Strippers’ lawsuit challenges independent contractor status

[graywarrior]

By Jonathan Saltzman
Globe Staff / September 18, 2009


When Noel Van Wagner began working as a stripper in New England clubs about 15 years ago, she typically got a modest wage or no salary at all. But she said she made so much in tips - $300 to $800 per shift - that she didn’t care and didn’t even mind paying club owners $10 or $20 for the right to perform each night.

Like other forms of entertainment, however, strip clubs have lost customers because of the bad economy, and Van Wagner said the place where she works, Ten’s Show Club in Salisbury, has responded by wringing as much money as it can out of each dancer. The club, she says, pays no salary, charges each stripper $40 to $60 per shift to perform, and imposes other fees for lateness or failing to participate in every dance routine - all at a time when tips have plunged.

Yesterday, she and another dancer at the club, along with one who left in March, sued the business in Essex Superior Court for allegedly misclassifying them as “independent contractors,’’ depriving them of wages and tips. The strippers were emboldened by a recent state court ruling that about 70 strippers who worked at King Arthur’s Lounge in Chelsea were entitled to recover thousands of dollars in damages in a class-action lawsuit that made similar allegations. That complaint was believed to be the first of its kind in Massachusetts.

“I expect fair treatment in the work place, and I expect club owners to obey the law and conduct their business according to the law,’’ said Van Wagner. “None of us wants to sue, but we feel as though it’s the only way to effect change.’’

An English major at Framingham State College who lives in Boxborough and gives her age as “thirty-something,’’ Van Wagner said her husband, an engineer, showed her a newspaper article about the earlier suit. It prompted her to call one of the plaintiffs’ lawyers from that case.

The lawyer, Tod A. Cochran, of Boston, said he believes strip clubs in Massachusetts routinely violate state labor law by misclassifying dancers as independent contractors to avoid paying miniumum wage, overtime, Social Security, workers’ compensation, and other benefits. Customers, he said, should be “outraged that the club isn’t sharing any of its profits with the workers and is exploiting by not only not paying them but by charging them a fee.’’

Mark Filtranti, who owns the night club in the beach town near New Hampshire, was out of state yesterday and could not be reached for comment, according to a man who answered the phone at the club.

The suit follows a July 30 ruling by Suffolk Superior Court Judge Frances A. McIntyre that King Arthur’s was liable for misclassifying strippers and that the plaintiffs could proceed to trial to determine the damages they should recover.

The club had argued that selling alcohol was its main business, not putting on strip shows, and that performers were independent contractors who provided extra entertainment akin to televisions and pool tables at a sports bar. McIntyre scoffed at that in her ruling, saying, “The dancing is an integral part of King Arthur’s business.’’

Robert R. Berluti, a Boston lawyer for King Arthur’s, said the ruling reflected the fact that Massachusetts is “an outlier’’ in the country, with one of the strictest laws governing the classification of workers as independent contractors.

Van Wagner said she has worked at the club off and on for about 15 years. The other two plaintiffs named in the suit are Bonnie Griffin, of Merrimack, N.H., who has danced at the club since 2002, and Katherine Sandoval, of Kennebunkport, Maine, who worked there from 2006 to early this year.

The suit says they are employees, not contractors, of Ten’s Show Club because management controls most aspects of their jobs, including their wardrobes, the music they dance to, and their work schedules. The women are not allowed to work at competing clubs.

Van Wagner said Ten’s Show Club never paid her a salary, but that was not a problem when management charged her $10 to perform each shift. But with the fee as much as $60 on some nights and management deducting from their tips if they are late or miss a dance routine, she said, strippers sometimes barely earn enough to make it worth it.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/09/18/strippers_lawsuit_challenges_independent_contractor_status/

[bluestateguy]

1. They should be entitled to at least hourly minimum wage

if they do not make that much in a day.

[aquart]

2. Like waiters.

[Lerkfish]

3. whoa...they have to PAY for the privelege of stripping?

something is messed up about that.

[graywarrior]

4. No kidding.

I never knew that. It's way wrong on so many levels. Paying to humiliate and degrade yourself.

[redqueen]

5. When they're earning $300 to $800 per shift ... it doesn't seem so messed up. (nt)

[Lerkfish]

9. no, its still messed up. That means the club has no employee overhead, but is reaping

huge profits in liquor sales that they would never make without the dancers.
Would you think it was ok for local band to pay to play at a restaurant, when the restaurant benefits from their gig by more business?
Think about it, its messed up.

What if a dancer is injured, or worse, attacked? is there insurance?
I doubt it.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

18. The club's paying for the DJ, bouncers, dressing rooms, advertising, and...

probably greasing a few palms to stay open.

[Lerkfish]

19. so is a nightclub with music

does the band have to pay to play?

[TorchTheWitch]

39. we have manditory DJ/housemom/security fees as well

I know of no club anywhere in the US where the dancers don't also pay at least the DJ and housemom.

[eeyore]

52. LA is built on pay to play for bands...

Sucks, but it's true. I refuse, but it happens all over the city every damn night. You want to play The Whiskey? They sell you, the band, tickets for you to do with as you please. That way they have zero risk involved. If you want to give them away for free that's your business. Total bullshit.

[readmoreoften]

33. She said she WAS making $300 per shift before the economy tanked.

And by the way (most dancers make $300 a shift regularly and $800 a shift two or three times a year during Xmas, etc.) I've worked in clubs where girls walked out OWING money.

[redqueen]

46. That's why I put the qualifier "while they're earning..." in there. (nt)

[TorchTheWitch]

38. most of us are no longer making anywhere near that anymore

and the ones that are on a regular basis are the hookers.

