"The War of Southern Treason" - raised a few eyebrows when calling the Civil War this

[Taverner]

But I will always call it that



There were many evils of the Confederates other than torturing and starving Union POWs or fighting to keep slavery, or the serfdom that was Confederate life (it wasn't that much better for most of the Confederate Poor Whites - - but they went and faught for the very force oppressing them. Anything new?)

But just show somebody this picture the next time they anything good about the Confederacy.

[The Magistrate]

1. That Is Its Proper Name, Sir

[Posteritatis]

41. I'm still fond of "the Slaver's Revolt," myself. (nt)

[JackRiddler]

167. Karl Marx on "The North American Civil War" (1861 article)

That's more or less how he saw it - or perhaps: as the point when the North said enough to the class of 300,000 slave owners who had been making the majority of the country dance to their tune for four score & some odd years.

Must reading!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6586164&mesg_id=6586164

[Taverner]

193. Very Interesting...wish I could rec a reply

[Yupster]

238. It's treason if

they had no constitutional right to secede. It's a foreign conquest if they did.

The Constitution was silent on the question.

The argument over ratifying the Constitution made it clear a state could leave if it didn't like the new government. If it ever was originally argued that once you join you can never leave, there's no question the original Constitution would have never been ratified. It was barely ratified as it was.

Doesn't matter now. The question was settled in the greatest court of all, the battlefield. The legal opinion is that you can't ever secede from the union or you will get your ass kicked.

Texas was an interesting example. From 1836 - 1865 Texas was five different nations in that 30 year period. They went from a province of Mexico to an Independant Republic to a US state to a Confederate state to a US state.

You'd have to excuse the voters of Texas in not realizing that they didn't have the right to change which nation they belonged to when they voted 80 % to 20 % to leave the union. To the voters of Texas changing governments was not a very rare thing to do in 1861. They voted to leave and didn't expect to get their asses kicked because of it. Treason? The voters of Texas didn't think so. They just thought they were voting to change which nation they were part of. Why would they think they didn't have that right?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

2. Truth is an absolute defense.

[Libertas1776]

3. That is from

Andersonville if I am not mistaken. A veritable Confederate death camp.

[Taverner]

16. Yes indeed

[SIMPLYB1980]

4. I just hope Non-Southerners realize,

that not all Southerners are proud of what the Confederacy did. I'm glad that the Union won, but also I have to say that it was a civil war and neither sides hands are complexly clean.

[ET Awful]

8. Bingo. I won't defend the Confederacy, but the Union engaged in many atrocities of its own

during the war.

Do we really need to get into subjects like General Sherman's "scorched Earth" tactics?

[DCKit]

15. The winner writes history. Ask W*.

[Taverner]

17. No - they aren't - and there are many untold stories of Union collaboration among Southerners

But the CSA was not a Democracy...

[liquid diamond]

145. Your side started it. The South would not quit until our hero Sherman

destroyed your remaining supplies in his glorious march to the sea. I have no sympathy for that region of America. Considering the teabagger marches, Joe Wilson's outburst, and those states being deep red, not much has changed there. The South shall rise again my ass. I'll take shit for this post, but The Civil War is an emotional issue for me.

[DrCory]

161. Speak For Yourself...

Sherman is not "our" hero. Excerp from a letter to Grant written in 1866:

"We must act with vindictive earnestness against the Sioux, even to their extermination, men, women and children"

Here's another, 1867:

"During an assault, the soldiers cannot pause to distinguish between male and female, or even discriminate as to age."

There's more, much more, if you would like.

Yeah, real "hero"! :eyes:

[liquid diamond]

189. Those letters were written after the Civil War. I was talking about

him breaking the South's back and putting an END to the war that the South started.

[DrCory]

214. Ah, I See...

A racist psychopath is a hero so long as he's brutal toward your enemy.

[Taverner]

197. Sherman was a Psycho

Back then, going Psycho was considered moral strength

Among some today (GOP) it is still considered moral strength

[Dan]

228. Well, to be honest

Sherman was one of the first modern generals.

War against civilians, etc.,whether you agree with it or not, it is how wars have been fought in what is considered modern warfare.

There are no knights - there are only winners or losers - and really in war, we all lose.

[Taverner]

194. FTR it is none of our sides. The folks who's side it was are long dead.

[backwoodsbob]

5. I'm from Virginia

if I come over and take my personal flogging will people please stop the south bashing?

[redqueen]

6. This is not south-bashing. This is just history.

And I say that as someone who is absolutely sick of the mindless, ubiquitous south-bashing that goes on here.

This, IMO, does not qualify as south-bashing.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

12. Yes, it is. No shocking pictures at that site? (nt)

[liberaltrucker]

14. I stand corrected re: post 7

:blush:

[Taverner]

19. Yes it is, but as many have stated, there was almost a concerted effort at Andersonville...

...to make things as miserable as possible

The CSA Constitution had no barring of Cruel and Unusual Punishment btw....

[Octafish]

22. IHR = Institute for Historical Review

Didn't that organization make a name for itself promoting falsehoods about the Holocaust?

[redqueen]

32. Did it? Does that mean the information is false? (nt)

[Octafish]

38. They are wrong about the Holocaust...

... That tells me they have a peculiar agenda regarding the NAZIs. It is, therefore, highly probable that they are wrong about other stuff.

Regarding treatment of Confederate POWs, they may be correct. I don't know. I do know that I don't trust them.

[RoyGBiv]

44. I won't go there, but ...

If the message is that Ft. Delaware was a hellish place in which countless men died unnecessarily and under conditions below the standards even for that time, then they are correct.

Broken clock, twice a day, etc.

None of that changes the fact the Southern state government's actions were treason, but the introduction of the conditions at prison camps is that kind of detail that often detracts from the main point. Americans, on both sides of that war, were vicious bastards who showed little regard for humanity in many cases.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. It was a civil war and outside of World Wars

civil wars are the worst....

Just a note on that.

[Posteritatis]

39. It's safe to assume that *anything* out of the IHR is suspect, yes

If I read there that the sky was blue, I wouldn't believe it until the next sunny day I saw out my window.

