Advice to my 15 year old son---stay away from Gang Bangs.

[trumad]

First off ---YUK!

Second---no matter if the girl consents---it's still fucking wrong in so many ways.

Third: You run a huge risk of getting accused of rape.

So in a nutshell: Walk Away kid.

[ejpoeta]

1. the thought of that makes me ill!! and definitely could end up bad....

[SharonAnn]

117. Disease? And Paternity? Child support payments for 18 years or more!

[AzNick]

189. A friend of mine was one of these girls...

A female friend of mine was like that. We never were intimate but we were pretty close and when I met her she was in a homosexual relationship and she still is. I must be a good listener, because she told me all of what she went through.

In her case, she had been abused emotionally by her strict religious parents until she had one sexual encounter while drunk (and passed out, so basically she was raped), got pregnant, married the guy at 19, because that's what her education told her to do, but her parents cut the ties anyway.

After that, apparently, it was an addiction and she simply did more and more, everything her husband wanted her to do, which involved having all his buddies over "to watch the game" (their wives had no clue) and of course a lot of alcohol was involved. Meat market atmosphere, very anti-erotic.

One day she ran away with her child, realizing things were out of hand and she met her girlfriend, realized she was actually a lesbian.

To make matters worse she realized that her husband had posted photos and videos (of course not preserving her anonymity) and she had to email every one of these webmasters, who surprisingly accepted her request to delete the material (probably something to do with not wanting the police involved, but also maybe because they simple are not all stupid). I helped her to do that, because she did not know about "whois" and knowing the personal name, telephone and address of some of these guys was also a good help.

Now I have had a few interesting experiences myself, but I would never ever accept an invite to that type of event and actually walked away when I saw things go South (so to speak) at a couple parties.

So, yes, the lady in these events may be somewhat consensual, but there is usually something off.

[Odin2005]

324. OMG, I'm so sorry what happened to your friend!

:( :cry:

[XanaDUer]

2. Jesus.

Is this common among teens nowadays?

[trumad]

3. I think it's been common for years

[Connie_Corleone]

7. Yep.

This happened several times when I was in college in the early 90s. Only one incident with two girls was reported as an assault.

In every instance I found out about, the girls were drunk.

There were unwritten rules about "don't let your friend stay over at the men's dorm by herself." OR "make sure your friend doesn't do something stupid if they are drinking."

[pitohui]

125. if she's drunk, it's RAPE, no ifs, ands, or buts

a drunk/high/passed out girl can't give consent

a drunk isn't giving consent

you're raping her

even if you're 15

even if you're filming it on your cell phone

what the hell is the matter w. people?

[harkadog]

129. What do you mean by "drunk" or "high"

Someone who is passed out is one thing but are you suggesting that anyone who has been drinking or doing some weed can't have sex without it being rape? That's just crazy.

[pitohui]

134. you can't even drive a car if you're drunk, you can't give informed consent to sex w. a gang

baby, i'm not the crazy person here


they don't call it "impaired" because it doesn't affect your brain!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

147. So someone with a BAC of .06 couldn't consent to sex?

[Hello_Kitty]

162. You're a fucking MEDIC and you can't tell when someone is intoxicated? eom

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

165. I would argue it would be difficult for anyone to identify a person with a BAC of .06 in a group.

2 beers in 30 minutes to the average person would result in a BAC of .06.

[Hello_Kitty]

170. Don't be obtuse.

BAC .06 is not going to get most people falling down drunk, blacked out, or passed out. And while you can technically get a DUI with a very low BAC, most people who get them blow a .14 or higher. That's according to a DUI task force officer I know.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

173. Why the ridiculous response to my question? Nice knee jerk reaction.

[Hello_Kitty]

182. Because it pisses me off when people make excuses for rape.

Splitting hairs over minor details and red herrings do not change the fact that having sex with a person too drunk or high to give you consent is rape.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

186. Wow could you be more dishonest? Who made an excuse for rape?

It would seem to me to be a reasonable person standard. If a reasonable person would have seen that the victim was to intoxicated to give consent then a charge would be prudent. Of course considering that often both parties are intoxicated the reasonable person standard may not be the best measure.

[Hello_Kitty]

198. In my observation, based on personal experience and several years in the military

When "both parties are intoxicated" one of them is often waaaaaay more intoxicated than the other. The guys I was stationed with would brag about plying women with liquor to get in their pants. Somehow, they always remembered all the events of the night but the women rarely did.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

201. That often seems to be the case when rape is alleged. Difficult to prosecute though.

[Hello_Kitty]

209. Very difficult, and women rarely press charges. eom

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

213. Very true.

I had a fiance and a girlfriend who were both raped. Neither reported it.

[Name removed]

260. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ourbluenation]

360. come on now. n/t

[Odin2005]

332. Gee, I wonder WHY they are hard to prosecute?

Might it be a little thing called misogynistic blaming of the victim? "It was your fault because you got drunk you stupid slut!!!"

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

413. Of course, blacking out, poor recall of events don't help matters.

[ZombieHorde]

304. At the bare minimum, what point is someone too high or drunk to give consent?

[LisaL]

306. There is nothing about blood alcohol level in the law,

unlike the laws for drunk driving. I sincerely doubt, however, that it means that is someone drinks a glass of wine or a beer, they are therefore unable to consent to sex.

[ourbluenation]

345. If they are short and skinny and drink it fast. You bet.

But let me tell you as a sexual assault advocate, many DA's won't take these cases for a lot of reasons besides having to prove a crime was committed because someone may or may not be drunk. may or may not have been just tipsy. May or may not have consented. There's so much grey area that they often just don't take them on unless they have a really determined victim/witness.


If you have sex when you are drunk and feel that you were raped call law enforcement asap and DO NOT SHOWER OR CHANGE YOUR CLOTHES. If they determine a crime has been committed they will take you to the ER for an evidence collection exam. If you don't have a friend or family member to go with you, law enforcement will get you an advocate if you want one. The advocate can stay with you, bring you some clean clothes to get home in, and explain everything to you as it's happening. Even if you have a friend or family member with you, they can sit with them too and provide crisis counseling to all of you that day and on a regular basis.

This goes for men too. Both straight and gay. Get the evidence collected. You can always change your mind about pursuing charges, but you cannot go back in time and get that precious evidence collected.

[hedgehog]

457. We were told at our daughter's college orientation that most campus rapes

involve someone the woman knows, and that most rapes involve first semester freshmen in the first few weeks of school. Just my own speculation, but I wonder how many of those woman were drinking for the first time and had no idea how quickly they could get drunk?

[madeline_con]

328. "too drunk or high to give you consent" is NOT what you said originally.

You're projecting a blind spot. I'm not sure what that means, but's it's very popular among those who refuse to believe people have group sex and like it. I'm sure you know what I mean.

[Hello_Kitty]

418. I have no idea WTF you are talking about. eom

[subcomhd]

431. yes, she is SO projecting the biggest blind spot ever!

[Odin2005]

329. I see the usual suspects are on your case, defending rape.

Wonder where the worst offender in the date-rape thread froma while back is? :puke:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

422. Who here is defending rape? Please be specific and include quotes.

[robinlynne]

445. That doesn't sound like "drunk" to me.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

465. It's drunk enough to get you a DUI.

[harkadog]

313. Yes I'm afraid you are the crazy person

Any amount of alcohol can result in someone being "impaired" to some degree. Same thing with dope. Therefore anything is rape if someone has had any alcohol or drug. Crazy. To compare the legal legal for drunk driving with consent for sex is just ridiculous.

[ourbluenation]

158. Legally a person cannot consent to sex if they are drunk or high.

let's say "Linda" is drunk and has sex with "Eric".

Once Linda is sober she is either going to be okay with the fact that she had sex with Eric or not.

If she's not okay with it in the eyes of the law she was raped. Doesn't mean he'll get convicted, but he could be charged with rape.

Eric - don't have sex with a girl who is drunk. For karmic reasons and legal reasons.

And let me add that this would apply in the situation where Linda and Eric are just friends, dating, or married.

[subcomhd]

160. Then my wife raped me last night. I knew there was something about that woman

I didn't trust.

[ourbluenation]

168. Seriously and technically, if you were too drunk to consent she could be charged with rape.

Of course, it sounds like you were ok with it and then some. Hubba hubba.

[subcomhd]

174. I was over the limit, which is why she drove home. But not passed out.

Would that really count? And what should I blackmail her for? LOL.

[ourbluenation]

183. Legally, yes that would count. But you don't sound like you were victimized so if you blackmail

her you could be accused of extortion???? lol. :)

[subcomhd]

184. Oh actually the whole thing was my idea (drunk though I was). Might that hurt my case?

nt

[ourbluenation]

200. You wouldn't haver a case if you planned it in advance. That would be clear consent.

LOL!

[madeline_con]

330. I, too, have been raped time and again in my own home!

:7

[Odin2005]

336. There is this little thing called CONTEXT you are missing.

two drunk people that are in a relationship having sex is not rape. A bunch of guys gang-banging a drunk woman is rape.

[LisaL]

357. That statement has absolutely no support in the law.

Nowhere does it say that a boyfriend has a right to have sex with his girlfriend if she is too drunk to consent.

[Odin2005]

406. I was just trying to make a point that context is important and that there is a gray zone.

[tammywammy]

366. So you're saying if you're in a relationship it cannot be rape?

:eyes:

[Odin2005]

404. Of course not.

I'm simply saying context is important. And there is a gray zone.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

423. But when others point out gray zones you say they are defending rape.

[Odin2005]

426. That's disagreement about where the gray zones are.

I think many people's gray zones are too lax, based on a thread a few months back were many were defending raping a drunk woman.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

427. But you said people were doing it in this thread.

[subcomhd]

430. Oh, but you see my predator wife wasn't drunk at all. That's why she drove home.

By the "intoxicated means incapable of consent" argument, I was raped. The fact I initiated it is irrelevant I assume.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

166. So if Linda's husband was drunk also they would both be committing rape?

[ourbluenation]

178. They could accuse each other of rape. A jury would determine who was the perp and who was the victim

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

181. How drunk would they have to be?

Who has the responsibility to carry the breathalyzer?

[ourbluenation]

190. It's likely that no DA would take that case. A conviction would be tough.

It's tough enough with fairly straightforward cases.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

194. So what is the standard? How drunk does one have to be to not give consent?

[ourbluenation]

218. weight vs drinks consumed I would think would be a starting point for building a case.

and time frame that the drinks are consumed.

The point here is that there is a lot of grey area. Date rape type of situations are hard to get convictions because of all the technical things you are bringing up. Victims going through a trial commonly feel like they are getting raped all over again, trust me. Even with a conviction. And if the accused is innocent, he or she has to go through a humiliating, tiring, and expensive ordeal. This is why the best advice I gave my son was NO CASUAL SEX IF POSSIBLE AND ESPECIALLY WITH GIRLS WHO ARE DRINKING. Period. Good risk management. I would say the same things to girls, and since they are more often the victims and not the perps, I would say avoid drinking socially if possible, or have a buddy system of some kind where one person is not just the designated driver but the designated watch dog.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

219. Sound advice.

[Odin2005]

340. Good advice.

Booze and sex with random girls is a BAD mix.

[babythunder]

500. What is your legal background?

I am questioning it because you make it seem as though DAs all over the country are building rape cases against men who had sex with intoxicated women. I find this improbable for a couple of reasons.

1. The Breathalyzer test would have to be done that night and how many date rape victims immediately report.

2. So it's comes down to he said/she said which can be very difficult cases to prove.

3. If both parties were drunk the case could easliy be construed as "buyer's remorse" type situation.

4. There is entirely too much grey area and not enough concrete evidence in case like this so the idea that if ANYONE sleeps with an intoxicated person could be prosecuted I find highly ridiculous.

[LisaL]

There is no blood alcohol limit for rape by intoxication.

But it would have to be pretty darn drunk to be unable to give consent, I would think.

[madeline_con]

334. A jury would have to be pretty drunk to convict either one of them.

I think the Bailiff runs the breathalyzer.

[LisaL]

252. Yea right. Are you suggesting a prosecutor

would put a case on trial, and then ask a jury to decide which one is a perp and which one is a victim? It doesn't work that way.

[ourbluenation]

310. Nah. I was just going along with the hypothetical. n/t

[ZombieHorde]

298. Two people raping each other. Doesn't seem logical. nt

[ourbluenation]

333. I think what he meant is two people accusing each other of rape. n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

421. That was the point. You understood perfectly.

[LisaL]

235. Legally a person cannot consent to sex if they are drunk?

Oh really? Where did you get that idea? Using your logic, someone having a glass of wine with dinner and then having sex isn't able to consent and thus has been raped.

[ourbluenation]

331. It's not my logic. That's the law in most states.

And I'm speaking purely from a legal stand point here. Can one have consensual sex when they are drinking? Of course.

[LisaL]

342. Really? You think drunk people can not consent to sex?

There is no law in any state that says that. Law says someone can be too drunk to consent to sex. It doesn't say that drunk people can not consent to sex.

[ourbluenation]

356. Drunk people have sex. This we know. Legally, there is no implied consent though if they are drunk.

Legally you cannot consent to sex if you are drunk. Emphasis on legally.

You can have sex when you are drunk.
You can feel good about it.
You can enjoy the experience and not feel victimized.
You can wake up the next day and sing a song about how the earth moved and the heavens opened.

But LEGALLY there is no consent if you were drunk.

[LisaL]

359. Please provide a link to support that idea.

What law would that be?
:eyes:

[ourbluenation]

361. sure. what state are you in?

[LisaL]

364. Don't bother with my state.

It doesn't matter what state I am in.
If you are talking about rape by intoxication, I've already pointed out to you-someone can be too drunk to consent to sex does not equal that someone who is drunk can not consent to sex.

[ourbluenation]

Lisa - I think we are confusing two concepts here....

Drunk people consent to sex all the time. hell, after this I'm gonna need a giant fucking drink and a big, fat roll in the hay.

What I'm telling you is that a drunk person can have sex. Even say they want to have sex. But when he or she wakes up the next day they can go straight to the police and literally say, I boned my neighbor last night. I told him I wanted him. But I was drunk. Was I raped? I don't feel like I was raped. The law would say yes because the law is that there is no consent because you were drunk. EVEN IF YOU CONSENTED. You legally cannot consent if you were drunk. You physically can consent. You verbally can consent. You mentally can consent. But the law does not recognize any of that as consent if you were drunk.

Now getting that case to trial would be another thing all together.

[LisaL]

416. Show me the link to that law, please.

Pretty please. I've already asked you. You've provided nothing to support this idea. How on Earth did you come up with this stuff?
Using your logic, anyone who had a glass of wine can claim rape.
It's absurd.

