Kucinich Voted AGAINST Wilson Reprimand.

[berni_mccoy]

Hold on a sec. Gotta get some :popcorn:.

Now, head exploding may commence.

(on edit: I was an early Kucinich'08 supporter. For those here who think I don't like Kucinich, they assume too much. I have always and will always appreciate the man for who and what he is. I just happen to think he voted the wrong way on this, no matter what excuse).

[ecstatic]

1. Kucinich has an interesting past nt

[mmonk]

179. Do tell.

[Turbineguy]

2. Thinking of the future

Gotta line up your cards. 2012 may be stolen back.

[Occam Bandage]

So Kucinich supports interrupting addresses to Congress with heckling,

because heckling is the sort of thing that ought be protected? Does he support rhetorical thuggery on principle? Does he look at the current Republican attack machine and think, "gee, I sure hope we can be like that in 2013 after the Repubs win?"

If that's true, I think it supports the worst thing I've ever said about him: that he cares more about grandstanding than about solving problems.

[Raster]

11. Representative Kucinich support full censure. Full censure.

[Occam Bandage]

16. Oh, so he was just voting against a good bill because he wanted a better one.

Like when he voted against S-CHIP.

[Barack_America]

126. .

*nods head and says "mmmhmmm"*

[ecstatic]

17. Link?

:shrug:

[Junkdrawer]

54. Self Delete. Posted wrong spot.

[paulsby]

45. not a valid conclusion

saying you are against a formal reprimand =/= supporting interrupting address to congress with heckling.

[Occam Bandage]

56. It's a valid conclusion from the premises offered in the post to which I replied.

[paulsby]

68. no, it's not

you are setting up an either.or situation when none necessarily exists. need i cite the logical fallacy? i can if you want me to.

if kucinich =/= support censoring wilson for his actions, it does not NECESSARILY follow that he supports what wilson does.

that is actual logic. hth

[Occam Bandage]

88. Given the premises in the post to which I was replying, yes.

That post suggested that he voted against the bill because the President in 2013 might be a Republican. The only reasonable conclusion is that DK did so because he wished to preserve the right to heckle the Republican President in 2013.

[Turbineguy]

150. delete

delete

[paulsby]

174. that's an inference

and not at all logically certain, which was my point. nice evasion. is it POSSIBLE that this is kucinich's motivation? of course. is kucinich's stance dispositive towards same? not by a mile.

[Junkdrawer]

111. So you agree that Obama supports torture...

because he is unwilling to aggressively go after Bush and Cheney?

[pundaint]

178. Yes

He is head of the branch of government tasked with enforcing laws. If he doesn't pursue lawbreakers he provides the necessary environment for lawbreakers to thrive. His lack of action is support of torture and other crimes against America.

[Aragorn]

180. Yes

and not just because of that omission

[Indigent]

138. Obama was opposed the censure

"“See, this is part of what happens,” Obama said, when asked about Wilson by interviewer Steve Kroft on Sunday’s “60 Minutes.” “I mean, it just becomes a big circus instead of us focusing on health care.”"

http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/politics/Obama_blasts_health_care__big_circus_-59186687.html

[anigbrowl]

3. This should be interesting. Scooch over, there.

:popcorn:

[seabeyond]

14. loll l ol. no heads exploding anyway. .... nah, of course not

and i dont have a thing against the man. dont care he voted against, well.... a little maybe. but but but... if it had been a conservative dem then heads would have exploded. lol

have pizza coming, cant share in the popcorn

[Oregone]

4. Don't blame him

I seriously wish you saw them scrambling for votes over something actually important. At least the dude didn't throw a shoe at the president, eh?

[seabeyond]

9. dont blame him for his vote? who are we suppose to blame, ??? lol lol. nt

[berni_mccoy]

27. I don't blame him. I think it's funny actually. I was an early Kucinich '08 supporter

Before he bowed out of the race.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ashling]

46. Not important? So you are saying that

it is ok for childish republicans to disrupt the health care process in any way they choose? Hell, bring the Teabaggers to the galleries, signs, shouting and all to egg on their loutish representatives on the floor. It's OK as long as somebody gives a hastily prepared insincire half apology to someone.

[Oregone]

129. Sure, a little ribbing is always welcome

He just needs to dish it back. Doesn't bother me what happened, an ounce. Just made Wilson look like an ass

[MoJoWorkin]

48. So, it is ok to apologize for DK, but not for Obama, EVER, huh?

"Don't blame him," you say? It wasn't important, you say?

This was important to those who want our President respected as he should be, and safe!


Dennis was wrong on this. He aided and abetted the racists, pure and simple.

Mr. "all or nothing at all" Kucinich has done it again. John Q Public doesn't see the difference between censure and reprimand. All they see are the numbers and how they voted.

This is precisely why DK's career will never go beyond where he is today.

[Oregone]

132. Who is apologizing?

:)

[robinlynne]

5. I would guess there is a reason.

[flvegan]

6. I believe he was insisting upon a full censure.

Not that it matters at this point.