[The Magistrate]

40. A Much Better general Account, Ma'am, may be Found Here

http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1959/5/1959_5_4.shtml

[Aristus]

23. Remember the consequences of cause-and-effect: That POW camp would never have existed

if the Confederates hadn't fired the first shots of the war in the siege of Fort Sumter.

Just one of many reasons why the "War Of Northern Aggression" is such a stupid euphemism for the Civil War.

[The Midway Rebel]

52. Actually, Lincoln started it by trying to resupply the fort

they warned him what would happen but he aggressively did it anyway but, like others in this thread have claimed, victors write the history books so....

I like to call it the Brothers War. I'm from the Border States.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

53. Blaming the victim, eh?

That's kind of like blaming the WTC towers for being so tall. They were asking for it.

[The Midway Rebel]

55. Not trying to blame the victim here

but rather trying to illustrate the futility of anything constructive coming from "he hit me first" type of arguments.

War is a failure on many levels, no?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

57. Illustrate a little harder, will you?

Because you kinda failed pretty hard there. Complaining about how the U.S. military was resupplying a U.S. fort and all.

[The Midway Rebel]

61. Thats not a complaint, sir

it is called a fact.

Any other asparagus you want to cast my way?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

63. Yes, it's a fact. It's just that there's nothing wrong with it.

Some say Barack Obama is having U.S. bases supplied as we speak. What are you going to do now, Colonel Sanders?

[Aristus]

163. Yeah, what happens if President Obama attempts to resupply Fort Hood?

Or Fort Bliss? Or Fort Benning? Is that Northern aggression against the South? :shrug:


And of course, if President Obama didn't keep U.S. military forts properly supplied, there will always be some terbakka-chawin', twangin' idjits who will accuse him of hating the military and wanting it to fail... :eyes:

[The Magistrate]

62. The Rationalizations Of the Southron, Sir, Are Intricate As a Bucket Of Earthworms

Gen. Forrest, for all his faults, spoke honestly at least once: "If we ain't fightin fer slavery, I'd like ta know what the Hell we're fightin fer!"

[The Magistrate]

54. You Cannot Seriously Maintain that Constituted Aggression, Sir

The south was in a state of open revolt, under arms: that is crime, Sir, it is Treason, and it was the commencement of war.

[The Midway Rebel]

56. No, I do not but my ancestors

likely did. And then he called for national conscription and suspended habeus corpus and REALLY pissed them off.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

58. Was that before or after your moronic ancestors committed treason?

[The Midway Rebel]

66. Do you really think that was necessary?

or constructive?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

67. Hey, you said it yourself.

Apparently they got upset that a U.S. fort got resupplied.

Pretty fucking moronic thing to get upset about.

[The Magistrate]

60. Then, Sir, They Were Traitors And Criminals, And Their View is Of No Consequence

[The Midway Rebel]

64. That may be your view sir

but to me, they were just poor folks trapped in a very terrible situation, acting and reacting not much differently than would you or I.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

65. Technically, it's a fact.

:shrug:

[The Midway Rebel]

85. Sure...

but it took a really bloody war to prove that a fact. A war that did not happen in a vacum, sparked by the gun fire a Ft. Sumter. Like I said up thread: war is a failure on many levels, no?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

87. The Civil War is a failure on the south's level.

It's because of your ancestors treason that their was a war.

[The Midway Rebel]

99. Really?

I never thought of it that way.

Bein's howz Ize just a cracker from de south and all!



:+

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

106. As long as you're a confederate apologist...

that's all you ever will be.

[The Midway Rebel]

119. Haw haw!

...you have no idea how funny that is.

I got to bed...you guys are hilarious.


:rofl:

[Taverner]

195. Answer me this - do you think it's OK to fly the Confederate Flag?

[The Midway Rebel]

202. I suppose that would depend on which confederate flag and where it flew. Because...

I do believe in private property rights and freedom of speech even if it is speech that I find patently offensive.

Let me ask you a question: Do you think it is progressive of the Democratic party or conducive to discussions about history to wave a bloody shirt?

[Taverner]

204. Hmmm are you talking about the debunked Jesse Jackson rumor?

[The Midway Rebel]

205. I have no idea what you are talking about, I will have to Google that one.

So, the answer to your second direct question to me is; no.

Care to answer my question now?

[The Magistrate]

70. No, Sir: They Were Traitors Going To War For The Right To Hold Slaves

Which right was not even materially threatened, which makes them fools and knaves besides.

The War of Southern Treason was just that, and wholly the responsibility of the South, which, much as can be observed on a smaller scale today, indulged itself in simultaneous delusions of persecution and superiority to the point of overthrowing reason and decency.

[Taverner]

192. "A Tropical Empire" - that alone should confirm everything you are saying

Not much different than a "Thousand Year Reich"

And yes, I think the Nazi Party was a Treasonous bunch as well...having burned down the Reichstag.

[roguevalley]

92. poor folks trapped. if they hadn't been gungho for it, then the

traitors would have had no one behind them as they split the union. 'Trapped' is kind of generous for what happened.

[The Midway Rebel]

110. Generous? Hmmm, yeah well ....

it seems a lot of my ancestors and likely some of yours (by the way) could not leave their farms and book a flight to Cancun while the shit blew over. Busy season I guess.

[roguevalley]

117. if you are a southern sympathizer for the war, you are not hiding it

very well. My relatives fought for Missouri. When they could leave, they did. In fact, my mom's family disliked this war so much she thought until she was an adult that her family were union. It shocked her to death to find out otherwise because they never corrected her when the topic came up. There is nothing to be proud of about the southern side of this war. It was a sad failure of reason brought about by people who had moneyed interests in keeping their 'peculiar institution' and the overweening gall to believe they could beat an industrialized opponent. All the General Lees in the world could not overcome better logistics: bullets, food, etc: and a president who was going to hold the union.

I also say this as a Davis.