[ourbluenation]

466. I'm in calif so I'll use our penal code...

First this from the Calif. NOW, specifically Gloria Steinem...

http://www.canow.org/canoworg/2008/03/how-do-you-defi.html

Recently, I was on a college campus and women were discussing the “walk of shame”. This was described as when a woman is drunk and she has nonconsensual sex. All of these women were unaware that in the state of California, you are not legally able to consent if you are drunk.

Here's the penal code.

261 (3)
262 (2)

http://www.defend-me.com/california/california-penal-code-261-269.asp

What I said from the beginning is drunk, not one glass of wine...you said that. Can one glass one wine make someone drunk? neither one of us can determine that and has nothing to do with the law.

[LisaL]

468. How on Earth do you interpret

"Where a person is prevented from resisting by any intoxicating
or anesthetic substance, or any controlled substance, and this
condition was known, or reasonably should have been known by the
accused."
http://www.defend-me.com/california/california-penal-code-261-269.asp

to mean that drunk people can not legally consent to sex?


The law says that if a person is prevented from resisting by intoxicating substance, and this condition is known-that's rape. Or that if someone is passed out, that's rape. It doesn't say if someone drinks alcohol, then wants to have sex, then has sex, that someone was raped. Not even close.
Jeez.

[ourbluenation]

476. Drunk people consent to sex all the time. We know this. I'm not saying they don't nor

am I saying it's illegal for two drunk people to have sex. Never did.

I'm stating that legally, a defendant cannot claim the person consented even if the victim stated in his or her drunkedness "I CONSENT".

[LisaL]

477. Hah?

An accused can not claim the person consented?
Where are you getting these ideas from? There is nothing in the penal code indicating anything of the sort.
Using that kind of logic, if a person goes to the police, says he/she was drunk and had sex, an accused is automatically guilty if he/she admits to sex because he/she can not use the defense that a person consented? No trial is needed, just lock him/her up?
Really?

[ourbluenation]

479. The accused can claim whatever he wants. If there is enough evidence there will be a trial

then a jury decides of he or she is guilty of rape. I'm an executive director of a rape crisis center. That's where I get these ideas from. The law is, if she said she consented during the sex act, but was drunk, she has protections under the law to come back afterward and say she did not consent because she was drunk, and the law would agree. It's not my logic or my argument. It is the law. The grey area here is that it ends up being a he said she said. If the da can prove that she was drunk, then there was no consent. Period. Of course the da won't even know about the incident unless the person feels victimized and goes to the police. And the penalties for false claims of rape are real. So going back to the beginning of this conversation, it is very, very good advice to tell young people to not engage in casual sex with a partner who is intoxicated. Not worth the potential problems down the road for all parties involved.

Can we move on now? :yoiks:

[LisaL]

480. How drunk would she have to be?

You say if the DA can prove she was drunk, there was no consent. Seriously? So if DA can prove she drunk a glass of wine, or a beer, then it was rape? More than this? How much more? Less than this? She sipped a beer-still no consent? She did some wine testing-is that good enough?
I don't see how we can "move on" until you explain to me what it is the DA would have to prove.

[ourbluenation]

483. I'm moving on Lisa. I stated the law, with no opinion on the merits of the law. It is what it is.

What a DA can prove or not prove or how they prove it is beyond my pay grade.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

146. Passed out, I agree. Drunk it depends.

To say that anyone who has sex with someone who is drunk is raping them is just silly.

[LisaL]

220. Well some DU posters seem to argue

that if a woman had an alcoholic beverage then she is no longer able to give consent. I have absolutely no clue how these posters came up with that idea, but they will argue it all day long. Clearly, as a society, we don't assume that if someone has been drinking, he/she is not capable of knowing what he/she is doing. Otherwise all the drunk criminals would get off as not responsible for their actions. It's not even illegal to drink and then drive, as long as you are below the legal limit.
On the other hand, the laws do recognize rape by intoxication.
The laws don't specify how drunk a person has to be, but it's my understanding that for a DA to prosecute, it would have to be close to passing out drunk.

[darkstar3]

305. Personally, when it comes to my rubric, it's very simple.

Everyone knows that alcohol lowers inhibitions and damages the ability of a person to make weighty decisions.

-You cannot sign legal papers, especially for things like closing on a house, while identifiably intoxicated (I was warned by my real estate agent not to drink before the closing meeting due to this very reason)
-You cannot get a tattoo (at least in any shop worth their price) when you are identifiably intoxicated. (Warned by my tattoo artist)

These two examples, among a myriad of state laws regarding contracts signed under duress or intoxication, prove the point that there are times in our lives when we cannot give informed consent to the actions and consequences we are undertaking.

This, to me, says that any level of intoxication strong enough to alter your speech, your gait, your balance, and by proxy your decision making ability, makes it impossible for you to give informed consent.

I know a lot of people don't agree with my point of view, but I only sleep with people if I know for a FACT that they would f*ck me sober. This means that most of the time, in fact the vast majority of the time, I don't sleep with intoxicated people. This may mean that in my life I've had a lot less sex than I could have, but I don't care. I won't cross that non-con line, not even by accident.

[LisaL]

314. If a woman drinks, gets behind a wheel, then gets into an accident,

are you going to argue she didn't know what she was doing and thus shouldn't get a DUI? That's not what the law is.
Yet if that same woman, with that same level of intoxication, has sex, apparently she had no clue what she was doing?

[darkstar3]

347. I never said she didn't know what she was doing.

That's hyperbolic. You're making it sound like this woman is walking around in a half-blacked-out state, which would be the only way she wouldn't know on some level what she was doing.

But knowing what you're doing and understanding the full consequences and dangers of your actions are entirely different things. Alcohol, and other illicit substances, take away the human ability to thoroughly analyze situations and think things through to their logical ends, and do so even at low blood levels. This is EXACTLY why DUI laws are so strict, and why bartenders and parents have been held liable for damages in the past when it was proven that they could have prevented someone from driving drunk.

Just because someone knows on some level what they're doing doesn't mean that they would perform the same actions while sober. You're never heard the wonderfully colloquial and horrifically sexist phrases like "beer goggles," "coyote ugly," or the coup de grace "liquid panty remover"? Adults all know that alcohol makes them do things that they would NOT do sober.

And if the person I want to have sex with wouldn't do me sober, it's rape.

[LisaL]

348. If adults know alcohol makes them do things that they would not

do sober, doesn't it stand to reason they shouldn't drink to the point that they do things they would not do sober?

[darkstar3]

355. A worthy argument

which is why I only drink in safe situations with friends, preferably when I know I don't have to drive afterward until I've had some sleep.

[Gwendolyn]

380. I take issue with that last line of yours.

While raping a semi-conscious person is despicable, there are many ways alcohol affects the way an evening goes. From what I remember, the major fall-out of a woman getting drunk in my circles, was that she would end up going home with someone she would normally find obnoxious or hideous by day. Beer goggles work both ways. Although these guys were drunk as well, I don't recall one instance where any of them accused rape because they were used and dumped.

Thankfully I despise all alcohol but wine and the places I frequented while at school only served kerosene out of a box. Even though I OD on diet coke, it kept me out of trouble and lucid enough to see that alcohol affects people in all kinds of ways, by far not always culminating in rape, but certainly often enough with a headache and lots of regret. And there IS, a big difference.

[darkstar3]

401. And this is where you and I differ on definitions

To many people, and apparently to you as well, the word "rape" is reserved for a few, very specific acts. Some examples:

1. A violent act of attack on one person by another, involving forced sexual intercourse and usually a significant amount of personal injury, even death.
2. "Roofie rape" - Drugging someone and then having sex with them anyway.
3. "Date rape" - pressuring someone, even using physical intimidation, to make them do sexual things with you that they do not wish to do.

For me, rape is any type of sexual act where one of the partners does not provide consent. It really is just that simple. I do recognize what this means. Under my definition:

-A husband who forces his wife to have sex with him at any time when she doesn't want to (and vice versa), even if physical violence isn't used, is guilty of rape.
-A guy (or girl) who takes someone slobbering drunk home from a bar or club and sleeps with them is guilty of rape.
-Anyone who says "if you love me you'll do ____" is guilty of rape if that blank is filled in with something sexual.

My definition of rape is incredibly strict, and if others, including the law, adhered to it I'm sure many here would be considered rapists. I understand that, and I don't care. Just like there are degrees to murder, manslaughter, and wrongful death, so should there be degrees to rape. These degrees would allow us to put under the rape definition things that truly belong there, like the example scenarios I've listed here, and then some.

As a parting thought, I leave you with this: Nobody has to scream rape, during or after, for it to be rape. If either party feels violated the next day, then a rape occurred, even if that word doesn't make it into their heads.

[Gwendolyn]

408. If the law acknowledged your last two points as rape...

at least half the world's population would be incarcerated, so it's a good thing it doesn't automatically do so. I would hate to live in such a world.

Of course, you're free to have your opinions and to live by them.

[darkstar3]

414. I am aware of that

and while living in a world where fully half the population is incarcerated would be sad indeed, how sad is it to live in a world where half the population is guilty of rape on some level?

[TexasObserver]

482. You're guilty of destroying the meaning of the word "rape."

You've created a world where common sex acts committed by consenting adults are called rape because that's what you've damn well decided. You have taken a word that means a heinous act and applied it to situations humans around the globe employ because they're adults and they want to.

[darkstar3]

487. Changing it, maybe.

Destroying it, I think not. Ask a feminist, a rape victim, or certain other individuals on this board, and you will find large support for the definition of rape I posted above:
"rape is any type of sexual act where one of the partners does not provide consent."

How is this a problem? How is it confusing? And how is it, in any way, 'destroying' the meaning of the word rape?

'You have taken a word that means a heinous act and applied it to situations humans around the globe employ because they're adults and they want to.'

This statement disgusts me on so many levels that I'm not even sure if I can formulate a proper reply. Let me first be clear that I consider EVERYTHING that falls under MY definition of rape to be a heinous act. Second, (and here's the :banghead: part) 'they want to'??? Did you even READ my post? Exactly what I'm saying here is that at least ONE person in that bar situation that everyone is so up in arms about is NOT consenting.

[TexasObserver]

488. As I said, you've left reality for a fantasy world run by you.

Your opinion on what constitutes rape is not the one that controls its definition.

You're free to think whatever you want, but rape will never be defined as you wish it.

[darkstar3]

491. Allright then, what's your definition?

And why do take such offense at mine?

[TexasObserver]

494. Each State defines "rape" in their criminal statutes.

If you want to know what RAPE means, you have to know which state, and you have to find the definition adopted by that state in its criminal statutes.

We have a set of offenses typically called SEXUAL ASSAULT. They include most of the things you want to call RAPE.

[darkstar3]

496. Are you saying that you live your life ONLY by the law of your state?

Are you saying that all the laws on the books are sufficient?

Of course not.

So what, in your mind, dictates what laws are sufficient and therefore unchangeable, and what laws can be improved?

For the record, just about any law can be improved in some way.

[Gwendolyn]

490. In your world 90% of men and women would never enjoy oral sex again!

:rofl:

[darkstar3]

492. How exactly did you manage to leapfrog to THAT statement? n/t

[Gwendolyn]

493. You obviously have no idea of how many activities people engage in...

only "out of love" for the other person. Or knowing that if they themselves are generous, they'll be getting generosity in return. Falls under your "if you love me, you'll do xyz" version of rape.

[darkstar3]

495. Did the selfish partner ever utter those damnable words?

Was there ever a conversation or even a single sentence between the two unhappy lovebirds regarding what was in or out of bounds?

Let's focus this on one instance of fellatio for the sake of demonstration:

1. If the man wants it (and there are very few men who don't, I'll admit), and the woman simply does it because she knows that, without conversation or complaint, then how was anyone in the relationship to know there was a problem?
2. However, if the woman states that she will not perform the act, and the man constantly pressures her, badgers her, and even resorts to coercion techniques to make her do it, then dammit, yes, he's a rapist.

But you're taking my argument to the hyperbolic place. You're saying that I would call item 1 rape, when in fact there's just no way to define that. She never said 'no', she never under any circumstances let her husband know that she didn't want to, and therefore we COULD call item 1 'silent consent', even if I'm not very comfortable with that phrase. Item 2, however, is unequivocally rape.

Now when it comes to law enforcement, it's obvious that even item 2 cannot be prosecuted or legislated against, because who could prove it? I understand that, but I think that we as a society, or at LEAST as a group of progressives, can recognize these problems when we see them, and even if we can't legislate against it, we can work to keep it from happening.

[Gwendolyn]

484. Lol, I'm fine with the law as it stands.

Your world would be a wasteland to me. But, you can always surround yourself with like-minded people and ignore the rest.

[darkstar3]

489. Is that supposed to be clever?

Have your fun, but remember this: If I wanted to surround myself with like-minded people and ignore the rest, would I be a member of a discussion board?

[Gwendolyn]

498. Not clever. Just practical. n/t

[darkstar3]

499. Right, then I would leave you alone

In other words, you found a high-minded way to tell me to 'fuck off' because I don't agree with you. Well argued...:sarcasm:

[Gwendolyn]

502. Sigh. I figured it was clear.

You have extremely strict rules concerning relationships, going so far as to label common relationship negotiating as rape. You've clearly stated that these people would be imprisoned if you had your way. Your fellatio example obviously concerned a male, but I'm assuming you'd have no qualms about throwing women in the clink either since they engage in such behavior as often if not more. It seems highly unlikely, given your extreme feelings, that you'd be happy with friends/a mate who don't share your position, and you perhaps find yourself angered/hurt on a consistent basis. It's one option to surround yourself only with people who observe the same political view and thus avoid unhappy situations. Many people do that. That's what it meant, no more, no less.

[darkstar3]

504. Oi...

'but I'm assuming you'd have no qualms about throwing women in the clink either since they engage in such behavior as often if not more.'
You're assume correctly.

'It seems highly unlikely, given your extreme feelings, that you'd be happy with friends/a mate who don't share your position'
You assume incorrectly.

'and you perhaps find yourself angered/hurt on a consistent basis'
Again, incorrect.

You see, debate, discussion, argument, these are things that we do to further our own understanding of concepts and to share ideas. If we cannot do this with our friends, then who? One should be able to discuss weighty issues with friends, even to the point of serious disagreement, and then move on while still being friends. Otherwise, we'll all just end up talking about the weather...

[seabeyond]

337. i am not getting into the whole drinking part of this thread

my views are a bit skewed cause of experience, but i am glad i read your post. i like this perspective to share with sons. will be there personal decision, but it is a good way to go.

