundie-style home schooling appears to be an attempt to avoid creating a rounded, well-educated person. They want obedient, loyal, sheep-like followers of false prophets, ignorant of math, science, and their own language and history. Next thing you know, we've got the teabaggers.

:eyes:

[endarkenment]

25. Just like 95% or so.

Yes it is not 'all'. Merely the vast majority. Usually one or two follow up questions after 'I home school my kids' determines that creationism is involved.

[seabeyond]

28. link please. or is this just a pull it out of your ass guess. nt

[endarkenment]

32. The OP has no data. I also have only my personal experiences.

Homeschoolers are, in my experience, almost always fundaloons.

[seabeyond]

34. op stated not all homeschool is fundie. that is a correct statement. you say 95%. prove it

i dont think that is a correct statement

[endarkenment]

44. I can't prove it. There is no good data.

'something like 95%' was clearly not intended to be a statement of statistical accuracy.

But here you go, and this is from a very flawed census survey: 72 percent cited "to provide religious or moral instruction".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling

That is as close as I can get. Google is almost useless due to the huge numbers of hits on religiously oriented homeschool advocacy organizations, for example:

Christian education
Homeschooling: The Newest Trend in Christian Education
http://religion.adherents.com/Christianity/25-christian+education.html

The fundaloon homeschool movement is huge.

[seabeyond]

47. "to provide religious or moral instruction".

there is a post above that states 30 something percent religious reasons and breaks it down a little more.

having moral instruction does not mean religious to me. sending kids to a public school i am almost daily raising moral lesson and instruction combatting what they are seeing with peers. that is a consider many parents would homeschool. it was one of my concerns but i would be horrible at homeschooling, the public system here is kick ass in academics which i value above all and i have learned peer pressure does not have power over parental teaching.

[endarkenment]

134. From the same source most likely.

The census poll is nearly unusable because of the vague and cross-pollinated questions. 30 percent said religious regions and 72% said moral and religious reasons. There is no good data. It wasn't a break down. There was one article related to the census data that attempted to isolate motivations - which if I recall correctly is where the 30% number came from, but their conclusion was that they couldn't do it, the data wasn't specific enough.

[seabeyond]

152. point being. we cant guess how many for religious reasons, academic reasons

poor public school choices, child not able to integrate socially, learning difficulties, moral issues

that is all

[Bluerthanblue]

63. bigotry is ugly

and you are using your own experience to discredit many people you clearly have no knowledge about.

The religious fundamentalist homeschooling movement IS an in-your-face heavily publicized phenomenon, but it is NOT the whole of the movement.

Have you ever read any John Holt? Are you ignorant of the history of Home Schooling or just deeply prejudiced?

I don't approve or like those Fundamentalist Home Schoolers who claim to be so superior and are intolerant of anyone who doesn't believe like they do, and I feel the same about your opinion of people who choose to educate their children outside your view of what is "acceptable".

:thumbsdown:

[endarkenment]

131. Huh? My only claim is that fundaloons are the vast majority

of homeschoolers. Am I bigoted about fundaloons? yes I am. Guilty as charged. Don't like them, don't want them around, think they are generally vile people. I have no problem with homeschooling.

"I don't approve or like those Fundamentalist Home Schoolers" - which makes you about as bigoted as me.

[Bluerthanblue]

153. not quite-

I did jump down your throat, and I apologize for that. It is very frustrating to be continually told that homeschooling is only done by people with over-the-top religious convictions who indoctrinate their children with myths and fables and teach them to be intolerant of anyone who is different than them.

Statements like that are FAR too common, and while you've corrected your "estimate" from 95% down to 83% I can point you to estimates that are more like 60% being "evangelical" home schoolers- and even then, I believe there are those within that percentage who aren't fanatical, and who give their children very good educations.

Your attempt to quote me and prove me a bigot is either a mistake on your part- or a poor example of how reliable your facts are. You stop before the end of my statement, which changes it's meaning entirely. The full statement pointed out the specific group of "Fundamentalist" home schoolers which neither like nor approve of. Did you miss that? Or was it an intentional edit on your part?
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt- I do have a suggestion - Your objection to those home schoolers who use their choice of how they educate their children as a platform for spreading religious bigotry and intolerance isn't helped by the use of silly names- I'm sure you know that.

I'm sorry for the intensity I used in my earlier reply to you. I overreacted to your comments, and that was rude of me.

peace~
blu

[LanternWaste]

106. Is that in addition to, or in place of?

"to provide religious or moral instruction..."