[The Midway Rebel]

136. If I were a "southern sympathizer" it seems

you would be able to figure it out because your sentence number five is about the smartest gotdamn thing I have read in this thread tonight.

[Selatius]

150. You are related to Jefferson Davis? His plantation is one town west of my home.

It was rebuilt after Hurricane Katrina, although a large part of me wanted it swept away for good.

[DevonRex]

174. I am an ex- Southerner and I agree with you. Enough of the BS rationalizations.

It was what it was: treason.

Edited to clarify that I'm an ex-Southerner.

[roguevalley]

89. the south left. they had the ball first. Jeez. Lincoln was relieving a

fort with people in it who didn't commit treason. I had relatives on both sides and even had them fight each other in the same battle on both sides. My great grandpa was with Shelby's cavalry and was a prisoner held in New Orleans until he escaped and hid out in Southern Illinois. The south still bears the burden and the shame of this war.

[Taverner]

191. LOL - That's like "He started it - he was breathin' and that can only mean one thing..."

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. That my friend is HISTORY.

some aspects of history are not nice, or PC... but bashing the south for saying that prisoners were starved to death is not bashing, but history.

That said Sherman's march wasn't a cake walk either.

[Taverner]

21. Sherman went a bit psycho there

Kind of like Patton, but without the movie

Both were sociopaths IMHO

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Well at least Sherman got one thing right

over Patton...

War is hell...

Now here is the irony... what was the backbone of the US army on that other march (to Berlin)

The M4 Sherman...

Which for the record was quite inferior to the top of the line German kitties and if the high command decided to let Patton loose on the Ruskies. to the Russian equipment too.

[Thothmes]

154. Actually it was the British Army that first refered to the M4

as the Sherman. They gave Amerian tanks received from lend lease names of American CW Generals, such as LeeGrant, Stuart and Sherman. These were

[proteus_lives]

196. Didn't they call the Sherman the "Ronson Lighter" because...

Of thin armor and how it went up in flames?

[Thothmes]

234. Yes, the M4 used a gasoline engine. Pretty east to lite off

[RoyGBiv]

45. Eh ... I dunno ...

Sherman's March wasn't all that much of a horrible thing in context. It's often cited as the progenitor of so-called "total war" along with the trench warfare around Petersburg and the technological innovations put to use to try to get through lines (see The Crater) being a harbinger of the carnage of WWI, but there's more evidence for the latter than the former.

Genghis Kahn knew about total war, a long, long time ago.

Sherman's greatest sins during his march involved his army freeing slaves as they went, then not doing anything to try to protect them. More than that, they occasionally went to the extent of destroying bridges, not to keep the Confederates from following, but to prevent these newly freed individuals from doing so, knowing full well that the Confederates were close behind, were not strong enough to harass the Union army itself, but would take out revenge on the former slaves by slaughtering them.

Many Union soliders considered this to be the best way to deal with the enslaved population.

Now, granted, the army was not equipped to care for these people, and their following the army did create severe problems from a military perspective, but that goes back to Sherman's failing. He didn't consider this beforehand and took no measures to account for it.

What he did to Georgia and South Carolina was relatively minor in contrast.

My favorite story from one of my trips to Georgia involves my touring some plantation mansions that had been built before the Civil War. A tour guide at one, swear to gopod, told the horrific story of Sherman's march through Georgia, Sherman's bummers coming upon "this very home you see here and burning it to the ground."

Later in the day ...

"Ma'am, is this mansion restored?"

"Oh, no. It's all the original building, with some additions for modern conveniences."

Think about that for a second ... the same kind of story is told all over the South, sometimes in places Sherman didn't even go.

[Taverner]

Not South Bashing, Confederate Bashing

There's a difference

If they did polls back then, the majority of Southerners would have been against the war.

Why should they fight? They didn't own any slaves.

[MineralMan]

30. Nobody's south-bashing. This happened so long ago, but

the secession states were treasonous, and waged war against the United States of America. They started the war, and lost. It was treason, pure and simple. It's history.

[roguevalley]

86. this isn't southern bashing. this is about stupid decisions and actions

based on slavery and hubris. enjoy it. you can see what the rest of us feel getting hit with Palin stuff and accusing all of us being as stupid as her up here.

[Selatius]

149. As a Mississippian, I'll tell you straight up that human skeleton is part of our history.

You cannot call it bashing anymore than you could call bringing up the Holocaust as Germany bashing.

[DevonRex]

175. As an ex-Miss, I agree. It's just a fact, plain and simple. nt

[liberaltrucker]

7. As a transplanted Southerner, I agree with you.

In my high school history text (published in Atlanta, naturally)
it was referred to as the "War Between the States". It was also
called the "War of Northern Aggression", although the Confederacy
fired the first shots (Ft Sumter, SC).

The atrocities at Andersonville, GA are well documented and deplorable.
Some in the South talk of similar acts by Federal forces. I've found no
evidence of that.

I have direct ancestors who fought for the Confederacy. They fought
bravely for a cause they believed in. For that I'm proud to be their
descendant. However, that doesn't mean I don't consider them traitors.

[The Magistrate]

18. Northern Prison Camps Were No Treat, Sir

Camp Douglas in Chicago being a well known example. Some of the general lethality owed to the poor state of medical knowledge at the time; crowding men close together was certain to produce a significant death toll, and it was not uncommon for armies in winter camp to lose more men than in major battles. Overall, more men died of disease than wounds in the conflict. Andersonville does take on exceptional qualities, however, as there seems to have been a deliberate attempt to render the prisoners as miserable as possible, owing to the break-down of prisoner exchanges towards the end of the war. This was in some degree a calculated decision by the Federal government, since parole was seldom honored and the limits on Southern man-power were worth exploiting in an attritional struggle, but the Confederate refusal to treat Negro soldiers as prisoners of war subject to exchange provided a convenient pretext. Confederate policy seems to have been to render the condition of Federal prisoners so wretched as to force the resumption of exchanges.