[darkstar3]

351. Thank you. :)

[seabeyond]

353. well,

i jsut had son read this and he agreed with what you are saying. doesnt have any trouble with what you are saying. so thanks.

[darkstar3]

362. Well, there's a feather in my cap.

It's nice to know that if I ever raise children I'll be able to make sense to them when they're 15.

Nice to know that you and your children have such open lines of communication. I think that's really healthy for both you.

:toast:

[seabeyond]

365. so much so. makes all the difference in the world. nt

[Odin2005]

344. IMO if you are too drunk to drive you are to drunk to consent to sex.

And IMO that only applies to if the people involved are not in a steady relationship.

[LisaL]

346. But we don't excuse someone who is too drunk to drive but

does it anyway.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

424. Legally that is .06 in some states. That is 2 beers in 30 minutes in an avg. person.

I don't believe any prosecutor or jury would find that any normal adult who only drank 2 beers in 30 minutes would be intoxicated to the point where they couldn't give consent.

[ourbluenation]

397. christ. n/t

[babythunder]

501. Also I have friends that can come off as

completely sober even though they are completely drunk. Especially if it's a one-night stand type of deal and man meets a woman at party talks to her for a bit and decides to have sex. Unless she was at the point of passed out, unable to stand on her own, vomiting, or doing all three how can a person tell? Especially if that person themselves has been drinking. Personally I think some posters are pulling these so-called laws out of their asses or they lead very shelter lives. People go out and get drunk and yes sometimes they have sex. I don't agree nor do I think most DAs would prosecute in these cases unless their is some evidence to show that the victim was blatantly intoxicated or there is evidence that she was forcibly held down (or something along those lines).

[subcomhd]

159. or butts nt

[ZombieHorde]

296. My wife rapes me all of the time then. Damn, I married a serial rapist. nt

[madeline_con]

326. Drunk sex is not always rape. That's just silly. n/t

[Odin2005]

327. There are posters that think screwing a half-conscious drunk woman is OK.

There was a massive flame war involving a movie scene involving that. So many posters said it wasn't rape, I was disgusted, especually because my friend had been raped only a week before.

:cry:

[XanaDUer]

19. Well, lucky me.

I'm pretty old now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

131. Yes, it is part of the culture...

[madeline_con]

325. Did you think it was something new?

Not to be snarky, but ancient Romans gang banged.

[hedgehog]

459. Yes, and when I think of people with high morals who would never

exploit a weaker person, I always think of the Romans.

http://www.art-wallpaper.com/18427/Poussin+Nicolas/Rape+of+the+Sabine+Women-1024x768-18427.jpg

[Lorien]

4. Forth: you run a huge risk of getting an STD

AIDS and herpes are both on the rise and no one seems to be talking about them anymore.

Fifth: Maybe you should talk to him about the difference between fucking and making love, or is the latter passe with teens these days?

[GreenPartyVoter]

13. +1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

[surrealAmerican]

20. Nice pun.

That's a "sextillion".

[GreenPartyVoter]

21. LOL Freak accident. I was just going for something with a lot of zeros.

[JBoy]

68. And a gang-bang is kind of like a cotillion.

[madeline_con]

335. Without the fancy dresses. n/t

[Deja Q]

71. From observation, more people are content with "use a condom, wear protection!"

Nice to see some like to spell out the difference between "making love" and mere sex...

[Gwendolyn]

89. It's not that it's passé...

But legal teens and twenty-year-olds are only just beginning to learn about their sexuality and it doesn't make much sense to judge them by the same standards as 50-year-olds who've been around the block (maybe many times.)

Every generation the cycle continues. Twenty-year-olds appear to be obsessed with looks. By the time they hit thirty they usually realize what's inside is more important. By the time they hit forty half the pop wonders what they may have been missing and either deal or break up their families. By fifty, people have completely rewritten their own spotty histories and bemoan the state of youth today, oh LORD, they're ALL going to hell in a hand basket.

Not directed at you, but I always have a good laugh at all the feminists on DU who have no probs promoting this idea that eighteen-something girls are all emotionally-crippled, fragile rubes, while boys the same age are somehow supposedly more worldly and level-headed. How sexist and pathetic.

[Lorien]

143. Feminism; the radical notion that women are human beings

I'm a feminist, and I've never suggested such a sexist, anti-feminist idea. Teenage boys are "worldly and level headed"??? :rofl:

[Gwendolyn]

163. You've missed BlooInBloo's thread which is now locked.

The comments alluded to EXACTLY that. And they were all authored by women.

No woman is responsible for her actions if she is promiscuous. All men own full responsibility for whatever sex act occurs. It was a thread where all the people involved were 18 and 19 years old. This thread is part deux of that one

I don't know how old you are, but do you honestly judge 20-year-olds by what you know at your age. Cause I know when 20-year-old guys occasionally try to come onto me the older woman, I have to try hard to keep my lips from quivering before the full blown laughter at their fumbling, flubbering attempts bursts forth.

[subcomhd]

203. how could anyone have POSSIBLY missed THAT?

nt

[madeline_con]

338. Right? We were both there. I like this one, too.

:bounce:

[Hello_Kitty]

149. What?!?

Not directed at you, but I always have a good laugh at all the feminists on DU who have no probs promoting this idea that eighteen-something girls are all emotionally-crippled, fragile rubes, while boys the same age are somehow supposedly more worldly and level-headed. How sexist and pathetic.

I don't know any feminists who think that but I sure meet a lot of patriarchy-appeasers who think the opposite: That women are emotionally complex and manipulative while the poor widdle men are beasts programmed by nature to think with their dicks.

[Gwendolyn]

169. As I replied to Lorien, go visit Bloo in Bloo's thread for an awakening...

of how that thinking is translated when the woman happens to be the promiscuous party, or the one who displays kinkyish attitudes towards sex. Even if it's totally her choice, apparently she's a victim, emotionally-stunted, disturbed. It's totally impossible for a woman to think with her vagina.

[madeline_con]

341. She barely made it out alive. Let's not forget that tasty morsel. n/t

[Gwendolyn]

383. Yes! :-D That was an amazing thread.

On the one hand it was funny, but on the other, really troublesome in that people just don't want to give women the credit for knowing their own minds. And that attitude comes from WOMEN yet! I see it's continuing in this thread.

[madeline_con]

393. And again in this one...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6586458

[Gwendolyn]

411. Incredible!!

All these threads harping on "sex while drinking" as though the only reason a woman might have sex with 3 or 5 men is because she's PLASTERED. Either that or a fresh-faced ingenue who doesn't know better. Or a horribly abused woman. It CAN'T possibly be because she felt like it at the moment.

There's not one shred of evidence that Hofstra woman was drunk and it's never come up in the news. But that doesn't stop anyone from inventing the scenarios that fit the comfort zones of their world view. :D

[madeline_con]

412. A new one just popped up, written by an old friend.

;)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6589489&mesg_id=6589489

[Gwendolyn]

415. No words...

:)

[Forkboy]

433. Wow...just wow.

:freak:

[Hello_Kitty]

419. And this is the fault of feminism?

That's funny, I've seen feminists doing things like fighting tooth and nail to ensure women have access to contraception and safe legal abortion so they could enjoy a free and healthy sex life all these years. Yes, and also fighting for vigorous prosecution of rape and making women aware that they have the right to say "no", again, so women can enjoy a free and healthy sex life.

[Gwendolyn]

425. No, it's not the fault of feminism at all.

If you reread my posts I was referring to specific people on DU, those who were referring to the Hofstra woman as a naive girl, while the guys, who were the same age were being called men, who should have known better.

Don't know about you, but I've been competing for jobs with men since the age of 23. I'd prefer not to have this myth that we're fragile beings incapable of making decisions, perpetuated. And although I'm vanilla-ish myself in the love department, it makes me ill that women are still not free to express themselves however they wish without all the condescension blanketed in concern.

[provis99]

172. isn't there an ad on tv now about how fragile and emotional girls are?

sometimes, "feminism" looks more like Victorian-Age male attitudes about females.

[Gwendolyn]

202. Good analogy! :-)

Freedom is great for both sexes, as long as everyone agrees that freedom entails fostering one-on-one relationships. If a woman uses her freedom to choose to live the life of a forest satyr, not so good. If she does, it must be leftover fall-out from the patriarchy. She couldn't POSSIBLY want to choose such a thing.

[Hello_Kitty]

420. Is it an ad put out by a feminist organization?

Or is it someone else but you're blaming feminists for it?

[Odin2005]

350. I'm 23 and I think sex with someone you love is munch more fun then meaningless sex with a stranger.

[dhpgetsit]

5. I don't think "Gang Banging" has the same meaning these days.

It can simply mean running with a gang.

[Connie_Corleone]

8. It still has the same meaning.

[Curtland1015]

16. It can mean either. nt

[ecstatic]

24. Around here it's called "running a train" nt

[madeline_con]

343. Yes, it's been called that for decades, too. n/t

[Pavulon]

6. Bottom Line, Dont have sex with drunk (stoned, rolling) girls..

you are setting yourself up for a charge.

[Iggo]

59. That, and it's just wrong.

I realized very early in life (late teens? early 20's?) that girls in that condition are in fact in no condition to give proper consent.

No friends.
No neighbors.
No co-workers.
No women with husbands or boyfirends.
And definitely NO DRUNK CHICKS!

[SpookyCat]

114. It's wrong for your value system, not for mine.

Wave your finger all you like, my personal values differ.

When I would meet a man or woman who told me they were in a relationship, nothing was going to happen between us til I heard from the other parters mouth that this was ok. Even better if they joined in! I would not be a party to cheating. If it is consensual, as it is for me, (open relationship) then it is not cheating.

Sure as I get older what I would do is changing, but that doesn't mean that what I did before was wrong. I'm just older and more tired, hanging by my arms for any length of time is work now! LOL!

I agree with no co-workers, just for practical reasons. But some of my dearest friends have been sexual partners. My little tribe is different from yours. Not better, not worse, different.

[pitohui]

128. yes because a drunk CAN'T give consent, it's rape

what is so difficult about that?

you are not just "setting yourself up" for a charge, you don't deserve to be walking aroun din society because you are a rapist -- you are the kind of person who takes advantage of someone who can't give informed consent

if you see some guys targeting a drunk girl, you call 911, you don't get in line because you figure you can get away with it -- it's true, it's difficult for a DA to prosecute a rape when the victim is drunk

but she's still a victim

and you're still a rapist

check out your state's laws, maybe there is a state where it's OK to fuck somebody who is too drunk/high to give consent but it ain't the one where i live

[Pavulon]

161. Drunk is a legal term. You can drive a car at .08 and be legal

or be dwi. .08 impairment varies with a person. However, I am talking about the common sense respect given to a person who may not be legally drunk but is making a decision while tipsy or off their normal. I am not talking about a person who is passed out or sloppy (which is clearly rape).

It is a common sense rule and is not so much a measurable thing. But it is obvious when you see it. Hard to explain. We are on the same page.

[liquid diamond]

167. Being drunk can vary from person to person.

If a woman has a couple of beers, her judgment can merely be impaired. She might sleep with a guy that she probably wouldn't sleep with had she not had two drinks. In that situation the guy should not be charged with rape. Now if she's passed out, that's a different story.

[provis99]

176. I had sex when I was drunk.

Are you saying I was raped by the woman? Or does your stupid analysis only apply when it is the woman drunk?

[KittyWampus]

212. Women are just as capable of raping a drunken male. Although very often drunken men remain flaccid.

But you can still abuse them sexually.

[liquid diamond]

268. Thanks KittyWampus. You understood me unlike provise99.

[liquid diamond]

263. No. Read my post again.

[Odin2005]

358. +1, Exactly.

I think we have more than a few posters attacking knee-jerk fashion exactly because they have engaged in such crap.

[EOTE]

9. Are you more likely to be accused of rape after a gangbang

compared to just 1 on 1 sex? You'd think that in a gangbang, you've at least got witnesses who can attest to it being consensual. If people were truly innocent until proven guilty, it wouldn't be an issue at all. It's sick how easy it is to ruin someone's life.

[hedgehog]

32. How often does one on one consensual sex turn into a gang bang when

his buddies turn up and decide to join in?

[lumberjack_jeff]

100. Who knows?

Other than the fact that there are more witnesses to verify your claim that it was consensual.

I often wonder how many people are on sex offender lists who did nothing wrong.

[pitohui]

133. a gangbang is highly unlikely to be consentual

just because all your buddies are going to back you up, if you're five to one piling on a drunk girl, you are a rapist

legally and morally

you are no different from anyone else who ever used his buddies to smear a girl and say she was a whore and couldn't be raped because they all had her

you are exactly the same

ever notice how many sober girls, who are not getting paid, participate in gangbangs? the odds that a gangbang involved consent are astronomical

the odds that it involved intimidating the girl by fear, smears, and force of numbers is about a million to one

common sense here people

you didn't just by lucky chance wake up one day in a dorm with a girl porn star who wants to pull a train with you, if you're ganging a girl, you're almost certainly raping her, and if she's drunk, there's no "almost"

it's rape

sure in a gangbang the girl will be outnumbered and all the buddies will back each other up, that doesn't make them "witnesses," it makes them liars as well as rapists, which kinda goes w. the territory

[provis99]

177. And how do you know how common gangbangs are?

For all you know, they could be exceedingly common. All you've got is a lot of bias and unsupported opinion.

[Codeine]

354. You are completely and utterly full of shit.

There is more wild and crazy sex going on in this world than your little vanilla values system would be able to handle -- consensual, sensual, wonderful sex in different permutations.

When dud DU become Church Lady fucking Central?!

[Odin2005]

363. Exactly, but some people are too misogynist, or too much in denial about their own behavior...

...to connect the dots. And even if it is not "rape" in the strict sense it's still fucking evil and wrong and sick.

[Forkboy]

434. "it's still fucking evil and wrong and sick."

Who the fuck are you to judge others sex lives, Pat Robertson?

What happened to your friend sucks, but it's time for you to grow up.

[omega minimo]

461. 2 cousins, 1 stepbrother, 2 "buddies." Fine upstanding family men.

:wtf:

[Gwendolyn]

462. An example of a consensual gangbang? Why, the Hofstra case, of course.

She wasn't drunk or high, and she initiated it. That's what happens when you get close and sweaty on a crowded dance floor. Them pheromones float around and the urges start welling up.

Here's a couple of clues Pit.

1. If every woman on earth had a shot at the genie in the bottle for any kind of relationship they desired, at least half would wish for a whole harem of men at their disposal to sate every desire and whim.

