jasi2006
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Sat Sep-19-09 09:45 AM
Original message |
Pardon me, but i don't think not knowing who the first Pres was |
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is important to educating our children. I am more concerned about whether or not our children can read and read with understanding, think and think critically, reason, count and perform basic math problems, know the principles of democracy and know when they are actually being practiced as opposed to being preached; have powers of discernment and can use them to tell when they are being lied to or fooled in some other way; know and understand compassion and practice, know and understand oppression and don't practice it; know and understand and practice the principles of kindness, fairness, tolerance, and peacmaking. I realy don't care if they know who was the first President of the US but I do want them to know who were the last five Presidents whose policies directly affect their lives. None of that bullshit that the media is talking about is or was of any value in finding and keeping a job, taking care of a family. They are making too big a deal out of the number of kids who don't know George Washington was the first President.
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Donnachaidh
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Sat Sep-19-09 09:49 AM
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1. “Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it” |
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In order to keep the fascists from gaining control - it IS important to know history. And pointing out that too many children do not know who the first president is reflects on just how BAD our education system is - thanks to Republicans.
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Blue_In_AK
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Sat Sep-19-09 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #1 |
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The first thought in my mind, as well. Being "old school," I think I received a pretty fair education in history during my youth, but there is so much more that could have been taught. For kids not even to be taught the basics of American history seems really negligent to me.
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blondeatlast
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Sat Sep-19-09 09:53 AM
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2. It ALL matters.It's important to know George Washington because it gives great perspective on WHY |
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the United States came to be and the principles that the nation were founded upon. that perspective is desperately needed now after the last 9 years.
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hobbit709
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Sat Sep-19-09 09:53 AM
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3. It's important to know. |
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If you don't know that then you don't know how we got there in the first place.
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dbonds
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Sat Sep-19-09 09:54 AM
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4. They should know it was John Hanson |
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http://www.marshallhall.org/hanson.htmlHistory is important. It gives everything context. Without history one wouldn't know socialist from fascist.
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billyclem
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Sat Sep-19-09 12:25 PM
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30. YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA |
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Thank you.
I felt like doing this but I was certain that a dogpile would occur. Even here on DU the Articles Of Confederation are probably little known. Most will probably call Hanson and the others minor or insignificant due to the length of time served or lack of historical reference to accomplishment; but, dammit it is our history and it was a time of great change and these men did our country a great service.
:patriot:
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Gidney N Cloyd
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Sat Sep-19-09 09:55 AM
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5. Students get force-fed some unimportant bs but this isn't among it. |
Silent3
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Sat Sep-19-09 09:55 AM
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6. Critical thinking can't take place in a vacuum. |
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Kids need to BOTH have critical thinking skills AND know some basic facts about their own history and the world they live in.
Besides the pathetic ignorance, in and of itself, of not knowing George Washington was the first US President, it's a huge indicator that very little education of any type must be getting through to a kid who doesn't know that, if such a basic fact remains elusive.
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Klukie
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Sat Sep-19-09 09:57 AM
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7. From a critical thinking aspect ..... |
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not knowing a simple answer to a simple question is a basis from which to judge the lack of basic standards used to help a society obtain knowledge, reason, and understanding. In other words, it has nothing to do with the answer to the question, but everything to do with the inability to know the answer to the question.
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peekaloo
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Sat Sep-19-09 09:57 AM
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8. It's the one area where pics of Barbara Bu$h serve a purpose. |
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Hey kids do not confuse this person with our first President.
Okay. Also encourages them to eat oatmeal.
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Bandit
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Sat Sep-19-09 09:58 AM
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9. This is a joke.... Right? |
blondeatlast
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Sat Sep-19-09 10:04 AM
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10. Who is "they"? As in, "They" are making too big a deal of it? Please, don't post and run, btw. nt |
JitterbugPerfume
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Sat Sep-19-09 10:07 AM
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cwydro
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Sat Sep-19-09 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #11 |
BuyingThyme
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Sat Sep-19-09 10:11 AM
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spanone
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Sat Sep-19-09 10:13 AM
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14. yea, that history stuff is so, like, yesterday |
Fumesucker
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Sat Sep-19-09 10:18 AM
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15. I asked my first grade and third grade granddaughters that question.. |
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They both knew it instantly, no hesitation.
