How many people here think we shouldn't kill animals?

[Tim01]

I'm just curious.

I'm a hunter and a farmer, so I do some killing. And I actually think that the further we are removed from what actually happens in nature, the more we will wreck nature.

A city person recently moved to our area and immediately started complaining the neighbors lot was tall grass instead of a mowed lawn. And how it probably had mice and other animals and disease. That is what we call a hay field.

I have nothing against vegans or vegetarians necessarily, I just don't agree. One of my kids will probably end up vegetarian, and that's fine. He also helps caretake our property, so he comes from an educated point of view. He knows the blood and death that is nature. He would just prefer not be a part of it. Fair enough.


Trying to polish off my squirrel stew.

[Oregone]

1. "I have nothing against vegans or vegetarians necessarily"

Being a vegetarian may have nothing to do with killing animals (its a gross generalization for you to link the issues together). Some people may just not want colon cancer

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tim01]

15. Fair enough. No offense intended. Sorry. nt

[cliffordu]

39. And some believe that eating meat will give you colon cancer

isn't a gross generalization.

[Oregone]

47. Meat consumption and risk of colorectal cancer.

Chao A, Thun MJ, Connell CJ, McCullough ML, Jacobs EJ, Flanders WD, Rodriguez C, Sinha R, Calle EE.

Epidemiology and Surveillance Research, American Cancer Society, Atlanta, Ga 30329-4251, USA.

CONTEXT: Consumption of red and processed meat has been associated with colorectal cancer in many but not all epidemiological studies; few studies have examined risk in relation to long-term meat intake or the association of meat with rectal cancer. OBJECTIVE: To examine the relationship between recent and long-term meat consumption and the risk of incident colon and rectal cancer. DESIGN, SETTING, AND PARTICIPANTS: A cohort of 148 610 adults aged 50 to 74 years (median, 63 years), residing in 21 states with population-based cancer registries, who provided information on meat consumption in 1982 and again in 1992/1993 when enrolled in the Cancer Prevention Study II (CPS II) Nutrition Cohort. Follow-up from time of enrollment in 1992/1993 through August 31, 2001, identified 1667 incident colorectal cancers. Participants contributed person-years at risk until death or a diagnosis of colon or rectal cancer. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE: Incidence rate ratio (RR) of colon and rectal cancer. RESULTS: High intake of red and processed meat reported in 1992/1993 was associated with higher risk of colon cancer after adjusting for age and energy intake but not after further adjustment for body mass index, cigarette smoking, and other covariates. When long-term consumption was considered, persons in the highest tertile of consumption in both 1982 and 1992/1993 had higher risk of distal colon cancer associated with processed meat (RR, 1.50; 95% confidence interval , 1.04-2.17), and ratio of red meat to poultry and fish (RR, 1.53; 95% CI, 1.08-2.18) relative to those persons in the lowest tertile at both time points. Long-term consumption of poultry and fish was inversely associated with risk of both proximal and distal colon cancer. High consumption of red meat reported in 1992/1993 was associated with higher risk of rectal cancer (RR, 1.71; 95% CI, 1.15-2.52; P = .007 for trend), as was high consumption reported in both 1982 and 1992/1993 (RR, 1.43; 95% CI, 1.00-2.05). CONCLUSIONS: Our results demonstrate the potential value of examining long-term meat consumption in assessing cancer risk and strengthen the evidence that prolonged high consumption of red and processed meat may increase the risk of cancer in the distal portion of the large intestine.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15644544

[cliffordu]

48. And I can post studies that show vegetarianism leads to

manboobs and osteoporosis.

We are omnivores by physiology, you are a vegetarian by choice.

Your statement about colon cancer and meat doesn't 'meat' the requirement for generalized, sweeping all encompassing truths.

[Oregone]

54. Then do so

Im not a vegetarian. Im a piscatarian anyway. Im pretty confidant in the healthy nature of my eating habits.