2. Our physiology has blessed us with superior endurance and capacity. The voracious and free-spirited among us see no reason to quell those desires. I'll bet back in the matriarchal times women had an absolute blast. Maybe if people like you didn't push your moral patriarchal bullshit on everyone else, the women who wanted to could party like it's 1999 without feeling like whores or victims.

[seabeyond]

463. she wasnt drunk or high? is that a fact or as much the assumption

as she was drunk or high.

straight question. from what i read no one knows either way. did you read that she wasnt drunk or high soemwhere?

[Gwendolyn]

464. Yes, it's pretty much a fact.

It's against the law to have sex with someone who can't give consent, as in, being falling down drunk. There's a cell phone vid of the encounter. If it depicted the woman as being plastered, those boys wouldn't be back out on the streets, now would they?

The boyfriend spoke to her immediately following the encounter, and mentioned nothing in his interview that she was drunk. They immediately then went to campus security. Again, no mention of being wasted. Do you think it's feasible, even without the visual evidence, that a boyfriend would drag his plastered girlfriend across campus when it would've been easier to call security to the dorm?

None of the cops, the DA, etc... have mentioned drunkenness/lack of ability to give consent as a focus of their investigation. The woman herself didn't make accusations based on being in an incapacitated state, but rather, forcible confinement. As someone else said, she's underage and therefore should not have been allowed to buy alcohol at this mixer. Neither the police or the DA or the university have even remotely alluded to the idea that illegal alcohol was provided at this thing.

Now, what's your proof that she was wasted? Why do you assume she was? Where are you reading or getting this idea from, other than the sanctimonious scolds of DU?

[seabeyond]

467. i have not said a word about being drunk and not being drunk because we dont have the info

:)

[Gwendolyn]

470. I think I'm gonna go with the expertise of NY LE on this one.

Although it is tempting to be swayed by the DU armchair rape experts with an agenda, I admit.

:)

[seabeyond]

471. NY LE? to not have a position cause we havent gotten the info is a rape expert

with an agenda?

[Gwendolyn]

474. I wasn't talking about you, although you now seem to be promoting the idea...

that she was incapacitated in a back door kind of way.

But regardless, we have gotten the info.

The girl's incapacitation was never a question because there was never any evidence that she was, either physical, or eye witness. The woman doesn't even claim that and now there is concrete vid evidence. It was pure invention by certain DUers.

And arguing with those people is like arguing with the religious, who will just repeat "prove there isn't a God" over and over again. No rational person can ever reply because no rational answer is accepted.

[seabeyond]

475. i really dont know if she had been drinking or not. i can see why the info didnt come out

from the way this proceeded. but i dont have a clue. saying she came from a drinking party tends towards booze, yet no mention of booze tend to not being booze. so i dont know. wont say either are fact, because neither are.

not relevent to me either

and no.... none of the interpretations of mine can be construed as incapacited ergo victim. that is not how i feel.

[Curtland1015]

10. I don't think there is anything morally wrong with it, as long as everyone is a consenting adult.

But I agree on every other point.

Blargh!

:puke:

[hedgehog]

27. Key words: consenting adult

I doubt very much that when these situations develop, everyone stops to discuss what's going to happen next and to ensure that everyone is on board. So much for consent.

Adult? As in responsible, thinking ahead to possible consequences, seeing other people as individuals and not things? Please.

[RagAss]

37. I believe it's a sociopathic act on both sides of the equation.

[hedgehog]

39. Duck! You're about to be nailed with incoming rounds from all the "non-prudes" here!

:hide:

[RagAss]

41. I'm sure I will...but it won't sway this belief.

[Gwendolyn]

94. Don't duck... why not explain it instead? It's the only interesting comment on the thread. n/t

[omega minimo]

97. Nah, Mom let's 'em sleep in on Saturdays.

:yoiks:

[seabeyond]

11. thank you trumad. i have had discussion with my son about this.

about his own character and responsibility in choices made and even with the willing to consider the rightness.

the example we used was the house party, lacking parents, of group of boys getting a girl to give them all a blow job. as she goes from one to the other on knees. if he cant convince her that isnt going to make her liked or popular, or that it is not good for her, then at least walk. for his own character. to not use another person in this manner.

then how pathetic does he become

i read an article on this where one of the boys said, we respect ladies.... so much bullshit. not even.

it isnt even about false rape charges, though a male has to think these things thru, but it is what kind of person does he want to be. he has ownership in this too.

i dont often hear the fathers talking about teaching their sons this today, especially on du. appreciate it.

[Odin2005]

368. +1

You could not believe the misogynist shit I hear from other guys when women aren't around. It's part of the reason I tend to have more woman friends than male friends.

[seabeyond]

372. i can believe it. they do it when i am around. have always had male friends

brothers, ect.... i know what SOME talk in that manner, that is why i do not buy "but but but, i respect her". ya right. not even. and it really is only some males. not even close to being all.

[Odin2005]

407. Yep, it disgusts me.

Ugh, it's like too many guys think of a women as something to fuck. :grr:

[southerncrone]

12. Good for you.

Unfortunately, today there are too many kids who don't have caring parents to "steer" them. A virtual Lord of the Flies situation exists with our youth. Many, many of them are simply raising themselves because parents don't want to be "bothered" with dealing w/any more "problems" than life already has thrown their way. Single parents (usually mothers) struggle to keep a roof overhead & food on the table. Life is HARD. At my school, we see many boys who are constantly in trouble & most are residing in single-parent homes where mothers are working very hard, but don't fully understand the needs of teenage boys. These boys have no strong male role-models to help guide them. We are also seeing a rise in the number of girls who are making very bad decisions, they often come from single-parent homes. We cannot expect mothers to do it all.

Our country has a youth crisis that no one is talking about because the economy is in such a mess & has taken center stage (along w/health care) in the national debate. Fixing family problems is not an easy topic to tackle & solutions are difficult to find. Difficult to see how anyone can MAKE A PROFIT in tackling this, plus it would take too much trouble to debate & discuss.....just too messy all the way around for our political types. However, this is an issue that needs SERIOUS ATTENTION. It is one of the underlying problems that affects our future & economy.

Kudos to you, trumad, for doing your part! I might suggest that you speak w/some of his friends about this if you get the chance, or tell him to inform them of the consequences of this type of behavior.

PS I was raised in a single-parent home, back before it was KOOL. The difference was there were neighbors who were home (who also watched out for my best interests) & my extended family helped pick up the slack for Mom. Now, hardly any parents are home.


updated to add PS.

[seabeyond]

15. i agree whole heartedly with you. nt

[SharonAnn]

42. Why don't we address the issue of the fathers abandoning their sons? and daughters?

I know we talk about single mothers, but at least they're often trying to do the right thing for their children.

The real issue is that men are abandoning their children and leaving the entire burdon on t he women.

So, what are we going to do about the men who do this?

Pointing out the issue of single-parent families not having an adult male role model or guide, begs the question, "Where are the fathers".

[imdjh]

62. Give them custody?

[seabeyond]

69. both brothers have custody of their children. now those children need a female influence

there you go.

a child needs both parents.

[blondeatlast]

79. I'm there now. Dad is working overseas, found another girl. I'm fine, but my son

needs something from dad I can't provide. He's got loving male relatives and a A++ b-ball coach, but they can't provide that extra something that dad can.

[southerncrone]

86. That was a big part of the point I was making.

NOTE: "We cannot expect mothers to do it all."

We also must begin to make our girls feel worthy on their own. They should not equate their value in life based on whether they "have a boyfriend" or not. We need a movement to discourage having children without the benefit of BOTH parents being involved & in agreement with how to raise the kids. (Mature adults only) I teach HS Financial Planning & this is a big part of what I teach them....that having children before you are financially ready to support them can cause you to miss out on a multitude of opportunities in life, as well as effect the opportunities those children will have.

Unfortunately, the prevalent attitude about casual sex (i.e. irresponsible sex) among our youth is simply escalating the number of kids born into unhealthy situations.

[mitchum]

14. Also,the whole making sure that you don't touch one of the other guys...

thing is just more trouble than it's worth

[imdjh]

64. I think there are Tuesday rules for "accidental touching" especially if the much sought DP...

... is on the menu.

[LostInAnomie]

115. LOL

+1

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RagAss]

17. I shrivel at the thought.

[Hepburn]

18. SDT's....

...major reason for staying away from a gang bang ~~ along with allegations of rape being later made.

JMHO

[XanaDUer]

23. And the

degradation of the female, even if she is "consenting".

:puke:

[seabeyond]

26. i am seeing the posts about stds, rape charges, which is to have boy

think twice thru fear. what lacks is the teaching boy about respecting another person. yes, even with her consent, the degradation and having the character to not be a part of using another human.

that is what lacks.

teaching boys character that will stay with them, in their control and lesson not of fear, but being more.

[XanaDUer]

28. Yes, I'd noticed that too

Like those old military posters warning our boys in uniform about those pretty girls who may look fine but still harbor DISEASES! When you catch the clap, you score one for Der Fuhrer.

Shudder.

[Iggo]

66. See #59.

[seabeyond]

70. what does that have to do with anything i posted? nt

[Iggo]

73. Never mind.

I was editing and re-editing and I forgot that I left out the part that was relevant to what what you were talking about.

Sorry about that.

[Hepburn]

34. I would add that as a bad result of the over all conduct....

...you are correct on that, IMO. :hi:

[NickB79]

98. Just two questions

Is it degradation of the male, if multiple women want to have sex with one guy?

And why is consenting in quotations?

[pitohui]

137. because impaired/drunk folks can't give "consent"

where is "consent" when a person is too wasted to even have a clear idea of what they are doing?

as for multiple women wanting to have sex w. one guy, let me know if/when that ever becomes a big problem in these united states

[NickB79]

472. The woman in the Hofstra case, which initiated this thread, wasn't wasted

Unless you can provide evidence to the contrary.

And you didn't answer my first question: is it degrading for multiple women to have sex with one man? The frequency with which it happens (and it does happen) is not a justification for ignoring the question.

[liquid diamond]

175. Don't tell me you justify this shit.

[XanaDUer]

193. Sure

1. If he is impaired - not sure if a man under that much duress can get it up. I have read of sexual assualt cases where the male aggressor cannot get a hard-on and uses a penis substitute to stick in the female's vagina or anus.

2. It is in quotations because if the victim, or whatever gender, is drunk or high, then they may not give consent when non-impaired.

[NickB79]

473. Thank you for your answer. I am in full agreement with you regarding sex with inebriated people

But the Hofstra case, which started this thread, didn't have any drunk or high people involved, as far as everyone has reported in the news.

[ecstatic]

22. That's great advice. nt

[hedgehog]

25. Every generation thinks that it's the first one to discover sex.

When we were first married, my husband and I were at a church function talking with a gentleman in his 90's. I about fell off my chair when in the course of the conversation he said his mother always told him "Son, you be damn sure to keep your pants buttoned!"

Good advice then, good advice now.

Free love and guilt free sex may be all well and good for those who believe in it, but how many teenagers and young adults know themselves well enough to know that's what they want, let alone take the time to find out if that's what their partner wants?

[seabeyond]

29. ha.... in the many conversations with nieces, nephews and sons

that is something i bring up. like you all think you are the first to have sex. we have all been there, done that. yawl dont know anything we havent already done.

[hedgehog]

30. With all my children, boys and girls, whenever they left the house

with their friends, I cautioned them and their friends not to do anything that night with the group that they wouldn't do on their own. It's stunning how often a group of kids who as individuals are responsible and law abiding will do the most stupid crap as a group. It can be anything from smashing mail boxes to spray painting swastikas to group rape.

[seabeyond]

31. i like. i am going to remember, lol

good point. good comment to give kids as they walk out door. thanks.

[foo_bar]

33. I dunno, most 15 year olds take parental advice as dares

Unless there's some kinda group sex outbreak at school you might be planting a seed by saying X is very very ungroovy. At least there's some new research that supports this contention:

The visions seem to swirl up from the brain’s sewage system at the worst possible times — during a job interview, a meeting with the boss, an apprehensive first date, an important dinner party. What if I started a food fight with these hors d’oeuvres? Mocked the host’s stammer? Cut loose with a racial slur?

“That single thought is enough,” wrote Edgar Allan Poe in “The Imp of the Perverse,” an essay on unwanted impulses. “The impulse increases to a wish, the wish to a desire, the desire to an uncontrollable longing.” <...>

The empirical evidence of this influence has been piling up in recent years, as Dr. Wegner documents in the new paper. In the lab, psychologists have people try to banish a thought from their minds — of a white bear, for example — and find that the thought keeps returning, about once a minute. Likewise, people trying not to think of a specific word continually blurt it out during rapid-fire word-association tests.

The same “ironic errors,” as Dr. Wegner calls them, are just easy to evoke in the real world. Golfers instructed to avoid a specific mistake, like overshooting, do it more often when under pressure, studies find. Soccer players told to shoot a penalty kick anywhere but at a certain spot of the net, like the lower right corner, look at that spot more often than any other.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/07/health/07mind.html?_r=2&ref=science

[RagAss]

35. The Buddhists knew this 2000 years ago

[hedgehog]

38. There are many kinds of adult/teenager parent/child relationship models.

Where the relationship is confrontational and controlling, teenagers will go out of their way to flaunt the rules. Where the relationship is respectful and loving in both directions, teenagers actually listen.


What I find fascinating is watching people I knew as rebellious teenagers now repeating the same fights and same mistakes with their own children.

[seabeyond]

53. i guess it depends on the 15 yrs of raising the kid. if there has been a connection

respect on both sides, a continual process of talking and listening to each other, i disagree with you. our culture today likes to say exactly what you do. and parents do nothing, cause after all, what does it matter. leaving the child to figure out how to walk journey thru the very pressure you talk about

i disagree.

and it is not what i have found either in my experience growing up, or watching my children growing up

peer pressure does not have to being the influencing factor in our teens life

[omega minimo]

108. Neither does internet porn or movies about fucking apple pies

"peer pressure does not have to being the influencing factor in our teens life"

[Odin2005]

371. +1. Good post.

[voteearlyvoteoften]

36. Sorry you're wrong

My advice to my son was that it is not enough to walk away in a situation like that. You must stand up and stop it.
You are just as culpable if you witnessed a rape and did not help the girl. She could have been give the date rape drug, and even if appearing to consent it would still be rape. So what if your friends don't like it...at least you can live with yourself.
Walk away my ass!!!

[hedgehog]

51. One of the best things that ever happened to me was the day I found out

that one of my kids' friends was a teenage alcoholic. What was so good about that? My kids had nagged her into getting her life straightened out. They saved a life before they got out of high school, and they did it with no fanfare and no adult prompting.