[wishlist]

9. I agree and see nothing admirable about Confederate sympathizers

I have lived in NC all my adult life after growing up in NY and I have never comprehended how the same people who claim to be gung ho all American patriots can also have such a stubbornly proud attitude toward the Confederacy when the rebels were violent insurgents bent on destroying the USA.

[GoCubsGo]

26. Same here.

I'm a Chicago native who has lived half her life in South Carolina. I don't get it, either. Another thing I don't understand is why they're so proud, when they lost. Also, many of them don't seem to understand that many, many who fought for the South were conscripted. Their ancestors most likely DID NOT fight voluntarily.

On another level, I DO understand. I hear this is all about "heritage." I also hear claims that the war was about "states right" and not slavery. I guess there are an awful lot of people out there who never bothered to read the declaration of secession. It's all right there, smack dab in the middle of it. Oh, I see... It IS about "states rights"--the right for states to allow their citizens to hold people as slaves. Um. Sure.

[roguevalley]

96. same crap Perry spouts in Texas, that Texas can leave when it wants

because that's built into their statehood language. it isn't and he's a dumbass.

[JVS]

13. How about "That time those dumbfucks got too uppity and ended up getting their asses whooped and...

a couple of states burned down"?

[darkstar3]

20. No one wins arguments by talking about atrocities,

especially when war is involved. After all, war is an effort by both sides in a conflict to kill their enemies en masse, an atrocity by any other name...

I think, though, that you've hit the nail on the head with how you've named the Civil War. Calling it the War of Southern Treason may not sound pretty to someone from the South, but that doesn't change the fact that it is absolutely true.

Just remember this: History IS written by the winners, and if we had lost the Revolutionary War it probably would have been called the War of Colonial Treason...

[Ghost in the Machine]

24. Call it "The War of Northern Aggression" and see if eyebrows raise... n/t

[Taverner]

27. They will here in CA - they will not in TX

Unless we are talking Austin

[TxRider]

213. Baloney

Half the people in Texas wouldn't even know the state was in a civil war, 15% are foreign born anyway, and close to half moved to Texas from somewhere else.

Calling the civil war anything in Texas won't raise an eyebrow. That was that old war fought out east way back when..

[Paladin]

221. Goes To Show How Much You Know About Modern-Day Texas.

3.5 million Texans voted for Obama----they didn't all live in Austin......

[jgraz]

28. Remind me why we fought so hard to get these guys back...

:shrug:

[Taverner]

43. Because there were many Americans from the South who were good and decent

And they collaborated with the North, or sent entire brigades North to fight for the Union, or just hunkered down and hoped for the best.

And the so-called "Carpetbaggers" were more like Peace Corps volunteers going South to help their country.

Sure there were some bad ones, but many of them were there to help.

[Thothmes]

153. Name me one Brigade that went North to fight to fight

on the Union Side from a Confederate State.

[The Midway Rebel]

51. Because you wanted our resources, our money, our military and our manhood. n/t

happy now? :pals:

[jgraz]

148. Oh, and there was that little thing about ending your holocaust against black people

BTW, we haven't seen your manhood. Keep looking.

[JackRiddler]

165. Because the South started the war and wouldn't have stopped short of taking DC.

Further questions?

[Taverner]

200. Exactly!

[OwnedByFerrets]

29. Its fought

[October]

31. And, it's "it's" /nt

:)

[OwnedByFerrets]

47. ...

touche`:rofl:

[Mari333]

33. I have my gr grandfathers sign up certificate for the Civil War

its pretty cool. I had it framed and gave it to my oldest son.
It has Gov Richard Ogilvie's sig on it. It was his sign up in Illinois .

[Libertas1776]

35. I love little

historical bits of paraphernalia like that. It's funny how something as simple as a piece of paper like a certificate can open up a whole new door into the past. It really invigorates the interests.

[Taverner]

46. Wow!

I almost wonder how to preserve something like that

My grandma has my Great-Great-Grandfather's diary from when he settled in New Bedford, Mass....how to keep it without it deteriorating...

[Posteritatis]

48. Is there a public archives in your neck of the woods?

If so you could always ask them for any ideas. The short version is a reasonably well sealed container kept away from heat or humidty extremes with any staples/paperclips/other bits of metal kept away from it.

[struggle4progress]

49. Go find a university library that has some historical documents and

talk to one of the librarians who curates the collection

You might find somebody who's happy to talk with you and can give some useful pointers on preserving old documents

[Libertas1776]

34. Both sides

were responsible for atrocities against the other side. Although, it seems that the South has gained more notoriety. Of course, the Confederacy committed many crimes unique to only their side, such as refusing to take prisoner captured black soldiers and instead choosing to massacre them, much to the outrage of the Union. The Fort Pillow Massacre comes to mind.

[OwnedByFerrets]

37. The winner usually writes the history. I'm sure there were

enough atrocities on BOTH sides to make us all sick to our stomachs. Nothing good comes from dredging up those memories. I cant imagine taking up arms against my neighbors. But, neither would I stand by and have them torch my home because I was one of them "damn libruls". And, that it what it would come to where I live here in Alabama.

[Treo]

209. Do you realize

That your post almost exactly mirrors Lee's resignation of his commission? He didn't particularly agree W/ the South but he wasn't about to fight them either

[roguevalley]

100. also, Quantrell's raiders and the like. Jesse James had to come from

some place.

[The Midway Rebel]

125. The Souths biggest crime...

was fighting for slavery in the first fucking place. Duh.

[Brickbat]

36. Absolutely it was treason.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

42. Amazing how just the other day.....

....someone called it "The War of Northern Aggression" while defending Joe Wilson's protection of the confederate flag. Going on and on about how it was the death of freedom in this country. Amazing.

You let the racists talk, you find out how racist they are.

[kdpeters]

50. I'm a proud Georgian that thanks God every day that I was born in America

and not whatever shithole the south would have turned into had our treasonous insurrection against the USA not been quashed.

God Bless America. God damn the Confederacy.

[roguevalley]

102. the south would have been in a bad way. the union manufacturing

base and the larger number of states and population would have been overpowering to the south. Just trade wars alone would have made it hell.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

69. The far left gang raped the south?

IT'S AWWWWWWRIGHT!