Is that in addition to, or in place of?

Appears to me to be a most relevant and precise difference... :shrug:

[endarkenment]

132. It is a massively flawed poll, as I noted.

[Bluerthanblue]

33. where did you get your statistic?

from your circle of reference or a broader sampling?

You are wrong. The loud and extreme doesn't mean the majority.

:shrug:

[endarkenment]

35. Where is your data? Where is the OP's data?

The OP admits 'no data'.

[seabeyond]

40. not all hs are rw fundie. a number of posters on this thread homeschooled and arent fundie

ergo,

they alone have given op data and validity to statement she made

now own up

either say

i pulled out of ass

or here is link

or be a coward on puter and play a game

[endarkenment]

46. I let you know when 'something like 95% or so' needs to be backed up

with data.

Have a nice day.

[Bluerthanblue]

43. HERE-

In a survey of over one million homeschooling households, the National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) found the following in its 2003 survey (the most current data available):

Most families had multiple reasons for choosing to homeschool.
Most families included among their reasons concern about the school environment (including concerns about drugs, safety, or peer pressure), the quality of academic instruction, and the desire to offer their children a greater degree of moral or religious instruction.
Some families wished to homeschool for specific child-centered reasons, such as their child’s mental or physical health issue, other special needs that their child had, or the child’s own desire for a homeschooling education.
A smaller number of homeschoolers also wanted the greater flexibility that homeschooling can provide or wanted more control over the curriculum.
When asked to identify the chief reason that they wished to homeschool, about a third of families identified the environment of other schools as the most compelling reason, while another third made the choice primarily to provide moral or religious instruction in their child’s curriculum.














http://www.letshomeschool.com/articles39.html

[imdjh]

37. Where do you live?

[buzzycrumbhunger]

31. I'm anything but a fundie

I home-schooled my daughter for a couple years because our public schools suck that badly. If I had it to do over, I might have done it all the way from middle school on because the "socializing" I thought was more important in the end really wasn't. My kids are incredibly smart and school simply bored them to tears. Done right, you can arrange for your kids to take the very same tests they give to those in schools to document that they're progressing at/beyond their supposed grade level, with an eye toward getting in to college on an equal footing with their less-fortunate peers who had to suffer through busy work, cafeteria food, and abstinence-only sex ed. . .

That said, I know that FL is full of weird fundies who home-school to "protect" their kids from the real world. Many all-in-one curricula are geared specifically to the religion angle and are woefully short on actual education. I was appalled at what was available and what they contained, and ended up choosing our curriculum piecemeal, letting her choose from a legitimate bookstore (as a 9th grader, she chose things like DIY college prep courses, important historical biographies, and taught herself Japanese and web design).

I think you're going to find that home-schooled kids are probably one extreme or the other--scary smart or incredibly stunted and ignorant. It would be a shame to lump them together.

I think there should definitely be better rules about how you homeschool your kids because the vast majority may well be fundamentalist crazies who couldn't pass a GED themselves, let alone have a clue how to teach their kids (my bias comes from personal interaction with people like this, so I'm not talking completely out my arse here). I would think having some kind of proficiency test once a year to document they're at least at their grade level would be worthwhile--I grew up taking the IA Basic Skills test every year and something like that would work well. (No, FL's FCAT wouldn't.)

I'm also curious to know what the stats are. I think with the crap going on in public schools, home-schooling is going to become more important to more people. Fer cryin' out loud, you only have to look at what the state of Texas has done to its curriculum to know we need an alternative.

[uncle ray]

116. it's telling that you call those public-schooled "less fortunate".

yes there are improvements to be made in public education. so let's make them. public schools are a necessity. so lets fix them instead of opting out. education is important, everybody agrees on that, so lets provide the best we can for all of our kids. if public school children are adversely affected by those around them, then surely they will be affected positively by all of the exceptionally bright liberal children. why not let your children's brightness rub off on the less fortunate?

[Mariana]

151. The schools exist for the benefit of the students.

The reverse is not true. If a particular school is not working well for a particular student, that student's parents should never feel obligated to send their child there for the purpose of making the school better.

I know homeschooling parents who've tried to get involved with their local schools and work to improve them. These parents would be perfectly willing to send their kids to school if the school met their children's needs, but they will not do so UNTIL that happens. They are generally met with suspicion or even outright hostility, as if one MUST either have a child in the school or work in it in order to have an honest interest in improving it.

