If being disgusted by gay sex makes one homophobic...

[Forkboy]

..and I tend to think it does...what does being disgusted by group sex (or any sex that is different from your personal tastes) make somebody?

I've noticed two things in the current threads on the Hofstra deal. One, most of the complaining is about the TYPE of sex, and two, many who think they're standing up for the woman are treating her like a simpleton to dumb to make her own decisions.

The former is what prompted my initial question. I've heard quite a few men (and even some women) say that sex between men absolutely disgusts them, even going so far as to say it makes them want to puke. I also know women who say the same about lesbian sex. I've even seen comments to that effect here on DU a few times over the years. It's usually pointed out that it's either flat out homophobic, or at the very least offensive to those having the sex, when someone says that it disgusts them (rightfully so, I believe). For me, it's not my interest, but it also doesn't disgust me, and if I don't want to do it I just don't do it. Live and let live, and all that jazz. I certainly don't think it's evil or sick. But some have no problems thinking this about any hetero act of sex that doesn't work for them.

Now, I'm assuming (always dangerous, I know, but this seems safe) that almost all of us here believe in gay rights and don't think of their sex lives as evil and sick and wrong. But when it comes to hetero sex it seems many expect that it has to be one man, one woman, and one position (can't be drinking either, apparently). If the sex had been between five drunken men or five drunken women would we be seeing comments calling these people evil?

If people are consenting adults, does it really matter what they choose to do or not do? It is really any of our business? And who are we to judge anyways? I don't think people not into alternate things are prudes, but I do think some come across as extremely judgmental of people engaging in behavior that does nothing more than not appeal to them. And that's not what I think liberals should be like, imo.


On the second point of feminism, this is the one aspect of it that I see a lot, especially lately as the older feminists are now kind of clashing with younger ones, that I simply don't get. By treating the women as being too immature or too foolish to make her own decisions, or too not the feminist you wish they were, isn't that being degrading to them and their intelligence when you know nothing about that person, their motivations, their desires, background or goals? Isn't it contradictory to tell someone they should respect a woman's intelligence while in essence telling some women "I know better than you"?

Ok, that's it. Try to solve this issue by kickoff, will ya? :evilgrin:

[liberal N proud]

1. What other people do is their business

It is none of my business what two (or more) consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes or hotel rooms.

[msongs]

2. its not the action, its the lies n deceit that may accompany it IMO nt

[Forkboy]

8. Lies and deceit don't accompany the act all the time. Rarely, in actuality.

In fact, with most people, without openness and honesty it doesn't happen in the first place.

[Beer on a stick]

234. Ha! How would you know?

[Forkboy]

281. Ha! How do you?

[Beer on a stick]

389. I'm not claiming that I do, but I'm also not making these grand....

sweeping generalizations, either.

[Forkboy]

393. Well thanks for setting me straight.

[theoldman]

3. I had to dig deep on this one.

I think that men are not turned off by lesbian sex because lesbians tend to do the same things that men do to women. Perhaps it's anal sex that turns off both men and women. Different folks, different strokes.

[pipi_k]

9. Exactly!

I don't care who's doing it...anal sex, to me, is just the most disgusting thing in the world.

Lesbian sex...eh...not so much.

Maybe it's just the whole penetration/violation thing, even if it's consensual.

[Forkboy]

11. Oh, I know most men aren't turned off by that.

And there's nothing wrong with being turned off by something as long as we don't judge the people who are.

[ruggerson]

363. newsflash

lots of straight people have anal sex.

[stray cat]

4. Sorry - but I think wanting to watch others is sick anyway

[Forkboy]

12. You kind of missed the point there.

[renie408]

16. I think the point is that nobody really cares what you 'think'.

And that maybe you could keep your thoughts to yourself. Or that you could say, "Given my upbringing and personal experience, I find voyeurism creepy. But that doesn't make it wrong as long as everyone involved is aware of what is going on."

Now, people who SPY on others is definitely creepy and an invasion of privacy. If that is what you were talking about, sorry.

[pipi_k]

5. Kickoff, huh? What team are you rooting for?

I think mine is self explanatory... ;)


but anyway...

what about if someone thinks even hetero sex is rather...disgusting.

I have to say that I've always found sex of any kind to be somewhat disgusting, even when I was younger. And since becoming menopausal, my attitude has only gotten worse.

I think if someone didn't know my inner thoughts about sex in general, and if they heard me say that I thought gay sex was disgusting, that person would (wrongly) assume that I was homophobic when I'm not. I live in Mass. I was overjoyed when gays could marry here. I wish they could marry everywhere.

I don't think bad things about anybody who finds the idea of gay sex disgusting. Maybe they just have sexual issues that don't have anything at all to do with homosexuality itself...

[Forkboy]

15. The Patriots, naturally.

:)

If you find it disgusting that's certainly your right, as long as you don't judge the people who aren't disgusted by sex. Unfortunately, many don't recognize that's it's their own sexual issues and not the ones of the people engaging in it, and they pass judgment on these people for just doing something that doesn't appeal to them. That's basically the point I'm trying to make...before kickoff. ;)

Thanks for your reply.

[renie408]

18. Oh, well, that changes everything.

Anybody who is a Patriots fan is obviously incapable of forming an intelligent idea.

[Forkboy]

24. LOL

:spank:

[pipi_k]

34. Oh no...a Panthers fan?

Maybe they'll win a Superbowl too someday...

:7

[pipi_k]

32. Oh hell no....I don't judge the people who aren't disgusted by sex

no matter what kind it is.

In fact, I often find I'm judged more often by people who DO like sex. They think there's something "wrong" with me.

then I feel like there really IS something wrong with me. Because it's not just the judgment put on me by people who don't understand my feelings, there's all the crap we see on TV...predatory women looking for sex everywhere, women having multiple orgasms, etc. The whole bit.

Is that how it really is in the world?

I don't know... :(


anyway, GO PATS!!!! :party:

[Forkboy]

39. People shouldn't make you feel wrong for not wanting to do anything.

That's your choice that should be respected. I imagine in this society one in your position must feel wrong, but you're not. It's just what's right for you.

[Odin2005]

66. That is exactly what I am taking about down-thread.

The people doing the wild and crazy sex call other people "prudish" and not "sexually liberated" and many women are pressured into doing such behavior even if they don't want to.

[Hannah Bell]

193. I relate to your post.

[Withywindle]

320. I respect your experience, but it is not the same for ALL women

predatory women looking for sex everywhere, women having multiple orgasms, etc. The whole bit.

Well, yes, if one was feeling sensationalistic, I suppose one could describe MY sexuality that way. I have a very high libido. I love sex. I find it fascinating. I love trying new things with new people, including kinky things, including regrettable experiments. When I'm not having it, chances are I'm thinking about it. A lot. All the time.

I am also a woman, and my experience is as real as yours. Your judgment of active and intense female sexuality is your own, but it bears little resemblance to my experience as I live it from inside my own head. Maybe you can't really empathize. I admit I have trouble imagining what life with a low level of lust would be like. I don't envy you, and I don't assume you envy me.

But yes, women like me really are out here in the world. Lots of us. It ain't rare.