[TannerBoyle]

71. I didn't say that.

I said that it's a tactic that they enthusiastically employ.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

72. But it doesn't apply to the South?

You're saying the South totally didn't get reamed?

[TannerBoyle]

73. Yes, they did.

But, I'm not saying that the Union was leaning left when they did it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

74. It was certainly left of the South.

But then again, the only thing right of the South would have been what... Nazi Germany?

[TannerBoyle]

75. No matter how much you wish it to be true...

"Right" does not automatically mean "Racist".

In terms of policies and national agendas, I'd say that the CSA had very little in common with the Third Reich.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

77. Oh, the Confederacy had much in common with Nazi Germany.

They were both tyrannies set up on the phony notion that their race was superior to other races.

That, and they were both failures that got their asses kicked.

[TannerBoyle]

79. That's two points. What else do you have?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

81. They both started the wars they got their asses kicked in.

Neither were democracies.

Have you got any substantial differences?

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

93. The south were big fans of gun control

They never let black people have any guns.

"The Nazis were largely agressors, while the CSA, for the most part, fought a defensive war against outside agression."

Like the Nazis, the South started off being aggressors, and then got their asses kicked so hard they didn't have any choice but to fight defensively.

"3. As for "neither were democracies"--well, the CSA was very much about as much a democracy as the USA was. For the most part, it was a Constitutional republic, and it's Constitution was very much like that of the USA. As for Nazi Germany, the Nazis were elected into office...and then Hitler bullied his way into his position as Chancellor."

You can't have a democracy that owns slaves. The CSA bullied themselves into power, it was treason.

"4. The Nazis were hard core racists who looked down on anyone "non-Aryan" as inferior. With the exception of negroes, white people in the CSA (including Jews) were welcome."

So it's not really hard core racism if they only hate "negroes?"

Have you actually got something that is a real difference, and not just something they have in common?

[TannerBoyle]

98. Read what I wrote more closely.

Negroes were not "citizens" of the Confederacy. They were the property of their owners. Big difference.

A Democracy can very well own slaves...if the people enslaved aren't considered human beings, but property.

The CSA believed in equality for all White men. And, in those days, that mattered.

All are major differences.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

103. "Negroes were not "citizens" of the Confederacy."

Exactly my point.

Just like Jews weren't considered Germans.

"A Democracy can very well own slaves...if the people enslaved aren't considered human beings, but property."

Only if you're of the belief that African Americans aren't really people.

"The CSA believed in equality for all White men. And, in those days, that mattered."

And that's why they were like Nazi Germany.

"All are major differences."

Those aren't major differences. They aren't even differences.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

114. You wanted them to be points, but you failed.

"You don't consider Jews to be white?"

The Germans didn't. And as long as they thought so, that's OK, right? That's your criteria. The Confederacy didn't think black people were people, and therefore that's OK, right?

[TannerBoyle]

116. I'm not talking about the Germans. I'm talking about you.

Try reading what's being typed before you respond.

It'll save time.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

118. Hey, it's your logic, I'm just taking it to the logical conclusion.

Racists starting out as the aggressor, then having to play defensive as they get their asses handed to them...

Remind you of anybody?

[TannerBoyle]

122. Obama.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

123. You mean the guy who beat the snot out of the Republicans?

Guess again.

[TannerBoyle]

130. I wouldn't say that 7 million votes counts as "beating the snot"....

...out of the Republicans.

Not everything deserves a spin.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

133. You can call it whatever you want.

It's still a shellacking whether you deny it or not.

[TannerBoyle]

135. If you say so.

The Million Man March didn't quite add up to a million, either...so who's counting?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

137. Nope.

And there weren't exactly 20 million teabaggers, were there?

[TannerBoyle]

138. I wouldn't know. I'm not a teabagger. Or a Republican.

Ask Glenn Beck.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

139. That's great.

I'm an astronaut.

Ask Charles de Gaulle.

[TannerBoyle]

141. You got the first syllable right.

[Maru Kitteh]

146. You can go now.

Tanner Boyle: All we got on this team are a buncha Jews, spics, niggers, pansies, and a booger-eatin' moron!

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:6j5zUubPmVYJ:www.imdb.com/title/tt0074174/quotes+tanner+boyle&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

[Forkboy]

162. Funniest post of the week.

:rofl:

[Thothmes]

220. Per the SCOTUS decision Scott vs. Sandford

Negros were not citizens of the United States, or could they become citizens of the United States.

[roguevalley]

108. an overblown sense of their own strength and holiness. a belief

that Europe would help them that never came to pass. a suicidal death wish. It was all over for the south after Gettysburg and if Lee had not been a dumbass in that battle and wasted an army against greater odds and poor field position, it might have gone on longer. Thank God it didn't.

[TannerBoyle]

113. "Thank God it didn't?"

You must've been one of those guys leading the school prayer for Sarah Palin.

[roguevalley]

126. yeah, thank god that it didn't. As for the Palin comment, shove it.

you wanna be an apologist for the war, fine. But stay on topic. most of your posts don't align with the topic but then disruptors seldom stay on point.

[TannerBoyle]

128. As usual....

When you realize that your argument is lost, the insults begin.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

131. Don't stutter.

[Confusious]

155. Gettysburg

How'd he screw the pooch on that one?

Success breeds arrogance?

[The Magistrate]

80. Do You Bother To Think Of What You Write, Sir?

The root ideology of the Confederacy was White Supremacy, and the absolute inferiority of another race of human beings. There was nothing else of significance to the thing. That is an extremely close fit to the Third Reich....

[TannerBoyle]

90. Not precisely.

The Nazis discriminated against most other whites as well.

The CSA didn't share in that distinction, and some of its high-level posts were held by Jews, like Judah Benjamin.

[The Magistrate]

95. No Essential Difference, Dear: Racism was the Guiding Light, Slavery the Purpose of the State

[TannerBoyle]

101. That has nothing at all to do with my response.

And...if you go by the historical record--the CSA was more interested in preserving States' rights than they were slavery.