[sense]

170. Exactly our situation

[buzzycrumbhunger]

154. Public school almost ruined my kids

Honestly, I did try to work with them. Between the lousy FCAT (FL has been "teaching to the test" for years now), textbooks with revisionist history, teachers who are unwilling to schedule conferences for more than a couple minutes at the beginning of the day (they "have lives," donchaknow), weird dress codes (no sleeveless tops in FLORIDA?), intolerance for kids' methods of self expression, inability to cope with kids who actually want to learn things rather than just regurgitate what they're told, ad nauseam, I finally had enough.

When I succumbed to the guilt over "depriving" my daughter of the social aspects and put her back in for her last couple years of HS, they made it even worse. Her IQ tested at over 141, so yeah, she was bored with school. My son tested over 160 and was even more at sea, but he's a more easygoing kid and figured out how to slide through under the radar better than his sister. Any time she tried to approach an assignment in a way that would make it more meaningful to her, they labeled her as a troublemaker (I'm talking about English essays that addressed contemporary topics, book reports outside the usual history texts, art projects more advanced than elementary craft time, not in-your-face disrespect to her teachers). In the end, they shoved her (and her green hair) out of the main HS and into the "alternative" school, which they promised would be better suited to her style.

The reality was that it was the school for kids who'd been arrested and/or pregnant and was little more than reform school. Bars on the windows and all. They wouldn't even let her take her GED to get her diploma early because it "ruined the graduation numbers and funding for next year."

I ended up letting her drop the last year and we did her GED on our own a year early. She scored exceptionally well and the state at least substituted an actual diploma for a GED certificate.

Sadly, I have interacted with parents going through exactly the same thing with their own teens. Education is broken in this country, trust me. No Child Left Behind was the death knell. School is about making kids fit into neat little boxes where they are indoctrinated to become good little drones, not about encouraging intellectualism, free thinking, innovation, or excellence.

My mistake was in allowing public school to have as many years to get it right for our family as I did, and I don't think IQ and boredom were the main problem. It wasn't until my kids got to college and mingled with peers twice their age and teachers who appreciated their capabilities that they finally felt they fit in.

[sense]

169. My child deserves an education,

just like yours. Why would I sacrifice my child? Public education is broken. "It" doesn't want to be fixed and leaving my child in what was a toxic environment would have been abuse.

[uncle ray]

189. everybody is concerned only about their own children.

i suppose my perspective is different since i have no children, which will make most dismiss anything i have to say on the matter. but with no horse in the race, i'm not afraid to point out that removing your child from the public education system is in no way benefiting our children as a whole. if all parents that made the time commitment required for home schooling instead worked to improve and supplement public education, all of our kids would benefit instead of just their precious little Suzy. see, i may have no children, but i care about every kid the same, i'd rather see parents that should damn well know better, working to help ALL the nation's kids receive a better education rather than being the left wing equivalent to the right wingers indoctrinating their offspring.

but hey, i guess we don't all dream of the same liberal utopia.

[sense]

191. Correct. You have no children

and therefor no perspective. I worked very hard to change the system for 4 years. I gave the public school an extremely bright, motivated child who loved learning and was also kind, generous and polite. After 4 years, when I finally gave up fighting for someone to teach him, I got back a child that was incredibly angry, disappointed that school was not at all educational and had given up. It took a long time for him to recover and rediscover his love of learning. If you had a child, you would understand how leaving him in that environment qualifies as abuse. I'm concerned about all the children, but I cannot get through to so many who're brainwashed. I'm not the left wing equivalent to any right winger. I think for myself, as does my child.

But hey, don't let reality interfere in your dreams.....

[uncle ray]

192. my perspective is larger,

you are focused on your child and deemed home schooling the best bet for your child. i however am pointing out the need to fix the system so every child can get the education they need and deserve. home schooling is a temporary solution to the larger problem of the failed public education system. it is not something that can be applied across the board.

[sense]

195. There's been a need to fix the system for

at least 20-30 years. The NEA doesn't want it fixed, so it won't be fixed. Leaving my child or any other child in a toxic situation won't help anyone. People have to stop thinking there's only one right way to do things and step outside of their comfort zone. Most people are too conditioned by the public schools to make a move to help change things. I chose home schooling in a last ditch effort, certain that I couldn't do it and it was a ridiculous idea, but it turned out to be the best decision I ever made.