[seabeyond]

6. i think it is the ignoring of abuse in situations.... talking group sex. even polygamy

i think the reason many women have issue with it is not the act itself, it is the abuse, subjegation, objectification that often haoppens in it. it is like the drinking. i personally give ownership to the female for amount she consumes, but i also understand being kids they will do it and leaves female open to abuse, rape and regrets.

it is a difficult subject.

this hofstra event. obviously something the girl was not totally comfortable with hence the immediate regret and accusing rape. (my personal view has always been more anger at the girl falsely accusing rape than a rapist. more damage.) (leaving self open for attack all over the place, generally opionions i hold close to vest). a video made, that while saved the boys from rape accusation also showed their mentality in the event and there was no respect there or consent, if filmed secretly.

so it leaves people uncomfortable knowing youth and poor decisions, and conditioning of today

now, a person enjoying group sex as adult, experienced and sure and confident in self and not being used is a whole different story

so i am not seeing it as a disgusting practice

i am seeing that overwhelmingly it is a young single female being abused in some fashion all the way to rape environment. or very young girls feeling that it will make them liked, popular to allow themselves to be used in such fashions with no consideration for them.

that is what is offensive.

a single man with a number of wives. there are some in this relationship that is healthy, grounded, and works for them. the majority is an abuse, submission and used in control.

all for the healthy ones. not so much for the abusive ones.

[Forkboy]

19. But that assumes abuse in the first place, which is not always the case.

I would suggest that it's actually rare.

The rest of your answer is nuanced and appreciated. :hug:

[seabeyond]

33. at a younger age i would disagree and suggest that it is almost always a taking of advantage of a

person. as much as we like to say our youth is of their own mind, they are not. we say on the one hand what do you expect from them, they are kids on the other hand, identify with their sexuality in knowledge, with little, no experience but able to live in teh adult world.

i dont agrre that the abuse or taking advantage is rare in youth. i would suggest it is common in youth. as adults, i could agree with you.

we are looking at our youth sexual experience from adult world, adult perspective. and that has just got to be different.

the 12, 13 yr old girl, who doesnt know shit, but for all different reasons think it would be cool to give a gourp of boys blow jobs. you think she has a know of what is going on. you think these boys are not using this girl. do you think these boys have any kind of respect for this girl. yet....

we want to allow it cause she consents with no lesson to her, no lesson to our sons. i on the other hand want my son to try and persuade he not to lower herself to such an extent, and that is exactly what she is doing, or i want son to walk and not use the girl

where is the line, that we say these kids are not capable of the adult sex world.

[The Magistrate]

55. At Thirteen, Ma'am, Consent Under Law Is Impossible

So that has no bearing on a discussion of adult consensual behavior.

[seabeyond]

59. except SIR, i am not talking about the law. i am talking about people. feelings, emotions

and why people think and feel as they do

as is the poster

so yes

sir

it has everything to do with this thread

[The Magistrate]

71. Mr. Forkboy, Ma'am, Speaks Explicitly Of Behavior By Consenting Adults

Roping a situation involving minors into the mix is simply an attempt to taint the discussion of sex involving multiple adult partners with a universally stigmatized behavior, precisely as if, in a discussion concerning the propriety of homosexual behavior, someone were to posit an instance of sexual contact between a grown man and a fifteen year old boy, and demand to know if people approved of that. The large point Mr. Forkboy is making is the standards of acceptance and tolerance generally displayed among left and progressive persons towards one form on legal non-standard consensual sexuality is often withheld from other forms of legal non-standard consensual sexuality.

[seabeyond]

76. i disagree with the premise of the thread. i think he is asking for an understanding why

even though consenting, .... people have issue with it. that has nothing to do with law and everything to do with experience and maturity.

[The Magistrate]

84. But In Doing So, Ma'am, You Invoke Conduct Involving Minors Rather Than Adults

Jump the ages of all involved in your example by six to thirty-odd years, and explain your revulsion, then, and explain further why anyone but you should pay the slightest heed to your revulsion in conducting their own affairs.

[seabeyond]

88. show me the "revulsion" you have given to me. you make things up for argument.

how dishonest is that.

you also refuse to consider where i am coming from, so i will not continue explaining the same thing over to you again and again and again.

go to any of the other posts i make and just reread. instead of asking me to repeat.

[The Magistrate]

98. The Fact That You Resort To the Example You Did, Ma'am, is Sufficient To Establish That

You did make a pro forma 'it doesn't bother me' noise early on, but then continued to place such encounters on a continuum wit rape, and indicate general disapproval.

[seabeyond]

108. you are so full of it. no evidence, no nothing, no quote.... just your thought and with

agenda at that.

[The Magistrate]

116. What Agenda Would That Be, Ma'am?

[seabeyond]

118. stating i find it repulsive when i gave absolutely no suggestion at all that i felt that

and regardless of you not able to provide any factual information for that, still insisting that is how i feel.

now really. done

sometimes a person just has to say good bye

[The Magistrate]

121. You Gave Such Indication, Ma'am, And will Not Trouble Me In The Slightest By Saying Good-Bye

[Hannah Bell]

196. she didn't.

[The Magistrate]

252. You May Begin To See the Problem With This Sort Of Thing, Ma'am

Different people may assign different significances to, and take different meanings from, a single act. We take different meanings from this person's comments here on this subject, assigning different significances to different elements of the communication attempted by this person. Unfortunately, when dealing with highly charged subjects, for which strong social taboos exist, and concerning which people are often at pains to seem to be behaving properly in the eyes of others, the final say-so concerning the actual meaning conveyed cannot necessarily be assigned to the speaker.

"What other people think of me is none of my business."

[JVS]

168. The radical pro-orgy agenda!

[seabeyond]

171. again. no. that isnt what we are talkin about. the agenda is promoting i find sex group repulsive

without any info and fact

but hey.... want to make up a story....

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

212. Well, you're always welcome to change your mind.

Just come out and say "I've got no problem with gang bangs or the people who enjoy them."

[subcomhd]

331. the switch

George: You're not gonna do it? What do you mean, you're not gonna do it?

Jerry: I can't. I'm not an orgy guy.

George: Are you crazy? This is like discovering Plutonium ... by accident.

Jerry: Don't you know what it means to become an orgy guy? It changes everything. I'd have to dress different. I'd have to act different. I'd have to grow a mustache and get all kinds of robes and lotions and I'd need a new bedspread and new curtains I'd have to get thick carpeting and weirdo lighting. I'd have to get new friends. I'd have to get orgy friends. ... No, I'm not ready for it.

George: If only something like that could happen to me.

Jerry: Oh, shut up. You couldn't do it either.

George: I know

[woo me with science]

338. I don't think you expressed "revulsion," exactly, but

I think the Magistrate is making an excellent point here that discussion of minors in this situation is irrelevant. Your bringing a thirteen year-old girl into the discussion seems like a rhetorical trick to invoke the idea (or feeling, which may be why the Magistrate interpreted "revulsion") of an abusive situation, as though it had anything to do with what goes on between consenting adults.

I agree strongly with the OP. Consenting adults enjoy experiences of many different flavors. The repeated suggestion on these threads that adult women in these situations are somehow being exploited or aren't mature enough to take responsibility for their own behavior seems infantilizing and insulting.

[seabeyond]

343. i didnt express revulsion exactly, kinda or sorta. i also did another post about an employee.

i have tried in a number of ways to convey what i am saying, in many different ways. for example, here is another one. math. my son has a fuzzy brain. he needs to see four five six ways of doing a problem before one will hit him and he says.... whoooo, i get it. that is what i did. i tried explaining this particular situation. i got obtuseness. i explain thru poligamy. i explained thru blow job party and i explained thru an employee. and the bottom line theme is using a person and how we have a responsiblity, or at least i hope to teach my sons the responsiblity in not using another person. i dont even give a fuck if another does it. that is about them. and those that chose to participate.

but what i have noticed is a really adament effort to continue to say, hu? i dont get that. that is not a way i interact with people or discuss something. it is the same kind of conversations i have with father and brothers with politics.

what i am saying is not a new concept. it is not an unknown concept.

as far as i am concerned, you all are being judgmental ect on the blow job party. it is a bunch of kids. all exploring their sexuality. none of it is OMG to me. it is what it is. a reality our kids are living in. now, do we teach them or ignore it and pretend it isnt happening. or that it is all healthy and perfectly ok with no lessons for the kids.