[BlooInBloo]

30. Of course. All or nothing... in every way. Well I'll give him consistency points, I suppose.

[flvegan]

42. I'm sure that not having those points from you would keep him up at night

in tears. How blessed of you.

[BlooInBloo]

49. True that.

[seabeyond]

7. of course there is a reason. isnt there ALWAYS a reason? nt

[Selatius]

8. Kucinich probably was more interested in the health care debate than a decorum breach.

My best guess as to his vote, anyway.

[seabeyond]

10. so he went and voted no???? why not just not be there and be busy with

whatever you are suggesting

i LOVE these excuses. they are so much fun. lol

[Selatius]

23. Well, first off, I'm not trying to excuse what Kucinich just did.

I just honestly was spit-balling, but nowadays, I worry about doing that because of other posters second-guessing the intention behind the words.

That said, maybe he honestly didn't think it was that big a deal, in light of the fact that Obama already accepted his apology. Again, just a guess. Not an excuse.

[seabeyond]

28. even if not a big deal, which it isnt, no sense voting no. you are there, vote fuckin yes.... not

rocket science

[Selatius]

40. Well, he voted no. He was obviously protesting something.

Maybe he thought it was petty cheap point scoring by the Democratic leadership? Could that be plausible?

[seabeyond]

47. i dont think the other dems ever get this kinda support when they vote against dems

which i think is the humor you are finding from most of us posters.

hang 'em

would be more like it. regardless of the reason

[Occam Bandage]

62. Dennis Kucinich loves political point-scoring.

Dude lives for it.

[robinlynne]

13. or he could ahve been angry that the only question was where and how You lie was

said. The real matter is the fact that Joe Wilson was LYING. He never apologized for that, at all. not even a little bit.

[Occam Bandage]

19. Yes, we all know how DK hates grandstanding and symbolic votes,

and prefers to focus on the nitty-gritty of legislative give-and-take and consensus-building.

[armyowalgreens]

33. And by give-and-take I assume you mean giving in to corporate interests.

Yes, Kucinich refuses to do that.

[Occam Bandage]

53. Nope. I don't. I mean negotiating. DK has never been any good at that.

He's really good at saying "I want everything my way, and if I can't get it all my way, I'm takin' my ball and goin' home." Of course, so is your average seven-year-old.

[armyowalgreens]

81. But you do not deny that he is right in his political beliefs, right?

Or is that a convenient thing to look over. No he's wrong because he refuses to negotiate with assholes.

[Occam Bandage]

103. Most of 'em.

Some of them, such as the Dept. of Peace, are pants-on-head stupid. But most are pretty good. It's a pity he's so useless at turning his ideas into reality.

[backscatter712]

20. That's what I'm thinking.

That, and Kucinich knew the resolution was going to pass anyways, so he might as well register a protest vote.

Not that I agree - Wilson damned well should have been smacked down!

[seabeyond]

22. nothing like looking like a united group as about tackle something important like healthcare

oh no.... go make a protest vote for the hell of it

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

124. Nice spin.... 9.9

[seabeyond]

137. lol, that is funny. nt

[Selatius]

139. Read post #23.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

12. He might have wanted censure. Kucinich rarely compromises.

[SIMPLYB1980]

15. Not a good excuse, and the reason he is more unreliable

than a Blue Dog.

[Dragonfli]

24. Well blue dogs ARE reliable republicans, if that is your thing I guess that counts as positive

[armyowalgreens]

29. Yes he is less reliable because he refuses to give into the bullshit.

If all politicians were like blue dogs, we'd be fucked.

If all politicians were like Kucinich, shit would get done.

Don't slam the man for doing what's right. That's fucking bullshit.

[Occam Bandage]

32. "If all politicians were like Kucinich, shit would get done."

No, if all politicians were like Kucinich, absolutely nothing would get done, because nobody would be willing to compromise their beliefs to work with anyone else. No bill would get more than a handful of votes, because everyone would be able to find something in every bill to complain about, just as Kucinich does now.

If all politicians were like Blue Dogs, bills would pass more easily, but they would be much weaker.

Both have their place.

[armyowalgreens]

38. No. There is no place for blue dogs just like there is no place for corporatism.

If all politicians, at least the democrats, were like Kucinich (in ideology and method) shit would get done.


But of course "pragmatism" is glorified so much these days that no one gives a shit about disrupting the status quo. It's pathetic.

And now we are trashing a man for refusing to be mediocre. What does that say about us?

[Occam Bandage]

51. Shit would absolutely not get done. You know how I know that?

Because Dennis Kucinich has never gotten shit of any sort done. He has no legislative allies to speak of. The closest thing to a political friendship that he's ever forged was his dalliance with Ron Paul. He's never been at the head of a legislative push. He's never guided any significant legislation through. All he's ever been good for has been symbolic votes and introduction of symbolic legislation. HR 676? From a political-method viewpoint, no different from the plans Repubs were waving during Obama's address to Congress.

Give me a hundred Teddy Kennedies, and America would be a wonderful place. There was a man who understood how to use ideology to fuel pragmatism. Give me four hundred thirty five Dennis Kuciniches, and not one thing would change in two years. There's a man who has let his ideology render him completely unable to accomplish anything.