If they can know who the first POTUS was, high school students should know it also.
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DCKit
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Sat Sep-19-09 10:20 AM
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16. I guarantee you they can't name the last three Presidents, let along the last five. |
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NCLB has ensured the kids are studying to pass the tests mandated under NCLB. There is no time for education or teaching values.
If you want to hear first-hand what's wrong with education, spend some time with a dedicated teacher. If you want to see the affects of NCLB, have a conversation with any public school student age 7-17. I know several kids who finished high school after NCLB was implemented and a couple who have been in since the beginning. On whole, their ignorance (in every subject) is shocking.
As to the motivation behind NCLB, educated voters generally vote (D), uneducated voters tend to vote against their own interests. Look at the Teabaggers.
From the beginning of NCLB, responsible teachers have been complaining about "teaching the test". Should we be surprised at the result?
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Bandit
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Sat Sep-19-09 10:24 AM
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17. Isn't that the state that elected Coburn and Inhofe? |
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It makes sense that highschool kids don't know the "Basics" I guess considering who their parents chose to Represent them..
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DefenseLawyer
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Sat Sep-19-09 10:26 AM
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18. But how do you feel about double negatives? n/t |
MineralMan
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Sat Sep-19-09 10:30 AM
Response to Original message |
19. Yah...you forgot the sarcasm smiley there |
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Edited on Sat Sep-19-09 10:32 AM by MineralMan
Some folks will be confused into thinking you were seriously arguing that knowing about how this country was founded, and by whom, is worthless information. :sarcasm:
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Demeter
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Sat Sep-19-09 11:10 AM
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20. There Is NO Minimum Amount of Knowledge that Will Get a Kid By |
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and any useful skill will be handy. The most important skills are critical thinking, which requires that one has some factual data to think about, and research, which requires creativity, tenacity, and a finely tuned shit detector employed in finding that data.
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TxRider
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Sat Sep-19-09 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #20 |
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That the important skills are reading and ability to comprehend it and critical thinking.
It would seem with just those skills, one could educate ones self about any other subject and acquire any skill one wanted to learn.
Which is why learning to read was illegal for so many for so long.
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TexasObserver
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Sat Sep-19-09 11:17 AM
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21. Oh, come on! If they can't learn George Washington, they can't learn "principles of democracy." |
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You're setting the bar on the ground, not simply "too low."
Knowing who the first president was, knowing when and where the constitution was written, knowing the Founding Fathers were - these are important things to know, and school is the place students should learn them.
Do you really expect kids to learn the dynamics or democratic action and not be able to learn something as simple as "the guy on the one dollar bill is George Washington, the first president"?
First, they have to master INFORMATION. Then we teach them IDEAS later.
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zoff
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Sat Sep-19-09 11:37 AM
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23. I was trying to suspend judgement ... |
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... until I read your past posts. But if you can formally link swine flu with milk, then more power. But that thing about the Fed, that's pretty left field, even for conspiracy theorists.
As to the assertion that only the last, say 5 presidents matter, let's use a math reference. It seems like your zero starts in the present and you count towards the past. If you always shift your number line every time there's a new president, do you then forget about the former number 5? Why not be like everyone else and start the presidential number line with GW, number 1?
Info about GW is burnt into a fraction of a brain cell. Kids are fond of "who was the first this or that" questions. They take these things in like a sponge takes in water. From a developmental standpoint, these tidbits of info are the easiest for little ones to remember and understand. As more and more information, things like words and numbers, are amassed, then understanding and critical thought start to take root. But the brain is like a computer, garbage in, garbage out. Nothing in, nothing out.
In conclusion, I'm tempted to ask what your favorite reading material is and doesn't that contain even some trivial stuff to support their thesis? And honestly, I don't see where you're coming from.
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Cleita
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Sat Sep-19-09 11:40 AM
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24. All immigrants must know so they can get their citizenship. Shouldn't |
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born Americans know too? In order to learn their history, children will already have had to learn those things you stipulate.
