Do You Have the Right to Flip Off a Cop?

[jeffbr]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090916/us_time/08599192312500

Do You Have the Right to Flip Off a Cop?
By SEAN SCULLY / PHILADELPHIA

David Hackbart was mad, and he wanted to show it, but he didn't think he would end up in federal court protecting his right to a rude gesture and demanding that the city of Pittsburgh stop violating the First Amendment rights of its residents.

Hackbart, 34, was looking for a parking space on busy Murray Avenue in the Squirrel Hill neighborhood on April 10, 2006. Spotting one, he attempted to back into it, but the driver of the car behind him refused to back up and give him sufficient room. Hackbart responded in the classic way. "I stuck my hand out the window and gave him the finger to say 'Hey, jerk, thanks,' " says Hackbart. "That's all I was trying to say - 'Thanks, thanks a lot.' " At that moment, a voice rang out telling Hackbart not to make the rude gesture in public. "So I was like, How dare that person tell me? They obviously didn't see what happened. Who are they to tell me what to say?" he says. "So I flipped that person off. And then I looked, and it was a city of Pittsburgh cop in his car right next to me."

That turned out to be police sergeant Brian Elledge, who happened to be passing in the other direction in his cruiser. Elledge whipped around and pulled Hackbart over, citing him under the state's disorderly-conduct law, which bans obscene language and gestures. And here's where the problem lies, says state American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) legal director Witold (Vic) Walczak: the middle finger and equivalent swear words are not legally obscene. In fact, courts have consistently ruled that foul language is a constitutionally protected form of expression. A famous 1971 Supreme Court case upheld the right of a young man to enter the Los Angeles County Court House wearing a jacket emblazoned with the words "F___ the Draft."

"The law is clear that people have the constitutional right to use profanity, especially when it comes to government officials, because that is a form of political speech," Walczak says. "But despite that, we have police officers regularly misapplying the law to punish people who offend them - that's really what it comes down to."

U.S. District Judge David Cercone ruled in March that the citation, along with the $119.75 court costs imposed by a city court, was clearly unconstitutional. The question, however, is whether the city has a pattern of tolerating this kind of constitutional violation. The ACLU says it found 188 cases from 2005 to 2007 in which people were cited under similar circumstances, despite an entry in the police department's training manual making clear that vulgar speech is not illegal...

[truebrit71]

1. The right? Sure...is it a good idea? Not really...

..unless you like the possibility of getting tased...

[Hepburn]

2. Frankly....

...I often feel a DUTY, not merely a right, to flip off authority!

:evilgrin:

[liberal N proud]

3. Depends...

Can you afford the time to be hassled and quite possibly a ticket?

Don't know of any laws prohibiting such act, but I am sure it would buy quality time with the officer. And if he/she has any reason to write you a summons, there would be no getting out of it after flipping him/her off.

[endless october]

4. i'll never flip another driver off ever again.

put a steering wheel between someone's hands and they lose their MIND.

about ten years ago, i flipped off a tailgating psycho, and he nearly wrecked me trying to get me to pull over so he could beat me up. he was a cop, off duty. he forced me off the road and threatened to hold me there while he called someone to arrest me for whateverthefuck. i decided to just swallow my pride and get out of the situation.

but lesson learned. if you're driving, don't flip someone off, and honestly, don't even use the horn. just let the psychopaths cut you off and go on with your life. people are insane when driving.

[izquierdista]

6. Another lesson

A hothead like that should never be a cop in the first place.

[Echo In Light]

20. Another lesson: sadist, violent goons seek positions of authority as a cover for their a-holishness

[unpossibles]

10. yeah, I had some douchebag in Cincinnati try to run me off the road

I was passing someone and was going to get over to let him pass me, and he kept riding my ass, speeding up dangerously close behind me, backing off a little, then again acting like he was going to ram me. So when I got over and he passed, I flew the bird at him, which he did not like, so he swerved in front of me cutting me off, and slammed his brakes! On the freaking highway full of traffic. My god, it was scary, then he signaled for me to pull off so he could fight me....

Fuck that. Lesson learned.