[armyowalgreens]

64. He's never lead anything because it isn't a fucking whore.

I wish we had politicians like Ted Kennedy. That would at least approach something like what a politician should look like even though it's not good enough.

Instead we have a bunch of prostitutes sucking the fat dick of big business. "Pragmatism" or "compromise" is nothing more than a label for political prostitution. Do you see what compromise gets us? It provides just enough substance to quiet the masses while also marginalizing legitimate dissent.

"Shut up and sit down because you're a naive idealist. We like getting just enough to keep ourselves content"- No fuck that.

676 isn't "symbolic". It is passible and practical. It's "symbolic" to you because you've given into the compromise bullshit.

[Occam Bandage]

70. So 676 could pass Congress, if we didn't have moderates or conservatives in Congress.

Yes, I agree with that statement. But given that we do have moderates and conservatives in Congress, I'll take politicians who can figure out how to get shit done within the framework of the system we're stuck with, instead of politicians who are utterly useless outside hypothetical political dreamlands.

DK has never done anything useful in Congress. He's proposed a lot of bills that went nowhere, but he's never proposed any major legislation that's passed in any form, he's never been part of a successful negotiating effort, and he's never forged any political alliances. You could have replaced him with a squirrel in a suit and it would have done as much good for America.

[armyowalgreens]

75. You are attempting to marginalize him by saying that he's in a "dreamland"...

We are in a political nightmare. Do you enjoy it?

[Occam Bandage]

76. No, I'm saying he's a marginal politician who could only be successful in the land of your dreams.

Subtle but important difference.

[armyowalgreens]

89. I will gladly take the label "idealist" if it means that I don't act like a fucking dog.

[Occam Bandage]

90. Did anyone offer you that label? I sure didn't. nt

[armyowalgreens]

95. You mock me for refusing to compromise on a bill that is better.

You are a pragmatist. I am an idealist.

Is that really that hard to understand?

[Occam Bandage]

100. Hm? You're not compromising on any bill.

Are you a Congressman? I thought we were just talking about the effectiveness of a politician. You rated him highly effective, and I rated him highly ineffective. I supported my case with his lack of real-world success; you supported your case by claiming effectiveness isn't all that important after all.

[armyowalgreens]

108. Your politicians aren't "effective" at doing anything more than giving us candy coated shit.

You consider shitty legislation "effective".

Yeah they pass bills. What's your point?

At least Kucinich has the judgement to support what's right.



"You're not compromising on any bill. Are you a Congressman?"

Yes that's hysterical. Now your a god damn comedian.

[Selatius]

93. The problem is Democrats still don't control the legislative agenda.

I'm speaking now regardless of Dennis Kucinich or Ted Kennedy.

If one asked for a strong public option from this Congress, I would predict that right wing Democrats and Republicans would ensure that a public option, if it does survive, will only be limited to a small subset of the US populace and only after a lot of means testing and paperwork is filed, and even after that, the help comes with limitations and loopholes. Even if a strong, robust public option is possible, there will be a price exacted in another area: "OK, you can have my vote for your public option, but in exchange you must gut the Employee Free-Choice Act. Introduce an amendment for me stripping out the check card clause in the EFCA, and then you get my vote."

If you want a strong public option with the least amount of damage, you'd need to replace the Blue Dogs and the New Democrats with FDR/Truman type Democrats. Of course, this is a long-term proposition that's bigger than Ted or Dennis.

[Occam Bandage]

97. Democrats do. Liberals don't.

I agree with you that the solution is bigger than individual politicians, but rather is a sustained long-term effort to change the political makeup of the American populace. I hope we can agree that useful intermediary steps are the election of politicians more liberal than their predecessors, and the passing of bills that demonstrate to the public that our ideas work when implemented.

[tekisui]

113. I agree with your assessment of Kucinich, except your last line.

He has accomplished a great deal. In the 2008 Primary, many liberals were mad-a-hell and looked for a candidate. Kucinich brought a lot of people to(or back to) the Democratic Party. He knew he wouldn't win, but he campaigned and picked up pockets of support. His supporters were passionate and ideologues. But, those are the people you want in your camp during a campaign. His supporters didn't disappear, the became Obama supporters and canvassed for him. Kucinich brought them into the political arena, and Democrats at every level benefited, including the President. He was the candidate for the anti-war left. Had he not been there, many would have stayed home or turned to (gasp!)Paul out of ignorance. He pushed the early debate to the left, as well.

[SIMPLYB1980]

37. LOL! nt

[cali]

101. um, no. there was no bullshit here. the resolution was perfectly reasonable

and no, if all politicians were like kucinich, nothing but nothing would get done.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

39. He is very reliable. He votes for what he believes in. You get what you see with him.

A slap on the Wilson's wrist was ridiculous. He deserved censure. Once again the Dems bow down to the Repukes.

[Individualist]

18. +1

[ecstatic]

21. Except when picking out republican vice presidents

(Ron Paul)

[Occam Bandage]

26. And because of that, Kucinich consistently compromises.

With his vote, he just declared that he opposes the disapproval of Joe Wilson. I think that's a pretty hefty compromise.