[seabeyond]

55. i agree. this is what i teach my children, and it is all things, not just this.

one must speak out. to at least try.

[XanaDUer]

197. Thank you.

nt.

[Odin2005]

375. Silence is complicity.

When I hear someone make a rape joke I tell the jerk that if I hear that BS out of his mouth again he'll have a black eye.

[Forkboy]

40. You old fart.

:hide:

[hedgehog]

43. The men involved in both the Duke case and the Hofstra case may

not be guilty of breaking any laws, but they aren't what I'd call "nice boys". My daughters wouldn't give them the time of day!

(How do I know? I've met the people my kids hang with.)

[RagAss]

44. Sociopathic future Repugs.

[hedgehog]

54. If they'd do that before entering a permanent relationship, why wouldn't

they do that after entering a permanent relationship?

I'd love to here the explanations to the girl friends: "it wasn't rape, honey, me and my buds just had sex with some girl we picked up."

[Gwendolyn]

101. Are you for real?

When I went to school, there was LOTS of experimentation going on. Bisexual relationships, three female roomies ganging up on some drunk cute guy one of them might have brought home... LOTS! Guess what? They aren't having affairs with their female neighbors, or having sex parties while the husband is out at work. The biggest male cheat in our crew is now the most loving, doting father of three girls.

[comrade snarky]

109. The reactions on this thread are disturbing

It's almost a "sluts are bad and should be punished" vibe around here. Male or female.

The only thing that matters is consent. The only thing. Beyond that do what you want.

God forbid some folks on DU ever find out what goes on in the leather or fetish communities. If they're this judgmental about fairly vanilla group sex then their heads would explode into finger shaking shrapnel if they learned anything about the more off beat expressions of human sexuality.

[Gwendolyn]

140. They truly are!

And it's this idea that women are ALWAYS victims because somehow they're more vulnerable and not capable of making decisions for themselves, that men are intellectually more in control of themselves, that's so sexist and insulting.

On the bright side, these threads are great for open-minded people who might occasionally consider their middle-of-the-road, vanilla sex kind of bleh. Reading the posts of the ultra-puritan DUers, most regular folks could consider themselves completely wanton, hedonistic sex kittens/puppies by comparson.

[comrade snarky]

150. Makes me feel like I've lived the life of a satanist rock star!

And it is so incredibly sexist, the idea that a woman cant give consent to some activities because they are what... unladylike?

It puts women in a box (and not a fun box) with what she can do and can't do spelled out according to one system of values. Deviate from that and you're bad.

I prefer to allow people to make their own decisions.

[Gwendolyn]

210. I agree with you completely Comrade Satan! :-)

[hedgehog]

118. Did anyone at your school ever do the homework? Between working, going to class and

homework, I was generally too exhausted for any experiments!


BTW - "three female roomies ganging up on some drunk cute guy one of them might have brought home" ?

That's never a good thing. It's analogous to decrying male teachers for hitting on female high school students but chortling art the kid who got lucky when his female teacher seduced him.

[comrade snarky]

127. I'm gonna need a list of the acceptable sexual activities

Is a threesome all right or is that debasing as well?

The situation you are describing involves the power of a teacher over a student which is why it's against the rules at any college. Illegal involving high school students.

That scenario you spin has no similarity to house-mates sharing a romp with some dude.

[hedgehog]

130. It wasn't the concept of sharing a romp with a dude, it was the concept

of ganging up on a drunk guy.



It ain't right to gang up on anyone, drunk or sober, male or female.

People who know each other very, very well may play out a fantasy, but all too often the person who isn't in control of the situation isn't in on the fantasy, either.

[comrade snarky]

141. Not right for you?

Cool, don't do it.

You don't get to decide for other people. The fellow in question could have left, I doubt he had to be restrained. There's that consent thing again.

Look, I don't know you so I'm not comfortable making pronouncements about your character but there's an authoritarian leaning on this thread that I find disturbing. So many of the arguments just come down to the "ick" factor. Honestly, it reminds me of the arguments against other forms of sexuality outside the mainstream.

[Gwendolyn]

135. It was a very good school and yes, somehow everyone managed to graduate...

... and become good citizens, despite their (apparently to some) disgusting sexual experimentation. Some people are just good at multi-tasking. In the case of teachers, these are adults taking advantage of minors so it's not tolerated.

You say it's not a good thing for three women to romp with a drunk cute guy who's totally into it. Really, and why is that? Obviously I didn't mean throwing up drunk as that would be rape, wouldn't it? The three or four times it happened, the guys sat at breakfast the next morning, lost in a happy, lust-fulfilled stupor. And who's to say that a young adult woman wouldn't also be sitting at breakfast in a lust-happy stupor following a night with two or three guys?

Some young adults might do better waiting for "the one" in order to fashion a good, lasting relationship. Others do better to get sexual curiosity out of their systems before settling down. That goes for BOTH girls and boys. Who are you or anyone else to judge the morals of others?

[liquid diamond]

180. Ganging up on some drunk cute guy?

Do you think that's alright? If it were a woman, I get the feeling that you like other posters here would be screaming rape.

[Gwendolyn]

208. I don't think a 6' guy who's had two or three beers is beyond the realm of consent...

...but it was worded badly, I admit.

I meant, at the point on a Friday night when you've relaxed after a week of being fried on studying, and you sort of know you should go home because your parents, who are paying for your education, will be arriving for brunch the next day, but you go have all-night sex with three girls anyway, the resulting dark circles and pallid no-sleep complexion be damned.

[liquid diamond]

221. If a woman has her judgment impaired by a few beers and she

regrets sleeping with a guy she finds unattractive, she could press charges for rape and would be supported by people like you. It is a double standard and bullshit.

[Gwendolyn]

257. What on earth are you talking about?

I absolutely don't think regret=rape for either sex, and in fact, a few experiences that end in regret are often the best learning experiences. If you look at any of my posts you'll see I am of the opposite opinion of those posters you're referring to.

[anigbrowl]

126. That makes no sense

Unless you assume that people basically never change throughout their lives. Nobody's suggesting you have to like it, but the contortions you are going through to label it as inherently bad are just laughable. by this logic, bisexuals would be incapable of permanent relationships too, promiscuous people would never ever settle down and son.

[SpookyCat]

139. If you are really interested in an answer, I can help.

For many of us, we have our own set of ethics and rules we live by. They are not the norm, whatever that means, but they are our guiding principles.

For me, as I stated downthread, I would not be involved with one member of a couple with out meeting the other and being certain this was acceptable to them. If it is not acceptable to one party, then it is cheating.

Also in my own relationships, I would not be with a man or a woman who demanded monogamy, because I cannot promise that. So if I agreed and then took a lover outside, I would be cheating and that is not acceptable.

I'm not ashamed of my past, so I would have no reason not to tell my partner about it. In fact, I would not be with someone who would judge me or my past/current actions. Such a person would not be a good fit for me.

If you read this, thank you. I appreciate being able to give "our" side of the story.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

192. So now the Duke players actually had a gang bang? Do you have a link to anything that supports that

[Gregorian]

45. I was held to a far higher standard

Why aim so low?

I can't find a way to put this without sounding like I'm putting someone down and placing myself on some kind of pedestal.

So I'll just go do something else. But I wish I could find a way to say that there are ways of being bigger and better than even thinking of such base activities. Make him or her volunteer at a hospital, if they even allow that these days. Get into the jazz band at school, if they even have them any more. Boy scouts? Shit, maybe things aren't what they were. I'm guessing. Still there is a way to get a kid to aim higher.

[hedgehog]

47. Why not put yourself on a pedestal? You're the only one of you there is.

Too bad so many kids think so little of themselves. It's no wonder they treat other people like shit.

[seabeyond]

57. if we have no expectation of our children, that is exactly what we will get

i agree. and we do this everywhere, including academics. one can have high expectation with element of truth, knowledge and respect of what is reasonable without putting undue or unhealthy expectation on our children

listening and talking back and forth

[Odin2005]

377. Exactly. Where are the parents?

And what are they teaching their kids? Ugh, I can't stand many of my fellow guys. WTF is wrong with people?

[southerncrone]

91. They must first have someone who they believe CARES what they DO.

We are dealing with the basest level of behavior in our kids now. It is promoted in the media to them & most have no one there to give them better advice. We are indeed living in sad times.

[Cleita]

46. I'm heartsick reading this post and the answers that this

is even an issue among fifteen year olds these days. :-(

[seabeyond]

58. my father said the same thing other day. 70 yrs old. talking about niece and lesson trying

to explain to her. on just the rightness of choice. he said would never have considered talking to us about this. i told him, today we have to talk about it all. in past all of society reinforced a behaior. today our society reinforces the not so healthy, so things that were just accepted has to be said out loud today.

[Lorien]

144. And according to some that makes you a 50 year old prudish evil feminist

Apparently being a Democrat means something different than it once did, too. It means that you're an anti feminist libertarian. :-(

[Odin2005]

378. Too many people mistake having good sense with "being hung up about sex".

Noways if you criticize vulgar hedonism, brainless spectacle, and consumerist insanity you are called "stuck up". WTF happened to intelligence and propriety? Using one's brain instead of succumbing to our baser instincts?

[Gwendolyn]

388. Do WTF you want. Has there ever been a thread denouncing love and monogamy?

No, people just object to the judgmental telling others what to do. WTF do you care what your neighbor does, or with whom? As long as they aren't beating each other to a pulp.

[Forkboy]

435. "Vulgar hedonism", "brainless spectacle".

You sound EXACTLY like Bill Bennett or someone chastising people for their "vulgar hedonism". It's fucking sad, and it sure as shit isn't intelligence on your part. Stop patting yourself on the back for sounding like a Repub.

[subcomhd]

48. Abstinence only doesn't work, he must know to use protection

and by protection, I mean a video camera.

[seabeyond]

60. is that the excuse we will give our boys to video the privacy and vulnerability of our girls, to

justify using as a trophy in lockerrooms to show manliness, to humiliate our females....?

[Chulanowa]

76. This thread is starting to look just a little... strange.

We start with, of course, "slutty girls give you herpes and accuse you of rape!" and here we are now talking about "our" women?

Did I just observe a thread full of codespeak or something? Should I get my orphan Annie decoder Ring?

[hedgehog]

78. Be fair, the poster also referred to "our boys". I think the use of the possessive

is more in the sense of "It takes a village" i.e. those we are responsible for rather than in the sense of those we own.

[Chulanowa]

417. Well, on top of everything else...

Weird thread.

[BlooInBloo]

87. "Did I just observe a thread full of codespeak or something?" - You missed the trainwreck thread.

[subcomhd]

80. it was a joke. calmate. nt

[seabeyond]

82. i can really see the joke. since it is a real problem with our teens and

males are feeling it is their right to treat girls this way, i dont really see the funny. but glad just a joke

calmate?

[subcomhd]

84. spanish for calm down. it was a joke based on current events

I really didn't think that post needed a big dripping sarcasm thingy for people to understand I wasn't literally encouraging teenagers to film orgies. jeez. and regardless, anything can be the subject of a joke. anything.

[seabeyond]

152. i make a comment on your post challenging your position and i must calm down

why would you assume i am anything but calm. all people who disagree with you agitated in your book?

seeing how we do have threads were more than a few dont see an issue with boys doing this, boys will be boys, ... no it is not a givin that is is sarcasm.

[JerseygirlCT]

106. Or have enough respect for himself and for others

that he doesn't find himself in such a situation to begin with.

[Odin2005]

381. Teens can have sex without engaging in woman-degrading behavior like gang-bangs.

It may not be rape, but it's still fucking stupid, not to say sick and wrong.

[Forkboy]

436. Why is group sex sick and wrong? Because you don't like it?

[Odin2005]

450. "gang-bang" implies simulated gang rape.

Group sex in general have don't necessarily have a problem with, but a "gang-bang" implies a bunch of guys ganging up on a woman, treating her as a sexual object to be exploited.

[Forkboy]

451. Women call it that too.

Being ganged up by a bunch of guys is kind of the point.

There are also lesbian gang bangs. What's the implication there? :shrug:

[madinmaryland]

49. My advice is to stay away from Rush Limbaugh!

First off - Yuck!

Second - What the hell was he doing in the Dominican Republic??

Third - I don't want his mind poisoned!

[RagAss]

50. I'm sure Rush will mention this thread on Monday and twist it into a leftist perversion !

[subcomhd]

83. doubtful, since it was posted by a friend of his - not a dig at trumad. just a fact

he'll tell you. although trumad is a genuine progressive liberal, he has a strange taste in running buddies.

[trumad]

215. Well it is a dig because he's not my running buddy..

I saif I know the dude and have for 17 years...It doesn't mean we're friends.

[Froward69]

52. When i was In college

there was this girl, who not only held "gang bangs" in her dorm room. but if any of the males she invited to her dorm room had sex with or found a different girlfriend than she, she immediately ran to the cops claiming rape.
sometime in our sophmore year she met the man of her dreams... (He had money) when the truth came out about her previous behavior, she again ran to say she had been raped.

I do not know what eventually happened to her after graduation. but I do know this. of the numerous men she filed rape charges against. one just got out of prison last year. (served 18 years) and at least three others eventually killed themselves because they were thrown out of school and could not get in anywhere else.

[hedgehog]

61. I'll see your anecdote, and raise you this info:

Date Rape: College's Dirty Secret


College date rape statistics are horrifying. In 1985, Mary Koss, a researcher at the University of Arizona, conducted the largest study of date rape on college campuses. Koss surveyed 32 campuses for Ms. magazine, and estimated that one in six college women become victims of rape or attempted rape - that statistic has since increased to one in four. Koss found that most rapes occurred on campus, 84 percent of the women knew their assailants, but only 27 percent realized that their sexual assault fell within the legal definition of rape. Sixteen percent said they thought what happened to them was a crime, 11 percent did not feel a crime was committed and 46 percent believed they had been victims of "serious miscommunication" rather than rape.

One in 12 college men responding to the same survey admitted committing acts that met the legal definition of rape or attempted rape, but only 1 percent of those men saw their behavior as criminal. Koss proved that sexual violence has now surpassed theft as the number one security concern at US universities.

