ACORN --> The ONE question: "Which side are you on?" Many replies, sadly,

[ConsAreLiars]

sided with the mega-powerful destroyers and exploiters who turn a few naifs who fell victim to a scam into into PROOF that the whole organization is full of wicked MONSTERS and thus should be exterminated.

A far better argument could be made for de-funding every single for-profit corporation that gets tax money and rips off people, plus the whole senate and congress and executive branch and judiciary, based on the number and severity of the offenses committed by those within those groups.

But no, according to some, this is really OUTRAGEOUS, a group working to help the most disadvantaged must be punished because a few within their ranks got fooled into looking foolish. But insurance companies routinely murder their clients, and never get de-funded. Corporations poison the planet, and bankers steal from everyone they can sign and usury is OK, and Congress is full of those whose offenses are far, far more severe, not only in terms of particular legalities or morality, but almost universally in terms of selling their votes, and, strangely, Congress never calls for de-funding themselves. The military and CIA and the rest commit mass murder around the planet.

And so, and so on, and so on....

But ACORN gets de-funded and some fools cheer.

Which side are they on?

Not yours, not mine, not even their own. Fools, who blindly buy into Corporate PR and are as easily duped as the Fauxed-up morons who are being hate-fed into the Brown Shirt brigades that these same institutions are organizing. The street thugs attack those who work for the common good, and while the humans-for-the-common-good groups get kicked and beaten into a pulp by those thugs, the thugs receive additional help of the enablers who do not merely remain silent, but approve and applaud. Just as guilty.

[The Magistrate]

1. There Certainly Have Been, Sir, Some People Leaping Into This With Unseemly Haste....

[ConsAreLiars]

3. "Easily led," unfortunately, descibes most of us, at least for some part of

our lives. No blame, just yelling "FIRE!" for those who might listen.

As an aside, I checked the words in your sig to be sure it was the law-must-serve-power Confucius (aka John Yoo) and it was, but I'm glad to acknowledge the other side of Confucius, that power must be just (not John Yoo).

As you might have noticed, I prefer the poor Buddhist wander-the-world-and-learn over the serve-the-emperor side of things, but we can agree that endorsing this me-too trashing of ACORN by some on DU shows a bit of gullibility.

Willing suspension of disbelief is really helpful when entering a good movie or book, but willing suspension of belief is far more important when getting "information" that is passed through the corporate media.

[The Magistrate]

27. Regarding Your Aside, Sir

My attraction to a Confucian view stems mainly from the doctrine that virtue above produces virtue below, and that crime at the top produces crime below. This seems to me to be clearly evident in all societies through recorded history: the root of all difficulty for all people is grasping behavior by those at the summit of society. The resolve to 'call a spade a spade', as the 'rectification of names' could be fairly summed up in plain English, is essential towards doing anything about this. A further element is that the Confucian classics are in fact not so much a body of philosophy as a practical descriptive political text, laying bare, for better or worse, how things actually work in a starkly pyramidal society. Very little has changed down the millennia in this regard....

[ConsAreLiars]

39. Advising the Top Dog to be just or virtuous is, of course,

laudable. Expecting a just and humane society to come about because Top Dog makes it happen is utopianism. To my knowledge, only one small nation has come close to that kind of model, and it is Buddhist. Other than that I've seen movement toward greater justice achieved only when the underdogs work together for the common good.

[The Magistrate]

40. What You Close On, Sir

Is pretty much what happened when a new dynasty arose. These were always revolutionary periods, and the new ruler generally had done what you look for. Most began with re-distribution of land, a variant of 'equal fields' systems, and regularizatioo of taxation, buffered, of course, by confiscation of the wealth of the previous established order. Matters, of course, decayed from such beginnings.

The position is not one of 'advising the top dog to be just and virtuous', but rather of observing that things go better for all when this is the case, and that they go ill in proportion to the degree that it is not the case.

Personally, in contemporary political terms, I am a Socialist, though I am aware there are limits on the degree to which progress can be made towards this in our political system at present.

[ConsAreLiars]

43. I see how you mean your sig more clearly now.

Thank you. That warning is one that needs to be shouted loudly and often.

When THEY do not hear it, as always, and when the rulers can no longer rule in the old way, even by becoming more oppressive, the conditions are created for revolution/overturning. And, as you say, the new groups that have taken Top Dog position have, so far, failed to prove themselves virtuous for very long. Less evil, certainly, for much longer, and even the lesser evil needs to be supported when subjecting the people to the greater evil is the alternative, but they regularly get beaten/bribed onto the other path/way (a Zen reference).

Is another world possible? I think it must be if humans are to survive, and there are many countries in which this dream, which seems so far away when looking from the US, is possible. I've always pushed that direction, however ineffectively, as, I am sure, have you.