You can't be in Congress and not compromise. Unless you completely agree or completely disagree with a particular bill, your vote must be a compromise given the binary and first-past-the-post nature of voting.

[JuniperLea]

25. Surprise, surprise, surprise!

[KG]

31. Kucinich voted against a meaningless wrist slap! off with his head!

:eyes:

[Occam Bandage]

34. Live by the bullshit symbolic grandstanding, die by the bullshit symbolic grandstanding. nt

[KG]

109. incoherent anonymous internet bluster; how quaint and rustic.

[Forkboy]

182. Get a grip.

Hopefully on something not between your legs.

[Individualist]

35. DLCers will continue their orgasms until DK explains his no vote.

They detest the man.

[KG]

41. no kidding - this thread is already a glazed donut.

[scarletwoman]

Gads. It's like watching a clique of high school girls preening and crowing because they get to diss

the geeky kid who isn't cool like them.

Obviously, the resolution was going to pass with enough votes to make it safe for Kucinich and Barney Frank (among the 1/2 dozen Dems who also voted no) to express their independent judgement on the matter.

sw

[KG]

79. heh. guess they need a goat, coz with dem majorities on the hill and the WH, they still

cow to the repooks like beaten curs.

[flvegan]

87. ...and there it is.

Thanks for saying that.

[Kansas Wyatt]

36. Kucinich would probably prefer to have an all out brawl to determine...

What we should do about health care, because he would probably end up writing the bill himself.

Okay, I could settle for that.

[armyowalgreens]

43. He has already cosponsored a fucking bill. It's called HR 676.

[SIMPLYB1980]

57. And it will never pass as is.

But that's what you get when your are single payer or nothing. And call your fellow Democrats corporatist if they work on something that could actually pass.

[armyowalgreens]

66. They are corporatists. Why is that such an unbelievable concept to you?

[SIMPLYB1980]

92. Yawn. nt

[Individualist]

110. Don't waste your time.

Using rationale with DLCers is like trying to teach quantum physics to a pig.

[SIMPLYB1980]

122. Didn't you say yesterday that DLC'ers would never

let a republican be held accountable. You were all for censure untill Saint DK voted against it. LOL!

[Individualist]

131. I see ignored below my previous post

[SIMPLYB1980]

140. LOL! Thank god you can put your fingers in your ears and,

say I'm not hearing you, I'm not hearing you, I'm not hearing you, That will get you far.

[armyowalgreens]

142. ...

The person said

" Didn't you say yesterday that DLC'ers would never

let a republican be held accountable. You were all for censure untill Saint DK voted against it. LOL!"

[Individualist]

144. Ummm....

I'm not interested in DLCers' bloviations and lies. That's why I put them on ignore. You chose to pass on the content of the post, and it proves my point. DK did NOT vote against censure. He voted against a slap on the wrist.

[armyowalgreens]

147. That's what I was thinking. I just wanted to verify.

That person also called you a fat face poopy pants.

Or something like that.

[berni_mccoy]

151. Bwahahahaaha! ROTFLMFAO!

:rofl:

[berni_mccoy]

148. This poster is all in a tizzy and thinks he/she is Mary Poppins (see post #55 above)

[armyowalgreens]

149. Maybe he or she is Mary Poppins.

[berni_mccoy]

157. Is EVERYONE who isn't a pure-red Socialist a Corporatist? Sheesh, I'm tired of these fucking labels.

[armyowalgreens]

163. These people are so far from socialist that your question is a little bit illogical.

No they are not socialists. They are also corporatists.

That does not mean that anyone who isn't a socialist is a corporatist.

[berni_mccoy]

169. Did I misread your post? How does that logic work?

What makes them Corporatists? MOST (not all) Dems are Against Corporate interference or influence in Government. Perhaps they should have completely abolished corporate lobbyists as the first item on the agenda.

[Occam Bandage]

67. Yes. A bill that had no chance of ever being passed due to his pathological inability to negotiate.

[armyowalgreens]

71. 676 is the best bill out of all the healthcare bills, is it not?

Yes he has a pathological inability to negotiate away what is best for Americans. What a horrible thing.

:puke:

[Occam Bandage]

80. Yes. But bills aren't inherently any more useful than toilet paper.

What matters is what can get to the President's desk. Politics is about turning ideas into reality. DK's good at coming up with ideas, but shit at the whole "making an actual difference in anyone's life" part of the job.

[armyowalgreens]

85. You are using the failed system to argue against someone trying to fix it.

What good is a bill that makes it to Obama if it's a piece of shit?

Are you content in getting just enough to shut you up?

Yes they throw us a bone to keep us quiet. Sorry, I refuse to roll over.

[Occam Bandage]

91. Has DK ever tried to change the rules of order or the composition of the Congress?

I don't recall him ever doing so.

[armyowalgreens]

106. Yes he has. He has supported and continues to support finance reform.

[Forkboy]

183. Speaking of pathological.

Hows that hate on working for ya?

[Kansas Wyatt]

84. Umm....

If he was the last standing and got to decide, I'm sure he would make sure it was even better for people than HR676. Meaning, he would not give a flying fuck if the top 1% had to pay for all of it as well.