Yet, police sources estimate that only 20 to 30 percent of all rapes are reported. Valerie was not among this 20 to 30 percent. She never told the authorities how she ended up leaving a University of Richmond off-campus fraternity party in tears. She never mentioned how a boy she knew from class forced her onto a mattress, ripped her tights to shreds and penetrated her without permission.
.....
But is this rape? Like 55 percent of the women who fall victim to rape attempts and 75 percent of their attackers, Jill had been drinking before the rape occurred. Many people may believe that a woman under the influence of alcohol is somehow more responsible for her behavior than a drunken man is for the way he may use her. Because the legal definition of rape turns on the notion of consent, any sexual contact with a woman too drunk to be capable of giving permission is technically a crime. Jill was drunk, too drunk to resist or clearly say no. There was no consent, thus no question. Jill was raped.

http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academics/journalism/magazine/4-97/features/articles/f-daterape.html



Rape is the most common violent crime on American
college campuses today. This guide describes the problem
of acquaintance rape of college students, addressing its
scope, causes and contributing factors; methods for
analyzing it on a particular campus; tested responses; and
measures for assessing response effectiveness. With this
information, police and public safety officers can more
effectively prevent the problem.
Researchers believe that college rape prevention programs,
including the most widely used ones, are insufficient. Most
rapes are unreported, perhaps giving campus
administrators and police the false impression that current
efforts are adequate. In addition, campus police may be
influenced by college administrators who fear that too
strong an emphasis on the problem may lead potential
students and their parents to believe that rape occurs more
often at their college than at others.

"Women ages 16 to 24 experience rape at rates four times
higher than the assault rate of all women,"2 making the
college (and high school) years the most vulnerable for
women. College women are more at risk for rape and other
forms of sexual assault than women the same age but not
in college. It is estimated that almost 25 percent of college
women have been victims of rape or attempted rape since
the age of 14.

Fewer than 5 percent of college women who are victims
of rape or attempted rape report it to police. However,
about two-thirds of the victims tell someone, often a friend
(but usually not a family member or college official). In
one study, over 40 percent of those raped who did not
report the incident said they did not do so because they
feared reprisal by the assailant or others.15 In addition,
some rape victims may fear the emotional trauma of the
legal process itself. Low reporting, however, ensures that
few victims receive adequate help, most offenders are
neither confronted nor prosecuted, and colleges are left in
the dark about the extent of the problem.
Many acquaintance rape victims (using the legal definition
of rape) do not label their assault as rape.

www.cops.usdoj.gov/files/RIC/Publications/e07063411.pdf

[Froward69]

95. ok i got my flame suit on

I read that study in my mid 20's and realized that a few instances in my life fell under those criteria for rape.
Including turning 18 whilst my GF was still 16 for three more months.
Waking up to find her having sex with me.
having sex with her the next night whilst she was sleeping.
waking each other with sexual favors.

A couple times where I knew someone and she had just broken up with her boyfriend. We go out for a Pity party, have a few drinks, have sex to get back at HIM. Then she claims to the back on again boyfriend,(the next day or week later) I had raped her.

as well as during my divorce. I was the one sent/sentenced to a year worth of Domestic Violence classes. Along with learning just whom was the (control freak) abuser in my marriage. (calling the cops to exert control and domination in the relationship/Divorce) The other major thing I learned is... If you apply the criteria of Domestic violence to ANY relationship, it can be labeled as dysfunctional and a Domestically violent situation.

so the advice I would give my son...
So if you are in a relationship, a disagreement breaks out. You do not wish things to escalate to a loud and abusive situation. You still cannot leave! as if She has an inkling to exert control and dominance. you will be arrested upon your return home the next day, for whatever she told the police. So your best bet son, is to lock yourself in the bathroom with the phone and call the police first.
with her screaming outside is the best way for you to stay out of jail.

Abuse is a learned behavior. BOTH men and women are abused. Women are more likely to report either real or imagined abuse to the police.
whereas men are reluctant to report actual abuse.

I have never ever struck a Woman outside of passion play. yet I have paid the price as if I had beaten her bloody.

Yes, I am happily divorced.

[Odin2005]

384. Frightening statistics. No wonder I get along better with women than with fellow guys.

This shit is so fucking common it's disgusting. :cry:

[bettyellen]

75. oh please she cause 3 suicides? i call BS unles you have links

[alcibiades_mystery]

88. Totally agreed

Massive bullshit story above.

[Froward69]

104. see #103

[Froward69]

103. I looked

and the Coloradan (ft. Collins CSU newspaper) does not archive, or rather have electronic links to articles from 1989.

[bettyellen]

111. well from your other posts, im guessing you have issues with reality, as well as women

[Froward69]

458. everyone gets a different reality

if you ask my ex she would agree with you. See to her I was the evildoer because i refused to support her cocaine addiction. as well as I refused to keep quiet over her "need" for multiple partners.

I of course am the bad guy for pursuing a (singular) relationship with a younger woman.
not to mention the child support issues with DNA proving I was not her daughters father.

that stuff does not matter does it? I am the male and therefore guilty of all the problems in the relationship.
Obviously as I did not fulfill all of HER NEEDS, I am solely responsible for the Hell that was OUR relationship.

does that fit with YOUR reality?

[hedgehog]

116. I'll take your word for what happened, but as an exception to the typical situation.

Somewhere, some time, someone has survived falling from a plane without a parachute, but that generally doesn't end well. Some girls do cry rape when there is no rape, but it is far more common for an actual victim to remain silent.

[JVS]

469. Wow! She sucks.

[Jennicut]

56. I went to college in the mid 1990's. There were tons of crazy, drunk people in my dorm.

And yes, they had orgies and did drugs. Its college, it happens. Someone once almost burned the dorm down with a lit cigarette. A drunk man was hit by a car crossing a road right outside of campus. This stuff is commonplace. Adults away from home the first time...some go crazy. I chose not too. I think the worst thing I did was try some pot at 21. I would recommend people not to get so drunk or high that they can be taken advantage of or hit by a car. You have to protect yourself, both as females and males. Some of the things I saw turned my stomach and I chose not to participate in it. You just have to be really aware.

[hedgehog]

63. Good advice, but all too often twisted into the attitude that if the girl got drunk,

what happened next was her fault.

[Jennicut]

67. Never the woman's fault.

And I had guy friends I watched out for too. Really, people can get taken advantage of when drunk so easily...I saw it happen many times. But rape is rape, regardless of who was drunk. Still, I tried to avoid bad situations. I saw how much turmoil it caused the next day when two people who were drunk barely remembered what happened. It does not always need to be rape to be a bad experience.

[seabeyond]

72. it isnt her fault she is raped

she does get to own she made herself vulnerable to situation.

like we want to teach our sons ownership in their coices and responsibilities, it applies to both genders. that means teaching our girls their own vulnerabilities to be aware of. no different than discussing with our daughters walking in a dark parking lot at night.

[hedgehog]

77. "It does not always need to be rape to be a bad experience. "

Those words should be engraved over the entrance of every high school!

[lumberjack_jeff]

107. Consent and regret are not mutually exclusive. n/t

[TexasObserver]

65. That's what I told mine, and more.

I have two sons in their mid 20s. They were teens in the 1990s. I told them many times that any time anything goes bad between a boy and a girl, the girl will be automatically believed - so don't put yourself in any situation where you can look bad. Always be aware of your circumstances and how they might appear to others.

In our house, we had rules about girls going into my sons' rooms. Most importantly, I had to hear from their parents, and I had to have their parents direct approval for their daughter to be in one of my sons' rooms. Any girl whose parent didn't give that approval didn't even get to ascend the stairs that led to the bedrooms.

I counseled them against any activity where boys outnumbered girls. The greater the disparity in boys and girls, the greater the ability to suggest bullying might have occurred, or at the very least, pack behaviors.

The most important thing to teach boys, however, is that they should never want to have sex with anyone who doesn't also want to have sex with them, and to run like hell from any situation that isn't clearly 100% knowingly consensual. Teach them to have some pride. Why in the world would anyone want to have sex with another person if that other person was not 100% in favor of such a sexual encounter?

My boys are both devoted monogamists, in sound relationships, with outstanding young women. They didn't get those relationships by being dogs, but by being good young men.

[seabeyond]

74. hugs TO

i love love love your post. right on.

[TexasObserver]

90. Thanks!

I wish things were not so harsh for our kids and their generation. The world is less forgiving now, and is more ready to criminalize everyone. These kids are at risk for arrests that never would have happened when I was their age. Whether its smoking cigs, or underage drinking, or vandalism, or just typical teen misconduct, there's a rush to label them criminal problems. Mine got through it unscathed, but I saw a lot of their friends end up with MIP (minor in possession) and other such charges that cost thousands of dollars, and for what?

I consider bad fathering to be one of the most serious problems in the country today, and ending it starts with teaching boys to be good men. High school hi jinx don't trouble me. Bad attitudes toward interactions with others, do, however. Any boy can get caught up in silly vandalism or even drug use. But hurting others, hitting others, mistreating girls - these are unacceptable behaviors, not to be tolerated.

[seabeyond]

179. agreed. sons and i driving to football game today talked about this. how honor

character cannot be confined in some areas and in other areas it is an anything goes. honor, ethics, moral, character is across the board.

i have told kids that today, not even allowed an accident. not the same in my day

again i agree with you. and though i totally agree the father has a much bigger job today than in the past, cause they dont have all of society supporting them like in the past, .... i truly believe this is a non gender issue and our females are having as challenging of a time as boys. both genders need both genders.

[Odin2005]

390. +1

[hedgehog]

81. What happened to the last 30 years of history?

We need to talk to our kids about these things:

The New Bedford rape

http://law.jrank.org/pages/3382/New-Bedford-Rape-Trial-1984.html

The Glen Ridge Rape

http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/08/03/reviews/glenridge-verdict.html

[d_b]

85. Your old man is a fraud, kid

do the right thing.

[flvegan]

92. Depending on the situation, my advice might be to call the police.

Hopefully, I would have raised a smart kid that could tell between consenting and "consenting" girl.

Not being a woman myself, I honestly have no idea if having 5 guys as once would be any kind of fun for me. As a man, the idea of "sharing" some woman with 4 other guys isn't appealing, I'd hope my son was much like me.

[omega minimo]

93. First off -- learn to respect women as human beings and build healthy relationships.

You could try teaching him that. :toast:

[Odin2005]

392. Feminism: The crazy notion that women are PEOPLE!

:hug:

[Forkboy]

437. Who can think for themselves and make their own decisions...

... without other so-called feminists judging them for it.

[Odin2005]

452. And should not be peer-pressured into "putting out", as if their only worth in life comes from...

being sex objects to be exploited. I see so much language from my fellow guys that equates sex with exploiting and "conquoring" the woman it's sickening.

[Forkboy]

453. Only this girl wasn't peer presseured into doing this.

When it happens, your anger is justified.

[Odin2005]

454. The exception that proves the rule.

[Forkboy]

456. That's just being trite, Odin.

And proves nothing. You simply must make assumptions for this stuff to fit into the world you've let your anger create. I hope you can work it out, and I mean that with no snark intended as I see a lot of me in you (hope that doesn't totally freak you out), and I had to work mine out too.

[lumberjack_jeff]

96. I have a nephew who got served with paternity papers.

Turns out it was one of the other four guys. Lucky him.

[bettyellen]

113. would you ever have suspected him of that behaviour?

[lumberjack_jeff]

132. Actually, yes.

I'd "suspect" it of most young men, frankly. A girl who wants sex generally doesn't have to ask twice. Everything else is details.

[bettyellen]

449. "she wanted it" most teens boys aren;t real concerned about a her wants.

just sayng. like in the hofstra case 4 guys in an hour? that's jut crap for most women, no way is it about she wants.

[lumberjack_jeff]

478. In the Hoftstra case, she suggested it. n/t

[bettyellen]

485. of course these guys said to their Moms it's the sluts idea, you honestly expected something else?

we have no idea what happened. whether she was sober enough, whether she agreed to screw more than one, any of it.
we can't know.

[Froward69]

99. As well as threesomes...

as Someone will get jealous eventually.

[renie408]

102. You know, you wouldn't think you would have to explain that to somebody...

But just in case, I guess I need to say something to my son, too.

[Hutzpa]

105. Maybe she likes been

gang rape, some women can be dirty like that, ever thought of that.

:evilgrin:

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

110. How the hell does that even come up?

I think my dad neglected that issue in our little chats,

[subcomhd]

164. No shit, I'm trying to imagine my Dad (RIP) and I

sitting down and having the ol' father-son orgy talk.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

187. my dad was uncomfortable enough as it was talking about condoms

Although the "your uncle makes pornography for a living" chat at age eleven would be one for America's Most Awkward Home Videos as "your uncle makes movies" had ceased to be an adequate answer at that age.

[subcomhd]

195. That's the funniest thing I've read all day. True? nt

[BlooInBloo]

199. You said "father-son orgy" - heh-heh. heh-heh.

[TwilightGardener]

191. LOL--geez, haven't thought to bring this up with my kids, either.

And I don't think I will...

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

196. if this topic isn't a joke...

I think I am cool with the recent news I am likely infertile.

[seabeyond]

205. there are a lot of things parent need to discuss with children today we didn't in past. abortion

at very young ages before they are even close to being able to understand. son read bumper stickers about not killing babies. well ya... that doesn't sound to nifty. and kids telling him liberals kill babies. have to go into discussion as lightly and delicately as a parent can with a child that takes pride in being informed and inquisitive.

lots of things today we talk about cause was a given before and not so much anymore. so society as a whole doesn't promote it as they did in the past.

[SpookyCat]

112. Don't like group sex? Don't have it.

*Warning: if different sexual preferences offend you, don't read the post below.*

I had a lot of fun in my younger days, a lot of partners, a lot of leather, a lot of consensual pain, some edge play, mind fucking and many many orgies.

Some of these people were strangers in a club, some were my dear friends who were, as they say "with benefits"

Some were in the privacy of homes, some on stage at Exotic Erotic.

My body, my preferences, my choice. Period.

I had my own set of boundaries and did not waver on them. No one took advantage of me and no one forced me to do anything.

I am 41, have a wonderful husband and am as settled as I will ever be. And yes, I would do again, right now.

And I have NO regrets. Not one.

I don't care what people think about this, it's their issue, not mine. I just laugh and look back at photos (jesus, I was thin then!) and smile at the memories.

Clutch your pearls and fan your face, makes no difference to me.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

120. "Clutch your pearls and fan your face"

:rofl:

:loveya:

Although if I had a 15 year old kid, I'd be telling them not to participate in group sex too!

As for adults, you are correct... it's their business.

[SpookyCat]

124. Oh yes, I agree on that.

A 15 year old is quite different, I am with you on that.

I'm just disturbed by the intolerant and judgmental turn this thread has taken.

Glad I gave you a chuckle! :hug:

[jesus_of_suburbia]

142. "I'm just disturbed by the intolerant and judgmental turn this thread has taken."

I agree.