[woo me with science]

346. Ummm....okay.

That was pretty fuzzy.

[Forkboy]

126. The Magistrate has my premise correct.

[seabeyond]

130. ah, so you really didnt want an understanding of why people view this differently than you

good to know.

well

threads cant always go as you want. but they can still be fun, interesting and informative.

[Forkboy]

136. If you choose to believe that then the burden of your displeasure is something I'll have to bear.

threads cant always go as you want.

The thread is going almost exactly as I wanted, including your initial reply. Maybe it's just that the thread isn't going the way YOU want? :shrug:

I've been both kind and respectful to you, both in this thread and privately. If you can't return it then have a nice day.

[seabeyond]

139. ah, come on forkboy. cause we are obviously not seeing eye to eye

where am i not being respectful. i think every post has had the intent of respect. even the ones to magristrate. i understand where you are coming from. we see it differently. where am i not being respectful

and i find this thread fascinating, very interesting and appreciate it.

and i also am glad to here that regardless of my last interpretation of the post saying the thread didnt go as you intened, that it exactly is what you intended. that is good to hear too

no disrespect for you.

totally enjoy your posts and often get giggles from them

[Forkboy]

148. This isn't repsect...

so you really didnt want an understanding of why people view this differently than you..good to know.

I had a premise that the Magistrate understood, you didn't. That doesn't follow that my premise was the ONLY concept I was interested in or desired to hear, or that your additional input wasn't welcomed, yet that didn't stop you from jumping to said conclusion.

[seabeyond]

151. hey... he said you werent interested in that. you say you agree with him

what was i suppose to say or think?

no i did not mean it disrespectfully. i meant it in the manner it was given to me. that you werent interested in why people felt the way they do.

truly

if you felt it disrespectful, i did not mean it that way. and since you say that was an incorrect interpretation, i say, thanks for the clarification

[Forkboy]

157. No,. I didn't say I wasn't interested in it.

Saying the Magistrate has the premise correct doesn't say I'm not interested in what others have to add. The manner it was given to you is called English.

what was i suppose to say or think?

Something based on my actual words perhaps?

[seabeyond]

159. then i aoplogize.... agian forkboy.

since magristrate was stating wasnt about how we felt, that is what i thought you were agreeing too. i dont have a single problem being told i took a post wrong. i dont have a problem apologizing when someone corrects me, or believing what tehy are giving me is the truth.

as magristrates states i am repulsed, with no evidence and regardless of me telling him i am not and still insisting i am.

i dont do that

you told me you are interested in it all. huge thumbs up

you told me thread is going as you want. huge thumbs up

i appreciate the clarification

[TexasObserver]

163. Powerfully written and absolutely accurate.

These kind of oblique attacks as the one to which you replied are always seen when the topic of adult sexual practices is raised. We expect the GOP to raise it. We don't expect progressives to try to muddy the waters by alluding to sex involving minors, and attempting to use that approach to soil the discussion.

Either one believes adults have a right to their own personal sexual predelictions, or one doesn't. At the core of the Hofstra imbroglio are two significant prejudices: (1) those who find group sex disgusting, and (2) those who cannot fathom that a woman can give consent to having sex with 2, 3, 4 or more men and not find it disgusting. Those who want to find a reason to see the event as disgusting will find one.

[seabeyond]

67. further, if all the boys are under age, and she is giving the bj, then isnt she the one

breaking the law? why would you say the consent is hers, and not the boys. isnt she raping them

[The Magistrate]

75. All, Ma'am, Would Be Engaged In Non-Consensual Behavior By definition Of The Law

At least in a general way. There may be some jurisdictional variations that take into account differentials of age even where all concerned are below the age of consent in assessing culpability. Proceedings against the male are more common than otherwise, but cases like this can in fact turn on which party to the encounter agrees to testify for the prosecution.

[seabeyond]

77. but in your post, it was just about the girl...... sexist. nt

[The Magistrate]

91. Oh, No, Ma'am! You Have Tarred Me With An 'Ism'! That Must Mean You are Right....

In the post my comment was directed to, Ma'am, you specified only the age of the girl, and left that of the males unstated. 'Boys' simply indicates young males, but not necessarily males of minor age.

[seabeyond]

110. i TARREd you with an ism thru fact. you gave the girl the one abused, ignoring the underage

boys. at least i have something. you have nothing.

and an ism you get to own.

[The Magistrate]

119. You Specified Only The Age Of The Girl, Ma'am, Not That Of Other Participants

For the rest, you are welcome to the boiler-plate move, for all the good it will do you....

[subcomhd]

165. that is called a 13-year-old strawgirl. nt

[debbierlus]

132. Are you a libra?

[seabeyond]

137. i am laughin my ass off..... lol. that is funny. and yes. obviously.

it is all about balance for me. lol

[Odin2005]

69. I agree completely

"i think the reason many women have issue with it is not the act itself, it is the abuse, subjegation, objectification that often haoppens in it. it is like the drinking. i personally give ownership to the female for amount she consumes, but i also understand being kids they will do it and leaves female open to abuse, rape and regrets.

this hofstra event. obviously something the girl was not totally comfortable with hence the immediate regret and accusing rape. (my personal view has always been more anger at the girl falsely accusing rape than a rapist. more damage.) (leaving self open for attack all over the place, generally opionions i hold close to vest). a video made, that while saved the boys from rape accusation also showed their mentality in the event and there was no respect there or consent, if filmed secretly.

i am seeing that overwhelmingly it is a young single female being abused in some fashion all the way to rape environment. or very young girls feeling that it will make them liked, popular to allow themselves to be used in such fashions with no consideration for them.

that is what is offensive."

BINGO! Excellent post, SeaBeyond!

[Zix]

140. I don't want to come across snarky but what you seem to to be saying is...

abusive polyamorous relationships are abusive and non-abusive one's aren't? Well, you know, um, like all other relationships, yeah?

does this distinguish poyamory in any meaningful way from other relationships?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

7. people are idiots. they often think protectionism of adult women is necessary

because they refuse to acknowledge the control over womens bodies. "i only care that people dont have group sex, because there MAYBE abuse" is paternalistic and annoying.

[seabeyond]

10. yet you have a line with drinking. what is the difference. a concern for abuse

and why do you have that concern for abuse. because it happens often. as can be said the same with group sex, for our younger, sexually active kids.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

17. yes, because when one is drunk/high one cant give consent. i dont care what consenting adults do.

i dont know why that is so hard for you to get.

[jonnyblitz]

21. oh was THAT what she was referring to? I couldn't make sense

of her response to your post. boy did she ever MISREPRESENT. :crazy:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

36. its her style.

:)

[seabeyond]

41. you couldn't make sense because it is a continuing conversation.

from another thread. lion had no problem understanding.

[seabeyond]

40. but they could easily give consent. a yes or no. i see our youth making sexual choices in the same

light. being impaired. from lack of experience, knowledge and maturity. i think evidence weighs that out.

hence, the potential for abuse.

and btw, i dont necessarily agree or disagree with the drinking thing. a drunk male with a drunk female is in same position as drunk female. i would hope that my sons would recognize the possible abuse or if nothing else, taking advantage of a person because of impairment.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

42. i didnt say a drunk male was in a different position from a drunk female

you cant disallow thing based on their potential from abuse. otherwise we would have to disallow all sex.

