I think this is scary: My brother just received a citation in the mail from

[gateley]

the local police department's "Community Traffic Watch Program". The "volunteer" stated he was doing 41mph in a 25mph zone.

Remind you of anything? "Good citizens" helping enforce the law? I find this very disturbing. :scared:

Another (very tony) community has installed cameras that monitor every vehicle entering the area and immediately runs the plate to see if there are any outstanding warrants. Bill Gates lives in that enclave, but I'm sure he's got his own very capable security detail.

[JeanGrey]

1. Automatic citations from cameras have been around for

quite sometime. They have caught both of my sons running red lights.

[enlightenment]

2. This sounds a little bit different, though.

As if there is someone - a 'volunteer' - armed with a detector. A bit strange.

[JeanGrey]

15. That is weird and I've never heard of such a thing.

It would take some guts to do that, I'd be afraid to!

[gateley]

22. Sorry - I put two "stories" in the post. The citation is a result of a "good citizen"

ratting on my brother. Actually taking the time to notify the Police Department.

[gmoney]

35. Could be one of those parked "Your Speed" things?

Maybe it clocks every car going down a street (they do that around her on residential streets that, although they're high traffic, are still technically 25 MPH), and some busy body was there taking down plates and the "speed" readings.

I'm sure if he goes to court, he can probably have it thrown out. I guess one old trick is to ask for the officer who calibrated the instrument to appear, and when he fails to do so, the judge may throw it out. He might want to read up on that though...

[imdjh]

37. Yeah, I read about it the other day. It's like neighborhood watch with radar.

I don't know if the goal is to actually slow people down or to make them desensitized to seeing suspicious cars with technology on the side of the road.

Freaky are those cop cars with the plate readers mounted on the trunk.

I wish I was in the business of selling those plate covers that obscure the plate.

[Solomon]

73. I still don't like the automatic cameras.

Does something to the psyche. I don't like the feeling of home imprisonment. There's a psychic cost to those things.

It's not so much the fact of the money of the ticket as the feeling of an invasion of privacy.

[Synnical]

3. And the legality of cameras is still being hashed in the court system n/t

[JeanGrey]

16. Well whatever happens I doubt they'll get a refund.

[Stinky The Clown]

4. They just talked about this on our local 6.00 nooz

Seems they wanna arm our citizens with speed guns and a direct line to the local constabulary.

How soon until some yahoo, sporting a yellow safety vest, is reduced to an oil lick on the road by a drunk or some moron with a lead foot and a cell pone?

[condoleeza]

8. There was a story on this on NPR yesterday, most cities contract out to private contractors

to provide the cameras and monitor them and I can only imagine they get a "percentage" of the take. No worries of fraud there....

People shouldn't be blowing through red lights or speeding, and it's been proven that the "locals" who are aware of the cameras and would be the most likely to be in the neighborhood all the time, are the first to slow down, but this is a bit too big brother for me, having independent contractors in charge.

[PSPS]

21. Yes, the camera contractor does get a "cut of the take"

I don't know who's profiting specifically on the Medina "Traffic Scameras" but if it's like the red light scam, there are about five national contractors with whom jurisdictions sign contracts. The private company then sets up the scameras and the contract allows them to take a flat fee for each citation issued -- usually around $50 each.

The scameras are all about revenue generation, not safety.

[condoleeza]

75. Gee, why am I not surprised n/t

[imdjh]

38. Maybe someone will shoot one of them. That would be a shame.

[Dr_Willie_Feelgood]

51. Along with insurance company execs, anti-choicers, and...

...about 200 million other people who don't strictly share our opinions!

There's no problem that cannot be solved by an expeditious and volumnous application of firepower!

Forget education and conversation. Death and destruction - THAT'S the progressive way!

:sarcasm:

WOW it saddens and scares me HOW MANY PEOPLE on here advocate violence!

[imdjh]

59. i could almost hear you whine in that post

[RagAss]

54. LOL !

[LisaM]

The Medina thing is scary

however, here's a question: was your brother doing 41 in a 25 zone? Because a speed limit that low implies that it is a residential area and kids might have been playing. We live on a 25 mph DEAD END street. Almost everyone has a pet, and there are five little kids who like to play outside (we don't have a sidewalk). Cars roar down the dead end all day long. I do not wish those people well and if there is a place I can call in to turn them in, I'll do it.