That is why I said that I could settle for him writing whatever he wanted.

Personally, I'd like to see Dennis kick the shit out of Boner, Cantdoer, and Wilson (the original G.I. Joe if you listened to the pubics today) combined...
Boner: Knocked down on his drunk ass.
Cantdoer: Falls down and cries like a baby, as he whines for help to find his glasses.
G.I. Joe Wilson: 'Please stop this torture, I'm a Colonel.'

[ljm2002]

44. Well save yer popcorn on my behalf...

...my head already exploded when I first heard that about half an hour ago.

I was all ready to go "Let's find out who they are and ride them out on a rail!" and then one of them turns out to be my fave, Dennis Kucinich. Dayum!

While he may have his reasons, I strongly disagree with him on this vote. Sure I'd have preferred an outright censure; but doing nothing was really not an option IMO.

[NorthCarolina]

50. It never ceases to amaze me how some 'Democrats' will insanely grasp onto

ANYTHING, no matter how small or insignificant, in an attempt to feverishly condemn one of the few Representatives who has continually sought to better the lives of average folk throughout his entire career. For a group that continually brushes him off as insignificant, or crazy, when he votes in the best interest of the electorate, then vainly attack on any 'NO' vote, drawing conclusions from their ass to fit their agenda. Sad.

[Occam Bandage]

61. "who has continually sought to better the lives of average folk"

How has he managed to better anyone's life during his time in the Congress? Please give examples, preferably in the form of legislation he has successfully gotten passed.

[berni_mccoy]

63. Your talking about how Obama is treated on this site, right?

Oh wait, no, I'm sorry, you're talking about Kucinich, who I have no beef with on this vote, btw. I was an early Kucinich 08 supporter (you can check my journal from that time). But what you just said applies to so many here when they attack Obama.

[NorthCarolina]

69. I didn't attack Obama, and I am not defending Kucinich. I am just commenting on an observation nt

[berni_mccoy]

73. I never said you attacked Obama.

But there are plenty of people on this site who do. And what you just said describes my thoughts about those people to a tee.

[Individualist]

121. "Your talking..."

Go back to fourth grade and learn the difference between your and you're.

[berni_mccoy]

176. Yes Mary Poppins (see post #55), I wilz lurnz gramerz

[Cha]

74. It's the hypocricy...they don't mind condemming Pres Obama

but if it's their candidate then he can do no wrong.

[NorthCarolina]

104. Maybe, but I'm not yet aware of the reason behind DK's no vote. I will wait to hear

what he has to say before passing judgment. On the surface it may seem a disappointment, but his reasons may enlighten as is so often the case. The vote doesn't result in anything of real consequence for Joe Wilson such as censure, so it was really just a sideshow more than anything else. Time wasted on the insignificant? Probably. My guess is he voted against it for the simple fact that it was nothing more than a spectacle with zero consequences in the balance. If that proves true, then I can't say that I don't agree with him. This is not condoning what Wilson did..actually it's quite the contrary..I do feel some consequences would have been in order. This vote though....what purpose does it serve. It's like pissing in a dark suit...it gives you a warm feeling...but nobody notices.

[Cha]

120. IT's against the House Rules and I read

that Dennis didn't think it was strong enough..we shall see.

[berni_mccoy]

107. Just bookmark this thread. It's full of defenses that they call b.s. on when we defend Obama

The next time you are defending Obama, just come back to this thread and you'll be able to find them using the same argument.

[Cha]

117. Good idea.. I already

bookmarked the thread yesterday when john aravosis falsely accused PO of "Blasting Dems"..

"Obama blasts Dems in Congress for wanting to censure Joe "You Lie!" Wilson"
by John Aravosis (DC) on 9/14/2009 12:30:00 PM

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6545399

[azmouse]

130. Done!

:)

[ecstatic]

86. I did one of those political tests a few years back, and Kucinich's *stated* views

were the closest match to mine.

I don't have a problem with the views Kucinich claims to have--I agree with them. My problem with him is that he doesn't really mean it. He's just playing some of us for $$$$. Look into his history. Look at his consistency when it comes to certain key issues. And why oh why would a "liberal champion" want to put a republican on his ticket, a republican who is against healthcare and has ties to white supremacists? I'm not calling DK a racist, I'm just saying, he's full of shit. I caught on to his act a few years back.

[TreasonousBastard]

52. Of course he did. and the Dennisians will come up with a...

dozen half-assed excuses why.

But, really, it's just because he's an asshole. A very bright asshole who gets to the meat of issues and has very principled arguments, but an asshole nonetheless.

[johnnie]

58. I'm still a Kucinich supporter

Sheeeez.