And to not get angry at asshole drivers anymore, I started smiling to myself and saying out loud, "thank you for almost killing me" - it really works and cracked me up every time, so I did not even get mad but was instead thankful their bad driving did not kill me.

[pipi_k]

11. Wow that must have been scary...

too bad you didn't have a hidden camera or recording device or something, you know? Guys like that don't even belong on the force.


I've actually seen articles that tell people to not even make eye contact with someone who's acting like a jerk. I think that's an excellent idea. We hear too many stories these days about people getting beaten (or even killed) over stupid things like parking spaces... and even if they don't get you over to the side, some of those crazies may be carrying guns and can just shoot and drive away.

[endless october]

19. good idea re : no eye contact.

i guess i follow that rule as well.

i have no desire to engage another driver. if he wants to be a jerk, he can fight somebody else.

[pipi_k]

38. And the other thing I always stress, especially to my daughter...

if you suspect, or actually know, you're being followed by someone who is acting in a strange manner, go straight to the nearest police or fire station if possible.

Never go to your own home.


Of course, nowadays just about everyone has a cell phone, so even just calling 911 would help, and getting a photo of the person and the car can go a long way if needed.


Crazy...some of the nicest people turn into real assholes when they're behind the wheel... :scared:

[TxRider]

72. You should try commuting by motorcycle..

It can get pretty damn scary at times over stuff like that.

Especially when the kids these days ride wheelies down freeways and act like they own the road on bikes.

[Buzz Clik]

15. Yeah, it's not a good idea. I've witnessed more than one person go psycho over that gesture.

[wolfgangmo]

18. My wife, who is much smarter than me taught me this trick.

Smile like a goof and wave nicely at them. Make sure they see that you are clueless and happy.

This has 2 effects; first it pisses them off beyond comprehension, but second, they realize that they can't do anything about it because they would then have to explain to the judge that "yah, I ran him off the road and beat the piss out of him because he smiled at me..."

Since I have been doing this (when I used to flip the bird or do the arm pump) it has worked great. I can often see the blood pressure spike in their heads with the veins visible from a football field off, but they drive on their way knowing that if they do anything that they are royally screwed. And that makes it real easy for me to grin like a fool.

[Gman2]

27. There is only one cure for tailgating, and it takes a village.

Just take your foot off the gas. No threat, no danger, you are creating a space behind you. After a few drivers go slower when they are tailgated, it will be obvious, that it is counterproductive.

[TuxedoKat]

40. Haha!!!

I do the same thing!

[TxRider]

73. That's what I always do

Big ole smile... Disarms them or makes em go ballistic one or the other.

[Gman2]

26. Yup, let the insane run the assylum.

The aggressive, do as they will. I had a hummer run a red after two minutes, almost killing ten cars in pileup. Then, they were pounding fists, when they narrowly escaped. I turned the left, saw them at the bank. I confronted them, and called the guy a fucking piece of shit. He moved towards me, and I informed him, that if he moved closer, my helmet would remove his motherfucking head. All the chickenshits were using their phones to go youtube and be heroes. The cops, whern I told them, warned ME that I was on notice. I told her to stfu unless she had a better plan than mine, which was to detain them till police arrived. She said she had no better plan. Then, the crooked cops, that wouldnt do their fudking jobs, shows up at my home two weeks later, to search for a girl in my crawlspace. Same cops. Same ones I ruined in court, as the crooked judge sided with crooked made up laws. AG had their asses in a sling.

If we allow the rude and dangerous to succeed in scaring us into cowering, they win.

[JANdad]

29. Uh Huh....

right...

[MineralMan]

46. You betcha....you da man, fer shure.

Feh!

[TuxedoKat]

39. Me too.

I don't let rude drivers bother me. Who knows when some wacko might just go off and pull out a gun. It's much better for your
blood pressure too just to let it go.

[cbdo2007]

51. I agree - I've been in similar situations and it's just not worth it.

[HopeHoops]

5. Of COURSE you do!

You also have the right to remain silent...

[Ian David]

7. I had that fight years ago and won. Not in court, but with the cop's boss.

Mostly because the cop's response was to offer to fight me when he gets off duty.