The "fix" is so large, we need to just start over, perhaps base teaching methods on the methods that have been studied and proven to be the best. Interest based learning, not something the system has any interest in. I'm not saying that home schooling is the only way or that it works for all. It's a legitimate, proven option, if not done to keep your children isolated. "Every child" has never been able to get an education they need and deserve in the public system. We don't all fit and we're not all sheep.

[Odin2005]

186. The public "schools" will never be "fixed" to my liking.

It will never happen. Too many special interests of all political stripes. Too many wannabe social engineers that use schools as places to test the latest sociological fad or ideological doctrines. Bullies never get punished because the bully's parents while and bitch at the school board, or are even on the school board.

[hamsterjill]

196. Well said!

n/t

[mamalone]

36. We homeschool and are Christians...

but that doesn't mean we are right wing fundies.

Our family chose homeschooling because we felt it was the very best thing, emotionally, behaviorally and educationally that we could do for our children. Besides which, we enjoy each others' company immensely and have great fun while doing it. I agree that homeschooling isn't the best choice for every family, but I find it bewildering when self identifying progressives sneer at those who homeschool as a matter of course.

[Bluenorthwest]

38. The home schooled kids I have known

were home schooled because of travel on the part of their working parents. I knew a kid who at age 4 had spent just 6 months at 'home' and had more air miles under his belt than many adults. His folks are liberal, free thinking, and very educated.
I've also known some kids who had things to accomplish themselves that did not allow for sitting in some public school room for all of those hours. Not all kids are the same. Nor are all families.

[BlooInBloo]

48. True - not all.

[ddeclue]

58. DO NOT CARE - everybody should go to the SAME public schools and get the SAME education

private schooling, religious schooling and home schooling are just ways to destroy public education for the rest of the country.

[Bluerthanblue]

68. bull- Public Education can handle the competition, and

your inability to understand or give room for independent thought and learning is foolishness.

NOT ALL "public schools" are the SAME. And there isn't a way to make them the same.
People learn in different ways- and at different rates.

:shrug:

[Rebubula]

85. Exactly...

...we should all be the same with the same dreams, ideals and mores.

:sarcasm:

[Dreamer Tatum]

97. Sorry, but I'm an American

I was born with the right to select how and where I (and my children) become educated.

[restless native]

125. Whoa...stop the presses...did I hear you correctly?

Everyone SHOULD go to the SAME school?! We still have a few freedoms left, thank goodness!

I went to public schools in the '70s but thank Jah I was in one of the best systems in the country! There are many, many districts where the troubled many suck up the attention from teachers and administrators and the few who want/can learn are being left to fend for themselves, as well as put their lives at risk.

[TxRider]

135. Every kid should be just another brick in the wall...

How progressive.

:sarcasm:

[sense]

171. Yikes! Are we robots?

[Odin2005]

187. Another authoritarian wannabe social engineer posing as a liberal

:puke:

[Maru Kitteh]

69. Perhaps. But their teacher and their principal always have a conflict of interest.

My step-daughter is "bright as a penny" too - but it didn't save her from the shitty Catholic homeschool "education" she got from her mother.

She fell flat on her face the very first semester of College in the real world.

The worst public school would have served her far better than her idiot mother did but hey, her mom did get a heck-of-a babysitter out of the deal.

[sfwriter]

76. Why are so many anti-homeschoolers ignorant?

I get this frequently. They will speak of some fictionalized, mythical, made up generality in their heads without listening to or accepting the experience of others. I wonder why that is. Dogtown on this thread is one good example, but I have encountered them for years.

We frequently discuss the ignorant misconceptions we've overheard with our group at monthly gatherings. It seems that religious indoctrination, ignorance and social awkwardness are the three greatest fears espoused.

Luckily, most of them are teachable.

[TxRider]

136. It's the public school system of course...

:sarcasm:

[Blue Diadem]

77. Data from US Dept. of Ed.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2009/2009030.pdf

[sfwriter]

89. Thanks, Looks like I'm in the same boat with 500,000 other families...

..who are not homeschooling for religious reasons.

But I share teh concern of 1.2 million who worry about the quality of Public schools.

[endarkenment]

137. 83%: moral or religious reasons

I admit I overstated it with my guess of 95%. Guilty as charged. However 83% of 1.5 million is 1.245 million - so you only get to hang with the 255,000 who didn't choose religious or moral reasons.