Is that bullshit? Probably.

But, it's still the case.

[The Magistrate]

107. Nonesense, Sweetie: the Confederacy Was About Slavery, And Nothing Else

'States Rights' was simply a convenient peg to hang the hat on....

[TannerBoyle]

112. See my "Bullshit" comment for details, honey-bunch.

[Selatius]

151. The Confederacy was established on the notion that slavery should be maintained

The wealthy of the south stood to lose, in today's dollars, tens of billions of dollars worth of "assets" that they considered "property." When I say "assets" and "property," I mean slaves. Abraham Lincoln did not himself state that he wanted to abolish slavery, but that was quickly ignored in the aftermath of his election.

The elites who ran the South bolted, and they rallied the poor masses to take up guns for them by stoking the fires of nationalism and playing upon their ignorance.

[SharonAnn]

164. Hmmm, a lot like the Health Care/Insurance "debate" going on now.

The wealthy insurance companies and their minions stand to lose their "assets" (high-paying, profitable policyholders) if there are Federal regulations AND a Public Option.

They rally the poor masses to take up their cause "by stoking the fires and playing upon their ignorance.

[lumpy]

186. Yes

v

[newspeak]

173. thank you!

The wealthy plantation owners had more to lose--their assets-which means slaves. How they suckered poor white people to join in their cause--probably was the state's rights issue. Also, the South was primarily an agrarian society dependent upon a cheap workforce, thus, slavery.

I believe that England would not have come to the aid of the Confederacy, unless they made concessions of outlawing slavery. Then, where would the plantation owners be? After the Civil War, some of those plantation owners were pardoned and reclaimed their land. They found another form of slavery, called sharecropping--because many poor farmers were "screwed" by the wealthy again. Then, as african americans were making gains after the civil war (education, civil participation), here comes the KKK. Immediately after the civil war, the gains african americans made as citizens of this country, made a backward leap with compromises by politicians and wealthy southern good ol' boys.

Both sides of my family fought in the civil war--but, it was a war about greed and bigotry. To me, it is a shameful period of our past. I see nothing proud of fighting between families. When, the US still was debating slavery, Europe and Great Britain had already passed laws against it. It is not a sign of a progressive nation, but of a nation divided by avarice, brutality and ignorance.

How can Americans learn from history, when many have no interest in it?

[Confusious]

156. Read the secession papers for the states

Slavery was the reason, states rights was the excuse.

[Thothmes]

152. Which States Rights were being violated by the Federal Government

so badly,that the southern states felt that the had succeede.

[Taverner]

198. And the whole "Tropical Empire"

That's why when people argue that Kevin Wilmott's CSA was off that the South would have tried to conquer the North - I point them to the very real statement that the CSA was designed to be a Tropical Empire.

They would have taken the North, tried to take Canada, and taken Latin America.

[The Magistrate]

212. There Certainly Were Designs On Mexico, Sir

That was being bruited about even during the war....

[The Magistrate]

76. The Left Is A Pack Of Rapists, Sir? That Is Your Contribution To This Discussion, And This Forum?

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

[TannerBoyle]

78. In this case, it's simply an observation.

Unless you're one to deny the fact that the Red Army committed untold counts of enthusiastic gang rape as they stormed across Eastern Europe into Germany in 1945.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

Did the U.S. commit much systematic rape?

Because it's the American left that won the war.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

82. Did the U.S. commit much systematic rape?

Because it's the American left that won the war.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

83. Did the U.S. commit much systematic rape?

Because it's the American left that won the war.

[TannerBoyle]

91. Don't stutter.

[The Magistrate]

84. If You Are Just Trying To Appear An Ignorant Fool, Sir, You Are Doing a Most impressive Job Of It

Do you have any idea what the conduct of the Wehrmacht was in advancing into the Soviet Union?

Or are you about to claim Nazis are really leftists?

[TannerBoyle]

94. I never thought about it that way....

...but now that you mention it, the Nazis did have alot of left-leanings. :D

[The Magistrate]

97. Not Much Of a Chess-Player, Are You, Sweetie?

Your failure to answer regarding the behavior of the Wehrmacht is noted, of course....

[TannerBoyle]

104. Right back at you, sugar-booger. :D

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6581348&mesg_id=6584645

[Marr]

159. A Nazi apologist, a Confederacy apologist, and,

I assume, a Republican of some stripe. Libertarians are only Republicans who don't like church, after all.

The three fit together nicely. Birds of a feather.

[newspeak]

179. even though "socialist" might have been in the name

the Nazis did not have "left" leanings. As Hitler told the masses how he admired labor, he was murdering labor leaders. He murdered Social Democrats and other "left" leaning political foes. He asked the pope for a list of "left" leaning priests and nuns (ones who were vocal for social justice and against poverty) and had many arrested. He loved Henry Ford-had a picture of him in his office. Hearst, Ford and other corporatists exchanged letters with Hitler.

I believe Ford and wealthy families' like the Duponts admired Hitler and supported him, as he admired them. So, tell me about those left leanings. By the way, my 100% German great grandfather was a democratic socialist and hated Hitler. And what has been repeated numerous times, a quote by Mussolini, is that fascism is when government and business come together against the WILL OF THE PEOPLE.

[roguevalley]

111. we are talking about the Union and CSA armies here. If you want to

talk about the Soviets' revenge against the dumbfucks that killed 50 million of their people in a racist war for liebensraum and the like, start another thread. The soviets have nothing to do with this thread.

[TannerBoyle]

115. "Revenge against the dumbfucks that killed 50 million of their people?"

It's interesting how you'd justify the repeated gang rapes committed by advancing Soviet troops on innocent civilians just to further your argument.

[The Magistrate]

120. Not Only A Confederate Apologist But a Nazi Apologist, Then, Sweetie....

As you continue to decline to engage in any way the conduct of the Wehrmacht in the Soviet Union, it is hard to see your comments on the Red Army as anything but the latter....