[seabeyond]

47. what you are missing is i dont "disallow" anything. no disallowing. none, nada. you get that yet

i am not telling anyone what to do. i am not tellling the right and wrong of any of this. tough concept i know, you want to make it soemthing it is not.

it is recognizing what goes on in another human being, looking beyond self and deciding if it is right or wrong for you. it is understanding potention issue. looking beyond. it is out of the box free thinking.

you say exactly the same thing with drinking and refuse to recognize.

generally it is both male and female drinking. so where is the onus. you say that if a girl is visibly tipsy then is rape. you have your lines that you draw boldly. the right and wrong. the not allowing

i do not

[La Lioness Priyanka]

74. yeah, sure, nt

[The Magistrate]

13. You Have A Good Point, My Friend

The attitude you describe can be found often on display when sexual expression in a 'non-standard' manner is a feature of discussion.

People tend to generalize their own sexual feelings, and take these as the proper norm for sexual behavior. This is restrained somewhat when the matter of homosexuality arises here by the political charge associated with it now, which will constrain many from extending their hetrosexual in this manner in that specific area. But it can be seen to occur routinely when the topic is sexual expression which has no great political cachet.

[Forkboy]

23. Well, there's only one way to get that politcal weight...

GIMPS UNITE!

Personally, I must be getting old, because a gang bang sounds absolutely exhausting, and it may bleed over into hockey coverage as well.

[The Magistrate]

50. And Had You Put That In the Head-Line, Sir, You would Be Fleeing a Rhetorical Gang-Tackle By Now....

But age certainly does slow one down.

"I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm good as I ever was once."

[renie408]

14. I think the problem is that people come by their sexual wiring in a variety of ways.

My son knows a girl who is VERY promiscuous. She engages in risky sexual behavior with a wide variety of partners on a regular basis. She is intelligent, attractive and has a great sense of humor. She is over 18 and therefore a consenting adult who participates in these activities of her own free will.

Or does she? She has told my son's girlfriend that her uncle molested her as a child. She refuses to believe that might be a contributing factor in her current sexual behavior. I have friend who was molested by her bus driver when she was six. She grew up to go through an extremely promiscuous, unhealthy period of out of control sex and drugs.

These women could be considered 'consenting adults'. But without the abuse, would they have developed the same way sexually? I don't think so.

I used to know a woman who had a strong sex drive, was fairly well off and enjoyed a lot of sex in a lot of ways with a lot of people. She reminded me of the Samantha character on Sex in the City. She had some intimacy issues, I think, cause she just wanted a lot of sex without commitment. But she hadn't been sexually abused as a child that she knew of or at least admitted. I think maybe the intimacy thing came from being raised by a single mother because her father left while her mother was pregnant. I know her mother would say some pretty awful things about men. I remember her saying one time that ALL men cheat. I said that my husband hadn't and wouldn't. She just said, "How do you know? You are just taking his word for it." Anywho, while I think the daughter might have had some screwed up stuff about men, she didn't seem like she was 'looking for love in all the wrong places'. Just looking for sex, enjoying it and moving on.

So, I guess I just don't know about the 'consenting adults' part.

As for the other, it is probably normal for people to get a little creeped out by this or that sexual thing. And probably natural to form opinions about people who AREN'T creeped out the same thing. It is probably best not to impose that on other people, though. The possible exception being if you felt that the person involved might have some of the issues I mentioned at the beginning.

[Forkboy]

27. I don't argue with anything you say here, but it raises a question or two.

What is the answer to this? If someone is abused do we extend the age of consent through their death? At what point do we let them make their own decisions and respect them for that, whether we agree with the decision or not? We can't treat them as children all their lives, short of any mental disability that really makes them childlike in intellect. You said yourself that the woman your son knows is intelligent, so what do we do if you feel they'reintelligent enough to think for themselves in every other regard in their lives, but not sexually?

[seabeyond]

51. excellent. i had an employee who was abused a lifetime

she was submissive, weak, authority controlled, male dependent. it took me time to realize this about this woman. loved the woman. so much good and kind and acceptance from her. but she was all the other stuff too.

being the employer i came to realize she never said no. that i was in fact taking advantage of her when i would ask things of her because of her past experiences and who she became. i told her at that point, i cannot ask her do to things that would require a yes or no from her. because she would never give me a no. if she was busy, if she had other plans, if she just didnt want to do it, she would say yes.

realizing who she was, i concluded i would be taking advantage of her if i asked.

that became my responsbility to fellow man. then it became about me and the ind of person i am. not about her.

we are capable of recognizing, seeing if we are using a person. the choices we make are ours to own. the right and wrong of them.

[givemebackmycountry]

142. Seabeyond...

That's a great post, and it's so true because I had a female employee who was the same as you described.
She was the sweetest, tiniest, little ball of friendly you would ever want to meet, but immensely needy and dependent on what others thought of her.
It took me about six months to get my mind tuned into her, and then I handled her like a live hand grenade.
I made sure I was never in a room alone with her, made extra sure that I treated her like I did everyone else...
Even if she was the only female on a team full of guys.
I would cut her a break every now and then, but I do that with everyone who works for me.
You do good things, and you build up credit.
It's understood that every now and then, you get to cash some of those chips in.

She would look at me with those BIG brown eyes and plead with me to see if I could get her more money, and half of me would just melt.
The smarter half of me thank God, knew that there was no "upside" in this for me.
If I could not do it for the rest of my guys, I could not do it for her.

You never know what makes people tick.

She came from a small town in Missouri, and for some reason she had FIVE friends all commit suicide in a span of 8 months.
Including her boyfriend.
She took another job in the company, and I supported her because she was after all, a very good employee.
Three months after her new job assignment, she had a nervous breakdown and went on short term disability for 6 months.
Little Lacey with the short skirts and the BIG brown eyes.
You never know about people.
I hope she is well, and I hope she is happy somewhere.
She could make me laugh and make me smile and that's good enough for me.

[seabeyond]

145. my employee who became a friend

12 years later i heard she killed herself. awful end to the story.

[renie408]

81. You know what? Thanks! I just realized I might not be a liberal.

Cause I think letting a bunch of guys run a train on you is fucked up. And guess what? I'm ok with that and I don't care if you aren't. I don't think people always make the right or healthy choice, no matter how intelligent or adult they are. I think people can carry a lot of negative baggage around and it seems to crop up in the area of sex. I think it is ridiculous to pretend that EVERYTHING is OK as long as both people are 'consenting' adults because I think it is ridiculous to pretend that consent is never given without a person's history influencing it.

[musette_sf]

138. i think one can be a liberal

and also think that letting a bunch of guys run a train on you is fucked up. :thumbsup:

i think that sex is one of the primary areas in life in which "acting out" unhealthy impulses tends to be unexamined. probably because we Americans as a whole tend to be pretty messed up about sex.

[Zix]

147. Once you are able to distinguish between what constitutes a way of dealing with this baggage

that the consenting adult understands better than you from a way of dealing with the baggage that you understand better than the adult, you may have a point.

You seem to be saying: "People use each other as lightning conductors in relationships". This seems to be something of a truism and doesn't really move anything further on unless you have some plan for how to get people to stop doing it. Essentially you don't trust adults to make up their own minds about what do do with their bodies? Then their bodies must really belong ultimately to someone else, who, the State?

[Forkboy]

167. You didn't answer one single question I asked.

But I'll respond to what you said, even if you won't return the favor...

Cause I think letting a bunch of guys run a train on you is fucked up.

That's perfectly your choice. For YOU it is fucked up. For others, maybe not. As long as neither judges the other, end of story for me.

And guess what? I'm ok with that and I don't care if you aren't.

See above. I have no problems with you thinking it's fucked up unless you start passing judgment on the ones who don't...WOMEN included.

