Regarding the ACORN videos

[Rick Myers]

How many ACORN offices called the police or other authorities? Does anyone know. BTW: The videos are not as damning as portrayed by Glenn Beck...

[ShortnFiery]

1. Yet our illustrious Millionaires in the senate just voted to not fund ACORN which does

a lot of helpful things for those who don't get their coffees at Starbucks everyday. :(

[DarthPortnoy]

4. reserving judgement

..untill I see the entire videos, unedited. This all smells fishy. When the truth comes out, you will see that the conservatives behind this biggovernment.com business set these poor women up. What do they have? Three videos out of 300 offices? Puhleeze.

If we just ignore this it will go away. I doubt they have much else to show...

[Wizard777]

79. That is functionally a bill of attainder. It says Acorn is guilty enough to merritt this punishment

Acorn is entitled to due process and as agents of the federal government they are also entitled to the protection of the government. At the very least these two have defrauded Acorn. It is illegal to defraud the federal government or it's agencies. Except Congress. They love a good lie.

[paulsby]

2. i went to the source

and read the transcripts while watching the videos.

i haven;t watched beck, so can't comment, but the raw videos and transcripts are extremely damning.

[Rick Myers]

5. That is NOT raw video

It is heavily edited.

[paulsby]

7. y'know

i'm all ears if these people in the video and.or their supervisors want to come out and "deconstruct" the tapes, give explanations, etc., fill in the gaps, etc.

but ABSENT same, i am TOTALLY fine with congress defunding them.

they screwed their own darned selves.

[johnfunk]

11. Um, no. A handful of loose cannons did this, not ACORN itself...

... and this all looks like a campaign to destroy one of the most effective progressive political organizing outfits on the planet. It smacks of McCarthyism, and it surprises me that so many DUers refuse to see that.

On the other hand, it may be inspiring a large number of progressives to put the sting on right-wing outfits.

Be careful what you wish for, Glenn Beck, You just may get it...

[paulsby]

14. i don't care if it was a campaigh

to destroy womanhood, apple pie, and cheeseburgers.

it uncovered some disgusting behavior. and that's a good thing. bring the filth into the light!

[Luminous Animal]

27. I can't recall you demanding congress defunding Catholic Charities

because of pedophile priests, who, by the way, actually broke the law.

[Truth2Tell]

33. Or Halliburton, Blackwater, etc. nt

[DeadEyeDyck]

32. How do we know that the ACORN employees are real?

Is it unbelievable that BIG money could have staged the entired affair? Or maybe, you go into an ACORN office where workers are making a little over minimum wage and tell them they will be taken care of for the rest of their lives if they play a little game. You will get fired but we will take care of you. Big money can buy almost anything.

We are talking about very powerful players.

Just another way to look at it.

[iceman66]

42. Unless someone can prove

that the Acorn employees shown in the videos were themselves right wing plants, I can't see how anyone can argue that they do not reflect extremely poorly on the organization.

That said, I would love to see some similar sting operations against right wingers!

[ljm2002]

76. "On the other hand..."

"...it may be inspiring a large number of progressives to put the sting on right-wing outfits."

From your lips to God(dess)'s ears!

[Rick Myers]

13. The woman in the NYC one

Looks like she doesn't quite understand what she's being asked... But I agree, the behavior and transcripts do NOT look good...

But I want to know how many times they tried this 'sting' and failed. I heard atlest one ACORN office called the police...

[paulsby]

15. i'd like to know, too

but assume for the sake of argument, they tried at 10 ACORN offices and got 3 takers.

that would still be IMMENSELY damning of ACORN.

[michreject]

64. Why isn't this incident being made public?

Sounds like it would deflect some of the criticism.

[Hansel]

23. You would think nobody here knows about new digital editing and imaging

programs that can make videos sound and look like just about anything you want them to.

Having worked in the inner city in community organization for over a decade it is nearly impossible for me to believe that any Black employee would even begin to entertain the idea that that fool pimp looking guy, who was clearly playing an disgustingly racist stereotype of a black pimp, would even speak to these people much less in the way portrayed in this tape.