[Junkdrawer]

59. So did Jim McDermott. Barney Franks voted "present"

As expected, the House voted this evening to censure Rep. Joe (You Lie!) Wilson (R-S.C.) for interrupting President Obama’s speech to Congress last week. The vote was 240-179, breaking down largely along party lines. Yet there were a few notable splits: 12 Democrats voted against the resolution, including two of the party’s most liberal members: Reps. Dennis Kucinich of Ohio and Jim McDermott of Washington. “It does not further the process of civility in the House,” McDermott told NEWSWEEK after the vote. “He apologized to the president, and the apology was accepted. That’s all there needs to be.” Five other Dems voted “present” during the vote, including Rep. Barney Frank, who told reporters earlier Wednesday that he didn’t support the resolution. “I think it’s bad precedent to put us in charge of deciding whether people act like jerks,” Frank said. “I don’t have time to monitor everyone’s civility.” Still, seven Republicans crossed party lines to support the Wilson censure, including Rep. Tom Petri of Wisconsin. “The resolution stated that the House doesn’t approve of Mr. Wilson’s actions on the floor, and Mr. Petri doesn’t approve of those actions,” Neil Wright, Petri’s spokesman, told NEWSWEEK. “He didn’t want to be on the record approving of it, which would have been a nay vote, so he voted yea.” Er, OK. A full list of Democrats and Republicans who crossed party lines on the Wilson vote.

http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/thegaggle/archive/2009/09/15/joe-wilson-vote-house-censure.aspx

[berni_mccoy]

65. Frank voted Present because he has a conflict of interest. He was reprimanded before

and doesn't like it. If he would have voted, it would have been a No vote.

[Junkdrawer]

72. I grow weary of the Democrat vs. Republican game...

I'm much more interested in who is challenging the abuse of wealth and power

[Cha]

77. Yeah, wilson broke the rules..and the Dems called him OUT

without Dennis.

[berni_mccoy]

78. It's politics.

[Junkdrawer]

82. Too often it resembles Studio Wrestling n/t

[berni_mccoy]

152. Well, I can't disagree with you on that.

I don't know what Studio Wrestling is.

[Junkdrawer]

164. It's a 'Burgh thing. (The granddaddy of the WWWF).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studio_Wrestling

[Raine]

60. Whatever

:shrug: I don't agree with Kucinich but trust he knows what he's doing.

[SIMPLYB1980]

83. Thats rich from the people who don't want to

trust Obama lest you be labeled a cheerleader by the far left.

[berni_mccoy]

105. You didn't get the memo. Us Obama supporters are held to a double standard.

[Raine]

136. Apparently I'm not allowed to be pro-Obama

and also trust Kucinich (whose action I don't even agree with) supporting them both gets me dumped on ... that's fucked. :-( It's not just the repukes we're pitted against, it's each other too, sad. :-(

[Raine]

135. WHY would you assume such a thing ...

I've always supported Obama and I'll glady be an Obama "cheerleader". If you don't believe I support Obama do a search of my previous posts. I thought my signature line showed my support for Obama, maybe it's not clear enough(?). I'm only saying that Kucinich must have a reason for doing what he did, maybe he thought reprimanding wasn't enough. I think he was WRONG to not vote for rebuke, thought I said I disagreed (puzzled here... disagree means I DON'T AGREE). I personally feel that Wilson should've been censured, I'm outraged by his behavior. Don't be so eager to stereotype, categorize or whatever the hell you're doing ... :-(

[ddeclue]

94. Perhaps he holds the First Amendment in higher esteem than Representative Wilson?

:shrug:

[BlooInBloo]

96. Please describe in detail precisely how ANYTHING Congress considered doing...

is in ANY way relevant to the 1st Amendment?

Here - I'll even give you a kick-start: What are the first five words of the first Amendment?

Thanks!

[ddeclue]

102. I don't agree that it was - I'm just putting myself in DK's shoes and trying to come up with a

reason strong enough to justify voting no. Perhaps DK felt this was using the power of Congress to slap Wilson around in a heavy handed way -chilling free speech.

Whatever his reason, I have to admire DK's restraint - I'd be looking for the "HELL YES" button if asked to vote for censure, not merely "yes".

:D

[SemiCharmedQuark]

98. LOL the first amendment has nothing to do with this.

I didn't support the resolution because I think it's a waste of time and will only give the Republicans a rallying cry. But the fact is that Wilson violated chamber rules and that is what he was reprimanded for. It has as much to do with the first amendment as Glenn Beck's claims RE the boycott of his sponsors.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

99. Maybe he's considering Joe Wilson as a potential running mate.

He did consider Ron Paul after all.

[DevonRex]

115. That must be it.

:evilgrin:

[kenny blankenship]

112. Well, Obama deplored the whole censure thing as a "circus"

in his 60 Minutes interview - a circus that distracts everyone from the health care debate.

so maybe Kucinich is just following his President's lead.

[Individualist]

114. Snap!

:thumbsup:

[subcomhd]

119. And maybe Obama isn't a member of the House whose rules were violated.

he already got HIS apology so of course HE has moved on.

[berni_mccoy]

127. Snap!

[berni_mccoy]

125. Actually, Obama did NOT deplore the rebuke as a circus...

He deplored what Wilson did and what the media would do with it:

KROFT: Do you think that Congressman Wilson should be rebuked? There was talk about that today, and now he's claiming that he is a victim. That he's being attacked.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, see, this is part of what happens. I mean, it becomes a big circus instead of us focusing on health care. You know, this is a story that people will run with for a week. In the meantime, we stopped having a serious debate about how are we going to make sure that insurance companies who don't treat their customers right are checked. That's the conversation I want to have.