Considering that being groped ALL over by a customer in order to earn $10 of a $20 lap dance, $300-$800 per shift is CHUMP change. These days, a respectful customer is one that doesn't try to hold you down so he can jam his fingers up your pink part, doesn't whip out his wang and doesn't expect to be able to do it for free while calling you stupid and/or a bitch/whore.

[redqueen]

48. Yes, now that the economy has tanked that's not the case anymore.

After reading stuff like that in the article, about how great the money is (when times are good)... it's interesting to see the kind of crap you have to put up with as you described in your post... because it may seem like a lot of money, but IMO it's really not, when you take that stuff into consideration.

[TorchTheWitch]

53. this isn't recent

The tanking really started after 9/11. It's only been the high end clubs where dancers could routinely make over $300 per shift on a regular basis, and in most areas that already included full grinding lapdances with groping since 9/11. Unfortunately, I got into this business right after 9/11 when the business was already in major decline.

It's only been since this more recent recession that the norm is damn near unbareable. Clubs normally have more dancers than they have customers. Even the high end clubs have a very close ratio at the best of times. Some high end clubs are absolutely dead... 50 dancers and 10 customers is normal during non-weekendnight hours. Those clubs are only floating on what their reaming the dancers out of in high fees and splits and high drink prices, door charges and manditory valet parking for the customers. Even before this recession it is normal for a high end club to open and close or sell in mere months.

[lildreamer316]

65. THIS is SO TRUE.

I just got back in to regular dancing..I am not making a damned thing. It's ridiculous.

[TorchTheWitch]

68. it is SHIT SHIT SHIT

I swear if I can't get out of this slimey club I've been working in for the past few months and find somewhere a LOT better I'm going to start packing heat in my thong... either to beat away the pervs or mug any customer with more than $5 in their wallet! LOL!

[lildreamer316]

72. I have just the thing:

http://www.trashy.com/LA550-Mafia-Shoes.14269-product.htm
:)

[TorchTheWitch]

73. If they have poisoned tips I'm sold

Lately the "if you don't knock that shit off I'm going to ram this 6 inch spike heel through your ear" line hasn't been working well enough.

Lord, save me from this ghastly hell hole!

Blah.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

78. ever consider a different line of work?

[TorchTheWitch]

92. hell no, been there done that

Despite all the drawbacks even though times are crap, it's STILL much better money hour for hour of work than I was ever able to make after over 10 years as a paralegal. If I don't like a club I can vote with my feet and work in another. I can work anywhere in the US, parts of Canada, Japan, UK, France... damm near anywhere. I normally only actually put in about 20 hours per week - 4 to 5 hour shifts, 4 nights a week. I can work daytime or nighttime, generally come and go as I please depending on the area I work in, I can literally slug a customer and not get fired or reprimanded depending on what that customer did (and the clubs almost always side with the dancers over the customers), I can ignore the customers I don't want to deal with, and there is no definite limit to how much I can make depending on how far I'm willing to push the envelope.

I'm already really old for this job and I'm more surprised I'm still able to do it and do generally better than most. I already know I have a limited number of years left to do this before my age alone causes my income to tank. Once I hang up the stilts I'll probably bartend, DJ or maybe housemom.

[girl gone mad]

95. It was that way back when I was..

waitressing and bartending. Dancers getting their nipples bit, drunk guys starting fist fights with them and calling them stupid cunts, stalkers, men who thought all the girls were whores on the side. And these were the respectable clubs. I hate to think what the shitholes were like.

BTW, girls, I made more money behind the bar most nights then the dancers on stage did and I didn't have to disrobe or act like I was dying to fuck every geezer with a $20. Something to think about.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

7. Well, the club's paying for a lot of stuff.

I've heard of this before and it always struck me like beauticians renting a chair in a salon.

[redqueen]

8. Exactly. (nt)

[Lerkfish]

12. no, the dancers are a "draw". without the dancers, no one would buy their overpriced drinks

that's different from getting a haircut.

[JVS]

15. Without the strippers, the bar lowers the drink prices and becomes a regular bar.

Without the bar the strippers are either at home or facing public nudity charges.

[Lerkfish]

17. a bar that wouldn't survive.

generally, these places are so run down the only way they avoid fines for fire hazards is bribes, and the bribes are provided by the dancers.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

20. Without the strippers, I'm sitting in a bar with a stupid look on my face for no good reason. nt

[TorchTheWitch]

93. hell most of the custys look like that even with us there

One night last week every customer in the club looked like they were at a funeral all night. After one of my sets I went up to chat up one of the guys and said "sooo, which one of these dudes do you think is the dearly departed?" He looked confused at first then looked around at all the zombie faces and busted up laughing... and tipped me a $20.
:evilgrin:

[readmoreoften]

34. I love the smell of anti-labor Democrats in the afternoon.

They pay for the one-time construction of a stage and some lights. Without dancers, it's just another shitty bar that needed to buy expensive flat screens and other fru-fru to keep customers coming.

What about publishing companies? Maybe all editors should be freelance contractors who pay a fee to the corporate owners.
How about bill collectors? They could be paid piecemeal.
Other blue collar companies are already in the game: carpet cleaners getting paid $4 a carpet and using their own vehicles.

This independent contractor crap is a major part of the ruination of this country.

[JVS]

37. I've worked as a bill collector. It was on commission.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

56. I'm quite pro-labor and pro-union, friend. Pro-stripper, too.

And if you read my post again, I think you'll see that I'm not defending strippers as independent contractors, only saying that, given the system as it is, the clubs do in fact have legitimate overhead.

[blogslut]

58. Then they should be able to charge the customers directly for their services

Minus the rental. That's how it works for hairdressers. If the dancers were true contract workers then they should be able to set their own hours, wear their own chosen costumes and charge their patrons whatever price they decide. They would get to keep all the money minus the rental fee. That is, if they were true contract employees like hairdressers.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

60. I just go to the cheap chains so you may be right.

I'm surprised beauticians renting space have that level of control over their hours and pricing.