[RaleighNCDUer]

51. I have to wonder if anyone has factored in the way the meat is raised.

Does general condemnation of red meat apply to beef (what other 'red meat' is there?) that is raised free of hormones and anti-biotics and is free-range grass fed instead of feedlot grain fed?

Perhaps the problem is less with meat than with what we do to it.

[Oregone]

57. It may

Livestock diets impact the fatty acid makeup of the meat substantially

[cliffordu]

59. The way feedlot animals are treated is my biggest reasons to avoid meat.

Because I live where I do, there's the (expensive) option of buying meat that has been treated humanely and allowed to free graze, and never locked down for fattening. or fed other cattle.

I'm looking to eat a lot more game meat and locally grown buffalo, too.

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. And the ammounts

high consumption of meat is more than the portion usually recommended. Remember, for most of human history meat has been more of a garnish than a main course. Why gout was the disease of the wealthy who could afford to eat red meat, or any meat for that matter.

Hell, people forget that until recently, a generation ago, chicken was more expensive than beef.

of course the cost of cheap food is starting to rear its ugly head, but that is another matter.

[uppityperson]

67. "but not after further adjustment for body mass index, cigarette smoking, and other covariates"

High intake of red and processed meat reported in 1992/1993 was associated with higher risk of colon cancer after adjusting for age and energy intake but not after further adjustment for body mass index, cigarette smoking, and other covariates.

[Craftsman]

2. Vegan, old native American word for lousy hunter

[Maru Kitteh]

27. That joke is so old and worn that it's like having a neon arrow pointing towards yourself that says

stupid.

[RaleighNCDUer]

53. First time I heard it.

I laughed.

[BlooInBloo]

74. Me too. I lol'd.

[Craftsman]

60. Meat it is whats for dinner

and breakfast, and lunch. Heck I think I will have some wild hog sausage tonight. I hunted with a friend last month to help cull the hogs on his lease.

[Critters2]

71. Meat. It's what's rotting in your colon. nt

[Maru Kitteh]

82. Long pig. It's the other, other white meat.

[Swede]

56. LOL

thanks for posting this one.

[Ignis]

66. "Carnivore," old Sanskrit word for colon cancer.

:dunce:

I'm so glad we could keep this discussion civil, aren't you?

[Craftsman]

89. Man was designed to eat meat as well as veggies.

[Ignis]

91. "Man" was "designed" to eat nothing but cotton candy.

See? I provided just as much support for my unfounded assertion as you did!

I'm sure we convinced quite a few people with these strong arguments.

:eyes:

[T Wolf]

3. Just because we can kill non-humans with impunity does not mean we should.

My belief is that they have as much "right" to a life safe from slaughter and abuse as we humans do.

Maybe some day, if humans survive long enough, our species will evolve to the point where we act humanely.

[TwilightGardener]

4. I don't understand killing animals for sport. I don't get the joy in hunting--

that said, I also don't want to hit deer on my rural highways at night in autumn and winter. So I leave the issue alone. Eating meat, no prob. What else is a cow or chicken good for?

[Statistical]

5. Cows are very good at being cows! n/t

[TwilightGardener]

8. I live near lots and lots of cows. Imagine what would happen if

we just set them all free to roam, like bison 150 years ago...boy, you'd PRAY it was "just" a deer in your headlights.

[Statistical]

20. Maybe they would make cars with cow scrappers like old locamotives?

[wicket]

64. My family doesn't hunt animals for sport, we kill them for the meat

Gonna have some venison tonight in fact!

[uppityperson]

68. manure for your garden

[Brickbat]

6. I eat animals, but fewer than I used to. I'd like to learn how to hunt, and my son and I practice

with bows to get good enough to hunt for deer on our land. We have way too many of them. And venison's tasty.

[wicket]

65. I love bow hunting!

Never got anything with it, but maybe this year's the year! Mmmmmm venison

[tularetom]

7. What kind of question is that?

There's a lot more to it than a yes or no issue. I enjoy shooting preparing cooking and eating game birds. At the same time I get teary eyed when one of our dogs or cats dies and I'd like to tie Michael Vick to a tree in a yard full of starving dogs and cover him with hamburger.