Where is the raw footage of this? The edited video does not pass the smell test for me in more ways than one. Until the video has been fully examined by an objective 3rd party, I'm going to reserve judgment on what exactly happened here. ACORN is claiming the the video was shot months ago and has been heavily edited and dubbed over. I have no reason to believe Fox News, who associations can barely speak unless to tell a lie, over ACORN.

Sorry, the video just doesn't pass the smell test and am waiting to see what ACORN's lawsuit reveals.

Anyone catch Red Eye the other night while the so called actors, their crack panel and Ann Coulter discussed this and showed some of the scenes behind the video? The words "extremely creepy and sickening" come to mind. Something just doesn't smell right.

Too many DUers are taking the word of people who have been proven over and over and over again to be out and out liars without really knowing all of the facts. It's really quite astounding.

[johnfunk]

6. Damning of the individuals, not ACORN -- they look edited... and the filmmakers may be lawbreakers!

This isn't over -- not by a long shot...

:popcorn:

PS: This entire thing smells of a J. Edgar Hoover style setup.

[fascisthunter]

25. that's where I am as well

the moment they went after ACORN itself instead of just holding individuals acountable, I knew their was agenda driven.

[Nederland]

48. Oh please

When some RW corporation has employees caught doing something illegal I don't see people around here making a big distinction bewtween the corporation and it's employees.

Time to cut ACORN loose and throw them to the wolves. They deserve it, and they are baggage we do not need.

[ddeclue]

53. There's a difference between what a McDonald's fry cook does and what the CEO of McD's does.

I'm not gonna make a stink about what the fry cook does.

It is an idiotically high standard to assume that any organization can control what its members are going to do at any particular moment so completely.

All you can really do is fire people and/or call the cops on them when they screw up - you can't prevent them from doing something - the military, the airlines and the police all have their own screw ups too - not an organizational fault.

[fascisthunter]

57. oh stuff it, already

like I give a fuck about your concerns for the right wing.

[ddeclue]

51. +1 - I wrote this very thing last night.

[NewJeffCT]

3. They probably went to a bunch of offices

until they found somebody...

BTW, you need to fix the spelling in your subject line.

[paulsby]

8. they found somebody at three frigging offices

that we know about so far.

ichiro would admire that battin' average!

[mzmolly]

10. But we don't know what happened because all we have are edited

versions of conversations that were edited/manipulated according to ACORN.

[paulsby]

12. then it's up to acorn to fill in da gaps

because i don't care what ACORN claims at this point without some FRIGGING specifics.

i watched the videos. i don't CARE if they were edited. there is no way i can conceive where those women's actions could be justified. if ACORN can enlighten us, then come on and do it!

[mzmolly]

17. I doubt they had their own camera person on the spot.

However, (based upon the information I have reviewed) I don't feel ANYONE was justified in this matter.

[Capn Sunshine]

19. your concern is admirable

I guess ACORN has been bugging you for a long time

[paulsby]

22. ridiculous

i just am not religiously wedded to ACORN in the manner that apologists like you are.

i know ACORN does good stuff, so they get extra plus good consideration even when there is a metric assload of evidence that they screwed the pooch

[mzmolly]

28. It's not a matter of being religiously wedded to ACORN. It's a matter of realizing

that tax advisers that work for private industry, subject to the same kind of scrutiny would be held individually accountable. No one would suggest that Liberty Tax should close down because they have two or three stupid employees.

Who is responsible for the actions of two or three employees when many others refused to offer absurd advice? Further, it's a matter of passing judgment when we have all the facts and not trusting Faux News and the fools at http://biggovernment.com/.

I have seen the good ACORN does for the people in their communities. Serving pimps and prostitutes is not part of their mission.

Who is ACORN?