[The Magistrate]

45. Much Appreciated, Sir

It is always a pleasure to reach a mutual understanding.

[Luminous Animal]

2. I'm on the side of the rich and powerful because someday I might win the lottery

and I want to be invited to their reindeer games.

[Turborama]

4. Their penguine races seem fun, too

On a serious note. (This is directed mainly at the OP) I don't know if you've seen them yet, but these two stories I posted in LBN resulted in some interesting debates about the legal implications regarding the nefarious behaviour of Breitbart and his cronies.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4064316

&

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4054553

K&R

[ConsAreLiars]

37. Thanks for those links.

The discussions were both instructive and revealing.

[EFerrari]

5. I think most people only know ACORN from the RW smears.

That's all they've heard, the sum of their contact.

I got to know a little bit when a Cal prof who worked with me on producing a MoveOn event got frustrated with MoveOn in 2004 and went to work with ACORN registering voters. And once you catch onto the pattern of RW smears on ACORN, it's pretty hard to miss the next one.

[Stinky The Clown]

6. ACORN is a surrogate for Obama

Follow the jumpers-on

[Proud Liberal Dem]

7. Here's my $0.02 on this whole sorry episode

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6577972&mesg_id=6578349

[redqueen]

8. K&R

[paulsby]

9. "mega-powerfuk destroyers and exploiters"

let's face facts here. this sting was done by a couple of (former) nobodies. it wasn't 60 minutes or beck, or any "mega-powerful" influence. it was a couple of kids.

that's actually very heartening to me. it shows the power of citizen journalism and investigation. that power should not rest solely with large corporations, like most news agencies. in the age of technology we are in, citizens are empowered with means to investigate and disseminate information, like never before.

[ConsAreLiars]

11. The attacks began long before these two tools,

who you call citizen journalists and whose actions you call heartening, got their pranks massively publicized by one of the most powerful pro-corporatist propaganda organizations in this country.

It IS a question of choosing sides, as your praise of that side in a very long and loud smear campaign illustrates. Choosing intelligently first requires knowing the nature, objectives, and loyalties of the players.

[paulsby]

22. and if two left wing nobodies

did a similar sting to operation rescue or any # of other groups that the right holds dear, the same mega corps would ALSO jump in and promote it.

and people here would be applauding them. the reason that they make people angry is not what they did, it's WHO they dared to do it TOO. that's just silly partisanship

the AGENTS were still a couple of nobodies with a case theory, and the incentive to go out and actually investigate

that IS heartening. it's just that so many don't like the RESULT of their investigation and the organization targeted.

i am talking about what they did from a sense of it's a powerful example of how a citizen can be a journalist and investigator and root out mal/misfeasance, in a juggernaut.

i applaud what, for example, woodward and bernstein did.

but i also like to see "the common man" so to speak engage as well in investigation.

[ConsAreLiars]

46. What nonsense.

The Reich-wingers are, wittingly for the high paid few, and unwittingly for those the deceive and mislead, tools. The mega-corps would be no more inclined to show such an "expose" than you would be likely to cut off an arm. There have been hundreds of very professional, honest and informative documentaries produced about everything from Chevron's poisoning of the Amazon to US election fraud to mountain top mining to Katrina victims to Fast Food Poisoning to poisoning our water to everything else.

Those honest and accurate exposes of real crimes with millions of real victims never get .01% of the publicity as this minor event, and only fools, tools and diehard ideologues would fail to acknowledge that simple fact.

[EFerrari]

12. When we find out who organized this, I think you will be disappointed. n/t

[alcibiades_mystery]

38. paulsby's a conservative

Why would he be disappointed?

[redqueen]

16. You're confusing facts with spin. (nt)

[paulsby]

23. you're confusing partisanship and religious adherence with analysis nt

[redqueen]

26. "citizen journalism" means heavily edited tapes and RW backers?

:rofl:

Tell me... are you one of those who rags on Michael Moore for his "propoganda" (sic)?

:rofl:

[paulsby]

28. this clearly was citizen journalism

and if you would research vs. kneejerking, you would find that i have been effusive in praise for michael moore as a brilliant filmmaker, documentarian and "alternative" voice.

so, EPIC FAIL

as usual facts matter not to you.

[redqueen]

29. LOL... oh how shamelessly lame!

I see you're still studiously avoiding this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6576332

Geeeee, I wonder why! :rofl:

[paulsby]

31. i'm not studiously avoiding anything

i have stated clearly my position several times, and pointed people to it. the same ignorati who claim they don't know what i am talking about

in brief, stating that congress defunded acorn (and if they pass a bill saying ACORN cannot receive funds iow a blanket denial, then they are arguably running afoul of the constitution due to bill of attainder issues fwiw), for merely giving "stupid advice" is a grossly distorted and dishonest assessment of the case facts.

certain people simply will not admit that, because unsound premises are perfectly acceptable when the "metanarrative" is there

[redqueen]

32. You just called this RW-backed, heavily edited (i.e. dishonest) BS a good example of

"citizen journalism".