Should we? I don't know. We've been doing it for thousands of years.

[Maru Kitteh]

28. This vegetarian would be happy to bring the hamburger for that event.

Yup!

[sinkingfeeling]

10. I don't think we should kill animals just because we can or because we think it's 'fun' or 'sport'.

I was also raised on a farm and had over 250 head of hogs and several beef calves as a teenager. I knew very well that those animals were destined to be killed. However, I named each and every one, took great care of them, played with them, and cared very much about them.

I really don't have a problem with farm animals as long as they are treated well, have freedom during their lives, and are killed in the most humane manner possible. What I hate is those who think renting an airplane and a 'guide' to chase down wild animals and shoot them, is 'sport'.

[Craftsman]

61. I only shoot what I will eat.

[Burma Jones]

11. The River Cottage Meat Book addresses this subject well

Basically boils down to humane treatment of livestock and ethical game hunting.......if you're going to kill something, you ought to eat it.

I eat meat and make every attempt to buy local humanely raised Beef, Poultry and Pork for my freezer........

[pundaint]

12. Huh

What does a hay field have to do with killing animals?
What does our modern meat industry have to do with nature?

[Lautremont]

73. I guess animals live in a hay field, so mowing it into a regular lawn will

deprive them of their home and probably their lives; and "our modern meat industry" regularly causes chemical-laden shit to flow into the lakes and rivers, thereby fucking up nature.

[Lorien]

13. Ah yes, Tim01 starts yet another innocent, progressive thread

aimed at inspiring thoughtful discussion. :eyes:

[dionysus]

38. i don't really find anything offensive about it. the discussion is civil...

no ones making fun of vegans or anything... if it was intended to be flamebait it failed.
:shrug:

[Ignis]

84. That's not funny.

At all. I promise. I'm not even giggling a tiny bit. Nope.

[SOS]

14. There's a big difference

between the hunter who uses his prey to sustain himself and the corporate animal feeding operations.
Personally, I have not eaten meat in 16 years and my doctor says I'm her only payient who's health has actually improved with age.

While I have nothing against someone who hunts because he is starving and needs food, I would never give a dime to Republican animal-abusing corporations.

[HopeHoops]

16. As a 20 year vegetarian, I have much more respect for hunters than those who buy meat

A hunter takes responsibility for the kill, and most use the animal parts as completely as possible. I've seen my share of shitheads who think hunting is about drinking a shitload of beer and shooting at anything that moves, but I believe the vast majority of hunters are responsible and understand that they are taking life to feed their families.

The same is true with farming. If you are raising the animals to feed yourself or make an income, you understand what you are doing and taking responsibility for it. That is your choice.

I decided to abandon meat as a food source 20 years ago both for ethical and health reasons. Meat is not a necessary component of the human diet, and mostly a detrimental one. While physiologically we are omnivores, there is nothing meat provides that is not readily available from other sources. The "protein" myth persists, but it has long been dismissed. B-12 is the only problem, but that's a vegan issue. Milk and eggs provide it. I simply do not want to contribute to the unnecessary slaughter of animals. That is my choice.

Those who purchase meat on a tray wrapped in plastic take no responsibility for what they are eating. They are so far removed from the reality of a fresh field kill and the ugliness of our disgusting slaughter house practices. The only difference between that package of meat and a package of broccoli is that most of them don't EAT broccoli! Fast food is even worse. What the fuck IS that shit they pass off as meat? I'm sure there are cow parts in there somewhere, but come on!

I think we shouldn't kill animals. However, hunter and farmer, I respect you and your use of animals as food. There is no shame in that.

[Oregone]

22. Beyond those reasons, the environment and global warming are impacted by mass agriculture

While a hunter gets their meat from animals that have low environmental impact growing naturally, the shopping market consumer gets animals that come from lands where entire forests are chopped down for grazing. The grains to feed them are grown from fertilized fields. The meat needs to be refrigerated and transported in mass quantities. The packaging itself has eventual environmental consequences.