I don't think people always make the right or healthy choice, no matter how intelligent or adult they are

I don't either. That's why we as a society come up with arbitrary ages to decide when people are old enough to kill for their country, drink, or fuck some friends. At some point we say, "ok, I may not like the choices you make, but you're of an age where's it's no longer for me to tell you what to do." This is why I asked you the questions I did.

I think it is ridiculous to pretend that EVERYTHING is OK as long as both people are 'consenting' adults because I think it is ridiculous to pretend that consent is never given without a person's history influencing it.

Again, this is why I asked the questions I did. If people are unable to make a sound decision at 18 due to their personal history (and I agree that this is the case sometimes, and not just in matters relating to sex), at what age will they be? 20? 30? Should these people never have sex because of things that may have happened to them for fear that it's not because they just enjoy it but because it's really a psychological issue instead?

[Lyric]

35. Your post, good intentions or not, is an example of the thinking that's being criticized here.

Why do you assume that a woman who enjoys sex for its own sake, without fear or restraint, was probably molested or abused? Why do you assume that sex outside of the monogamy "norm" is an indicator of "intimacy issues?" Did it not occur to you that maybe, just MAYBE, there are plenty of people who are morally, emotionally, and mentally healthy, but STILL enjoy sex without commitment or restraint?

Sure, risky (unprotected) sex is stupid and unhealthy, but so are a lot of other things that people do every day. Taking the elevator instead of walking up a flight of stairs (assuming there's no disability involved) is unhealthy. Eating a fast-food cheeseburger for lunch every day is risky and unhealthy. Spending your free time using the computer or TV instead of being active is risky and unhealthy. Getting drunk is risky and unhealthy. Riding without a seatbelt EVERY time is risky and unhealthy.

And yet, we don't necessarily assume that THOSE people are somehow mentally damaged, formerly abused, or morally compromised. We disapprove, but we don't assume that they're damaged, screwed-up people. We just think they're making a dumb choice. It's only when sex is the topic that such paternalistic mumbo-jumbo as "She has intimacy issues because she wants sex without commitment" comes into play.

Sometimes I like to eat vegan meals, but that doesn't mean that I want to COMMIT to veganism. Sometimes I like to play Scrabble, but I have no interest in COMMITTING to being a tournament Scrabble player. I love to swim and play volleyball on occasion, but I don't feel the need to COMMIT to either sport. Does that mean that I have problems with commitment? Of course not! It just means that my interest is not intense enough to justify a real commitment to those things.

And so it is with sex and relationships. Sure, most of us are interested in sex, but that doesn't mean that we're ready to COMMIT to a relationship. We just like sex--the activity. It feels good, it's fun, it's great exercise. A lack of interest in committing to a relationship does not necessarily mean that someone is damaged, mentally compromised, or emotionally undeveloped.

[Forkboy]

43. I should have written you a PM telling you what i wanted this OP to be about...

...and then let you write it. :toast:

[subcomhd]

49. +1.75 nt

[renie408]

65. I didn't assume anything.

You are reading what you want to read out of what I wrote. What I said was that in SOME CASES there could be underlying factors that produce consent that alter the nature of the sexual event and I illustrated those cases. I didn't assume anything. I know that both women I used as examples were abused as children. I also know that the friend I mentioned had her view of men skewed by her mother. Unless you are here to tell me you are a lying dog who will fuck anything that moves and abandon it at your first opportunity and that all men are just like you. In that case, maybe her mother had a point.

Are you trying to say that molestation doesn't have long term effects on a person's sexuality? That is, of course, wrong. I never said that the ONLY way a person could become involved in certain sexual situations was through abuse.

As for the cheeseburger eaters and none seat belt wearers, that is a pretty lame comparison that doesn't match sexual promiscuity at all, so that's a little hard to work with. But now that I think of it, you could say that their eating habits were most likely established during childhood and have left them with a desire for something that they know is bad for them, but that they indulge in anyway. Gee, that doesn't sound so healthy, does it??

And do you REALLY think a woman who goes through her whole life never forming a lasting relationship with ANYONE and who has repeated one night stands is a perfectly healthy person without any baggage at all? I was giving examples of people that I actually know that could be construed to be consenting adults but who have underlying problems which produced the consent. Not ALL people. Some people I actually know.

If it is 'paternalistic' to acknowledge that some people have unhealthy reasons for getting involved in some kinds of sexual activity, what is it to pretend that the only reason anybody has sex is because they are perfectly healthy individuals indulging in a harmless personal activity between consenting adults?

[KittyWampus]

68. Humans are the only animals on the planet who are capable of harnessing their sex drive

You say "We just like sex--the activity. It feels good, it's fun, it's great exercise."

Some of us have come to the realization that the same results that one gets from empty sex can be gotten from yoga, biking, swimming, painting, sculpting or an infinite variety of other activities that don't involve treating other humans, including yourself, as objects.

[Lyric]

92. Quite a few invalid assumptions there.

1. "Empty sex" is a subjective term. What's empty for you is not necessarily empty for others. Not everyone has the same sexual goals or priorities.

2. Your premise about yoga, biking, swimming, etc.--that applies only to you and people who might choose to agree with you. You cannot assume that your truth is universal. I assure you, I get a LOT more from sex than from any of the things you mentioned. Frankly, nothing compares to sex in that respect. I am truly sorry that your body doesn't work the way that mine does, and I'm sorry that you can't seem to empathize with anyone else's experiences save for your own, but that doesn't mean that you are "right" and others are "wrong." It just means that we're different. You seek to portray your personal, subjective experience as The Truth, when the reality is that it's YOUR truth. Not mine.

3. I don't see sex as necessarily objectifying. Not even group sex. I see it as a form of exercise that happens to feel about as blissfully good as exercise can possibly feel. Nothing more. For me, sex and love have about as much to do with each other as playing Scrabble and love do. Sex (and Scrabble) is a thing I can do with someone I love, but the two are not inherently connected. I can have sex with someone I don't love, and it will still be fun. Same with Scrabble. Again, just because I don't share your values and hangups does not mean that my experience is less valid or true than your own.

:hi:

[Codeine]

271. You put it better than anyone today!

Bravo on an excellent post! :yourock: :applause:

[KittyWampus]

387. Immature and less evolved expressions of sexuality are what they are. If you enjoy them

yes, that's your business.

But they're still LESS EVOLVED.

[Odin2005]

85. At the same time those of us who are by personality NOT promiscuous...

...don't want to be called "prudes", "Repressed", not "Sexually Liberated", and "Stuck Up" by those that are. Young people now days are bombarded by peer-pressure memes telling them that there is something wrong with them if they are not promiscuous. We, as a society has become so afraid of 50's-type prudishness that we have went too far in the other direction and sending our kids the message that if you refuse to be promiscuous you are un-cool and stuck up.

[renie408]

89. Oops...watch out!! If you think that all sex at all times is not perfectly healthy

they will come and take away your Liberal Club decoder ring!!

[Lyric]

95. How silly.

Nobody's claiming any such thing, and you know it.

What IS being said is that if you think that sex at all times is not perfectly healthy, AND you are trying to portray YOUR view as the "right" and "proper" one, THEN we're coming for your Liberal Club decoder ring.

Tolerance for and acceptance of diversity (including diversity of thought) is a foundation of liberal thinking.

:)

[tammywammy]

101. When one refers to anothers sexual activities as "vulgar hedonism"

then yes, I'm gonna say you're a prude and stuck up.

It's fine if you don't want to participate in those activities, but to thumb your nose because YOU know better, then you deserve the backlash. Imagine if you had said the same thing about gay sex.