Reason I gave the cop the finger? He apparently didn't like my bumper stickers, so he was deliberately maneuvering to keep me in my lane so I couldn't get off at my exit.

My thinking was that when he was doing that, he wasn't acting in his capacity as a cop, and therefore fell into the category of any other asshole on the road, even if he DID happen to be driving a police cruiser.

If given the chance, I would NOT do that again.

[Iggo]

8. I do the "eye scratch" thing.

Same effect (makes me feel better) and no jail time.

[ShortnFiery]

31. If you wear glasses, you can ease up your right middle finger: a faux effort to push them up.

:evilgrin:

[ShortnFiery]

33. p.s. suggest if you choose to do this, don't attempt until AFTER you're handed the ticket. eom

[kenny blankenship]

81. Pittsburgh is POLITENESSTOWN and don't you motherfuckers foget it!

[Iggo]

87. Right you are, Ken.

[Barack_America]

9. The right? Yes. The common decency to not do it? Also, yes.

I don't want to conduct myself like rude-ass Addison Graves "Joe" Wilson.

[Orsino]

12. Does a cop have a right not to be offended in the line of duty? n/t

[wolfgangmo]

30. Cops have few rights while on duty and many duties.

As an officer you have taken an oath to uphold the law (among other things)to the best of your ability.

That means that you don't get to get pissed off, etc. when dealing with the public. Many of them take everything personally and they eventually ruin it for all the good officers.

[Orsino]

60. Yep.

Cops must have to learn to ignore a lot, but that responsibility can't help but breed a sense of entitlement.

[T Wolf]

85. "an oath to uphold the law". That's the funniest thing i have heard today. Thanks for the laugh.

[otherlander]

68. No.

[Jokerman]

13. I've done it before and I'll do it again.

The cops in this city are some of the worst drivers around. Most of them wouldn't know a turn signal if it bit them in the ass. They apparently became cops so they wouldn't have to follow the same rules the rest of us do.

Considering the number of armed loonies behind the wheel these days it is probably safer to flip off a cop than another citizen.

[Buzz Clik]

14. Was this near an Olive Garden by chance? Best Buy? A nursing mother involved?

[rd_kent]

53. Huh?

[Buzz Clik]

62. It's a classic discussion at DU (as were the others)

Somebody baits a cop by being disrespectful, and the cop overreacts. The heated discussion ensues in which the divisions become big and the tempers short.

[damntexdem]

16. Sure. And you also have a right to drink a bottle of Drano.

I don't advise either.

[Rebubula]

56. Bingo

Never smart to fuck with the Dynamite Monkey

[damntexdem]

17. But what to do when flipped off. Here's what I do:

I yell: "Yes, that's right! We're number one! We're number one!"

[Butch350]

41. When someone flips me, I usually wave like it's someone I know.

I get a confused look and they just drive on.

[TuxedoKat]

42. Haha!

You should rent the movie "Opportunity Knocks", you'd enjoy it.

[TxRider]

71. I just give a great big smile..

Half the time they just get a WTF look

Half the time it makes em madder...

[trayfoot]

21. Speech - YES! Good judgment - NO!

[cherokeeprogressive]

22. "So I flipped that person off. And then I looked..."

I wonder how many black eyes this guy's had...

[Coventina]

23. No, you can be arrested for disorderly conduct. It has happened

to someone very close to me.

And no, it wasn't me.

[ret5hd]

47. You didn't read the story, did you? 'Cause yes, you do too.

[Coventina]

88. Well, we may have the "right", but that doesn't stop one from being

arrested & prosecuted for disorderly conduct around here.

[blueworld]

24. I've done it, & loved it, but I have grown up (some) since

See, in NJ, whenever a town needs revenue, they set up a bunch of cops to do onsite "inspections" usually in sneaky places you can't avoid even if you knew they were there. My car was registered, inspected & insured properly, but I'd noticed my headlight was cracked a day or two before. It didn't work, but I got caught in the web of pork during the day - didn't need the headlight, but it was still technically wrong.