[HopeHoops]

29. Agreed (read on)

I didn't want to turn the post into "Gone With The Wind". You can only get so much in before it hits "yawn" status.

John Robbins (heir to Baskin Robbins) wrote a book called "Diet for a New America". That's what turned us. It is about half health related and half ethics related. Very well documented. At the time, they threw male chicks in plastic garbage bags (alive). Now they throw them in grinders (alive). Perhaps he'll update the book.

There is a 16:1 loss in protein in the production of beef and a 5:1 loss in chicken. There is a 1:1 equality in grain.

I have three healthy, lean, and strong daughters, 14, 16, and 18. They are all life-long vegetarians (by their own choice). I don't want to hear any shit about it being an unhealthy diet.

[dana_b]

34. +1

One of my favorite books, The Omnivore's Dilemma, goes through the each process and it really has changed the way my family and I eat. I'm a vegetarian but my daughter is not but she has a much greater awareness and appreciation for the animals and what she puts into her body.

[wicket]

63. Well said

:thumbsup:

[BlooInBloo]

75. Totally. I don't respect people who buy cars, either. Only those who build their own.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

17. I've met very few vegans or vegetarians who are what they are because they are against killing

Most don't trust or care for how the meat is prepared, and many just don't find it healthy or tasty.

[a la izquierda]

42. My husband and I are against the killing.

God, my husband won't even kill spiders in the house (despite my extreme arachnophobia). They get captured and put in the garden, for me to re-discover while weeding :(

[Critters2]

72. I want to cause as little suffering as possible in this life. So, no meat for me. nt

[eShirl]

18. Years ago, my vegetarian brother's car was totaled when a deer leapt across the road in front of it.

To make a long story short, he ate that deer then resumed his vegetarianism to this day.

Some would argue the deer committed suicide.



Personally, I couldn't kill a mammal (save in self defense), might or might not be able to kill a bird, but could kill fish with no problems whatsoever. If I thought reptiles or amphibians might be tasty I suppose I could kill one of those too, but yecch.

[TxRider]

26. Some reptiles are quite tasty

Turtles especially and alligator for example.

I hear Iguanas are good too, never tried one though.

Snakes taste ok I guess, but not something I'd seek out to eat.

[SIMPLYB1980]

44. Reptiles taste like chicken, but

stay away my my Draco!

[Coventina]

19. "I'm just curious"

Your subject thread is completely disingenuous.

"Shouldn't kill animals" can range from using antibacterial soap to the death penalty (humans ARE animals, after all).

Maybe some of us just want to reduce the amount of suffering in the world.

It doesn't mean that you have to be a vegan or a vegetarian, but it does mean that you should be aware of your choices and the impacts they have on your fellow creatures.

[CrispyQ]

33. A perfect response!

"...it does mean that you should be aware of your choices and the impacts they have on your fellow creatures."

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[ShadesOfGrey]

36. Perfect response!

:applause:

[FarCenter]

40. Bacteria aren't animals -- but you might also kill some protozoa, which are

It's not clear which of the millions of species of animals he wants an opinion on.

[Fire1]

21. That is a complex question. I, for one, have never been

'crazy' about meat and lean toward poultry. I DO eat meat every now and then mainly for protein intake. I also realize that there has to be a thinning of the herd in all aspects of the food chain but PERSONALLY I am against killing animals.

[Gman2]

23. For various reasons, I'm poor, I would starve, if veg. Meat, in the markdown section is far

more calorie dense.

[BoneDaddy]

24. I have no problem

with it as long as it is done with the correct intention. If one's intention is to use the whole animal (or as much as you can) and animals bred for eating are treated with compassion, sure. It is the whole animal factory industry that is often so abhorent.

[Maru Kitteh]

25. I would prefer to state my position thusly

I think it would be beneficial to the species as a whole if we moved sharply away from animal flesh as a major dietary component. Current trends are simply not sustainable, and if people truly understood the massive scale of suffering factory farming has created I think most of them would be appalled.