[TxRider]

143. 83% with religious or moral reasons != 83% fundies.

[endarkenment]

149. Well we just don't know as the poll data is flawed.

So yes of course not all of that 83% are fundaloons.

[branders seine]

83. no. some of them are far-right-wing fundies.

[hunter]

90. I know a "homeschooler" who was accepted directly into a PhD program.

Her parents were scientists who did a lot of field work so she never really had a chance to attend regular school. She "learned by doing."

I always wished I'd been so lucky. I knew how to read when I started kindergarten and school never caught up with me until I quit my cruel Lord of the Flies high school and went to college. I could have done better without the twisted social skills I learned getting clobbered by bullies and spiritually thrashed by teachers who had no idea how to handle me.

[sfwriter]

100. Your experience is why we decided to homeschool...

I hear anecdotal evidence of of those home schooled PhD's but haven't met one myself.

[pitohui]

104. that may be, but it's still important for a person to have experience working with peers

i know home schoolers who have valid reasons for home schooling but...the problems these guys are going to have getting along on a team project or a team effort would make it difficult for me to ever consider working with them or hiring them

i'm thinking of the really bright prima donna kids, yes, they're wonderful and brilliant, but unfortunately "does not work well with others" is a big issue once you're not about passing tests and writing papers but instead about producing results in the real world

i have a home schooled young relative who is probably a genuis but listening to him with kids his age is a little scary, the kid is just unreasonably bossy and doesn't know what compromise is, it's "my way or the highway" -- home schooling meant he was always a kid among adults, he simply doesn't know in his bones how to treat someone as an equal -- that's something he didn't experience at an early enough age

another home schooled young man i know was a genius but had social anxiety, i don't think his parents did him any favor by removing him from school and educating him at home and at a distance -- last i heard he was still in the basement and he ain't coming out

i was a shy person too, it would be too easy for me to live under the bed and pop pills and claim that i'm too brilliant for this world, but i don't think i would have been well served by today's treatment of brilliant sensitive kids -- not that i was well served by the other extreme (physical abuse to incent me to get the hell out there) but i have had a better outcome than the kids i see who are allowed to play the mental illness/depressed/social anxiety card and spend all their time navel gazing at daddy's expense

at the end of the day, being home school IS a handicap because you've missed crucial formative years of dealing w. people your age as equals, instead of just being a kid among adults and being always in dominant/obedience situations -- some people overcome their handicaps, of course most people cannot overcome their handicaps -- you're gambling when you handicap your kid that she'll be one of the few who does happen to overcome

also at the end of the day, try as they will to deny it, have you EVER met a home schooled kid where there wasn't some element of "my precious is too good to be treated the same as the other kids"??? that's ALWAYS there

the other issue is that the mother who home schools is the mother who is out of the job market for a lot of years and who ultimately can't ever get another professional job, i know someone this happened to, a very expensive higher education thrown in the garbage can and her future now forever dependent on her husband, so...better hope he never gets hit in the head and decides to change a fifty for two 25s...i know, i know, WE never get discarded or divorced, it only happens to "bad" unprogressive people, male menopause could never ever affect OUR husbands so why should we keep our credentials up to date? :sarcasm:

[hunter]

114. I wouldn't piss in your car window for the social skills I learned in school.

If I could do it again I'd skip junior high and high school and I'd be a better person for it.

[TxRider]

139. Of course there studies that show otherwise.

John Taylor later found, using the Piers-Harris Children's Self-Concept Scale,

"while half of the conventionally schooled children scored at or below the 50th percentile (in self-concept), only 10.3% of the home-schooling children did so."

He further stated that "the self-concept of home-schooling children is significantly higher (and very much so statistically) than that of children attending the conventional school.

This has implications in the areas of academic achievement and socialization, to mention only two. These areas have been found to parallel self-concept. Regarding socialization, Taylor's results would mean that very few home-schooling children are socially deprived.

He states that critics who speak out against home schooling on the basis of social deprivation are actually addressing an area which favors home schoolers.

Self-Concept in home-schooling children, John Wesley Taylor V, Ph.D., Andrews University, Berrien Springs, MI

[Lance_Boyle]

198. You keep spouting this "self-concept" thing like it's the omega-end-all of the discussion

Like 5 times in this thread already. It's not that big of a deal. I'm sure there are TONS of brainwashed fundie nutbag children who can't find New York on a map (but they know it's EVIL!) and they probably feel GREAT about themselves. Self-concept is an important thing, but it can't be the sole focus of education. End result is lots more "ignorant and PROUD" than society can bear.