[bertman]

9. I agree that there should be Police patrols or speed traps when certain zones are being

sped through by the oblivious, but here we're talking about a non-law enforcement person being able to cause a citation to be issued.

I'd say this is legally dead and will be dismissed in court, but it's frightening that this tactic is being used.

[gateley]

25. It's not even going to court, and it says if he's no longer the registered owner,

to disregard the notice.

I get the impression -- but we really don't know -- that somebody, just a fellow motorist, "told" on my brother, who wasn't even there at the time!

Maybe it was somebody my brother flipped off at one time or another (not that he does it, often) trying to get revenge?

I don't THINK there's like a volunteer "force" -- more like calling a number if you see someone throwing litter out of their car window (we have that, too).

[gateley]

23. The crazy thing is, my brother was at work at the time -- and had been for over

two hours!

I understand your situation -- but this is a different thing altogether. He doesn't even know where the street is that's mentioned in the notice!

[uppityperson]

67. That is wild, sounds like a grudge thing. can he find out who "volunteer" is?

[gateley]

24. How'd you know it was Medina, by the way? Friend of Bill? :-) nt

[OffWithTheirHeads]

5. Welcome to our Brave New World citizen.

Now shut up and obey!

I've seriously got to get the fuck out of here.

[Canuckistanian]

6. No, no, no. This shit has got to be stopped

There's enough problem with COPS abusing the system to railroad people.

Using "volunteers" (presumably UNPAID and largely UNTRAINED) to enforce the law is unacceptable.

[Selatius]

7. Where I live, the state legislature recently banned all traffic cameras in the state.

So I don't have to worry about traffic cameras for now. The other thing, "good citizens," is another thing to worry about, though.

[Chemisse]

11. Good! The idea of those cameras really creeps me out.

My daughter got a ticket because of one. She was really upset because the light was yellow as she entered it and it turned red as she was going through the intersection.

Frankly, I do that all the time. Sometimes it's hard to tell if you have time to stop or not. That's why there is a little delay on the green lights.

I think if they are going to use cameras it should be a blatant red light run. The light should be red as you enter the intersection.

[imdjh]

39. They should do more than creep you out- they should piss you off. Bush connections.

The company that runs the cameras has Bush connections. IN nearly every place they have been used, corruption is the way they got in, and they always turn out badly. They are good for nothing other than generating revenue, and not even for the municipality.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

60. No, but you do have to worry about traffic accidents.

People are not very much more likely to hit you at 40mph than at 30. But if you're hit at 30 your odds of dying are about 1 in 5, whereas at 40 they're more like 4 in 5.

Traffic cameras really do save lives, and the only people they inconvenience are those who break the law in ways that put others at risk.

[Selatius]

63. People run red lights regardless if there are traffic cameras.

It has been and continues to be a problem in states with traffic cameras like Florida. Seat belts save lives, probably more so than traffic cameras. It is probably more than a coincidence that rates of car accident fatalities have plummeted due to the proliferation of mandatory seatbelt laws, air bags, and updated federal safety standards for cars.

[MattBaggins]

64. FOR THE CHILDREN

you forgot to throw in "for the children"

[Donald Ian Rankin]

66. "For the statistics" is closer. N.T.

[Go2Peace]

77. Actually, studies have been done and they DO NOT reduce accidents!

In fact they increase more serious accidents and change the type of accidents (more rear end etc).

[Robb]

10. Out West, we have a uniquely rural solution to speeding traffic.

[Libertas1776]

33. .

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Hawkeye-X]

72. Where is that?

[Robb]

80. IIRC

It's out near some oil rig in Mesa County or thereabouts. :hi:

[Ozymanithrax]

12. Can the volunteer proove that he was speeding.

Police are prepared to prove speeding, either with a radar or equipment in the vehical. What equipment did the community informer (sorry volunteer) have to prove yo broke the law?