[blogslut]

69. Well, it's been a while

But yes. I had that sort of control when I rented a booth. I payed a rental fee and for that I was allowed a chair/station and to use the shop sinks & hairdryers as well as their towels. I was responsible for all my supplies, garnering my own clients as well as the fact that I had to pay my own employment taxes. I was an independent contractor - no different than any business owner that leases space from a property owner.

[lildreamer316]

83. Sometimes we do.

Again, it depends on the club. Where I am at the moment; I get the money for each dance and hold onto that in my garter. If we go to the higher-end dances; i.e. the couch room; we approach a kiosk hosted by a floorman and pay him $10 of the $30 I get for the dance I'm about to do. The rest goes in my garter. At the end of the night; I pay out my housefees and tipouts to housemom; dj; and floormen.

[blogslut]

85. That sounds reasonable

The situation described in the OP does not.


I understand your determination to keep your independent contractor status. What would you suggest as an alternative remedy for the ladies mentioned in the OP?

[lildreamer316]

94. I have a different take on the whole situation..

and my post downthread elucidates some of my positions on this issue.

I see this as a 'big picture' problem. The owners are trying to put a band-aid on a gushing; mortal life-wound in the industry. The basic structure of the business has to change for things to become better for us as ICs. When club owners get a fucking grip and attempt to understand that the game has changed - that new rules apply - and that attempting to force profits in the short term (raping the girls for tipout money) will not work and will result in cases like this; maybe they'll get a clue.

See, the trend lately (that most club owners don't seem to understand) is that as liberal as we are becoming as a country ; we are conservative as all get-out in our local areas. There are several states and local cities that have come down full-force on the industry in their jurisdictions to the point of almost running these clubs out of business..which, of course; is the intent all along. This is a trend that is only growing; not receeding..and the industry leaders are not recognizing it for the very real threat that it has become. BUT, they share in the responsibility of bringing this down upon themselves by running clubs that have become semi-clothed sex dens; instead of the erotic entertainment that it was meant to be.

What we have here is an over-abundance of greed..and in a probably not-very-popular opinion; I'm going to lump the ladies in the OP into that 'greed' category.
ANyone who's been in this biz for any length of time understands how it works. We know the club is making out exorbitantly. We KNOW the playing field isn't fair to the general observer. But the unintended consequences of classifying us as employees - and what that would entail from the clubs - would in essence hamstring and eventually seriously harm the very business that we so enjoy working in. (Yes, Virginia, there are people that love doing this for a living; and some of us are even sane!).


I understand the ladies in the suit wanting what they perceive as fair..and I even support them inasmuch as I think maybe this kind of suit will serve as part of the wake-up call that the lions of this industry so desperately need. But the precedent that it would set, if taken and run with by others across the country; is ultimately damaging to the freedom and yes, even the 'mystique' that this profession can engender - IF run correctly. And that is something I am really loathe to risk. I'm thirty-something also.

I hope these greedy fuckers (the owners) get their comeuppance as much as the girl next to me striding down the stage in her six-inch stilettos. But the consequences could be bad..very bad. To me, it's the same as the smoking argument; except with less harm to 'innocent by-standers'...we don't need more nanny-stating; we need less. These boys running the industry are, as we speak, running up against the concrete wall of reality (just like the rest of the business world): you get what you pay for; and you can't get something for nothing.

But on the flip side...if the example lady in question is thirty-something; that means she has probably danced for awhile..and should understand what the undercurrents of the industry are. I hope that her goal here is to force the owners to an understanding of the consequences of their greed and short-sightedness; not to set a precedent for all entertainers across the country. I am scared that she,and the others in the suit; do not understand how important this could be.

[TorchTheWitch]

96. my guess is that she's only doing this now because she is done with the biz

At her age I'm also assuming she's been in the biz long enough to know how things work including the consequences of what she's doing. Whether she wins or loses the lawsuit she'll be canned and blackballed along with all the other dancers that joined the suit.

I honestly don't think that even if the case is won (and there's a very good chance it will be) it will change anything. This is hardly the first time such a suit has been filed and the result is always the same... over all nothing will change. Though the club may lose and have to pay all these dancers they'll be canned and blackballed, the club will either close or go back to business as usual.

Years ago when many Philly dancers tried to unionize they were all canned and blackballed and all the other dancers saw the result of what fighting the system got you. Those dancers were replaced in 5 minutes and it was back to business as usual. Only the dumbest of club owners doesn't work the system to their advantage by buying off law enforcement and judges. Since the majority of clubs are corporate owned (which got us into this mess in the first place!) they have a ton of money to pool together even with other corp clubs that get back to business as usual.

[JVS]

13. Cab drivers generally pay for the use of a car.

For stripping, I can see it. The club owner provides a stage, an audience, liquor sales to get the audience in a spendy mood, security (a big deal for stripping), music, and rooms for lapdances which earn higher tips. If the strippers had to strip in their own homes, they'd probably make a lot less money.

[Lerkfish]

16. what if they were a rock band?

should they play at a gig and not get paid, even though the owner provides a stage?

[JVS]

23. Bands don't go around the audience collecting tips. It's a different arrangement

The owner of the strip club is sharing his customers for a fee. The owner of the music club is not sharing his customers with the band, he's hiring the band and in turn taking the money from the customers.

[Lerkfish]

44. wow, you are really down on the dancers all through this thread, and against

labor laws, so I guess we're done discussing it.

btw: have you ever MET any of the club owners? its not like they're worthy of defending.

[Ron Green]

36. No, that's a jazz band.

They're the ones who don't get paid.

[eeyore]

54. That, in addition to pay to play, happens all over the country every night.

I can't tell you how many shows I've played without pay. You want to play the cool club in town? Unless you have a guaranteed draw that they can count on, you will not find many clubs willing to do more than give you some of the door - and they count the money. You might make $50 per band member on the night if you're lucky, but usually it's more like $50 for the whole band.