Officer Dufus checked my registration, my insurance, my license, my blood type, looked over the inside of my car, couldn't cite me for carrying 88 pairs of shoes in the back seat & was getting frustrated until he looked at the headlight.

Gleefully wrote me a ticket, which I accepted graciously (honestly) because I knew it was to be expected. Figured I'd get the repair & pay the ticket that weekend until...he scraped off my damned inspection sticker & stuck a "failed" sticker on the windshield!

Pissed me off! I'd have to sit in some 3 hour line AGAIN because he wanted revenue???? The ticket wasn't enough??? Miserable bass turd. I flipped him off as I pulled out - enjoyed it immensely & loved the look on his face because he couldn't jump in the car & follow me.

Yeah, I've matured (a little), but I still cherish the memory. :evilgrin:

[mitchum]

89. I like to hum "Amazing Grace" when I'm talking to pigs like that

[populistdriven]

25. I mooned a cop once who had just written me a ticket for running a stop sign on my bicycle

It was a right hand turn at a 4 way stop with no other cars even close to the intersection.

he handed me the ticket and all i was wearing was bike shorts, so where was i supposed to put it?

i pulled down the back of my shorts more than necessary and shoved it in there

the cop was directly behind me

[NJmaverick]

28. In my opinion yes you do

for what it's worth

[JVS]

32. Hell. We have the obligation to flip off cops!

[T Wolf]

34. Disorderly conduct is the cop version of put-you-in-jail for whatever-the-fuck they want

to.

It is used as a catch-all for pigs to exert their "authority" over civilians.

[Jkid]

48. China also had an offense similar to disordely conduct

It's called hooliganism, that was removed from the chinese penal code in 1997. I think it's time that Americans got rid of disorderly conduct laws.

[TexasObserver]

78. Disorderly Conduct is the charge they use when they don't have a charge.

Professor Gates, for example.

[ThatsMyBarack]

35. I try to avoid flipping anyone off.

What goes around comes around, you know.

[ShortnFiery]

37. So true. And in today's world, we don't know who's packing heat. eom

[rd_kent]

54. Thats right! Because if you piss off someone carrying a gun, you will get shot

every time. Because anyone that would carry a gun MUST be an asshole just LOOKING for a reason to shoot someone, right?

You. are. an. ass.

[ShortnFiery]

55. Wow, talk about an over-reaction. Newsflash: Not everyone carrying a firearm is mentally

stable. I did not mean to imply that EVERYONE who carries firearms is going to experience road rage or even "the majority" would misbehave.

I own firearms but I keep my rifles and shot guns at home. I'm blessed to not be in a profession where I would need to carry them "open" or "otherwise."

My point was that we don't know the mental state of people in the other vehicles. Often times when shots are fired, it's the poor damn passenger who DIDN'T cause the road rage who gets shot and killed. Now that's the true tragedy.

You. are. rude.

[rd_kent]

61. How can I overreact to your post?

You state "you never know who might be packing heat." You gave no additional info in the body of your post, so I took your headline to mean just what it says.
If I took your meaning wrong, I apologize, but next time, perhaps you should be more clear and avoid broadbrush generalizations.

[ShortnFiery]

65. Hey wait, I'm a fellow gun owner. We've won the WAR - Obama and the democrats are NOT

going to take our beloved firearms.

I made the comment as "a quip." I realize there are people, in rural areas and in certain professions who need to carry firearms. Instead of behaving rude to my tongue-in-cheek comment, you could have asked for clarification.

Next time I'll label it. But IMO, that doesn't excuse you going off half-cocked and calling me "an ass."

:yoiks: I"M STILL TWEAKING YOU! = We're on the same side.

p.s. I can behave like a smart-ass. Point taken. ;)

[rd_kent]

69. No worries.

Too often I see posts like yours that are not meant to be sarcasm. My apology still stands.

[ShortnFiery]

74. Thanks.

That was very thoughtful.

You have a point, in that, I can behave sort of brusque at times.

Apology fully accepted and best wishes to you. :hi:

[voteearlyvoteoften]

36. How bout fist shaking...can we roll our eyes???

The morality police surely have better things to do.