I am not opposed to red light camears. It is hard to argue with a picutre of the driver, the license plate, and the light. San Diego had probems with theirs until the timeing on the redlight cameras was lengthened.

[MineralMan]

13. In most of these places, the volunteers do have radar.

It's insidious.

[Ozymanithrax]

14. Challenge them in court...

Make them show how they are qualified to use the equipment. Demand to show where they get their legal authorization to act as police officers.

[TxRider]

17. Or you could just slow down and obey the law

And not have to worry about such things.

[ohheckyeah]

19. You're a good little citizen. n/t

[LanternWaste]

43. Better an over-dramatized

Better an over-dramatized "good little citizen" than parking in a handicap sport, yes?

[Forkboy]

27. Isn't that the point? Maybe the person wasn't speeding in the first place.

[gateley]

29. My brother was at work at the time. He begins at 6:30am and the CRIME

occurred at 8:15am, but nice of you to judge him, nonetheless. :eyes:

[MrsMatt]

53. you didn't mention that until AFTER TxRider posted

nice you you to judge him/her, nonetheless.

[TxRider]

69. He's got an alibi then, no sweat.

[truedelphi]

44. I was thinking that thought myself

Could be that the person who went after the 41 MPH driver is tired of having to dash across a busy commuter street while left and right, no drivers are obeying the law. Commuters don't seem to understand that the neighborhood that they "commute" through" has people with their pets and kids who very much want to stay alive.

[FSogol]

52. +1 n/t

[uppityperson]

68. maybe you missed the post that said the brother was at work at the time

wasn't driving down a street that he didn't know where it was, but was at work. Maybe you missed that post.

[TxRider]

70. Too bad it wasn't in the OP...

[FSogol]

79. Where does it say that?

"the local police department's "Community Traffic Watch Program". The "volunteer" stated he was doing 41mph in a 25mph zone.

Remind you of anything? "Good citizens" helping enforce the law? I find this very disturbing. :scared:

Another (very tony) community has installed cameras that monitor every vehicle entering the area and immediately runs the plate to see if there are any outstanding warrants. Bill Gates lives in that enclave, but I'm sure he's got his own very capable security detail"

Nope, doesn't say that anywhere.

[johnaries]

18. And will he be allowed to face his accuser in court? nt

[Motown_Johnny]

20. I am against vigilantes, but I am very very pro security camera

next time you see a search for a missing child that needs to depend on the video from a gas station or ATM you should ask yourself it that child might be safe right now if only we had public security cameras that the police could use to see exactly what happened.

[gateley]

30. The camera story and my brother's incident are two different things -- I'm sorry

I didn't make that clear in the OP. (I just got carried away with the Big Brother theme.)

That being said, the cameras are another instance of a technology that can be so helpful and positive, but the potential is there for misuse. (Especially in the Bush/Cheney climate.)

[lib2DaBone]

26. It's all about money... Cities are broke..they have to write tickets to pay the cops..

[gateley]

31. He wasn't ticketed. I don't think there was radar involved, just somebody

who said he was going too fast == but he wasn't even there at the time!

[roody]

28. I find it scary that he is going 41

in a 25 mph zone. I am the pedestrian trying to have a nice walk with my dog.

[gateley]

32. I find it scary that you assume the assertion is true with no other information

to go on. My brother begins work at 6:30am, this supposedly took place at 8:15am, so you and your dog are safe. :eyes:

[beevul]

34. An interesting weapon to use against cameras (slightly OT)

Dunno if it works, but its sure neat if it does.

[Odin2005]

36. Maybe your friend shouldn't have been speeding.

Maybe that's just my Asperger's Syndrome showing, but the traffic laws are LAWS, not guide-lines. You are supposed to follow them all the time and not just when you thinks cops are around.

[gateley]

46. Maybe you didn't read the OP -- it was my brother, not a friend. And that

wasn't the point of the post, anyway -- it was about fellow citizens ratting on each other, smacks of Hitler's Germany. There was no radar, no duly appointed watchdog, no ticket. Just someone phoning in the 'evidence'.

What is really odd is that he wasn't even there -- he'd already been at work for two and a half hours.