[Xithras]

Not really. The idea is that they're renting the space to do their own busines.

Traditional strip clubs make their money on the cover and at the bar. The strippers are just a draw to get the people in the door.

If the owner is doing it right, the ladies are essentially paying a fee for the right to use the stage, which they will use to make their own money. The stripper makes money from tips, and the bar makes money from beer sales. It's a win/win business arrangement.

The problem here is that these strippers were employees. Once the bar began imposing work rules and penalties on them, they came under the authority of the managagement and became employees. They will win their lawsuit because they should have been paid at least minimum wage at that point.

[anigbrowl]

63. Yeah. Hairdressers, nail salons etc. do the same thing - rent stations

All I know about strip clubs is from seeing them in movies, but I can well believe times are tough and people just go to watch instead of handing out big tips. I have nothing against independent contractor relationships (I work freelance myself) but sometimes they're just a legal figleaf to cover up an unfair working arrangement.

[TorchTheWitch]

42. I'm always surpised how many people don't know this

And it is really messed up.

[lildreamer316]

64. Yes, we do. LIST OF USUAL FEES:

1)House fee: This varies by club and area; as well as time that you arrive and are dressed and on the floor. Scores NY was notorious for $200-$300 house fees; some clubs in Vegas still charge this (a rash of this has been happening due to the extremely bad economy).

2)House mom tip: The house mom is the 'girl wrangler'; she may sign the girls in; provide hair, makeup; sewing services; snacks; coordinate with the DJ and the Managers about what girls are at the club when; takes the schedule; coordinates the selling of merchandise by the girls (happens usually hourly or half-hourly). Some clubs have more than one housemom. My usual tip here is either $5 or $10; but in bigger cities it is more. Yes, they usually get some sort of payment from the club as well; although it can be as little as $2.13 an hour.

3)DJ: (THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT)He/she usually also gets either a shift pay or hourly pay from the club; however there is one club I know of that considers their djs to be independent contractors as well and makes them pay over $100 a shift to work also. Most djs get between $25-$75 a shift; sometimes up to $150 in rare cases. One company I know pays their djs a waitress wage of $2.13. Industry standard for tipping your dj is usually 10% of what you have made that night. There is so much more to the whys and wherefores of why a dj gets this kind of tip I don't have time to get into right now. Suffice it to say that a good dj earns every penny; a bad dj most certainly does not deserve any of it. Trust me.

4)Floormen/Floor hosts/Bouncers: These, unfortunately,are the 'low men' on the totem pole. Most clubs require you to tip them between $3-$5 a piece; some clubs collect that from each girl and pool the money to tip the group of bouncers at the end of the night. There are clubs that have floormen/hosts that attend only certain rooms; and if those rooms are booked for any time at all they receive a percentage of the price charged to the customer for that room. They are also usually paid a small wage by the club.


We do not USUALLY have to tip waitresses; bartenders or managers; but some places do require that you do so. It is a disturbing trend that a lot of club owners; instead of paying their managers a decent living salary; are now requiring their girls to tip their managers on every shift as well as all those people listed above.

[truebrit71]

6. This thread is useless without lots and lots of pictures...

...:evilgrin: :hide:

[graywarrior]

11. Will you tip?

[grantcart]

14. If you go out in the rain take an umbrella

that's my tip

[graywarrior]

50. Oouu, that's a slap on the back of the head.

:rofl:

[rrneck]

10. They're employees.

The women are not allowed to work at competing clubs

If they were independent contractors they should be able to go where the tips are best. If you have to show up at a certain place at a certain time and do certain things you are an employee. They should at least get a good wage and health care.

[tritsofme]

21. How is this different from an independent contractor signing a non-compete agreement? nt

[rrneck]

24. Hey, good question.

I hadn't thought of that. Just offhand I would say that if there were a non compete agreement involved the potential for greater renumeration would be higher. I would think, although I don't know, there would be perks to go along with the increased contractural obligations.

Since we are talking about strip clubs here I sort of doubt the the level of professionalism is very high under most circumstances especially since they are suing the owners for more money.

But you have a good point.

[pitohui]

28. the person doesn't have a good point, see my post below

a non compete agreement involves a large, additional payment to the independent contractor

these girls weren't receiving a large, additional payment to lock up their ability to earn income, they were themselves paying kickbacks to be allowed to work at all

[rrneck]

32. That's what I was thinking.

If there's a contractural obligation, there oughta be more money.

[pitohui]

26. what independent contractor signs a noncompete agreement? get a better lawyer

the minute i as an independent contractor can't accept the best paying offer and move around to best jobs, but instead i have to work for one dude and even pay the dude kickbacks to work there and i'm fined if i'm late on the job or he doesn't like my outfit...BY FEDERAL LAW i am not an independent contractor, i'm an employee -- independent contractors are INDEPENDENT, they don't give up their right to negotiate the best deal or they might as well give up on making a decent living at the outset

there should be more than a lawsuit, they should try to get the IRS involved because they could be out many many years of contributions to their social security because of this type of cheating

and YES it is illegal to declare an employee an independent contractor to get out of making social security contributions, the owners need to pay up big time and go to prison if the dollar amount of the cheating exceeds a certain amount

it shouldn't have to be up to one state to this, this is a federal requirement

i would love to know how the IRS picks and chooses when to enforce, i suppose the owners are giving kickbacks to local irs/fbi agents

at least one woman described in this article had worked in the club 15 years, that is not a temp, that is not an independent contractor, that's an EMPLOYEE, she's owed 15 years of matching social security requirements, let alone repayment of all the illegal kickbacks she's had to pay

[rrneck]

35. I wonder if the (conservative) powers that be

let 'em slide to make an inhospitable workplace to suppress the business since they probably figure stripping is so immoral (while taking the odd bribe here and there at the same time)?