[hedgehog]

56. What caught my eye was the phrase my son KNOWS a girl who is very promiscuous.

Setting aside for the moment that sometimes reputations are very exaggerated, your son can have a reasonable expectation that this girl would willingly engage in sex with a wide variety of partners. The same would apply to someone in a club clearly aimed at people with those interests. Just having a reputation or being in such a location isn't the same as saying "yes" but it's reasonable to expect to hear "yes".

Is it reasonable to assume that any random person at an event open to a general public is looking for group sex with strangers? Apparently, none of the males involved at Hofstra had ever seen the female before that night.

[renie408]

87. Well, she blew him at a party right after doing another guy. I think that was probably what gave it

away. And on a hospital visit to a friend of theirs, he was asked to leave the room so that she could blow the guy in the hospital. Apparently, she gives out blowjobs like handshakes. But I am sure you are right. She probably only does that for really healthy, normal reasons. The abuse thing, that has no bearing on anything. Cause how can I be a good liberal if I don't think that any and all sexual behavior is normal and healthy and only engaged in for the mutual pleasure of the healthy people involved??

[hedgehog]

134. I agree with you that this woman/girl is reacting to prior abuse.

My point is that the men this woman knows can expect that she will consent to sexual activity, it's not safe to assume that just any woman is also willing to consent to sexual activity. Even this woman has the right to say no at any time.

I will concede for the sake of argument that there may be women who engage in sexual activity with multiple partners with no history of prior abuse. However some women (many? most?) prefer not to engage in sexual activity with multiple partners, especially with people they don't know, especially in a public toilet. There are places where people go specifically to engage in anonymous sexual activity. Although it frequently does occur at college gatherings, many (most?) women who attend such gatherings do not do so for that purpose. Therefore, it is not a good idea for males to assume that women they've just encountered for the first time at a party are eager for group sex. At the very least, consent should be obtained before the woman is lured away from the crowd to an isolated enclosed space.


I made the point about exaggerated reputations because quite often a girl's reputation is presented as proof of prior consent ("she did this once, so naturally she'll do that now). Sometimes the reputation is accurate, sometimes not, but in any case, past actions do not indicate current consent. It's possible to rape a prostitute.

[Prism]

20. It's about rationalization

Put as succinctly as possible, I think the idea that young people know exactly what they're doing frightens people more than the idea they're merely ignorant or not too bright around the edges. After all, wouldn't it be horrible to have an entire generation of meat marketeers unleashed upon the world? No, better to believe there is no self-control or choice or foreknowledge in all this. Forces beyond everyone's control. They don't mean to do it.

Except, yes they do. Twitter, pop culture, music, movies. All of them document the current wave of sexual liberation and increasing disattachment of sex from love. The rise in STDs bear much of this out.

But we have to keep telling ourselves, people would never do it willingly. Makes us feel better, and it lends itself to an easier villain better understood under old, comfortable modes of thinking.

[lunatica]

22. I can't tolerate intolerance

[seabeyond]

54. then you too are intolerant. nt

[lunatica]

72. Duh!

Do you understand irony?

[seabeyond]

79. i do. just didnt know if you recognized it.

that is one of my favorite lines, actually.

but many people use it without the irony.

[lunatica]

99. That's why I added the smilie

To try to make it clear that it was irony.

[seabeyond]

113. hey. i can respect that.

i often dont put a sarcasm cause i dont like to assume people are stupid and i am pretty obvious when using sarcasm. i also am understanding that in todays world, there will be some that think it is the truth

it is like bush in the onion. though absurd, it could always ring true. part of the funny

[Ozymanithrax]

25. Homophobia is a religous based disease...

It is not disgust at how or where different people choose to place Tab A in Slot B.

Christianity, Islam, and Judaism all have strong prohibitions against homosexuality based on religous teachings. Disgust at the act comes from incodtrination at a young age. It is religion that is the source of the disgust.

[cwydro]

26. The thing that disgusted me the most in that situation,

was that they did it in a BATHROOM.

Just ick.

That is all.

[Forkboy]

29. LOL

Linoleum and sex...never should the two intermingle. :)

[cwydro]

52. Oh, and the lovely smell of disinfectant

(or worse) in the air.

Ick, again I say ick.

[PVnRT]

379. I hope they wore shower shoes

Do you have any idea the kinds of nasties that grow on shower floors?

[Jennicut]

28. Who cares what people do behind closed doors as long as its consensual.

And it helps to not be drunk or high so you know exactly what you are getting into. I was virgin until I was 23 and have only been with one person, my husband. But I still could care less what other people do. Men and women both like sex and there is nothing wrong with sex. Some people make too big a deal out of it.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

37. well stated.nt

[MajorChode]

30. I think it has more to do with the reverse being true

I'm disgusted by the thought of some people having sex every time I go to Wal-Mart, but that doesn't scare me off of heterosexuality.

I think most homophobes are self-loathers who are more disgusted with their own latent homosexual desires.

[subcomhd]

31. you are projecting

the blindiest, spottiest blind spots that were ever projected by the patriarhy.

[Forkboy]

45. ...

:spray:

[SidDithers]

73. LOL!...

very well played :applause:

Sid

[Flabbergasted]

38. The idea of having sex with my sister disgusts me. It's a biological responce and one I don't want

to grow comfortable with.

[Forkboy]

46. 'k

[givemebackmycountry]

150. One of these days, you'll have to tell us what's up with that dog.

Because every time I see him, I laugh my ass off and then fall into a ten minute mental exercise trying to figure out what exactly is up with him.

[seabeyond]

204. speaking of dog..... just sayin. lol. or horse or sheep. you know

sometimes we get to say

ok

my bad

if someone wants the dog, horse or sheep... well who an i to say.

[Krakowiak]

305. Wow, is this Rick Santorum?

Did you really just make the comparison between the actions of consenting adults and beastiality (which involves a being unable to give consent)? This after you have already attempted to derail the conversation by bringing children (also unable to give consent by law) into the discussion?

You realize that these are EXACTLY the arguments made by the most extreme on the right against gay marriage? Of course you do.

[seabeyond]

308. taboo of the subthread, dog, eeew.

it all connected into teasing

you want to be offended and outraged, go for it.

[Krakowiak]

313. You connected beastiality with consensual group sex, that's obvious....

Honestly, you sound like someone on the far right.

You wanted to get a dig in, fine, but you were clearly connecting your statement to the OP.

The outrage is all yours. Feel free to continue bashing the free choices of consenting adults, but you will be called on it.

[seabeyond]

319. wow. i showed you the connection and THAT is what is obvious.

this si what is really irritating. yawl are the ones sittin in judgment. yawl are the ones telling us who we are and what we are. yawl are the ones putting something in what we say that we havent said. and then you all say.... liars, i dont care you explained, clarified, or corrected. you are wrong. though you didnt say... obviously you meant this

so f off

the connection is simple. a simple mind can see it

taboo sex, dog, eeeeew factor. not tough, easy to follow and has nothing about comparing group sex with animal sex. but what the fuck. i dont even care if someone fucks a dog. i dont. none of my business. doesnt mean i may not talk about the person behavior..... balance or not, grounded, healthy.

[Krakowiak]

325. eesh, calm down....

You posted this in a thread about consensual group sex and value judgments associated with.... If as you claim, your post had NOTHING to do with the original post, it probably didn't belong in this thread. At the very least, you are guilty of exhibiting extreme insensitivity to people who choose to engage in acts outside of your comfort zone. If this had been a thread about gay sex, and you had responded to someone's dog avatar with the comment you made, you would be lucky to escape this discussion without a granite pizza to honor your name. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and grant that you just made a very poor decision to make that comment, but that's all I will grant you.