But don't let that cloud your condemnation of him. Hope I never have you sitting on my jury. :eyes:

[Kickin_Donkey]

74. Maybe you should read through the thread ...

That's the common-sense thing to do before commenting and being a self-righteous jagoff.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

40. Simple enough to go to court and find out who the volunteer was, he'll have to testify.

I think that in an of itself might dissuade him from volunteering in such a manner.

[Raejeanowl]

41. Perspective

If you lived on a 30mph semi-rural residential road, without sidewalks, lots of hidden driveways, lots of children and wildlife, mailboxes and school bus stops on the opposite side, that regularly sees 50-60mph through traffic (as I do), you'd have an entirely different take on surveillance cameras to catch speeders when the cops themselves can't be here to enforce the law.

[SmileyRose]

49. we have a spot like that near me.

A heavily traveled road - everyone knows the right lane eventually is right turn only. The cars in the straight lane are practically sealed to each other's butts because they are sick of people shooting down the right to get ahead in the line and then use that quarter of an inch between bumpers. It'a 25 zone full of a mishmash of hidden driveways and people pulling out of businesses and walkers on the sidewalks inches from the roadway and bicycles - but people fly down through there at 60mph. 2 people have been killed in the last 3 years. Honestly, if the police were willing to loan me a portable version of their dash cam, I'd gladly volunteer to sit out there and get their damn asses on camera.

[alarimer]

55. But "volunteers" clearly are not good enough, if they manage to catch someone who was at work

at the time of the alleged offense, which the OP has mentioned several times.

I think the point here is not the speeding, which if he had actually been the person guilty of it, he would have paid the fine.
But it was some volunteer informant or contractor of some kind who cannot even manage to get the license plate correct to get the right person.

Which is yet another reason why eye-witness testimony is shit. People cannot be trusted to remember things correctly. In this case, they cannot even write down the correct license plate number or address, assuming they simply sent it to the wrong person.

The other possibility is that this is some kind of criminal scam, in which the "good citizen" sends people fake tickets, hoping some people will actually send in the find to the address on the back.

[BBG]

42. Seattle has loaner radar guns...

As part of the traffic calming in Seattle if a neighbor reports trouble with speeders in the neighborhood they can borrow a radar gun to make their own measurements. The default speed limit in Seattle is 25 on residential streets and 30 on arterials. You can read more about the traffic calming process and how your relative apparently met Step 4 – Neighborhood Speed Monitoring at http://www.cityofseattle.net/transportation/ntcp_calming.htm

[gateley]

47. It occurred in Kirkland -- and he (my brother) had actually been at work

for two and a half hours when this supposedly happened, and he works in Seattle!

That's interesting about the loaner radar guns -- I didn't know that. I'm all for trying to stop people speeding on residential streets (or speeding anywhere, for that matter) but it sure sounds like that's what happened if they have the same program in Kirkland, and if it had actually been my brother. Mistake on the license number, maybe? :shrug: Maybe that's why they don't send a ticket.

[paulsby]

45. actually not

it's hunt's point that has the cameras and bill gates lives in nearby medina.

they are seperate cities.

they are policed by the same agency (medina PD) because hunt's point contracts with the city of medina for police services.

but only hunt's point has the camera system at entry/exit points. not medina.

[gateley]

48. Actually yes. Medina has the cameras now, too -- Link:

Cameras keep track of all cars entering Medina
Cameras installed at Medina intersections monitor every vehicle coming into the city. The cameras capture all license-plate numbers, in a crime-prevention measure that one council member says "outweighs concern over privacy."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2009873854_medina16m.html

[paulsby]

81. i stand corrected

thx for that.

i was wrong, medina now has those cameras TOO!

cheers!

[gateley]

83. They just implemented it -- or just reported on it in the Times in any event.

I didn't hear about it on any of the local radio or TV news shows, so it wasn't a BIG STORY.

[Greyhound]

50. Sure brought the authoritarians out, didn'tcha?

Assumption of guilt is one of this great nation's founding principles...

Oh, wait a minute...