He never said he deplored the Resolution.

You might want to read the transcript here: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/09/13/60minutes/main5307481_page8.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody

[kenny blankenship]

So he likes SOME acts of the circus then?

the clowns but not the elephants. Ok that makes sense. Sort of.

[berni_mccoy]

141. Reading comprehension issues? Here's some help

Obama is saying that when someone calls the President a liar on the Floor of the House during an address to a joint session of Congress he violates the rules and hijacks the conversation (i.e. the health care debate) and part of what happens is (that the House must deal with the rules violation and the Media turns it into) a circus.

Does that help?

Good.

[kenny blankenship]

143. Wow, I never understood before that DENNIS KUCINICH IS A RACIST!!111!

Joe Wilson, Dennis Kucinich -they're all in it together!
Thank You. You have indeed helped me.

[berni_mccoy]

WTF?

[subcomhd]

116. Kucinich is worse than useless.

He votes against everything just like Ron Paul. He has never accomplished a thing for working people in this country. He talks a lot but does nothing.

[johnnie]

165. He has never accomplished a thing for working people in this country

Wow! You obviously have never looked at what this man has done since the 70s.

[subcomhd]

171. what is his biggest legislative accomplishment? nt

[azmouse]

118. But Kucinich did vote FOR:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6526491&mesg_id=6526491


:popcorn: :hi:

[subcomhd]

123. Those things are only to be condemned when Obama supports them.

St. D. The Perfect shall not be criticized.

[berni_mccoy]

134. Hammer. Nail. Double. Standard.

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

128. Woah there Nellie! He only voted for those because he wanted something better later.

[subcomhd]

172. and only St. D the Perfect may do that. nt

[JBoy]

133. Dennis has the highest Ppiv in Congress

Ppiv = Probability of a Principled but Ineffective Vote.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

145. So, he refused to join in the marshmallow throw? How awful!!

[mvd]

146. Gotta disagree with Dennis on this one

I love Dennis and think he does a great job in Congress. I wish all members were like him. He does a lot of good in Congress because he's a reminder of what my ultimate goals are. I'm sure he voted no because he wanted censure. But in this case, that's kind of petty. Fighting for higher than reprimand isn't worth it.

[grantcart]

153. Pretty obvious - Dennis always had a soft spot for Mr. Wilson

[Sebastian Doyle]

154. A lot of people showing their true colors in this thread

and it looks like pure Repuke Red to me.... looking for any excuse to bash one of the best Democrats in Congress.

And yes, if everyone was like Dennis Kucinich in Congress we would get a lot of things done, because it would be a TRUE Democratic majority, not a bunch of lying pieces of DLC shit who call themselves "Democrats" but rarely vote that way.

[berni_mccoy]

155. How Rovian of you. Everyone you disagree with is a Republican. Got it.

[Sebastian Doyle]

159. No, but the ones who look for any excuse to bash a good Democrat probably are.

And yes, I realize that YOU were complaining about this particular vote, rather than a general attack on the man. Can't say the same for the DLC short bus crew that took the thread and ran with it though :evilfrown:

[berni_mccoy]

161. The same exact shit happens to Obama here. This thread is a perfect reflection of what goes on

every day here about Obama. The responses to Kucinich voting no on this one resolution is just a tiny sliver of the reactionaries that look to post about Obama. It's made me weary of this place.

[Forkboy]

184. Then instead of saying "snap", you should be upset about both instances.

You're going along with some of the bashing because you think it's making pro-Obama points. Trouble us, by doing so you're engaging, or at the least encouraging, the very same behavior you decry when it's directed towards Obama. So is it wrong or not?

[EmilyAnne]

156. Let's push for a formal reprimand against him, shall we? nt

[berni_mccoy]

158. Voting Yea or No is not a violation of House Rules.

[EmilyAnne]

162. I should have used the sarcasm feature. I was trying to make a joke. Imagine one long string of

formal reprimands, one after the other. It could go on forever. Like the Hatfield and McCoy thing.

I understand wanting to censure Wilson in light of the "town hall spirit" that seems to have seized this nation.
We can't have congressional addresses turning into that sort of thing.
But, I don't see that the reprimand really matters.
The Rs think we look petty and sensitive.
We are now unhappy about the "Nays."
Silly stuff.

[berni_mccoy]

166. Ah, I see. Sorry I missed that. Although...

I'm not unhappy about the Nays. I think whatever reasons they had, they had. I don't agree with the Nays, but I understand Hodes stated reasons. I just think he (and others) are wrong. I am just happy it was passed and it is now done with. Back to the great debate.

[sakabatou]

160. Because this is more like a slap on the wrist than any actual punishment?

The guy broke Congressional didn't he?

[Bucky]

167. What? Kucinich swimming against the tide? I'm shocked. Shocked!

Kooch ain't much for piling on a bandwagon. I assume he was defending the American right to incivility. Perfectly cool with me.