[TannerBoyle]

124. Does one rape justify another?

What about the death penalty, then?

[The Magistrate]

129. Murderers Should Be Put To Death, Sweet-Heart

Asked whether evil should be repaid with good, the Master replied: "With what, then, do I repay good? Repay good with good; repay evil with correction."

[roguevalley]

121. I don't justify anything. Its you ignoring human motivation that makes

me laugh.

[TannerBoyle]

127. Actually, you did, though.

You glossed over as many as ten million gang rapes on innocent civilians as "revenge".

[The Magistrate]

132. You Know, Honey, For A Fella Who Lists 'Making amateur pornography' As His Hobby

You display an unwholesome fixation on the topic of rape....

[TannerBoyle]

134. You're looking up my profile? LOLOLOLOLOL!

I can just see you, twitching in your chair...

"I'm gonna get that Tanner! I'm gonna get him on SOMETHING!"

:D

[The Magistrate]

140. Just Part Of the Death-Watch, Sweet-Heart....

Which is all this is by now.

[TannerBoyle]

142. The only things weaker than insults are veiled threats.

[The Magistrate]

143. If You Say So, Dear....

Sometimes there are gaps in the coverage, and things take longer than usual.

[Confusious]

157. How'd you get 10 million?

The entire population of Russia was 135 million. How'd they have time to fight? They must be super-men.

[Taverner]

201. Germany Gangraped their country, the Soviets went and Gangraped Germany

Tit for tat

Horrible, but reality

[roguevalley]

105. wow. you need to read a few books. try shelby and others. truly.

[Wiley50]

144. My Great Grand Uncle, Foghorn Leghorn, called it "The War Of Northern Aggression" till His Dying Day

Of Course, His Dyin' Day was Rolled in 13 Secret Herbs and Spices

and boiled in hot oil by that dastardly Kentuckian Colonel Sanders

[Greyhound]

147. Like nearly all of them, fighting this war was a huge mistake.

Who in their right mind believes that you can force a person, community, or state to be an ally at the point of a gun?

[Tim01]

158. Lincoln liberated the blacks and the Native Americans. nt

[Lagomorph]

160. The Union had their own version of Andersonville

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Douglas_%28Chicago%29

According to the History Channel documentary, the commander before Sweet imposed the following harsh conditions: 3oz daily meat portions, sitting naked in the winter, crippling sittings on a sawhorse device, and beating or shooting of those trying to circumvent food rations — even, for example, to punish the eating of snow.

[Name removed]

169. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

172. You Know, Fella, Once You Link To A Holocaust Denial Site, You Pretty Much Forfeit The Argument

Referring to the droppings of a recently expelled troll as presenting a sound view of moral complexities does not much help you, either....

[Texasgal]

166. What exactly is DU's facination

with the Civil War? I don't get it. :shrug:

[jgraz]

168. Maybe the fact that the southern right wants to start another one has something to do with it.

[Texasgal]

170. I've lived in Texas all of my life

and no one... including grandparents, great aunts... uncles never talked about it. Ever. :shrug:

[tammywammy]

176. Me either n/t

[jgraz]

177. Well, there's this obscure Texan who's been calling for secession recently

What was his name? Oh right: RICK PERRY.

[The Magistrate]

178. Is That The Governor There, Sir? The Governor's Name Is Rick Perry, Is It Not?

[Texasgal]

181. and uhh...Most Texans polled didn't agree

with perry's statements.

I certainly don't and I don't know a single person who does.

Again. :shrug:

[Name removed]

183. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Texasgal]

184. why are you being so rude?

Was that really necessary?


Do you feel better now? Got that warm fuzzy feeling do ya?

Jesus... fuck this... Forget I ever posted to you. Christ! :eyes:

[jgraz]

185. I dunno... maybe your sarcastic response had something to do with it?

When you start out a post with "and uhh..." you're not really leading with diplomacy. If you set the tone, you don't get to whine about the results.

[Selatius]

187. +1. Never fired the first shot nt

[jgraz]

207. Oof. Well played.

:rofl:

[Name removed]

180. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Texasgal]

182. I guess.. kind of weird if you ask me.

I'll never understand it.

[Thothmes]

218. Offers almost unlimited opportunities to bash those folks

that live in states of the old Confederact.

[WonderGrunion]

171. Calling Lee and Jackson "domestic terrorists" really makes their heads explode

:nuke: :hide:

Whenever I hear the Civil War referred to as the "War of Northern Aggression", I quickly add in "Against Southern Slavery"

[Ilsa]

188. Starvation was a serious problem in the south after the war.

I was taught that there was cannibalism in the south in some areas due to lack of food. It doesn't surprise me that prisoners on either side were starved.

[The Magistrate]

190. Who Shined You On With That, Ma'am?

[Ilsa]

236. What do you want? I live in the south and consider

the war an act of treason by the south. War devastated farms and ranches, livestock was butchered for food, people were poor and weak. Happened all the time after a defeat.

[The Magistrate]

237. Merely Inquiring after a Source, Ma'am

For a statement extremities of famine existed, which is found in no printed history known to me over the years.

The fact is that a great deal of tosh is talked concerning the aftermath of the war in the south, to the point that one might think, if one were inattentive, that the principal feature of the time was something other than extremities of murderous intimidation against freedmen, and that those formerly masters over them were subjected to the most piteous lot of fear and suffering conceivable.

The devotees of the 'lost cause' raised self-pity to the level of high art....

[Ilsa]

239. My great great grandparents were not slave or plantation owners. They

were dirt poor folk trying to get by. They initially believed in the crap the southern politicians were selling, but ended up fighting for the Union after one in the family was shot on orders of a southern army cmdr of whatever rank. My direct ancestors were uneducated impoverished people that quickly learned not to give a damn about the South's "lost cause".

On edit: fuck the Confederacy. That's how I feel about the Civil War.

[The Magistrate]

240. There Were a Number Of Union Folk At The South, Ma'am, As There were Copperheads In the North

The division was not neatly so clean as it looks on maps.

[Taverner]

199. That is only because Southern Farmers DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO WORK THEIR OWN LAND!!!!