[gateley]

58. Yeah, no kidding -- will I ever learn? I even posted a thread on it

but they locked it. :7

LOVE that pic of Dennis and Elizabeth!! :hi:

[alarimer]

56. He should call the police to make sure this is an actual citation.

There is a possibility that this is a scam. And if he can prove he was at work at the time, it should be dismissed, if it is real.

[Gman2]

57. There are many uncon. schemes now, I was ticketed for lane splitting

Asked the cop his philosophy, cuz lane splitting is NOT illegal. WEnt to court, expecting to win. The judge heard me, and I want off, told how having moto cops on foot, on a corner, every day, using corrupt practices, is asking to get them hurt. He needed fifeteen minutes after me for a recess. I was the first to talk, alone, in a group of myself, cuz I am handicapped. Guilty. I appealed. The AG took them apart. They were scolded to ? degree. The judges are in cahoots. The worst part of all this is that they are just fleecing us. What about the poor, or the guy that depends on driving for a living? This corruption is not penny annie. And it stems from the extralegal stances of the last admin. WE are just wallets.

The red light cameras were set to scam in OC. Judge shut them down for a year and a half. I think we should have kids shoot out the lenses. The companies would pull the program immediately. It aint even gov property. The cameras increase rearenders. Guys screech their brakes, to avoid the 300+ ticket that might ruin them. Guy behind hits them. Accidents actually increase in areas. Oh well, they are intended to increase revenue, not increase safety.

[Greyhound]

62. SoCal is notorious. I used to call it the "living in LA tax".

I once got a parking ticket downtown, went to court with proof that my car was locked in a secure garage and that I was out of town the whole week, and the judge still made me pay.

I just stopped paying them and eventually left the state.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

65. Portland Oregon is worse,

Those fuckers will tow your car from your own driveway to meet their quota.

[blues90]

82. some of these cameras and parking police are out there.

For quite sometime in the LA calif area the parking tickets are a scanned time and stamp thing. I once stopped on a side street in West Hlwd and staying in the car with the engine running while my wife got out to locate as address on a building at night. The parking guy came up and said you cannont park here and I said I was waiting not parking and he told me to move so I went around the block and pulled over in another stop so my wife could find me . Then I see the parking guy pull up behind me and then a week later I get a ticket in the mail for $60 and another paper for a court date to fight the ticket both went to a different address. They said they never got the one to fight the ticket both mailed on the same day and I was not parking , the signs did not say no standing or stopping just no parking that means you leave the car and walk off .

I then got a red light ticket years later and I watch red lights , don't even run yellow lights I haven't had a ticket in the 29 years I've lived here. I went to fight that one and you pay the $350 first and are told you don't see the judge again but the guy who looks at the camera photo. I know I did not run a red light , I look always. That camera caught me amost through the intersection when the light did turn red , I went back and timed the yellow to red and it was 1.2 seconds , I saw green as I entered but you can't see the camera after you are in the other side of a wide four lane road . They told me it was measured in nano seconds and my stop watch was no good.
Now I am red light camera gun shy and so many times almost got rear ended because I stop as soon as it turns yellow I don't trust timing them.

Yes people run red lights but give me a break there needs to be a better system that allows time through an intersection not trigger when you are in and almost through the damn thing .

[Vinca]

61. He should take it to court and have the "volunteer" prove

they are trained on the radar or whatever device they used to measure his car's speed. I've never heard of tickets being given out that originated with "volunteers."

[uppityperson]

71. I agree that having anonymous "neighbors" reporting each other is creepy

Esp since your bro can prove he was at work when he was supposedly speeding. Let's watch each other and report on each other! Maybe we can make troops of youngsters to keep an eye on things and report as they see fit?

[Deja Q]

76. Cam'rom doesn't snitch either

Now ask why some neighborhoods are rife with crime... creeps like him aren't bothered to clean the place up and, worse, people like him are "role models".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh2LI3r7KlU

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/19/60minutes/main2704565.shtml

Of course, a speeding ticket is another issue, but 25MPH zones are - in many states - set that low in residential or school areas where children are present. Doing 41MPH is just ASININE a thing to do in such areas.

Who's Bill Gates? Sounds like a total stranger to me...

[bridgit]

78. ^