[treestar]

43. I don't think cops should make an issue of this

Makes them look small, IMO

[Toasterlad]

44. Just Like Teasing a Tiger: Yes, But I Wouldn't Recommend It

Odds are good the cop would be one of the taser-happy ones.

[TexasObserver]

45. Yes, it's a right, but one that almost all police ignore and trample.

[Echo In Light]

58. Shocking, eh?

[TexasObserver]

76. Yes, it's shocking that many of our police openly violate the constitution.

Not just in that manner, but in many respects. Expecting drivers to consent to searches, for example, and then contriving reasons to justify a search are common practices of police nationwide.

[Stinky The Clown]

77. So ..... almost all has now been reduced to "many"

How many cops are there?

How many of them do what you say they're doing?

Is that "many"?

Or, is that a few bad apples who need to be locked up.

Subtle hyperbole is hyperbole nonetheless. Pretty childish from a moral stickler like you.






You got kids?

[Stinky The Clown]

64. "..... almost all police ....."?

Can you cite a basis for that or is this just you blowing smoke out of your ass with a juvenile broad brush statement?



Do you have kids?

[MineralMan]

84. And you can document that, right?

Almost all police, eh? Well...

[MineralMan]

49. Sure. You have the right to be a dumbass, too.

It's not always a good idea. I quit flipping people off when I was about 25. I just shine them on now. My blood pressure's high enough.

[Kali]

50. I flip the Border Patrol off regularly.

I get along with the local deputies.

[TicketyBoo]

52. Right? I suppose.

But, in my opinion, it is an unwise move.

The smaller minded the cop, the bigger he thinks he is. The two are a dangerous combination.

Daddy always said to act like you respect a cop, whether you do or not. Disrespecting a cop just ain't worth the trouble.

[quiller4]

57. Yes. Hand signs are protected speech. n/t

[uncle ray]

63. unless you're a black urban youth.

[Vidar]

59. Yes, but they'll just arrest you for something else.

[izzybeans]

66. In Chicago, it is our duty.

The latest case of police misconduct involves an asshole who beat up a bus driver for driving in front of his bike.

He jumped on board the bus and beat him to a pulp.

[ShortnFiery]

67. It happens out here in more rural areas also. :(

The Police in our area shot a depressed man in the back as he was walking back into his empty home. Six eyes witnesses testified that he had his handgun down at his side and the coroner found 4 police round entry wounds in his back, but SOMEHOW, the officers were cleared of ANY wrongdoing. :(

[leveymg]

70. Other case law says when directed at a person it's Assault, not constitutionally protected speech

It's like shaking a fist or yelling "fuck you" at a person. "Fuck the Draft" is a political statement. Depends upon the circumstances.

[proteus_lives]

75. Right? Yeah. Is it smart? No.

Hackbart is an immature asshole but he has the right to be so. But adults don't flip off people and smart people don't piss off cops.

[Hutzpa]

80. He did not know

the guy was a cop until he looked.

[proteus_lives]

83. I know.

But flipping anyone off is still a childish thing to do. He was acting like an asshole.

[Hutzpa]

79. It is your constitutional right

but the interpretation of the Law comes into play, whereas, political affiliation can
influence a judges decision on civil matter. Thats why it is important to get more
Liberal judges than Conservative judges.

A conservative judge will see that as a gross disrespect to the law while a liberal judge
will see it as your constitutional right and throws the case out.

[frogmarch]

82. Wear mittens if you want the

satisfaction of flipping off a cop without risking repercussions. I used to keep mittens handy just for this purpose.

[KurtNYC]

86. I don't understand the headline - he didn't flip off the cop

he flipped off the other driver. It can and does lead to physical violence so whether it is a right or not, it is usually a stupid idea.

Negative energy attracts negative energy. I see it in the subway, when someone gets on with an especailly bad attitude it will pull someone else into an altercation with them like a magnet. Or perhaps like a moth to a flame.

[Seldona]

90. Apparently so.

The U.S. District Court ruled the charge and fines unconstitutional. Good to know.