ACORN is the nation’s largest grassroots community organization of low- and moderate-income people with over 400,000 member families organized into more than 1,200 neighborhood chapters in 110 cities across the country. Since 1970, ACORN has been building community organizations that are committed to social and economic justice, and won victories on thousands of issues of concern to our members, through direct action, negotiation, legislative advocacy and voter participation. ACORN helps those who have historically been locked out become powerful players in our democratic system.

Community organizing: Each of the 1,200 local ACORN neighborhood chapters in 110 cities and 40 states brings neighbors together to work for stronger, safer and more just communities.

Issue campaigns: Each ACORN office carries out multiple issue campaigns. ACORN members across the country work to raise the minimum wage or enact living wage policies; eliminate predatory financial practices by mortgage lenders, payday lenders, and tax preparation companies; win the development of affordable housing and community benefits agreements; improve the quality of and funding for urban public schools; rebuild New Orleans; and pass a federal and state ACORN Working Families Agenda, including paid sick leave for all full time workers.

A recent study shows that our issue campaign victories have delivered approximately $15 billion in direct monetary benefits to our membership and constituency over the past 10 years.

Service delivery: ACORN and its allied organizations provide extensive services to our members and constituency. These include free tax preparation focusing on the Earned Income Tax Credit; screening for eligibility for federal and state benefit programs; and, through the ACORN Housing Corporation, first time homeowner mortgage counseling and foreclosure prevention assistance, and low income housing development.

Ballot initiatives: ACORN-backed ballot-initiative campaigns in 2006 helped raise the minimum wage in Ohio, Arizona, Missouri and Colorado, working with community-faith-labor coalitions on successful campaigns in each state.

Voter participation: Since 2004, ACORN has helped more than 1.7 million low- and moderate-income and minority citizens apply to register to vote.


ACORN is a non-profit, non-partisan social justice organization with national headquarters in New York, New Orleans and Washington, D.C

www.acorn.org/index.php?id=12342

[paulsby]

36. i'm not suggesting they close down

IM NOT SUGGESTING, that they "close down"

i said the congressional vote to not FEDERALLY FUND them was a sound decision. that can always be reconsidered if ACORN proves its case (it was a setup. it was the one armed man!)

ACORN can sink or swim without FEDERAL FUNDING as long as they can;t screen their employees or supervise them.

[mzmolly]

40. I don't think we had a choice, unfortunately.

I just find it a shame because employees who did everything right, will likely lose jobs without federal funding.

ACORN hires people in the areas they represent. i.e. poor people who don't have much opportunity or past job training. I think if nothing else, the videos in question, demonstrated that.

[paulsby]

45. i think they demonstrate that ACORN hires people

who think it's perfectly ok to run a child prostitution ring, and that it's the job of ACORN to help such people.

i wouldn't minimize it by just saying they are poor and untrained.

how much training do you need to know that is just plain wrong?

[mzmolly]

52. I would imagine that question doesn't come up much

in the interview process? :eyes:

However, again I will wait for all of the info, before passing judgment on the entire organization. I've already said the employees actions are questionable at best.

[paulsby]

55. i think that's prudent

i haven;t passed judgment on the :entire organization: either.

i have said that based on the evidence available, congress was prudent in voting to defund in the future.

and that based on the fact that this happened at 3 different offices (at a minimum), that there appears to be a culture of corruption.

the ball is in ACORN's court to disprove that.

[mzmolly]

56. I don't know how many offices it happened or didn't happen at.

But I do think the director should consider stepping down for the good of the organization.

I disagree that ACORN has to disprove anything. That's not entirely possible.

[paulsby]

59. well, they have witnesses

the people who were there.

i've done plenty of undercover stings. i've watched HOURS of surveillance tapes. rarely have i seen one as clear cut as this.

i strongly doubt they can give a good explanation. but the ball's in their court to do so

[mzmolly]

65. If you've done undercover stings

then you know there are laws governing what can and can't be done? You also know that editing out portions of a video to make your case would not fly in a court of law. One should have access to the entire record of statements before forming a solid opinion.

One possible scenario was the the girl feigned being afraid of her pimp. We have no idea what was said off camera or on camera for that matter.