I adamantly oppose all forms of cruelty to animals and people.

I do say that I have more respect for those who hunt for their animal foods than those who buy it in colorful packages, processed into funny shapes with cute little names so they never have to think about what they're sticking into their mouth.

I think we should farm and kill far, far fewer animals than we do.

[litlady]

30. Agreed. I believe in ahimsa - nonviolence to all creatures including humans.

I too respect those who understand what they kill better than those afraid to see. One of my family members tells me to turn off the "Iron Chef" show if they are preparing raw meat because it's gross but then makes it herself. If people saw the factory farming and meat industry, they would be surprised.

I have worked on a farm and taken care of many animals destined for meat, including veal. It was that experience that made me realize how unnecessary it is. One does not need meat to live, and there is no reason to kill to live, so thus I have not done it in 16 years.

[ShadesOfGrey]

35. Well said! I agree. nt

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bonn1997]

32. Depends. Killing animals for food is part of survival. Killing them for pleasure is sick and disgust

ing to me.

[SIMPLYB1980]

37. Killing for pleasure is disgusting to any real hunter.

I got a deer this weekend, and a goose and some doves last week. All will be eaten and thanked for their sustenance. I take no pleasure in killing an animal, but I do take pleasure in providing food for my family the old fashioned way.

[Mari333]

41. I dont kill animals

nor do I use their bodies for anything.
I cannot control what other people do, however.
Actually, I save a lot of them.

[boomerbust]

43. Pheasants and Grouse

Finest table fare put on this earth by the Lord to be enjoyed.

[n2doc]

45. If you kill them and eat them, and do so efficiently

I have no problem with that. It is the folks who 1, shoot for trophies or "the thrill of the hunt" and don't eat their game, and 2, those who use inadequate weapons for the job so that the game dies a slow death from bleeding- those I have problems with.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

46. I would love the wortld to go veg --

I think we would be a better species and create a better planet for it.

I grew up in a city but spent a great deal of time in nature on the weekends - the more in-tune with Nature I got, the further I got from wanting to hurt the creatures I found there. I have interacted with too many animals of all kinds to ignore what I discovered: most of them experience fear, contentment, excitement, and other states of emotion. To voluntarily inflict emotional/physical pain on another creature is just not in my nature.

[Ignis]

83. "Voluntarily" is the word, isn't it?

I'm sure most of us have the fortitude to do whatever we need to do to survive, but the subtle difference between "necessary" and "tastes good and is convenient" was the line in the sand that moved me to try vegetarianism.

Thanks for your thoughtful post. :hi:

[samsingh]

49. i'm a vegetarian

[Taverner]

50. I am an omnivore and I don't think we should kill animals

Ethically, the vegetarians are right.

But I love meat.

Yes, selfish I know

But I can imagine many slave owners felt the same way

[proteus_lives]

85. Are you comparing eating meat to slavery?

"Ethically, the vegetarians are right"

Why?

[gauguin57]

52. I object to the way animals are produced, raised and killed for food.

See "Food, Inc."

I don't eat meat or poultry mainly for that reason (and also partially for health reasons). Many animals -- especially those produced by mega-farms and big corporations -- have horrible lives and deaths. And I don't care to eat their flesh, thanks very much.

My dad was a hunter, and we ate everything he killed. I wasn't crazy about it, but at least nothing was wasted. He even got the deer hides tanned for use in various ways. My dad grew up poor, and hunting helped feed his family (and helped feed our family when my parents were just starting out and struggling). At least the deer and the turkeys and the grouse were walking/flying free one minute and dead the next. Not struggling to walk and breathe in a dark, crowded, disease-ridden chicken house.