[Ikonoklast]

51. OK, then the girls won't open a strip club.

A truly independent contractor can work wherever they want to, once they walk out your front door they can go right next door and work. After they are paid for their services in your establishment, they are free agents.

As an independent contractor myself, unless you are going to pay me for exclusivity, and sign a contract spelling out the terms and renumeration, my services are for hire to the highest bidder.

I can and will work for the competition, and do so on a regular basis.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

22. That's not how all clubs work.

A lot of strippers do work different clubs at different times.

[rrneck]

25. I'm sure they do. I just pulled that quote from the article. nt

[readmoreoften]

31. Not so much anymore. Most clubs want house girls. And if I work at Starbucks and

Blockbuster am I not an employee because each place doesn't give enough hours?

[Vidar]

29. Very good point.

[TorchTheWitch]

45. depends on the club

Most of the high end club don't allow you to work at any other club at least in the same area. Some don't care if you do or not, some only care if it's a certain club (like the one across the street). Not that way pay any attention to that BS.

[imdjh]

90. Some hair dressers rent a chair. I don't know if they can work in other salons.

Others work on a split.

[BlooInBloo]

27. Heh. Sounds like the stripper version of the Microsoft Permatemp lawsuit.

[readmoreoften]

30. Good for her. It's a shitty labor practice and it pervaded the business in the 90s.

The idea that a dancer is a contractor is ridiculous. If dancers were contractors, they'd be able to dance whenever they wanted, skip mandatory rotation to make more money with their clients, leave the club to go to their car or pick up their kid (you're not allowed to leave at most clubs) and wear any goddamn thing they wanted (including drapes and flip flops). Aftter all-- it's THEIR MONEY right?

I remember when it all changed. When I started dancing in the mid-90s I was getting $12 an hour plus tips with zero contact. Then the industry shifted and it became champagne courts lap dances, and exorbitant shift fees. I can't imagine how bad it is now.

[seabeyond]

43. that isnt true

i dont know about stripper business, but contractors do not have that freedom you talk about. my hubby in computer business hired people for corps as contractor. they were under his company, had to file and pay taxes on own and had to follow the company rules in the corp they were sent to.

dress codes, hours, all the same as corps employee

[TorchTheWitch]

57. your hubby may have been ripped off

The IRS decides who is an IC and who is not. Generally speaking, an IC is contracted to do a specific job for a specific time period. They use their own equipment/supplies, hire/fire their own staff, work the hours they want, dress how they want, etc. If they are directed to follow company rules that are the same for the company's employees, they ARE a company employee.

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=99921,00.html

[TorchTheWitch]

40. As a stripper I have a LOT to say about this shit

This is how every strip club in the US works. You pay a house fee to be allowed to work. On top of that there are manditory fees to pay the DJ, housemom, and usually other club workers such as security staff, champagne room host, waitresses, bartenders, and in some cases even the manager. On top of all these fees (and even though classified as illegal) fines for lateness, being late to stage, not changing one's costume at a designated time, "allowing" certain conduct by customers that breaks the rules, etc.

Further, many clubs don't ALLOW dancers to ask for tips and the clubs are even set up to prevent customer tipping. On top of all the fees and fines, most also take a portion of your dance sale money... typically, for a $20 lapdance the club takes $5 to $10 (25-50%) and typically 50% of VIP/champagne room sale money.

And $30-$60 house fee per shift is CHEAP at most high end clubs. There are many clubs that charge $100 or SEVERAL hundred dollars for the "priviledge" of working.

Many years ago this same issue came up in CA, and it was ruled that in all CA clubs dancers were declared employees but not ONE single thing has changed.

With all the grave problems of being an independent contractor treated like an employee only when it benefits the club, I'd much rather still be an IC. If dancers were made employees they can be made (and would be made) to evenly split all earned income. All this does is inspire the dancers to NOT sell anything because there's no way us hard workers are going to bust our asses doing all the work and giving part of what WE made to the slackers that fart around the dressing room all night bitching about how much it sucks and not actually working.

If clubs were made to pay us again and let us keep all we earn in tips and sales 90% or more of them would go out of business thus leaving most of us without a job at all.

The single biggest reason that clubs are able to get away with this is it is the IRS who determines who is an IC and who is not, and VERY few dancers pay their taxes. The clubs know this and know that because of it they have us ALL over a barrel.

[seabeyond]

47. i appreciate

your two posts on this thread. interesting info. thanks for keeping it real

tried to pm you..... but. lol

[TorchTheWitch]

55. you're welcome

[FormerDittoHead]

41. Does this mean I'll have to fill out a W4 form to get a massage now?

So much for THAT happy ending.

[TorchTheWitch]

49. forms? what forms?

I have yet to work at any club that officially acknowledges that any of the dancers exist. They aren't sending out 1099's which is why only the tiniest fraction of us pay taxes. The club I work in now doesn not even know my real name. They never had me fill out an application/contract nor asked to see my ID... never even asked what my real first name is.

[G_j]

76. I imagine

the anonymity has it's positives also. I used to do a lot of carpentry that was often similar, in that you just take some cash home each day. It can have a lot of advantages, unless of course, someone screws you over and there is nothing you can do about it.

[TorchTheWitch]

81. absolutely

Being anonomous is really important to me in this biz, and I don't like the idea of a club having way too much personal info about me especially since most managers are assholes... very evil things can be done with that info.

And being ripped off is way too common. It took me almost a year to finally quit the club I worked at before the one I'm at now because they purposely wouldn't cash out your funny money regularly so you ALWAYS had about $1000 or even $2000 backed up. When I finally got mine whittled down to around $200 I quit and just ate that $200 loss. And naturally I've called and gone to that club numerous times to get that $200 cashed out and naturally the manager hides from me. Good news is that I can probably sell it to one of my friends... he never went to that club while I worked there as a curtisy to me, but now that I don't work there anymore he would probably like to go back, and he can use the funny money for himself.