Blather on all you want... that's fuckin hilarious!

[paulsby]

33. it is

and if the same citizen journalists had used the exact same tactics to expose scummery at operation rescue etc. you would be applauding them.

it's the fact that their target is sympathetic, and they are not, that taints yer analysis

hth

[redqueen]

34. LOL... no I wouldn't. Do you fancy yourself a psychic, then?

Christ... you really are a piece of work.

[Turborama]

41. Re: them being RW-backed

As posted in http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x371436">this thread...

suffragette has http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4054553&mesg_id=4058600">posted some background info on James O'Keefe's links to the "The Leadership Institute", where Rove is also a past student.

This isn't http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4054553&mesg_id=4054687">the 1st RW "sting" O'Keefe has been involved in.

Details of a fellow attendee of "The Leadership Institute" who he conducted a similar sting with, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4054553&mesg_id=4054687">here.

Hannah Giles is the Daughter of http://www.google.com/search?q=Doug+Giles&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8">Doug Giles, wingnut talk radio host and townhall.com writer.

Good report on this, here: http://dailydoubt.blogspot.com/2009/09/apple-didnt-fall-far-from-tree.html">The apple didn't fall far from the tree

[The Magistrate]

42. Indeed, Sir: These Are a Prime Pair Of Pissants

[redqueen]

48. Exactly. Thank you for posting those links. (nt)

[Turborama]

52. You're welcome

This whole thing needs to be unravelled to a point where we can find out exactly where the funding is actually coming from.

[fascisthunter]

51. .

[sabrina 1]

44. And what did these 'citizen journalists' uncover?

What was their motive?

[TxRider]

10. I am on the side of transparency

Let the light shine on it...

[anigbrowl]

13. Me too. A well-run organization prepares for such challenges...

as ACORN now appears to be doing. I have no doubt that they will emerge stronger and better for conducting a housecleaning, and have no wish to see them emulate the RW and make like a tortoise.

[backwoodsbob]

25. that was what I was going to point out

ACORN will be fine and in the long run this may be a good thing.

They seem to have gotten too big too fast and now they can use this to look things over top to bottom and make themselves a better managed organization.

They won't go away..this will only serve to make them better in the long run

[redqueen]

17. Me too... let's see all the tapes. Unedtied.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6576332&mesg_id=6576332

[woo me with science]

19. Thank you.

I am disgusted by those who would look at right and wrong, ethical and unethical, and see a political "side."

Sheesh.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

20. "If You're Not Guilty You Have Nothing To Hide"

Is the kind of excuse RWers used to justify warrantless wiretaps violations of privacy, indefinite detentions and illegal search and seizure.

Presumption of innocence is so-o-o-o-o 1789!

[TxRider]

35. Presumption of innoncence is an individual right

Not the right of corporation even a non profit one IMO.

Take taxpayer monies, transparently show how they are used.

That's the pathway for Acorn to transform itself and come back stronger.

[The Magistrate]

36. Nonesense, Sir: This Is One Right In Court Corporations Should Share With Citizens

Under law a corporation is an individual.

[TheKentuckian]

14. I'm on ACORN's side unless and until it is demonstrated that they have

significant outcome issues.

This like the registration fraud stuff from the fall is all a bunch of nonsense until they prove that ACORN is actually committing fraud. Systems are designed to filter out the muck and so far I have never seen any evidence that this organization isn't catching the garbage before people are voting or getting actual assistance.

[BlooInBloo]

15. It shows what side many DUers and many Democrats are really on.

[redqueen]

18. The gullible side?

The stupid side?

The other side?

Could be any of the three, really.

[BlooInBloo]

21. Heh indeedy.

[masuki bance]

47. Are you ever going to watch the videos? Or are you content with just how you feel

about the whole thing based on scoreboard totals for the R's vs the D's?

The gullible and stupid descriptions you talk about fit the employees that have been fired so far. Along with horrific, disgusting and vomit inducing. Are you just afraid of what you will see, that it may shake your smug, satisfied feeling of being in the right?

[redqueen]

49. I'll wait for the UNEDITED videos, thanks. (nt)

[JVS]

30. The republican side

[Time for change]

24. Great points

Of course a major problem is the power of our corporate news media. Too many people think that just because something is blasted over the news time and again, it must be legitimate.

[underpants]

50. ACORN is great at their core mission but they don't do control or PR well

and this is almost entirely a PR and internal control thing but that just might be their management model

I side with ACORN

[mdmc]

53. ..