[Rex]

168. I don't

Wilson kinda fucked himself over, I guess he forgot George 'the Asshole' Bush and Dick 'I Shoot People In the Face' Cheney are no longer destroying the national treasury. DK just thought the same thing IMO.

[saltpoint]

170. I happen to think Dennis Kucinich's version of "Sixteen Tons" was goddamned

excellent and will mirthfully punch the lights out of anybody that says different.

Congress is a crossfire of sensibilities. The range is significant.

There are districts like John Boehner's which from the times I've driven through it looks essentially like a few exits off the interstate with the requisite businesses clogging up the exit roads. Kind of a mess, not especially attractive. Plenty of suburbs stretching for miles. I'm not sure Boehner, as wretched a tool as he certainly is, is the worst you could do from a district like that.

Next door in Indiana is Richard Lugar, U.S. Senator, long-ago Mayor of Indianapolis -- Dick Nixon's proclaimed "favorite mayor." Once every 8 or 9 years Lugar does something admirable. But my god it's a long time inbetween those admirable things. There haven't been half a dozen for the duration of his terms in the Senate. If Lugar was never as hideous as Jesse Helms, he also isn't nearly as good as Birch Bayh, with whom he served in the Senate.

Kucinich is still welcome at my house, at my table, at my funeral, at my riverboat race. I like him. I liked him as Mayor of Cleveland. Dennis is MY favorite mayor. In the Congress now, I hope he stays there and forms some alliances to get done what's in his head and his heart. It would be good for everybody.

The Wilson vote can be argued to death but against the backdrop of Kucinich's entire career, it's a speck on a very distant canvas within just a few hours of its being cast.

Dennis, you drop by tomorrow and sing "Sixteen Tons." I'll listen.

[VOX]

173. Equally baffling: Dana Rohrabacher, RW nutcase personified, voted YES.

Dana Rohrabacher, California rep from the 46th District -- Huntington Beach to the Palos Verdes Peninsula, the district includes Huntington Beach, Costa Mesa, Fountain Valley, Seal Beach, Avalon, Rancho Palos Verdes, Rolling Hills, Palos Verdes Estates and Rolling Hills Estates -- most of these are affluent, VERY right wing areas.

Rohrabacher is one of the loudest and craziest of right-wingers in Congress. And he voted Yes for the Wilson Reprimand. Must be Bizarro World. :crazy:

[anigbrowl]

175. Brain swap?

[JonLP24]

177. As I understand it, based on what the news said without actually reading the bill there is no

punishment. Just a bill saying we don't like what you did. Even before finding this thread my first thought was it was a waste a time without any meaningful punishment. I personally don't care how anyone voted for this bill because it's not important. I would like to see them get back to real issues.

[Forkboy]

185. I'm with you on that one.

This is all a bunch of posturing by both sides while the shit further hits the fan on other, actual issues.

[NorthCarolina]

188. Yes, but you neglect those 'Dems' on this board who are ever so desperate

to marginalize and condemn anything that smacks of "Liberalism", and DK is a prime target for them. This "no" vote by DK, is of course an enlightened vote against a worthless measure that carries no weight, a marshmallow throw as someone above put it. But for those 'Dems' that despise liberalism, it is an opportunity to obfuscate the intelligent rationale behind the vote cast by a man they see as the epitome of the Liberal monster they despise. They will poke fun at him on the good votes, and then try to steer the story on votes such as this that lend to creative opportunity without basis in reason or fact. Traditional Democrats would likely understand the significance of this particular "No" vote by DK and support him on principle. But of course, for others it is a chance to hit the ground with "OUTRAGE" against the man.

[madokie]

181. I love Dennis and have a lot of respect for him and will continue too

but it's all about Dennis all the time. He'll never be President of this country and I have to say I'm liking that thought

[watercolors]

186. K has a Napoleanic complex!!!

nt

[jonnyblitz]

187. naaa. he just isn't into political grandstanding. nt

[zorahopkins]

189. Wilson Deserved To Be Chastized!

OMG! Of course Joe Wilson deserved to be chastised for his outburst.

HOW DARE JOE WILSON engage in such disrespectful behavior? As others have said, it is undoubtedly true that Wilson was motivated by a deep-seeded hatred of anyone who is not lily-white, and just cannot stand the fact that an African American is President. For THAT alone, Wilson deserves all the shame and scorn that can be heaped onto him

But more than that, Wilson attacked the policies of a man elected to usher in a new era of peace, prosperity, gender-equality, justice, and love, and in so doing, put himself on the side of the corrupt cronies and thugs of the illegal and immoral tyrants who were part of the Bush-Cheney regime of torture, war, and huge payouts to cronies.

Wilson should be kicked out of the House of Representatives. The sad thing is that the people of his own district elected him, reflecting their own racism and love of tyranny, war, torture, and corruption. After Wilson is kicked out of the House, hus replacement should be elected by the other members of the House of Representatives -- there would be more opportunity to have Wilson replaced by someone who truly understands that racism is not tolerated, and that we are in a NEW ERA of Peace, Prosperity, Justice, Gender-Equality, and Love.

[mdmc]

190. why?

[BuyingThyme]

191. God, who the hell cares.