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moondust
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Sat Sep-19-09 11:40 AM
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25. You might find this factoid interesting. |
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Not a single county in Oklahoma went for the Democratic candidate for President in either 2004 or 2008. You think that represents any kind of "critical thinking," "reason," "powers of discernment," etc.? Here are the electoral maps for 2004 and 2008 by county, both completely red: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Oklahoma,_2004http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Oklahoma_Presidential_Election_Results_by_County,_2008.svg"Is our children learning?"
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gratuitous
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Sat Sep-19-09 11:48 AM
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26. It's part of what makes us Americans |
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Having a shared sense of where we've been, helping to inform the present and giving us direction for the future. While the ability to solve basic math problems helps an important part of brain development, building a narrative for the past works another important brain function. Knowing about George Washington will probably not help you find a job, but there is also value in learning for learning's sake in that a well-rounded education and a well-exercised brain pay off in a variety of ways in terms of life enrichment and personal fulfillment. Reducing every aspect of life to a dollars-and-cents priority is part of what has brought our nation to its present pretty pass.
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Aristus
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Sat Sep-19-09 11:54 AM
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27. Well, it's Oklahoma, for Pete's sake! Were you expecting intellectual giants? |
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My dad possessed measurable human intelligence, and that more than anything probably explains why he got out of there so quickly once he turned eighteen.
Oklahomans couldn't manage putting a dome on their capitol building, but they did just fine with an oil rig on capitol grounds. That says a lot right there.
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woo me with science
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Sat Sep-19-09 11:56 AM
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28. I need a smilie of someone shooting himself in the head. nt |
Name removed
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Sat Sep-19-09 12:03 PM
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Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
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ProudToBeBlueInRhody
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Sat Sep-19-09 12:35 PM
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31. Is this Sherry Stringfield? |
me b zola
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Sat Sep-19-09 12:50 PM
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32. Critical thinking is impossible when not founded in facts |
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How can one dispel the myth that the rw floats that "the US is a christian nation" when they don't have a basic understanding of the simplest of facts of our history? Not knowing basic facts is one of the largest reasons why those who peddle lunacy to rw voters/shouters are able to be effective at getting mobs to raise their fists and repeat lies. A few years ago my SIL "informed" me that Liberals were trying to take god out of the constitution. When I corrected her, that god was not in the constitution, she appeared completely confused and walked away.
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BlooInBloo
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Sat Sep-19-09 12:51 PM
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33. Gotta love Americans defending their right to be stupid. |
Motown_Johnny
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Sat Sep-19-09 12:54 PM
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34. Spoken like someone who does not know who our first president was |
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there ie more to life than the 'mechanics" of math and reading comprehension
you need to understand the world in which you live in order to put that which you read into context
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Sebastian Doyle
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Sat Sep-19-09 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #34 |
37. Or perhaps someone who would like to believe |
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that there were no Presidents before the sacred jellybean messiah himself appeared upon the earth..........
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renie408
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Sat Sep-19-09 12:54 PM
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35. Is it too much to ask that kids could have all that you mention AND know who |
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George Washington was? Why does it have to be one or the other?
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cayanne
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Sat Sep-19-09 12:55 PM
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36. History is one of the most important subjects |
emilyg
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Sat Sep-19-09 01:00 PM
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charlie
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Sat Sep-19-09 01:28 PM
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39. Good grief. What's the likelihood they have all those other fine traits when they don't know George? |
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It's boilerplate knowledge. If they slept through their school years, they'd still get it through osmosis, from culture, from TV, from the freaking portraits in the post office. Except, somehow it they missed it.
I was recently called in for jury selection. The prosecutor asked us, who was president during the Civil War? The 20-something 2 seats down didn't know. The 40-something lady next to me thought it was Thomas Jefferson. I got to be Star of the Class for a moment. What chance does some poor accused slob have with a jury that ignorant? How can anyone be sure "presumption of innocence" isn't a whole new concept to them (and judging from their responses that day, it was. Most thought voir dire was a poll on punishment for the guy)?
Not knowing Washington is an indication of wider ignorance. It'd be a rare soul who was as well rounded as you describe and didn't know our first president.
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Zodiak
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Sat Sep-19-09 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #39 |
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The Union President or the Confederate one?
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charlie
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Sat Sep-19-09 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #54 |
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Anyone who knew either would be better informed than someone who thought it was Thomas Jefferson or I Dunno.