[paulsby]

66. i have done them in a law enforcement capacity

this was NOT a law enforcement operation . this was two private individuals.

and this isn't about what would "fly in court", since this is not a criminal issue (at least not yet).

nor have we been addressing it as such.

i've been discussing it as an example of corruption and lack of ethics, not criminality.

the "rules" for law enforcement are very strict. as they should be.

[mzmolly]

68. Indeed, but there are laws governing

permission to record conversations that were not followed in some states. There are reasons for such strict rules because without all the facts, people can twist and spin information.

[paulsby]

69. i don't think so

the laws regarding two party consent are largely done (as we have joked about in WA for some time) to protect corrupt politicians.

WA state has such a law, but it only references "private conversations", which would generally not apply to a business meeting.

otoh, maryland;s law is different.

they very well may have broken 2 party consent laws in md.

[mzmolly]

72. Maryland

is one state I thought of when I made note of the consent laws.

[Luminous Animal]

41. They are not federally funded.

They are awarded grants on a program by program basis to provide necessary social services. They win these grants because they have the infrastructure to provide said social services that the government does not. Removing the possibility of ACORN from receiving government grants will mean that there will be a gap in poor folks from receiving assistance that they need.


But, I guess that is okay. It's just poor folks. They are used to suffering.

[paulsby]

46. same thing

federal grants are a form of funds.

and spare me the "it's just poor folks".

poor folks aren't "empowered" by people who would aid child sex traffickers in setting up a business in their neighborhood

[Luminous Animal]

74. ACORN did not aid sex traffickers no more than the Catholic Church

ordains pedophiles.

And yes, government grants are different than being government funded. Grants target a specific need for a specific period of time to solve an issue or supply a service that cannot be supplied by the government. Grants must be applied for and the grantee must demonstrate, in detail, where every cent of the grant money will be allocated until the funds run out. Similar but not the same to the system where the government contracts out to manufacturers supply weapons to the military. GE is not government funded even though it receives government contracts.

[Capn Sunshine]

37. tell me

have you EVER once, in your review of this website, going back to 9/2001 when I joined, have you EVER seen me "apoligize" for any of ACORNS actions?

I just find your vehemence interesting.

[paulsby]

38. my vehemence

is inspired by the apologists zeal to explain away and defend the indefensible.

[Capn Sunshine]

62. yes, and your vehemence is interesting

There's so much fucked up in this country, like the corporate billions spent to fight health care reform resulting in turning loose the right wing nutbags and armed militants, that such ire over an inconsequential incident in one of thousands of a small .org's offices seems slightly akimbo.

[paulsby]

71. and there's so much #$*#$*#$ up

here when people act as APOLOGISTS for what these ACORN employees did.

[mzmolly]

75. I didn't see any apology for what ACORN employees

did here.

[Capn Sunshine]

77. me either. Hence my fascination with the ACORN anger melodrama

:nuke:

[mzmolly]

78. It is fascinating

indeed. :hi:

[Luminous Animal]

35. How the hell can ACORN fill in the gaps?

Who else witnessed the incidents? There is proof of what went down and it is in the raw unedited footage.

[Nederland]

20. ACORN fired the employees

If ACORN had a plausible explanation, they would not have done that.

[mzmolly]

24. They fired them AND gave an explaination.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0909/27139.html

“It is clear that the videos are doctored, edited, and in no way the result of the fabricated story being portrayed by conservative activist ‘filmmaker’ O’Keefe and his partner in crime,’ ACORN chief organizer Bertha Lewis said in a statement over the weekend. “And, in fact, a crime it was—our lawyers believe a felony—and we will be taking legal action against Fox and their co-conspirators.”

After the videos surfaced two ACORN employees in Baltimore and two others at the Washington office of the off-shoot housing corporation, a separate organization, were fired.