Perhaps you need to step away from the computer for a few minutes and calm yourself down.

[iris27]

180. Actually, it's an environmental response; studies have shown

that two people who live in close proximity during the first few years of either individual's life experience reduced sexual desire between them. BUT, in the case of family members who live apart and meet as adults, they can actually experience stronger sexual attraction than they would to a random stranger. Googling "Westermarck effect" and "genetic sexual attraction" will find you more info.

[PassingFair]

350. You gotta work on your HANG-UPS, buddy!

:sarcasm:

Anything goes on this thread, don't you know?

I'm sure that incest will be loudly applauded,
it would be hypocritical NOT to.

[BuyingThyme]

44. What are you when you're disgusted by people who are disgusted with gay sex?

[Forkboy]

48. I don't know.

:)

[donco6]

169. A real liberal. n/t

[subcomhd]

301. homophobophobe nt

[ZombieHorde]

53. What a tentacle demon and an all female college do is none of my business....

until the DVD comes out.

[alcibiades_mystery]

57. The notion that sex with more than one partner is structurally "degradation" is itself a symptom

Just as you say. It's also deeply misogynist to assume that a woman can't, shouldn't, or mustn't desire that form of sexuality. These posters are really replaying the worst failures and condescension of 1970's style feminism. And yes, the fact that they would hardly apply the same thinking to a same-sex group encounter exposes it for the hypocrisy and misogyny that it really is.

Finally, this notion that people are unable to consent to sex while drinking (period) essentially makes nearly every man in the country a rapist; it's a ludicrous proposition, especially given the way many, if not most, sexual encounters occur today (and throughout history). Certainly, an exceedingly drunk woman - falling down, passed out, etc. - wouldn't be said to have consented, but that doesn't seem to be what these posters are saying. They're saying something like any drinking whatsoever invalidates consent, an eye-popping and entirely bizarre bit of puritanical nonsense. You and the wife have three glasses of wine each with dinner and then get a bit frisky? That's RAPE. Needless to say, common interpretation just laughs at such nonsense, which is why it always fails and reveals itself for the anti-sexuality puritanism it always was, however much it seeks to hide behind a feminist label.

[The Magistrate]

60. Well said, Sir!

[subcomhd]

64. we are witnessing some of the residual, ongoing hostilities of a bygone conflict

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_Sex_Wars

[Gwendolyn]

236. What s/he said works for me!

Reading the posts of most of the women on this thread (as well as others re the Hofstra incident) make me feel like I'm being slowly pressed to death with weights.

There's one in particular, who doesn't stop posting about how the Hofstra girl must be a naive ingenue (even though she grew up in NYC :eyes: ) while the boys of the same age are referred to as 'men" who should've taken the situation in hand. It's so sexist and patronizing, it's sickening. These women also can't see that by insisting the Hofstra "girl" must have been drunk, despite concrete evidence in the form of video that she wasn't, they are also infantilizing women. Quite frankly, it's suffocating. The village scolds - *shudder*

I presume the reason why older people have a problem with the way younger people conduct their sex lives is because they've completely forgotten or are viewing their own youthful behavior through vaseline lens and feel that since they've gained experience, it' should be enough to verbally impart that info. Doesn't work that way. In our case, it's the 70s people claiming today's youth is swirling down the drain, even though they were f*cking each other silly, while getting both high and drunk and not necessarily asking for a name or even requiring more than a ten minute acquaintance.

I can understand how progressives can have conservative or libertarian views on certain practical political issues, but those who are not socially liberal usually deserve a wide berth from those who don't care to be judged.

[woo me with science]

347. Superlative post. nt

[Juche]

58. I don't think that makes you homophobic

I know gay people who are disgusted by heterosexual sex. That doesn't mean they hate straight people.

[seabeyond]

62. point. nt

[BlooInBloo]

61. Women ripping on women for their sexual choices doesn't surprise me....

I hear that all the time in real life.

Those women who maintain that the men raped the woman no matter what the woman says - that surprised me.

I'm pretty sure that when women say "a woman's choice what she does with her body is to always be respected", they mean *men* should stfu - women are free to rip on other women about it.

And that's ok.

[Odin2005]

63. I think young people should not be pressured to do stupid, degrading things they will regret later.

Both sides of this Hofstra deal acted stupidly.

It seems like boys get the message that sex is about exploitation and conquest and girls get the message that you have to give in to the memes of exploitation and conquest or else you are "stuck up" and are not "sexually liberated" or some such crap.

I have no problem with sex. I have no problem with wild and crazy sex. What I have a problem with are with what memes regarding sex are floating around. Women should not have to be afraid of being called "stuck-up" or "repressed" and "un-cool" if they don't "put out" and bang a bunch of guys at a party. Guys should not be thinking of sex as exploitation and conquest.

It's not the sex, it's the associated memes and the implications of those memes.

[comrade snarky]

86. I have no problems at all with anything you state above

But what I haven't seen is anything beyond assumptions that the girl in this case was pressured as you say. We don't know what happened but one of the boys has said the group thing was her idea. There's a fair chance he's telling the truth.

And frankly, I'm having a hard time squaring what you say above with some of your past statements in other threads about this subject.

[Odin2005]

94. Some of the stuff I posted in those threads were stupid posts based on my emotions, not facts. sorry

I was being stupid.

[comrade snarky]

105. Thanks Odin, don't worry about it

It's easy to get carried away when suggestions of coercion come in. I've seen you post about your friend's history and the work you do so it's completely understandable to get caught up.

:toast:

By the way, SpookyCat says "Hi" and that she's "Too damn lazy to post" on a Sunday morning.

[Odin2005]

128. When are people NOT lazy on Sundays? LOL!

[comrade snarky]

146. Well, she is the smart one.

[JerseygirlCT]

284. Completely agree

Situations in which respect is lacking are almost inevitably going to be abusive in one way or another. I've raised my (older) son to think about not only the physical consequences, but also the potential emotional ones.

[EFerrari]

70. "My parents don't do THAT."

lol

[Hello_Kitty]

78. It's not that simple. Google "gang bang" and what you find is pretty disturbing.

The actresses who participate in gang bang scenes are referred to as "dirty sluts" and "cum dumpsters" and numerous other disgusting names and there's a good deal of emphasis on how much pain the woman is (deservedly) getting from all the men "stuffing her holes". It bothers me that one of the most popular genres of porn is so steeped in ugly misogyny, because popular porn tropes have a way of becoming demands put on women by their partners. I have no interest in telling others what to do with their bodies (as if I could anyway) but if being concerned with all this makes me "judgmental" then I stand guilty as charged.

I mean, really, if this is just consenting adults having a good time and being respectful, then why is so much hatred of women being expressed in the porn?

[debbierlus]

82. And, it is all VERY young girls - the barely legal is the most popular

It is interesting also that the focus is on very young women who don't have the emotional experience and maturity to make good sexual decisions for themselves.

It is predatory.

Adults. Just because the law defines 18 as legal, it does not mean that young women (or men) have developed the necessary judgement to know what is healthy for them.

[PVnRT]

380. Then when will they know? 30? 50?

I was always under the impression that one gains the most wisdom and experience from one's mistakes and failures. Your attitude (and others') seems to be that young people (especially young women) are naive and helpless and must be protected from all of the horny men out to fuck them indiscriminately.

[subcomhd]

83. link? nt

[Hello_Kitty]

176. Cute

:eyes:

[comrade snarky]

93. Porn isn't reality

The vast majority of it is made for the lowest common denominator. People who for the most part have issues with sex. So yeah, a lot of it is ugly and disrespectful.

Of course I'm sure you wouldn't consider standard straight porn as representative of normal situations so why would you assume that for anyone involved in a group affair?