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Junkdrawer
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Sat Sep-19-09 01:32 PM
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Toucano
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Sat Sep-19-09 01:45 PM
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42. Can anybody enlighten me? What's this all about? n-t |
Overseas
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Sat Sep-19-09 01:46 PM
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43. Yeah ! How cruel to stuff our tiny brains with useless stuff. How oppressive! |
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We can't clutter up our little brains with all those darn facts. Ouch. They could explode! And reading all those books is so boring. We could be done with school in a couple of years-- basic math, obedience training (to keep a job), homemaking, and how to share and we're all done. Then we can be free to watch more TV and have fun. Not be forced to learn about history and those way-old Founding Fathers. Who cares who's on the dollar bill, I'm not gonna be quizzed when I spend it.
Next they'll be wanting us to know how to find Japan on a map! I mean really! How very inconsequential! They might even expect students to try and spell Hiroshima. Gawd, what an oppressive move. Who cares who dropped two atomic weapons on urban populations? That was all in the dusty old past.
And that Darwin guy-- who needs him either? I mean gee whiz, when or how life began doesn't affect our daily lives much. If I can find a job and take care of my family believing the earth is 6,000 years old, well then by golly, I'm good to go!
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NNadir
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Sat Sep-19-09 01:53 PM
Response to Original message |
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It is fundemental to our responsibility as citizens to understand how our government originated.
By boys not only know who Washington is, but they have a very sophisticated understanding of Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, the whole lot.
You can really get my oldest boy - he just turned 15 - into a fine lather by discussing Andrew Jackson and James K. Polk. (He despises both of them.)
Knowing history is the responsibility of all citizens. How on earth, for instance, can one have an opinion on the courts without understanding this?
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Raineyb
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Sat Sep-19-09 02:04 PM
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45. Are you from Oklahoma? |
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Because I really can't see why you'd feel the need to make such a vociferous defense of the ignorance of High School students in the state. Your defense of this rather sad stat from the state is really weak.
I might add, people who don't know facts aren't prone to thinking for themselves as they're easily swayed by liars and charlatans. Ignorance is not your friend.
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tritsofme
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Sat Sep-19-09 02:09 PM
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46. I thought caricatures like you existed only in the nightmares of teabaggers. |
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Edited on Sat Sep-19-09 02:11 PM by tritsofme
Surely no one really believes that teaching children about the founding of our country is not important?
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Joe Chi Minh
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Sat Sep-19-09 02:14 PM
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47. I can see where you're coming from; I get your drift. But the thing is, |
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Edited on Sat Sep-19-09 02:18 PM by Joe Chi Minh
they're not mutually exclusive. In fact, not knowing who the first President was, would be indicative of a poor education, generally, and a poor education in terms of reading and writing, in particular. So, while it might seem less relevant on the face of it, it is really relevant.
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nadinbrzezinski
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Sat Sep-19-09 02:15 PM
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48. Yeah why bother learning history? |
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After all those who forget it repeat it without erring.
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uppityperson
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Sat Sep-19-09 02:27 PM
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49. Well, that goes a ways towards expalining Your "critical thinking" skills (example...) |
charlie
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Sat Sep-19-09 02:33 PM
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ohheckyeah
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Sat Sep-19-09 02:29 PM
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50. Think how stupid they will look |
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on Jay Walking when asked that question. :-)
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A-Schwarzenegger
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Sat Sep-19-09 02:32 PM
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The guy married to the First Lady, Barbara Streisand.
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blogslut
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Sat Sep-19-09 02:33 PM
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53. Here is the test, along with the percentages of correct answers |
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A majority of those children were ignorant of far more than the name of our first official President. http://www.news9.com/global/story.asp?s=11141949">link
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blondeatlast
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Sat Sep-19-09 07:38 PM
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56. Over 8 hours later and GUESS WHAT?! Jasi abandoned the thread. |
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If no one at all agreed with my stupidity, I probably would as well. :eyes:
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LWolf
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Sat Sep-19-09 07:40 PM
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57. My students always know who George Washington was when they get to me. |
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We work, gently and carefully, on all that you have decided is important.
Baby steps, and more gently, because teachers who rock the boat are at risk.
Teachers are everyone's favorite scapegoat.
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