:pals:

[tammywammy]

216. Ditto. n/t

[hedgehog]

121. No one would have any problem if everyone who ends up having group sex

did so with full consent while stone cold sober.

[comrade snarky]

122. Removed Post

Because spooky put it better :-)

[SpookyCat]

123. Idealy that would be true,

but upthread people are calling folks like me sociopaths and whatnot, for what is fundamentally a difference of personal boundries and preference. Someone even put consent in quotes.

Just want to put out there (no pun intended) that that is simply bullshit. Are there creeps in the leather community? You bet!

Are there creeps in the
banking
parks and rec
dog show
ballroom dancing...

communiites?

Yuppers.

I just felt that the freaks among us needed defending. :hi:

[hedgehog]

138. The sociopath accusation comes in when there is any hint of coercion

and/or inability to give consent due to mental impairment or illness.

Some people like group sex, and that's fine as long as no one gets hurt. My question is, even among consenting adults, how often does group sex or partner swapping or what have you end up in someone getting hurt?

(By getting hurt, I mean when one person involved starts feeling discarded by the others.)

[SpookyCat]

148. I can't really say how often it happens that someone gets hurt.

And thanks for telling me which kind of hurt you meant, so this will be a shorter answer. ;)

I am sure it does happen, we're talking about humans and human emotions/expectations.

I can tell you only from my experience and my little tribe. We had a lot of fun and enjoyed each others company and for us sex or play (leather) was simply an extension of this. I have no recollection of anyone being hurt. Not to say there wasn't the occational hey, I'm way over here, what's up? But then we'd laugh, make room and have fun.

Now one relationship I had did end badly. One couple who brought me in only to discover that the woman in the pair was not bisexual like me, she was actually gay. They split up in the end.

So I guess what I'm laboring to say is that in any human relationship there is risk, anytime you put your heart or even your lust out there you make yourself vulnerable. Sometimes you get hurt. Sometimes you don't. But I don't think this is exclusive to "naughty" sex at all.

I'm hoping that some on this thread have just never encountered people like me, and by answering some of these posts maybe I can take some of the misconceptions away.

We freaks are typically pretty harmless, unless there is a safe word involved! LOL!

[Warren DeMontague]

287. How many times does that happen in "normal", vanilla relationships?

Good grief- if there's one thing I would suspect you see less of in these alternative arrangements, it's the deceit that so often accompanies your standard monogamous situations, particularly where fundamentalist religion is involved (witness Mark Sanford)

If everyone involved is on the same page and upfront -as I suspect you would have to be, in one of these situations- about what they're there for beforehand, I would think there's LESS chance of someone 'getting hurt'.

[hootinholler]

303. The upthread reads more like a sociopath assumption to me.

That's how it made me feel. I'm off shortly to my sociopathetic party. Where no just happens to mean exactly what it means. Oh we've all known about it for weeks now, and have been looking forward to playtime.

Do people get hurt? Well, yeah, they're people. There's the hurt from being rejected, but usually rejection is done politely as impolite people generally are not invited back.

Now I've never been anywhere that a gang rape happened spontaneously, and would feel a duty to do something about it. Note I said Gang Rape, I have been at a party and a gang bang broke out. So have daisy chains ;)

Lack of actual consent is rape.

-Hoot

[Warren DeMontague]

283. Right, because every consenting adult who has partnered, one-on-one sex is stone cold sober

every single fucking time, absolutely, no question.

:eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

136. As long as you are a CONSENTING ADULT

and in full control of your decisions, I don't give a rats ass.

But if you are drunk... and given certain drugs in schools... that is date rape and it is a common problem in Colleges across the US.

But as an adult... in full control, go for it. At least wear protection, for the STDs and AIDs, but after that... have fun.

[Hello_Kitty]

154. Good for you.

Rule Number One Of The Internets: If a post isn't about you, then it it isn't about you.

[comrade snarky]

171. Oh I see...

So it's a case of "I didn't say you're bad, I just said people who do the things you have done are bad, bad sociopaths."

Got it.

[Hello_Kitty]

188. I think people who rape are bad.

As are people who pressure and/or coerce other people into sex acts. Less bad than a brutal rapist but still pretty bad. If you're not doing that, you're not bad and it's not about you. Still, some situations are best to stay out of even when there appears to be consent. Like a "gang bang" at a college dorm with a lot of alcohol involved.

[comrade snarky]

241. You may not have noticed

But this thread has gone from "Don't get involved in a drunken gang bang in a bathroom" (good advice) to "People having sex outside what I think is OK are bad and they should be shunned."

That's when I speak up.

[seabeyond]

244. lol, i was in beginning of thread. liking direction

then it shifted. lol.

that happens.

[SpookyCat]

185. It IS good for me! You're right!

Darling, the comments have gone to a place that is personal for me. I felt the need to defend the freaks and the best way that I can do that is with personal experience, which I find to be a more useful means of explaining a differing point of view.

I notice you don't take any umbrage with the people who are using personal anecdotes to explain why they are intolerant? Hmmm...

[Hello_Kitty]

206. Umbrage? Where did I take umbrage?

You want a cookie for sharing your experience? Fine, here's a cookie.

And the thing is, darling, that you really don't know if every single person you participated in various types of group and BDSM sex with was fully consenting. You can only assume, and hope, they were.

[liquid diamond]

211. "Look at me! I've screwed multiple men at the same time!"

Nice response to that post. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[SpookyCat]

225. Missed my point completely, but I'm glad you got a giggle. It's good to laugh.

[SpookyCat]

222. Thanks, I likes cookies! mmmmmmmmm

[liquid diamond]

207. I'm glad people like you are rare. No regrets? Heh.

Have you told the man you're with now about your little adventures?

[tammywammy]

214. Liberal tolerance is so kind. n/t

[seabeyond]

217. pearls and fanning faces... it is a two way street, right? nt

[SpookyCat]

232. Well, this sub thread is going to be deleted soon I bet...so before it is..

"pearls and fanning faces" is not intolerance, it's a hyperbolic characterization of people responding to things that may shock them.

Accusing a group of people you don't know anything about of being sociopaths, rapists, and/or wishing ill on them is intolerance.

[seabeyond]

238. it was a dig. jsut as the dig that if you arent into group sex, just dont have as much fun

that is all. one shouldnt assume that one person sexual life is less satisfying because they are not into the same as another. just like it is wrong for some of the posters to be posting what they are to you. you made a jab at others.

if my sons are into group sex, they will have been taught to be respectful of fellow human being, including females. and since it has been that lesson in all things in this house, respect.... they are pretty good at recognizing how to be respectful for another, in any given situation, including sex.

i think that is the point of many posters on this thread. not a judgment of group sex per se.

[SpookyCat]

286. It was not a dig, but carry on.

And I very clearly stated in another post that what I like is different, not better, not worse, different. At no time did I claim my way is better, not one time did I even imply that.

I am not a fan of one size fits all in anything. If you are happy doing what you do, then I am happy for you.

[seabeyond]

289. I am not a fan of one size fits all in anything.... me either. to be fair

the one that stated having so much more fun than others was posted to you i believe. the june cleaver and pearls and fannin self was yours. sorry if i didnt make clear.

[SpookyCat]

297. No problem, this cast of characters has gotten confusing!

For the record, Ward and June was from my husband Comrade, pearls and fans from me.

I know you don't agree, but maybe take me at my word that that was not intended as a jab, just a funny visual of the folks who might not be as familiar with the counterculture. Honestly, there are things within my little world that make ME clutch my pearls and fan myself! LOL!

It's a funny picture to me, that's all. I think most things are funny.

Believe me, if it was meant as a jab, I would say so. You don't know me well I think, but I am not generally coy. :)

[comrade snarky]

227. Hello, yeah she has

You know like where spooky said she values honesty.

We've both shared our pasts and I don't care. We've made some wonderful new memories that would I'm sure make you "clutch your pearls". Now that I think about it... that sounds nasty.

Does that not fit in with your preconceived notions?

[liquid diamond]

237. Interesting. Most women that brag about all the men they have slept

with sound so bold until they are asked about their past. They then usually reply with "It's none of your business." If you have no regrets then why be so secretive. It's not the case here, but I'm just asking.

[comrade snarky]

249. Well maybe the people asking about it

Are nanny busybodies who will harshly judge them for doing what they wanted to and hurting no one?


Nah... that never happens.

[liquid diamond]

274. Or they might think their woman is disease-ridden, insecure, or lacks restraint.

Your reasons may apply as well.

[comrade snarky]

278. Sure, as I said, they could be judgmental harridans

Who cant accept that anyone would be different from that without it being a failure on the others part.

You know, people Like you.

[liquid diamond]

282. Having multiple sex partners isn't merely being different.

Talk about an understatement. There is usually more going on in that person's life than being "different".

[Forkboy]

"There is usually more going on in that person's life than being "different". "

Such as?

[comrade snarky]

294. You know, they're bad.

It's icky and that makes them bad and wrong.

Come one come all! It's DU sexual issues on parade!

See the foot fetish tent! Marvel at the people different from you! Step right up and pass judgment! Come on up and be rude to the the people trying to explain another viewpoint! Don't get too close son they probably have diseases!

[Forkboy]

295. You just nailed it.

That's exactly what it is. The ones with issues aren't the ones talking openly about their sex lives. :scared:

[comrade snarky]

301. Ahhh, sense.

You haz some

[Gwendolyn]

309. You are a scream!

:D

And you and SpookyCat seem like good people.

[comrade snarky]

428. Thanks Gwendolyn! I appreciate that.

In the midst of all... well, this.

I would have replied earlier but Spooky and I went to an opera simulcast at the ballpark. Now there's some perversion for you! All that brother killin, baby burnin, coercive sex madness from Verdi!

Aha, the classics.

[Shell Beau]

311. You are beyond judgmental.

If Spooky were a man, he'd be high-fived for all the good times he had, but no she is a woman so she is a whore. Just say it.

[liquid diamond]

352. Wrong. I harbor no such double standard. Next?!

[SpookyCat]

256. I'm not bragging, I'm attempting to explain another POV and

defend "people like THAT!"

There's been a lot of pretty vile things said about sex positive people on this thread which is why I jumped in.

I find that it is easier to hate/disparage a group of people if you don't know anything about them. Well, now you do. I'm trying to express my reality as honestly and openly as I can in order to get some clarity behind it. I'm hoping to at least try to open minds and a dialog if it can be civil.

It's fine if you don't know anyone like me (I'm not that rare, btw...) but to just dismiss what I'm trying to say as bragging is to miss my point entirely.

[liquid diamond]

279. Honestly, I don't know too many women that have engaged in

the extreme sexual acts that you have. If you aren't that rare, women are very secretive about their sex lives. But hey this is the internet! :rofl:

[comrade snarky]

293. How dare anyone be different!

Shocking!

Persecute the unbeliever!

[Shell Beau]

315. Or you hang out with a bunch of prudes.

Get over it. People choose different things. Whatever. How many men do you know that have have multiple sex partners? Ooooooh yeah, I forgot. That is ok. Dumb me.


And this comes from a woman whose husband was her first. Get off of your high horse, or go where you really belong.

[Forkboy]

229. I wish people like you were rarer.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

231. jinx!

[Forkboy]

234. Heh!

:)

[SpookyCat]

236. ......

:hug:

I'm used to it. I just laugh and enjoy my life.

[Ignis]

481. +1

[La Lioness Priyanka]

230. the problem is people like you should be rare but unfortunately aren't. such a pity. nt

[liquid diamond]

240. *yawn* says you.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

242. yes, i do. nt

[liquid diamond]

247. *shrug*

[Shell Beau]

318. I think you misspelled the site you were looking for.

It starts with an "f" not a "d". I am thinking you don't belong here. JMO. Judgmental asses are usually found on another site. It is a republican site. Perhaps you have heard of it.

[liquid diamond]

349. Ah, yes. Someone disagrees, so I'm a freeper. Wow, how original.

I've never heard that before!

[Shell Beau]

373. It isn't about disagreeing. I disagree with some others in this thread,

but the things you say are offensive and nasty. And I don't really see anyone here agreeing with your comments. I see you taking other comments to spout off.

[liquid diamond]

386. Others have stated offensive and nasty things here. Why focus

on me? Because you don't agree. That's why. I notice how when posters disagree with Obama, they are sometimes called freepers. It's old. Get some new material. Just because others don't agree with me on an issue, does not mean I'm going to conform. Free thinking and speech. What a fucking concept. And to think there are those here claiming it's alright to be different. Thy name is hypocrisy.

[Shell Beau]

389. Or you are in fact an ignorant freeper.

[liquid diamond]

391. *yawn* boooring.

Disagreement = freeper. Got it. Toodles.

[Shell Beau]

394. Glad to know you got something.

Toodles.

[Warren DeMontague]

285. Hey--- Nice photo.

Little advice, tho? Purple's not your color.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

223. ..

:thumbsup: i am glad you enjoyed your life and have no regrets and dont let the sexist, sex negative idiots tell you otherwise.

[SpookyCat]

226. ....

:hug:

I don't. I laugh a lot and enjoy myself anyway. It's all anyone can do.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

228. i am glad you dont let this "does your man know" sexist shit upset you

:hug:

[comrade snarky]

233. Funny thing is it doesn't upset me in the least

Some people need to let go of the "Everyone should be Ward and June Cleaver" crap. I'm sure the poster above will have a hard time believing anything outside their own limited experience though.

Also funny how I'm not telling them their relationships are wrong.



Ohhh Nooooooo! My marriage is being disparaged by people I have never met!

Swoon!

[seabeyond]

243. "Everyone should be Ward and June Cleaver"

this is the point. talking out of both sides of mouth. saying not talking about "their" relationship as you exactly do. talking about what is being said about you as you do the same. an equal dig.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

246. it wasnt a dig at all. you're just finding ways to excuse your narrow mindedness. nt

[seabeyond]

251. where is my narrowmindedness? yes, it is a jab. this poster knows it was when she made it

she is into honesty, which i totally respect. surely it isnt hard to admit that is a jab. pretty clear. doesnt hurt to call it what it is.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

258. its not at all a jab. its very clearly a defense of people who do have multiple sexual partners

but do not deserve any of the pejoratives that have been used against them in this thread.

[seabeyond]

264. i see it as an intended jab. tell me, what person would not feel insulted by the june cleaver

mentality. i do not know a single person. and i know that the people on du that use that term do not mean it in a complimentary manner by any means.

the person explained her position, and good for her. it was intersting and i value her perspective, seeing from other eyes. i didnt feel it necessary to say a single thing to her. until conversation turned to one way street. i then pointed out to poster tis a two way street, in not being insultive. the peral and fanning was insultive. meant to be. as she validated her position. wasnt necessary. those imposing their morality on her decisions was just as bad.

that is all

i am not in this subthread for any other reason

[La Lioness Priyanka]

270. you're always in anti-sex subthreads dearest. at least this time you refrained from calling me a

stripper or a sex worker or something like that.