[G_j]

91. it gets more difficult

with all the other ways we must 'check in' to the system.
There is something about some, ahem.. 'shady' realms of business that tend to empower the individual.
I'm on the books now, but I will always be disgusted by having to feed the vampires of the military industrial complex/
Blackwater, etc. I'm not rich or greedy, let me survive with dignity.

[lildreamer316]

59. AS A STRIPPER I DO NOT LIKE THIS lawsuit AT ALL. I DO NOT WANT TO BE AN EMPLOYEE.

First of all, yes...we have always, as long as I have danced; had to pay a 'house fee' to work. As independent contractors, we 'rent' the lockers and the stage to earn our money. It irritates me to no end when people think I get paid by the company who owns the club, and then use that as an excuse to not get a dance.

I CANNOT SAY THIS LOUD ENOUGH: I DO NOT WANT TO BE CLASSIFIED AS AN EMPLOYEE.

Sure, there are lots and lots of things that are not fair about what happens to us in the club setting. But, as an independent contractor, I have the right to change clubs at a moment's notice; to leave (technically - probably with a fine or to risk not being able to come back to that club for awhile) when I want to; to come in when I want to; etc. etc.There are many, many things I like about being an independent contractor that I don't want to give up.

Being an independent contractor offers me a freedom of movement and personal responsibility that I highly value and treasure. I can walk into any club in any city or town in the US, some of Canada; and even some of Australia and work that night; tip everyone for the stage rental and their effort (the dj;the floormen; the housemom) and leave..period.

Depending on the laws of the state I am working in; I can drink on the floor while I am working. IF I am working in a state/city/county where we are not supposed to be drinking during a shift and I am 'caught' by local law enforcement drinking anyway;by being an independent contractor the club can (sometimes) claim that it was my own, INDEPENDENT CONTRACTOR decision to break the law. Sure; this on the face of it seems unfair - the club gets off with a slap on the wrist and I have to pay a fine; etc...but in the long run, by NOT being an employee I do not get the ENTIRE club shut down; putting possibly a hundred or more people out of work. Most of the time 'raids' like this are just political stunts and fodder for police and politicians to say that they are 'doing something' about the 'horrible crime' of bare breasts/nudity in a (usually) private club - and these 'raids' do not happen too often; because dancers who drink with the customers make the club more money; so there's an incentive for the club owner to keep the po-po off our collective backs. This applies to other facets of the industry, of course - sometimes in a not very good way. This is just one example of how it makes it easier for me to be an IC - and get back to my job of making money; instead of the drama and paperwork involved in being an employee (in this scenario).

I will add more reasons that this lawsuit and the precedent it sets are a REALLY BAD IDEA in a few minutes. We have had this argument on the two boards dedicated to my profession that I frequent often - many ladies that have been in the biz for any appreciable amount of time ALL AGREE that this is a UNIFORMLY DUMB move.

Yes, I trade my freedom of movement and ANONYMITY (VERY IMPORTANT THING TO A LOT OF WORKING MOTHERS IN THE BIZ who do not want this EVER showing up on their record!!) for no job security, no unemployment and no healthcare if I hurt myself..but if WE WERE TO PASS SINGLE PAYER; part of that would not even be an issue, now..would it??

OMG, I'm so irritated by the shortsightedness of this!!!!

[Gidney N Cloyd]

61. It's about time you chimed in here. nt

[redqueen]

62. I was so hoping that you'd chime in on this thread.

Nice to see you. :hi:

[TorchTheWitch]

66. agreed except for working when you want

In my area you are scheduled as to when you can work. You can't just walk in any time the club is open and work as long as you feel like it, and leave when you feel like it. The ONLY good thing about this is that it controls how many dancers are working at the same time, but not even that is very good anymore since most of the clubs here highly overbook.

The club I'm working at now is only scheduling any of the dancers for one or two days a week and deciding themselves what shift it will be (could be night or day shift and as many or as little hours per shift as they like). A LOT of the clubs are doing this in this area during the summer slow months as a matter of course.

What I wouldn't give to be able to work when I wanted and leave when I wanted without getting fired.

I absolutely agree that there is no way on earth I'd rather be treated as an employee rather than an IC... you and I know the disaster that would be. We KNOW what the clubs would get away with if that happened if they managed to stay open at all.

[lildreamer316]

70. I do see your point, but I think that restriction is a 'temporary' thing..

let me explain.

Scheduling is, on the face of it, a 'safety' measure for clubs for several reasons: they want to ensure enough dancers to work - thereby ensuring a base bottom line tipout amount they can pretty much count on- and and they also want to ensure that none of their dancers fly the coop to another club. However, this would not be such a problem if 1)there weren't so many clubs in almost ANY given market (the amount of clubs per capita in an decent-sized city in the US is absolutely crazy) and 2) the girls were making enough money on a consistent basis to not WANT to not show up for work (or if they were being treated well on a consistent basis; add-your-own-reason here). *TorchtheWitch; I know you know all of this; just spelling out for others*

Because of the way that the culture in the US, the economy, and the basic assumptions and structure of the adult entertainment/'stripping' business is coming together to create a perfect storm of problems for our business; I think we are due for a major (although irritatingly slowwww) overhaul of said business structure and basic ideology. Remember: Burlesque is absolutely HUGE right now..why? Because the strip clubs lost any veneer or notion they had of entertainment somewhere along the way...necessitating those people who, like my sig line quotee; want to be provided "entertainment; not an expensive but poor substitute for a prostitute(s)"...to go somewhere else for that erotic entertainment. Meanwhile, greedy owners opened more and more clubs - more than most areas can rationally bear to keep afloat. As well as lots of single-owner opportunists who saw quick-money potential and jumped in; with no thought to long term sustainability. Sound like any other group of business people we know (bankers; wall street denizens; mortgage ppl; Enron?? LOL!!)?