[Odin2005]

188. Oh gee, and wonder where people learned "social skills" before public schools existed!!!

:eyes:

The "socialization" argument is pure dreck. Humans are social creatures, we don't need to be carefully trained by auhtoritarian state institutions to be good people.

"Dealing with kids your own age" is called kids playing, happens in every culture, even ones where there is/was no public education. :eyes:

[Maat]

117. Technically, we are part of an independent study program.

"Independent study" involves homeschooling through a public charter school, most of the time.

We love it. It's been a godsend. My kid just doesn't march to the conventional drumbeat in the conventional classroom. This way, we can organize a fairly demanding curriculum around her beloved art studies.

I support educational options for parents.

I was a very left-of-center Democrat when I joined this board; now, I'm a member of the Green Party.

[restless native]

128. And not all "fundies" are Right-wing...and not all Right-wingers

are evil. And so on and so on...(sheesh, I feel like that '70s shampoo ad). I mean, really...we so need to just quit with the broad brush attacks on those who may have SOME differences of opinion.

[litlady]

133. What does homeschooling success depend on?

Partially the parent, partially the student? I have known two homeschooled people well. One turned out just fine and was well-socialized. The other, however, was truly scary because of her experience. She had been homeschooled from 1-12. She entered college with me and had a huge freak out. She said she was literally "allergic" to being at school and that it made her so sick she couldn't go back. So she decided to do her degree at an online Bible college. She stopped leaving the house almost completely. Seems like the results are not always the same. But public school outcomes may not be standard either. Just don't know.

[Ilsa]

140. My neighbors are homeschooling liberals. Art History degree from

a private libera arts university and a librarian. Very progressive. They don't do "conformity."

[Broken_Hero]

144. I was home schooled for two years, 4th 5th grade...

I didn't notice any fundy nut job types when we would have our home school get together's. Most of the kids/families that were doing home schooling were logger/electrician families whom were working WAY out of town away from public schools.

Most of the families weren't even religious/church going(my family was though).

In my experience home schooling was a better because it offered more flexibility, you can do two days or more worth of classes in one day to take mini vacations and what not, and school started whenever mom/dad wanted it too, which was usually 10am or so, and that was nice...better than waking up at 6am.

My mom taught my brother and I predominately and albeit she wasn't the best teacher, we did learn quite a lot. The oversight was substantial as well, we would have monthly test by the folks that ran/gave out the course material(I want to say Calvary?) to make sure we were learning and not just having our parents pass us for the sake of passing us.

[Dappleganger]

145. Representin'

Our middle school daughter is being homeschooled this year via Florida's Virtual School (fully accredited and taught by our county's teachers). MS just wasn't a good fit for her last year so we are grateful this is an option for us. She has a ton of work to do but loves to do it independently, with a little help w/math by dh on the side. Once a week she goes to a homeschooling art class taught by the county next to us which is quite popular. She has a ton of neighborhood friends and they stop by on their way walking home from the bus so she is able to get her fun time in.

We also homeschooled our older kids (senior and junior in high school now) when they were in elementary school and they were able to plug right into PS when we moved here. Took a a couple of weeks to get used to standing in line, but they have always done very well socially and academically. We just wanted to do what was best for each child, and sometimes that means homeschooling and sometimes that means regular school. We are not fundies in the least and most of our vacations involve some type of history or science trip.

Edited to add: I know a lesbian couple pretty well who have homeschooled their son since he was in kindergarten (he's a freshman in high school now). You couldn't find a kinder, well-mannered and intelligent young man around!

[Wednesdays]

163. I have long considered home-schooling my daughter

...and it has nothing to do with politics or religion.

[sofa king]

167. Why not ask the leading authority on the subject?

The Home School Legal Defense Association is located on the campus of Patrick Henry College, in Purcelville, VA.

Patrick Henry College has two major purposes, the first of which is to produce right-wing authoritarian drones to fill the offices in Washington during Republican administrations.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0421-09.htm

The second purpose is to defend home schoolers, so that new right-wing authoritarians can be created all the time.

Now, I'm absolutely certain that not all home-schooled kids and their teachers are fundie assholes. But I don't see any damned Non-Fundie Asshole Home Schooling Legal Defense Association, either.

[sense]

172. Religion is a big money maker

They only defend religious home schoolers.....