“I cannot and I will not defend the actions of the workers depicted in the video,” Lewis said in her statement. She added that the “scam,” was also attempted but failed at other ACORN offices in San Diego, Los Angeles, Miami, New York, and Philadelphia.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0909/27139.html#ixzz0RD3nD4YB

[Nederland]

30. Totally contradictory statements.

The videos were "doctored", but they "will not defend the actions of the workers depicted in the video".

Makes no sense whatsoever. If the video was really doctored, why the hell would you care what actions were portrayed in the video?

[mzmolly]

34. I don't find them contrary.

What they're saying is that it's obvious the videos are doctored. However, the portions of the video that ARE clean, demonstrate reprehensible behavior. I agree with both statements.

What's important here regardless is that the employees of ACORN did NOT follow established ethical guidelines. If employees of a for profit tax business had done the same, we'd suggest that the employees were at fault, not the entire organization.

[paulsby]

39. if employees at 3

and counting branches of the office were so brazen, we would be saying it's an INSTITUTIONAL problem, not just a rogue employee.

but ACORN gets special consideration of course from the apologists

[mzmolly]

44. I've only seen videos from ONE organization.

And, they were edited and perhaps doctored. However, speaking of organizational problems, why do you trust Faux News and it's rogue filmmaker all of a sudden? Haven't they demonstrated they can't be trusted?

Also, I'm not an apologist. What I am is a person who recognizes that ~

* Nearly 40 years of helping the poor is not negated by a handful of people who ACORN tried to help with providing them work
* The R/W is going after ACORN because they're effective at getting out the vote in poor areas for Democrats
* The R/W doesn't like ACORN because they're involved in "community organizing" which is where Obama started his career
* Faux and their counterparts are not trustworthy. Due to this I want ALL the information available from ALL of the videos before I pass judgment on ACORN per se.

Here is the official statement from ACORN if you're interested?

http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=12439&tx_ttnews=22581&tx_ttnews=12387&cHash=bb5331a517

[paulsby]

49. i've read ACORN's statement

and seen the videos from 3 different ACORN offices while reading the transcripts.

it has nothing to do with trusting fox news (they are not the source. i went to the source) or not

or trusting ACORN

it has to do with looking at evidence.

[mzmolly]

50. Incomplete evidence

is not enough for me to pass judgment. Other ACORN employees filed police reports. Why not look at that evidence as well?

[paulsby]

54. it's more than enough

to conclude the congress acted rationally in defunding in the future.

given the amount of evidence, imo, congress would be remiss for NOT doing so.

[mzmolly]

58. For the time being

perhaps. I just think it's a shame that the R/W was able to effect an organization that over the years has done many good things.

[paulsby]

60. i don't care at all about that

because i'm not into the gamesmanship. if rightwingers can expose this kind of assmunchery and corruption more power to them. sunlight is the best disinfectant.

im all for leftwingers in running similar stings.

keeps everybody honest and above board.

[mzmolly]

61. I'm sure you don't.

Who should the left-wingers approach? HR Block?

[paulsby]

63. operation rescue

some of those gay deprogramming programs, stuff like that.

[mzmolly]

67. I prefer HR Block.

With similar tax type questions being asked.

[paulsby]

70. that would be interesting... nt

[mzmolly]

73. Yes it

would.

[TCJ70]

43. They fired them even though they don't believe the videos are accurate?

Their explanation doesn't make sense...

[mzmolly]

47. They fired them for not following protocol.

The videos apparently demonstrated that much.

[mzmolly]

9. I know that some did call police.

I can't say how many.

[aikoaiko]

16. At least one, that I heard of, but I have no linky for confirmation

sorry

[mzmolly]

18. One of the news stations had a copy of the police report

yesterday. I think CNN?

[polmaven]

21. NOTHING

is as damning as portrayed by Glenn Beck!

[timo]

26. watch out

gonna be another video this afternoon out of the san bernardino area.......

[Raineyb]

31. Anything coming out of the Beck mess is automatically

suspect.

[la la]

29. a 'punking' gone terribly wrong....

and i'm thinkin' a lot of it is--(A) in the editing, (B)financed by a right wing organization and (C) a very lucky break for faux news dunderheads.