Seeing all this, one realizes that the biz must change or die - in a very real sense. It's just that the owners don't seem to realize this yet, or they are resisting the whole idea. I think that we will, most definitely; see many of the clubs close..but there will be some left standing; and they will be higher-class; gown-and-stage and not much contact, and a few extremely seedy mom-and pops. Legally, the clubs can either become thinly-veiled brothels (which will not last long before the opportunity-driven cities and townships will pounce on the prime political fodder they are and pass laws that permanently close any such club) or they can become shortened-up burlesque with table dances. If a club owner wants to stay profitable, he'd be well advised to choose the latter and protect his multi-million dollar investment. There's more to be said here; but I'm trying to keep this from becoming a treatise.

Now, my point in saying all this in relation to what you and others are going through on the restrictive scheduling front is that such practices, although in theory make sense; will not serve the biz in the long run - they are trying to solve the problem (they in part created) by sticking on a band-aid on a severed-limb wound. A bit of structure is always a good thing in a business where many employees are not very work-minded; think this is all fun, games and a way to find a really cute boyfriend with a lot of money. BUT, it does not encourage those of us with half a brain to continue to work and to show up at a place where we are treated like children; when we are very well aware that this is not the way that it has been, or needs to be. It beats down your soul in a way getting naked for people never will - at least not for me.

In other words, the general idea of the business is to be a 'nanny-state' ; and this particular business is better served when the IC's are given a 'free-market'/'survival of the fittest' approach. I hesitate to say it that way on this board. If the damn owners would just run their businesses correctly from the top down; they would not have to seriously worry about how many girls they have on schedule or whether or not you are taking the night to work across town- they would be confident in the fact that they are providing something that can't be found just anywhere else; and that you will want to be there for it. It's not out of the realm of possibility; it just takes something not to be found much anymore - hard work, patience and an ability to understand the market you are functioning in.

Again, I think things will calm down on the restrictiveness re: scheduling and working other places; but I have no idea WHEN it's going to penetrate their thick brains. One would have thought the recent downturn would have gotten them to be a bit more innovative and pay attention, but so far no such luck.

And by the time it does penetrate their brains, dear...it's possible we will both be on walkers ;)

[TorchTheWitch]

77. Just like Melonie has been saying for many years

That the clubs will go to the two-tier system much like Europe... a very few very high end strict no touch gown clubs where only the very best can hope to be hired and the very seedy underground brothel for the rest.

I always prefered scheduling because it controls the dancer/customer ratio and ensures there's always enough dancers during slow times and not two many dancers during the busy times as well as providing a wide variety of types. The only thing I never liked about it was that until you gained seniority and proved yourself as responsible and a money-maker, you got the worst shifts and few of them. As long as I've worked in this area there is scheduling and that's how it's always worked. Also, the clubs are not forgiving if you have to come in late or call out or leave early... they don't care if you're running a 104 degree temperature or that your mother just died.

Several of the clubs here are importing foreign dancers particularly from countries where prostitution is legal (so giving $10 blow jobs all night is normal to them) and contracting them to work 10 or more hours a day every single day. They put them up in the local seedy motel, pick them up to go to work and take them back to the motel after closing. They have no transportation of their own so have virtually no mobility and they have no legal right to work here since they come in on visitor visas. They're charged much higher house fees than the regular local house girls and most of them can't speak a word of English or know how much a dollar is worth or how to make change, so they don't even know when they're ripped off. And it's not just the seedy clubs doing this, it's some of the higher end clubs. Some of these places even confiscate their passports so they HAVE to complete their booking.

I think a great deal of the problem is that many club owners got into the business when you could be dumb as a brick and still make money hand over fist. Now that club owners actually have to know how to run a successful strip club business or go under, these owners are floundering and making the most stupid decisions... raise the door charge, require customers to buy a 3 lapdance minimum, raise the drink prices, get rid of the kitchen since "we don't make money off of food anyway" (stupid idiots... now you have no daytime customers or any happy hour customers!), get rid of the ATM and make customers buy funny money they can only purchase with a creditcard, pack the place with dancers to garner fees even though it means that 90% of the dancers are ugy, really overweight, drugged out or drunk, etc., etc. Then they can't figure out why their clubs are going down faster than ever.

I don't know when or if they're ever learn before I'm drooling in my wheelchair in the nursing home. And I'm not sure it will even matter. FAR too many women these days are willing to whip off their clothes and dance naked and let themselves be groped for FREE at the local pick-up joint because it's "cool" and gets them attention. This business has become PACKED with women who think that making $50 and customers buying them drinks all night is a gold mine.

[lildreamer316]

84. Your last point is what I 've been saying for years...

but I had some hope that that particular fact would be part of the wake-up call to some of these owners to get their shit together and jump ahead..don't be FORCED to do what you are supposed to do; do it on your own and you'll make money hand over fist BEFORE all of your competitiors. But I think I have too much faith and not enough reality.

There's still a window of opportunity for some of these guys to pull thier heads out of their asses. But it's a small one. I expect to see even more harsh laws than have already come down the pipes (examples: Ohio and Houston) and a wave of them. These boys are going to get caught with their pants down (literally) if they don't man up and do what needs to be done.

Hell, at this point I'd be (temporarily) grateful for a three dance minimum..but I do see how that's utter bullshit.
I have only been back to a full schedule for two weeks and already I'm drained..and I've barely gotten naked. It's a shame.

[TorchTheWitch]

97. Football season cometh!

Praise Jesus!