Of course, Sharecropping came along and tried to rival Slavery's ruthlessness.

[Uncle Joe]

203. 1. It's because the vast majority of the war was fought in the South causing great devastation.

2. It's crop growing territory was ever shrinking after the war began.

3. The South's total population was approximately a third of the North's, at 9 million with 2 million of them being African American Slaves, while a large percentage of the approximately 7 million whites, 3.5 million male whites were a way fighting the war.

4. After a couple of years most everyone in the South was at the very least hungry, shortages of all types of supplies was endemic throughout the South particularly as the Union Blockade became more effective over time and Southern Ports fell. After a time the South couldn't feed it's own soldiers.

[The Magistrate]

206. The Figures Familiar To Me, Sir, Are Five Millions Of Whites And Four Millions Of Negroes

The Confederacy's difficulties in feeding soldiers owed to problems of transportation, rather than lack of food itself. Confederate forces operated mostly on the periphery of its territory rather than in the interior, and had to draw on local supplies in fought-over locales. Union forces mostly were supplied efficiently enough by rail in these regions. Operations in Virginia were something of an exception for the Confederacy in terms of supply, but by 1864 conditions of near siege for the field army, and the depredations of Gen. Sherman in the prime agricultural regions, enforced a hunger regime there.

[Uncle Joe]

208. Yes sir, I partially agree with you in that transportation was more primitive in the South

and a contributing factor to Confederate Soldier hunger and also in that raiding parties from both armies took resources from the locals and or damaged/disrupted transportation as in the union capture of the "General" locomotive and damage to long stretches of rail.

However all of these conditions you listed along with the ones I posted had an adverse cumulative affect which led to general want and hunger even with most of the civilian population throughout the region, all supplies deteriorated or disappeared to support the war effort.

As for population figures, 7 millions whites and 2 million blacks are the figures I'm most familiar with, although I could be wrong.

[The Magistrate]

210. It Is True Enough, Sir, that the Losing Side Winds Up Lean

But the tale above of wide-spread starvation in the wake of the war has been conspicuously absent from my years of reading on the topic.

[The Midway Rebel]

211. And the correct answer is....

Border states included, according to 1860 census data, nearly 4 million enslaved souls held under human bondage.

What do we have for our losers, Johnny?



I do not care to meet the person who for any reason thinks that this was a good thing.

I try not to call them slaves myself because I feel the term is dehumanizing. I prefer the term, the enslaved people.

But, if it is easier for some folks to believe that people in the South are all confederate apologist cannibals that do not know how to work their own land, knock yourselves out. Just wait and see if you get any fresh vegetables out of my garden.

edited for grammar

:patriot:

[Lagomorph]

231. Not everyone was a rich slave owner. Not even most.

After the war, many of the South's farmers were still laying on the battlefields. For those who went home, there was no government relief or food stamps, you worked or you starved. After the war, the freed slaves and the poor rural southerners were pretty much in the same boat. The main difference was that the blacks could no longer be sold as livestock.

Then there was that whole "scorched-earth" thing. After laying waste to a wide swath of Georgia, then marching into South Carolina, the "Birthplace of the Confederacy", Union Army soldiers, mostly on their own, thoroughly destroyed their infrastructure. Once they tore up the railroads, it took months and even years to restore them. Plenty of time to get hungry.

Yes, there was starvation, not everywhere, but not all that isolated.

[Treo]

215. Hate is NOT a family value

My good God the U.S. Civil War (by definition it wasn’t) ended 144 years ago. There’s not a single slave, Union soldier, or Southern soldier left alive but it appears that hate is still alive and well out there at the far-left extreme. How many of you that are ready to march through Georgia again to avenge slavery are doing anything about the slaves held in the Sudan right now? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6455365.stm .

The war's over folks let it go

[The Magistrate]

216. Marching Through Georgia, Sir?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78Q8jmGryKg

[Uncle Joe]

217. The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down, Sir.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnS9M03F-fA

[The Magistrate]

219. Though Modern, Sir, that Is A Fine Tune, And Ms. Baez' Version Its Best By far

[Treo]

222. Ooo Oooo Can I play?

And don't call me sir I work for a living

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnhKpdgHSO8

[The Magistrate]

223. Not With That Wretch, Sir, You Cannot: Now If It Were The Old man, that Would Be Different....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcIgQWdWWag

[Treo]

224. H8R NT

[Treo]

225. Try this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uXUtvkmSfE

[The Magistrate]

226. A Little Better, Sir, But Not Really In the Spirit Of the Exercise: Perhaps This Will Serve You, Eh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PS7Y4XszJyg

[Treo]

227. You do know the original Bonnie Blue Flag had nothing to do W/ the CSA right? NT

[The Magistrate]

229. From A Failed Bit Of Filibustering Before The 1812 War, In Spanish Land, Sir

If recollection serves, anyway: there was a good deal of hole and corner business down there shortly after the Louisiana Purchase, and it does not all stick in my mind anymore.

It was the first secesh flag of Mississippi, though, and heaven knows people sang the thing. The song is not a post-bellum concoction, which, of course, 'Marching Through Georgia' is....

[Treo]

230. A slightly different version was sung in John Wayne's The Horse Soldiers

And FWIW I fully support the right of each individual state to leave the Union if circumstances truly warrant

[The Magistrate]

232. Not Much Of a Fan Of The Old Poseur, Sir, And Do Not Recall the Movie You Mention

The Confederacy was an act of treason and rebellion, pressed to maintain slavery, the ownership of another human being on exactly the same terms one would own a mule, the classification of owner and owned being determined by race. That is the sum and substance of it; everything else is window dressing, and damned thin curtains at that.

[Treo]

235. I didn't say anything about the Civil War

I said I support the right of each state to leave the Union if circumstances truly warrant. I think all this posturing about a war that's been over for a century and a half is ridiculous. It's done, it's over, the dead are dust. let's move on.

[Blue_Tires]

233. Error: you can only recommend threads which were...

yeah, yeah....