Leading authority? I don't think so.

[Odin2005]

175. I see the anti-homeschooling bigots are out in force.

Sad to see liberals being suckers for corporatist indoctrinators, social engineers using our kids to test ideological ideas, bullying, mediocre teachers, and dumbass administrators.

[nadinbrzezinski]

179. First home schooling did NOT start with hippies

in the modern form it actually started with the right wing.

Second...

It has existed in the US, since before 1776 in one form or another.

oh and here are some links for you

http://www.jbs.org/education-blog/4331

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/focus-family

Oh and little history

http://gaither.wordpress.com/homeschool-an-american-history/

http://www.home-school.com/Articles/phs50-marypride.html

So yes, I will say, most of the kids in the modern home school movement are christian soldiers in training... exceptions notwithstanding.

I wish they were like oh one Abraham Lincoln, a product of home schooling, but they're not

[mzteris]

203. didn't we just have this conversation? NO - the right didn't "start"

the modern homeschooling movement.


". . . It is difficult to peg the exact origin of modern homeschooling. Some might say the seeds were being planted in the sixties and seventies by educational reformers and authors who questioned both schooling's methods and results. Notable among them are Ivan Illich (Deschooling Society, Harper & Row, 1971), Charles E. Silberman (Crisis in the Classroom: The Remaking of American Education, Random House, 1970), and the prolific John Holt (How Children Fail, Dell Publishing, 1964; How Children Learn, Dell Publishing, 1967; What Do I Do Monday? Dell Publishing, 1970), a teacher who eventually gave up his original vision of school reform as hopeless. He began advocating instead no school for youngsters, and in 1977 began publishing Growing Without Schooling, a magazine that continues today even though John passed away in 1985. (Author's Note in 2005: Unfortunately, the inheritor no longer publishes this magazine.)

. . . By the late seventies and early eighties, the message was spreading. The nationally acclaimed Home Education Magazine made its humble start in 1983. As the number of homeschoolers slowly grew so did the number of support groups focused on helping other parents get started in homeschooling. Networking homeschoolers worked to educate legislators and eventually changed state laws that prohibited the practice. The grassroots movement kept growing.

In the 1980s, changes in the tax regulations for Christian schools forced the smaller among them to close down by the hundreds. Suddenly, the parents of the students attending these schools were faced with a choice between government school attendance and homeschooling. For many, this really wasn't a choice at all, and these Christian families became part of a large second wave of homeschooling, joining earlier homeschoolers and boosting the numbers to record highs. Christian curriculum providers, already well-established businesses that had just lost a large chunk of their original market, followed the money and easily courted the new market of homeschooling parents.

Since then, the media has identified yet another wave of homeschoolers - "the mainstreamers." These are families from every conceivable religious, economic, political, and philosophical background in the United States. This wave has been impelled by: homeschooling's greater visibility as an educational option; local, state, and national homeschooling support groups; easy networking and information sharing via the Internet and e-mail; and continuing government-school problems, such as dumbed-down curriculum, violence, drugs, bullying, and more. These forces have brought up the number of homeschooled children in the United States an estimated 15 to 20% each year for the last 15 years. The ballpark figure now stands at two million and growing. . ." Excerpted from Homeschoolers' Success Stories: 15 Adults and 12 Young People Share the Impact That Homeschooling Has Made on Their Lives by Linda Dobson 2000

[elleng]

190. There's a homeschooling group here at DU.

Check it out sometime, folks.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=251

[Blue_In_AK]

197. This may be true,

but probably not in Alaska where there are NO regulations on home schooling. I've been shocked to learn over the past few days that home schooling parents here don't even need to let the state know they have kids, much less have them pass tests or anything. I think it's disgraceful. (And no offense to good home-schooling parents, of which I know we have several here.) In Alaska, the potential for abuse of this system can't be overstated.

http://www.adn.com/626/story/933162.html

If Alaska parents want to home-school their child, no paperwork needs to be filed, no phone call made. No one need be told.

As for the student, no specific subjects need to be studied, no number of hours need be logged behind a desk, no tests taken.

Alaska has the most lax home-schooling law in the country.

No one even knows how many Alaska children stay home instead of attending a public or private school -- they aren't tracked or monitored.

<snip>

In a state with the level of child abuse and child sexual assault that we have, it's very troubling when kids can be completely off the radar. Also, it may explain the popularity here of the uneducated fools who think Sarah Palin should be president.