August and September are generally the worst months of the year. A ton of girls will be quiting to go back to school or at least severely shorting their hours. Autumn can't come soon enough!

[graywarrior]

67. I am so happy you posted here.

It's so nice to hear from someone who has actual experience in something around here.

[lildreamer316]

71. LOL!! It's me and TorchtheWitch....

and I think one person upthread said she had danced in the '90s also.
That's about it.
This is a serious hot-button issue in my biz at the moment; and I have a lot to say about it--as does Torch. But it is extremely complicated.

[TorchTheWitch]

82. more than extremely... I think you really have to live it to really understand it

Whenever I try to explain all this stuff to my SO he goes cross-eyed. Every time I mention something absurd about this business when he grasps the situation he's usual response is a spluttered "but that ridiculous/bizzare/gross/makes no sense," etc. Then he throws up his hands and exclaims that he can't figure out how the clubs can possibly still be functioning at all... and that's when I give him the exasperated eyeroll and say "it's the BOOBS, honey." And he NEVER gets that it's both actual boobs we put out there in the club AND the figurative "boobs" that run the clubs. LOL!

[Emit]

74. I had to do some research on this matter a couple of years ago

in order to determine average wages for strippers in the LV area. I work in Vocational Rehabilitation Counseling, as an assistant to a Vocational and Economic Forensic specialist. We have had several personal injury cases involving strippers.

In our business, it is common practice to base lost wages due to personal injury on the Plaintiff's earnings as shown in previous tax records, or from the Social Security Admin records that summarizes a worker's wages.

In the case of the majority of the strippers for which we have provided expert witness testimony - meaning, we were hired by their Plaintiff atty to provide a Vocational Loss Summary and vocational evaluation based on their ability/inability to return to stripping, or any job for that matter, due to some catastrophic injury - their tax records never reflected their true income.

Now, in the court of law, it is very difficult to claim a certain wage loss without appropriate documents - the defense just eats you up for that. In these cases, my boss and I really felt bad for these women because they never declared their wages and their tax documents sorely understated their actual earnings, which goes to earning capacity and future wage loss. In some cases, we can use state, national statistics or metro area statistics, but the vocation of stripper usually defaults to dancers in general - (I have not seen the occupation of stripper in any of these data bases - these data bases are from the Labor Statistics, ONET and other occupation/labor related sources), so the wages are much lower than these women were likely earning.

At any rate, I appreciate your and the other DUer's comments because it details much of the stuff I had researched and adds even more info for my research file. (I am literally bookmarking this thread for future reference if I ever need it.)

But do be aware, I understand fully your comment about trading your freedom - however, if you are ever in a position to need to have your income capacity evaluated, if you are not declaring a decent wage on your tax returns, it can come back to bite you in the ass, so to speak. We see this with waitresses, hairdressers, real estate sales (basically, a lot of independent contractors who may be prone to pocket their earnings/tips and not report them), and some business owners who do not report their profits and losses fairly or keep poor records.

At any rate, I really appreciate the info you have provided on this thread! Thanks! :hi:

[lildreamer316]

86. Well. that's kind of the understanding that I had when I went into this..

not that I may have had the full understanding of what that decision could mean at the time; but...both husband and I are in the biz; as well as him being a stand-alone turntableist for over 10 years. Our jobs, by definition, almost never can include a full accounting; even if we personally try to be accountable (there is such a thing as tip books for entertainers and we can be asked to provide them when filing quarterly). There are just too many variables in a bar business.

I am lucky so far as to have had other jobs, as well as a loving and supportive husband and a very small inheritance (houses that I can't touch for another three years). Other than the lack of HEALTH INSURANCE (ahem); I am ok...so in that respect; I am pretty much on par with anyone else.

I can't see myself really attempting to recoup 'lost wages' in a court of law with any of these clubs anyway..it's almost always a losing proposition; and the fact that we know some ppl in the industry would possibly lead to more help in that kind of situation than going the legal route. The more things change; the more they stay the same.

I've only been back to work for two weeks after being out for years.. I think I may actually attempt to keep a taxable record; since I plan on having breast enhancement surgery early next year and want to be able to write that off on my taxes anyway. It's not like my earnings have been something spectacular so far as to really give me a problem - lol.

[MrScorpio]

75. Girl's Gotta Make A Living

I hope they win big time

[tammywammy]

79. I thought this was settled years ago when the Lusty Lady sued

That dancers are employees not independent contractors, though the vast vast majority of clubs treat them as independent contractors.

[TorchTheWitch]

87. they unionized and then bought the club

The Lusty Lady was never an average strip club. It's a peep-show where the customer is separated from the dancer by a glass pane and they do very little to no dancing... while there is no physical contact at all with the dancer, most of what they do is masturbate with or without toys with "no holes barred". As far as I know it's still open and running.

Actually, you have it backward... we're all IC's who are treated as employees only when it benefits the club. Read lildreamer's and my posts on why there is no way in hell we would prefer to be employees rather than IC's.

[laughingliberal]

80. I wish them luck. Legal prostitutes in Nevada have the same type of situation

They are considered IC's. House takes 50% of their total and they pay board for the days they work. Also are expected to tip housekeepers, bartenders, etc...

Depending on the brothel, they may also have non-compete clauses and they are generally required to work a minimum number of hours on a shift-generally 12. Some houses may require 24 hour stretches if the line-up is thin. That would be a group to organize but it is a very small group as they only exist in one state.

[lildreamer316]

88. Oh, it's absolutely nuts what they have to put up with..

and I wish we could actually get some kind of fairness for them. For god's sake; if we're going to have prostitution legal somewhere in the 'land of the free'; it needs to be better than this. For most women it's best to take your chances as an 'illegal' independant escort than deal with that crap.

[imdjh]

89. I'm sure she reported all her tips for taxes and social security. Seems brave.