[aikoaiko]

55. Because I don't like to eat living animals (they squirm) I like that they be killed first.

;)

[Papagoose]

58. I am a reluctant meat-eater

I am a Type 2 Diabetic with extreme Insulin Resistance. The smallest amount of carbohydrates cause my blood sugar to spike rapidly, so I have to be very careful about eating fruits and vegetables. Even eating one apple requires me to compensate by taking a large dose of insulin. I hate the fact that I eat meat, but the fact is that it would be unreasonably difficult for me to be a vegan or vegetarian. I'm not saying it's impossible, there are many diabetics who don't eat meat, but it's in my doctors' and dietician's opinion that at this phase of my life it's not a smart choice.

I deal with my feelings of guilt by trying my best to buy the most ethically produced meat products and eggs that I can afford and I shop from local farms when possible.

[wicket]

62. I grew up on a farm as well

Got no problem with it, and will probably go hunting again this year.

[Tim01]

80. Good luck.

I'll probably go after some things I haven't ever tried before. Turkeys for one. And maybe geese. In addition to the usual squirrel and deer.

[wicket]

90. Thanks - you too!

For ur Thanksgiving dinner a few years ago we had a wild turkey that my dad had got that morning, sooooooooo good

[redqueen]

69. My ex's fundie moron neighbors grew up in the country...

but they still harassed a new neighbor (one o them furriners) for not cutting the grass.

They also think that the flu vaccine has secret computer chips in it, and that the government is going to activate the virus in conservatives in places like Texas and Florida.

Anecdotes may be interesting, but they don't mean much.

[Winterblues]

70. Are spiders animals

I do not really like spiders..:-(

[BlooInBloo]

76. They don't have mannerisms similar to actual people, so the faux-animals right people don't care.

[Ignis]

77. Actually, we call them "wall kittens."

Please don't kill the wall kittens! ;)

[BlooInBloo]

78. hahahahaa!

[Ignis]

79. I'm too lazy to edit, but ...

Perhaps "web kittens" would be even better. :)

[Raine]

81. I'm a vegetarian

that probably says it all on where I stand.

edit: changed a word

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. I grew up in a city

but they made an effort to make sure we were exposed to where our food came from, with field trips.

I worked in a kibbutz for six months. and folks... if you knew what happens in a factory farm, I am guessing most would not even have eggs. I am having eggs for dinner, so THERE.

I also was involved in Search Rescue, which involved some tracking... of humans... and in the tracking we sometimes found the results of the local snake having lunch. or the local coyote going after eggs or chicks...

And you know what? I fully agree with you. I wish my nephews were exposed to farms, and chiefly what happens at a farm, and that yes indeed daisy ends up in the stew every so often.

Hell, even how we treat our pets...

Dogs used to eat scraps for 10K years... and parrots, well mine don't consume seeds... they are closer to what their species consume in the wild, insofar as they eat veggies, grains, fruits, and yes meat... ok the eggo waffles, I guess them vines in the jungle are electrical cords...(I could not start the day without giving them their waffles, I do stupid human tricks) but the point is that even the way we feed our pets is not exactly what they ate for a long time, but just like our food, highly processed junk.

Hell, if I had a dog, oh the heresy. Iam's? You kid me right? Food scraps... the last dog I shared my life with ate food scraps for all his life and lived to the young age of 15 so there.

Oh and enjoy the squirrel stew... rattler is also fine food... Just don't ask me to go hunt the damn rattler. No, not squeamish about killing it... or gutting it... damn sharp fangs

:-)

Oh and as a hunter, you are the kind that eats what you kill, the more power to you. My problem are the trophy ones.

[Ignis]

88. "My problem are the trophy ones." -- I think that's most of us here.

At least, I'd hope so. :shrug:

[RebelOne]

92. I'm a vegetarian and do not believe in killing any animals.

The only way I could kill an animal would be in a life-threatening situation, such as the animal attacking me.

[flvegan]

93. I don't think we should kill animals.

Considering you're discussing food, the killing of animals (at least in this country) is unneeded (short of someone in complete desperation does so or under a doctor's orders/medical need). It's done so because of ego and selfishness. I'm not wagging my finger at anyone, just stating a fact. It tastes good. That's a point driven home by a number of folks here any time any animal rights (or God forbid, PETA) thread is tossed out there.