[seabeyond]

275. cant point out the narrowmindedness you accuse me of. where have i been anti sex. anywhere?

nowhere.

dearest.

[comrade snarky]

262. Bull, and it was me who used Ward and June

And I stand by it.

It's shorthand for the standard relationship we were all supposed to be in. You and others on this thread have drawn an arbitrary line and decided anything outside that line is bad.

If you found it insulting, that all about you.

[seabeyond]

269. have i? i am talking about teaching our children to think things thru

and not to abuse one another. to be responsible for their action. please show me where i have drawn an arbitrary line.

[comrade snarky]

288. Here you go

"i am seeing the posts about stds, rape charges, which is to have boy

Edited on Sat Sep-19-09 08:53 AM by seabeyond
think twice thru fear. what lacks is the teaching boy about respecting another person. yes, even with her consent, the degradation and having the character to not be a part of using another human.

that is what lacks.

teaching boys character that will stay with them, in their control and lesson not of fear, but being more.


See how you say that group sex, even with freakin consent, is degrading? Therefore people who engage in such activities are degrading themselves. So recreational sex is using people?

There's your line. From what I've read anyway.

[liquid diamond]

245. You know many guys would bolt if they found out their woman

was once sexually promiscuous with no shame. I could understand some women sleep around as a result of being sexually abused, but not in this case.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

250. i know that a lot of men are very sexist. this is not particularly shocking to me , nt

[comrade snarky]

254. Would you mind explaining what the fuck you are talking about here

Before I hit the alert button?

And what the fuck is this "Their woman" bullshit?

[liquid diamond]

259. Touchy much?

:rofl: If that offends you, alert away. :rofl:

[comrade snarky]

267. You're the one who claimed

Any sexually active woman must have been molested and implied an ownership relationship between men and women.

On second thought I'd rather let that idiocy stand for all to see.

No alert from me. :hi:

[liquid diamond]

284. very well.

[comrade snarky]

291. Just for the lurkers

I'd like to point out there is no explanation of the reprehensible post above.

[SpookyCat]

261. These are not men I would pursue in any way.

In fact, such creatures are not in my world.

As to your last comment there? Not sure what it was supposed to mean, but those are your issues, not mine.

And since you're obviously not interested in "hearing" anything I say, I bid you adieu.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

265. yes, i have found men who care about the number of lovers you have had to be people

i wouldnt want as a friend or a lover.

as a woman who dates women, i dont care how many lovers my wife has had prior to me. i dont understand what is so complicated about that.

[comrade snarky]

271. It's just weird isnt it?

[SpookyCat]

280. I don't either. It just isn't complicated at all.

I don't understand why people on our side don't just agree to disagree. What works for you is what you do.

Ah well. Thanks for speaking up on this one, you and Forkboy! :hug:

[liquid diamond]

290. Good, because you obviously wouldn't be a match. That's my point. duh.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

292. because we were all asking you for match making advice when you asked her if her man knows?

also, the use of d'uh, is only appropriate if you are under 18. which i hope you are given your asinine way of making an argument

[SpookyCat]

299. You are hillarious! "duh" hehehhehehee! Thanks for the giggles!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

300. let us all hope he is 16, when he grows up his attitude toward women and sexuality will evolve. nt

[SpookyCat]

302. Judging by the tread, oh..nevermind...LOL!

[Shell Beau]

320. Or he/she/it/idiot goes back to freeperville where they clearly belong.

How is this poster still here?

[liquid diamond]

307. I'm here to please.

[Shell Beau]

319. Go home. For real though. You suck.

[babythunder]

503. I seriously love your post!

We need more people with your perspective in these types of threads. This is in response to Spookiecat's original post

[Hello_Kitty]

145. Apparently, it's a very popular porn trope these days.

But yeah, good advice.

[Forkboy]

151. It's not exactly a new trend. Ask Caligula.

[Hello_Kitty]

153. So what? I didn't say it was new. I said it's a popular theme in porn right now.

And what's popular in porn tends to become what a lot of men expect from women IRL.

[Forkboy]

157. I just wanted to say Caligula.

[Swamp Rat]

273. LOLOL!!!

:rofl:

[Forkboy]

276. I can always count on you!

:D

[Quantess]

155. Sounds like a bad After School Special.

It reminds me of "Strangers With Candy" on Comedy Central.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6epnDpt0Qg

[rangerdavid]

156. seriously?

just say no.

[LostInAnomie]

204. In general, that's a very good idea.

In my experience, most of the women I've known that have been willing to have a train pulled on them were a long way from balanced. With rape charges being a life destroying consequence, it's best to just stay away.

[Odin2005]

396. IMO guys that like gang-bangs are probably not the most enlightened individuals.

Guys participating in a gang-bang are all misogynistic assholes, consent be damned.

[Forkboy]

438. What are women who engage in gang bangs?

There are times when the genders are the other way around and it's multiple women on one man. What are those woman to you, Odin? Whores? Sluts? Too stupid to make their decisions? Misguided? Too dumb to realize they're supposed to be victims instead of enjoying themselves?

Do you realize how presumptuous it is of you to make yourself the defacto protector of women while acting like you, a man, knows what's best for them?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

224. i think teaching the kid to understand that consent can only be given in sobriety

will probably go a long way too.

[blondeatlast]

248. Scary that this thread went this long before someone pointed that rather

obvious point.

Thanks for the wisdom.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

255. ...

:) why point out the problem with intoxicated "consent" when degrading people with multiple sexual partners is so much more fun

[blondeatlast]

272. Exactly, and getting the added bonus of making teenage girls out to be vindictive

and manipulative.

I love this place, but every day I'm astonished at how much backward thinking exists among "progressives."

[La Lioness Priyanka]

281. yes, given the HUGE amount of under reported rapes, the fact that people

think most men are getting accused of rape without any basis is laughable

in addition, i wonder how many people have gang bangs thinking their parents would approve. as advice goes, this is pretty shitty only because of its uselessness

[harkadog]

316. What is your definition of "sobriety"?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

376. well besides the legal definition, when someone is visibly intoxicated

most people, even college kids can tell

[harkadog]

395. There is no legal definition when it come to consent

To compare the standards for drunk driving with consent to sex is ridiculous. "Visibly intoxicated" is extremely subjective. Everyone would have a different standard.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

399. while there are laws about intoxication and consent, i cant see why it would be so hard

for a father to teach his kid when a girl/guy is too drunk/high to give consent. it seems a very basic moral standard to pass on to a child: dont take advantage of people.

[marshall]

239. Or if you can't abstain, use a condom AND a video camera

And a signed consent form wouldn't be a bad idea either.

[armyowalgreens]

253. Epic fail.

[JVS]

266. Killjoy! Prude!

[burning rain]

277. That's good advice.

It's more fun to go out with a male friend and find a couple girls who want to take turns with you, anyway.

[LeftyMom]

308. There's a conversation sure to get a lot of couch time in therapy later.

Great parenting there. :rofl:

[LWolf]

312. This is advice it never occurred to me to give my sons.

To be picky? Yes.

To use condoms no matter what? Yes.

To treat partners with respect? Yes.

Not that young men always listen to their mother about these matters, lol.

The first two? Son # 1 listened, son # 2 did not, which is why I have a grandson, why he suffered 4 years of hell with his mother and more years of separation trauma after she lost her rights to him.

Treating partners with respect? Always.

My sons, given the opportunity to participate in a "gang bang," are likely to bang the heads of the "bangers" together.

They take abuse seriously.

[tjwash]

317. Okay...who let TRUMAD out of the sports forum?

:spank:

[Odin2005]

321. It just seems sick and exploitative, consent be damned.

The the name of the act suggests simulated gang rape. and if the woman is drunk, as another poster said, it quite likely IS rape. So just don't do it.

Then again I'm a prude that thinks sex without love is fucking (forgive the the pun) boring, kinda like masturbating with another person than anything else. Mayve that's just me, but sex is SOO much more fun when its with someone you are in love with. :shrug:

[Codeine]

367. Sex with love is great.

Sex without love is great too.

Sex is just plain great.

[tammywammy]

370. Yep n/t

[Gwendolyn]

398. Ain't that a fact!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

405. truth. nt

[RagAss]

322. Well, DU has officially hit rock bottom.

[Shell Beau]

323. Ok, I feel if you teach your child respect of all humans

this kind of falls into that category.

But after reading this gross thread, I am shocked that there are some people who are still here. There is a site called Free Republic. It is for assholes. Apparently some people here (one, specifically) who took wrong turns and ended up here. Get out please. You are a gross excuse for a human. Take your judgmental crap somewhere else. I can't imagine it would be welcomed here. Hmmm, but maybe it is....

[trumad]

379. Honestly---my intent when I started this thread was about respect and making right decisions...

I'm a bit shocked that some are dissing me for teaching a young man how to make right decisions if he is ever faced with a situation like this.

If he's in a college dorm or a party and something like this occurs, he needs to be aware of the consequences if he get's involved.

Some say he should try and stop it---and there is some merit to that for sure. But then again---if the woman has soberly consented, then what is he to do.

He has a choice---and that is---jump in and pray it works out--- jump in and catch an STD---or jump in and 6 hours later get a knock on the door and it's the police arresting him for rape.

My advice to him is that it is not worth it---keep your dick in your pants and leave.

Simple advice---that's all.

[Shell Beau]

387. Well the second part of my post was not directed at you.

This thread seemed to take on a whole other topic.

[Odin2005]

400. Too many people think prudence and respect for women makes you "hung up about sex".

It's pathetic. This thread makes me think that the whole "free love" idea was an epic fail. It just leads to STDs, rape, and behavior that is all around degrading to women.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

402. rape exists in much larger numbers in countries that women have never has sexual freedom

(and in some countries so is HIV/AIDS by the way)

[Odin2005]

409. I never said anything about restricting sexual freedom.

I was criticizing the "wild crazy sex is good" attitude. If you get off on that stuff fine, but don't expect me to support it in the name of "sexual freedom".

[La Lioness Priyanka]

439. it is integrally part of sexual freedom. freedom means to be free to do.

freedom doesnt mean only free to do as much as odin 2005 deems correct

[seabeyond]

440. isnt freedom allowed to do though a person may not agree with it. or is it

that one must agree with all for it to be freedom?

now note my words closely. i am not arguing group sex at all. not judging or even making comment on it. i am addressing perception of sexual freedom.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

441. one cannot correlate sexual freedom with rape because its an incorrect correlational

which is what i was arguing. let alone make a causal leap.

one is free to be a virgin or free to have hundreds of partners. its what freedom is.

[seabeyond]

442. he was talking not condoning wild and crazy sex. so i dont get where the rape is

but that wasnt my question. you say one is free to be a virgin or have a hundred partners. i agree. but again, that isnt what i am talking about

the virgin thinks having a hundred partners is wrong. does that mean they are restricting sexual freedom? arent they merely disagreeing with something, not condoning something, and arent they equally allowed to have that attitude. or must they say, i prefer to be a virgin, but there is nothing wrong with a hundred sex partners

because if that is the case i do not see it go both ways

i see people advocating a free for all with as many sneers to those that arent for free for all, regardless of their reasoning.

so i see people not different on either side of the issue, in behavior.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

446. yes. ofcourse that is what you would see. read what he said, maybe you'll see what i was arguing

against. maybe you wont, because you're too busy seeing what you want to see. either way i am doing having this conversation with you. its boring me.

[seabeyond]

447. so basically, i can suggest you are doing exactly what you are accusing me of doing. nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

448. no, because i went through the thread and i see one defense of people who enjoy multiple partners

which you insist on seeing as a jab. thought the person who wrote it clearly explained why she did it. multiple times.

you can accuse me of whatever you want to, it will be incorrect. much like the last time you accused me of being a stripper/sex worker. you were wrong then too.

[omega minimo]

460. If that's true, where in your OP is there mention of respect for women?

That would be a basic point to help him sort out these sorts of "decisions"

Respect and building relationships would support your son making good choices.

[TiberiusGracchus]

339. Worst part is if your son was caught sleeping with 5 girls at the same time he would become a hero

...while a girl would be marred and humiliated for life.

I remember thinking that during that movie with jeff bridges "The Contender". A fictional female senator was being confirmed as a new vice president when a scheming republican (played amazingly by Gary Oldman) digs up a video of her in a college frat gangbang (which was fake).

I remember thinking, if that video was of a male senator in Yale having sex with five consenting women before he was married, he would get a nudge and a wink and a pass at youthful indiscretion.

[Codeine]

369. I know a few women who like group sex.

Nobody has the slightest negative opinion of them at all. Each is successful, hard-working, well-balanced, and happy. They just happen to dig something that most folks don't.

[flvegan]

374. This thread has officially not gone well.

[trumad]

382. Sorry about that...

I never intended it not to go well...

Hell---It's just simple advice to my son....

[flvegan]

385. Oh

I'm not blaming you. Hell, my first response far, far above had me hoping my son (had I a son) to evaluate if he needed to call the police.

[TexasObserver]

403. recommend

[josephmink]

410. Good advice

Good luck

[Lagomorph]

429. You people would have been strict conservative Republicans in the 60's and 70's.

The Summer of Love was an orgy as well as a cultural event.

Summer passed, but the orgy went on for years. Whole families showed up Mom, Dad & the kids. People of all ages ran around naked without supervision. Some of them went on to elected office. Some of them are still there. They aren't republicans.

[trumad]

432. LOL

No---but they act like them.

[BolivarianHero]

443. I smoke a fair amount of weed...

I'm an A student in political science, I've never committed a violent or sexual crime in my life, and I have never vandalized anything...

[seabeyond]

444. bully for you. pat you on the back. hey....

people say i am a good mom and i get a pat on the back for that. my thought

isnt it suppose to be a given and not a pat on the back moment. isnt it just what we are suppose to do

lots and lots of boys make good decisions, non hurtful decisions thru out life. and many many girls make responsible choices.

people who like to make all boys out to be something are wrong.

[name not needed]

455. WILL SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?

[LanternWaste]

486. That a thread about advice to your son...

That a thread about your own advice to your own 15 year old son about sexual promiscuity turns into a bloody flame war implies quite a lot about how "far" we've come.

God forbid you ever post about your advice to him re: The Beatles.... :evilgrin:

[Skittles]

497. THANK YOU