[subcomhd]

106. The funny thing is that apparently they are looking at porn right now. ROFLFAO

they googled "gang bang" and are, eh hem, researching all the links. Not that they want to.

[comrade snarky]

111. That explains the quiet!

Or the game has begun...

[seabeyond]

114. so, you are saying guys today dont talk about female in this manner. that they do not

use those terminologies and all us women that hear it are delusional and that many of threads we see from some men on du are figment of our imagination and across the internet and that my son coming home with issue the way males talk about females are flat out lies?

oooosh

that is good to know

thanks.

[subcomhd]

117. I'm not the one looking at gang bang porn.

Not that there is anything wrong with that- I mean they are just researching it to protect their delicate sisters from the patriarhy.

[seabeyond]

120. hm.... it was stated the attitude adn comments were fantasy, not real. now you back off and say so

what

even if true not hurtful

hm

[subcomhd]

122. I never used the word fantasy. you are confusing me with another poster.

I don't look at that crap - like the sisterhood of the wilting flowers, seems to enjoy (for research purposes of course)

[Hello_Kitty]

181. So if I take you at face value and assume that you've never looked at that type of porn

Then what you are admitting is that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Why not just say so in the first place and spare us your ignorant babble?

It's hilarious how you think you're being clever with this "OMG YOU LOOKED AT PORN!!1!" thing as if I'm supposed to be embarrassed or something.

[subcomhd]

191. no because for you to take it at face value I would have had to have said it

"don't look at" and "have never seen" are two different things. And I think you looking at it in order to research the misogynistic patriarhy reminds me a lot of the people who enjoyed titillation disguised as public service announcement movies and books about wild teens in the 1930s, 40s and 50s.

[Hello_Kitty]

195. And I think you want to talk about everything you can think of besides my point

"Ooooh you were titillated!! You just wanted to look at the porn!!" Whatever. Yeah, that's why I did it. You got me. :eyes: Now, are you going to address the hateful misogyny I pointed out or continue to play comedy hour?

[subcomhd]

199. it's also evocative of Ed Meese looking at all that porn

In order to protect us from it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meese_Report

so yeah, any time morally/sexually judgemental people look at porn, it's funny.

[Hello_Kitty]

227. Yawn.

You got nothing.

[subcomhd]

230. tired?

I guess alternating between scolding people for looking at porn and surfing gang bang sites all day is exhausting.

[d_b]

219. you're missing out

if you want a few good sites, just let me know.

[subcomhd]

256. i keep up with them through hello_Kitty's posts, but thanks. She might want them though. nt

[comrade snarky]

125. Some do, sure

The suggestion from Kitty's post is that derisive misogynistic behavior is the norm when it's not. Kind of like when straight porn is assumed to be representative of a normal relationship.

Then again maybe it is how you live, so you'd assume it is an honest mirror. I don't know, don't care.


Or maybe you are just engaging in condescending assholerey on a Sunday morning. :hi:

[seabeyond]

129. why are you bringing my sexuality into it? why do you have the need to decide my sexual preferences

without any knowledge or info on who i am.

of course some males speak this way. no, not all do. regardless of often being told all men do it and if they say they dont they are lyin to you.... i have never bought into that bullshit.

but to pretend that isnt out there is wrong too

now wtf does that have to do with my sexuality and YOU judging me especially lacking any kind of knowledge or info.

oh wait.... i know.... it is to degrade or humiliate me into what.... submission. is that what you are trying to do. insult me to get me to shut up

isnt that the very thing you are outraged about

[comrade snarky]

133. Now you're off into your own fantasy

Yeugh...
I choose not to participate.

Consent not given.


PS: Judging someone for their sexual preferences and choices is exactly what you've been doing. :hi:

[seabeyond]

144. i dont agree.

but we can say just about anything to end conversations because of lack of desire to actually hear what another is saying, for any number of reasons.

[comrade snarky]

153. Wow

[seabeyond]

156. wow, what? i can equally say wow to your wow. nt

[comrade snarky]

162. Wo.... wait, what? I'm lost.

[seabeyond]

166. rofl.... got a witch cackle out of me on this one. so funny

ya, i hear ya.

[Odin2005]

154. In my experience that behavior is quite common.

And many people don't understand how hurtful it is, or even realize they are doing it. My friend, her BF, and I were at a karaoke bar a while ago and her BF and I almost got into a fight with some louts making rape jokes. When we told them to quit it because they were triggering my friend's PTSD they told us to "lighten up" and asked "why can't you people take a joke?".

[comrade snarky]

172. That's horrible

I can't fix everything but I can damn sure make certain no one behaves like that within earshot of me.

Not for long anyway.

[Odin2005]

174. Good!

:)

[Odin2005]

149. Exactly, I hear my fellow guys using that misogynistic language all the time.

It's disgusting. It's even more disgusting that so many are in denial that it's so common, probably because they do it themselves without thinking about it.

[subcomhd]

178. i'll be the first to admit that men (most I know) speak differently than

when they are in mixed (men and women)company. But so do most women I know. Vive la difference. I don't know what "jokes" the guys at the other table were telling but I'll take your word they were being louts. That doesn't mean that whatever they were saying was indicative of all men - maybe you need to hang around a different class of men, again I don't know. But there is a lot of misandry in your posts.

[Odin2005]

182. These were 20-something guys saying that they were going to...

"get some drunk bitches passed out and rape them". Yes, they actually said they were going to RAPE them.

I remember seeing a study posted on DU that said 35% of college-age men were OK with "forcing a women to have sex with them if there were no legal repercussions". I found that statistic truly shocking.

[subcomhd]

187. I might have called the cops if i had heard that

or told the manager of the establishment at least so he could watch out for his female clientele.

[seabeyond]

188. oh, that would have been a good one. though much of what is said is just pure bullshit

and wouldnt want someone in trouble for pure bullshit. maybe looking down on them, but not trouble. but telling bartender is good.

i dont think of those things, so was good you giving that out.

i tend to be confrontational, would have whipped around and told them what piece of shits they were that couldnt get any, lol lol, cause of their....

ok i wont go there.

[subcomhd]

197. if I was in any bar or restaurant and someone was saying

"we are going to rape some drunk bitches" I very well might call the cops, depending on what a bouncer or bartender said after I told them I would think someone like that MIGHT be carrying rohipnal (sp/) and be a REAL fucking rapist. It could be easily done from a cell phone and it might just be worth a cop patting them down while investigating them for public intox. What you have described is so NOT typical of male behavior that MOST males I know would have intervened - yes, perhaps with a direst confrontation.

[seabeyond]

201. actually it wasnt me describing it. i just jumped on your post

cause thought it interesting.

i tend to think the best of males too, and generally see that they would be more help than hindrance and more apt to not accept that behavior. it is the small crowd most vocal.

many men though tend to keep mouth shut for different reasons. (i have been asking about this out of curiosity)

and am always thrilled with the men that say, huh uh. not ok.

[subcomhd]

206. oops. that's cool - I should at least look at avatars

but seriously, the most misogynistic men I know are probably the most likely to have actually engaged in a verbal/physical confrontation with people like that (like a good patriarch I suppose) "We are going to rape some drunk bitches" might get your ass kicked in the VERY un progressive land i live in.

[seabeyond]

207. living in texas and a family of oh... that kinda males, i agree. nt

[subcomhd]

210. lol nt

[Odin2005]

203. Well what shocked me is that a lot of people could hear these louts and only we confronted them.

I'm of the view that silence is complicity.

[subcomhd]

208. If nobody did anything it is complicity, maybe not legal but moral

like I said, I probably would have discreetly told the manager. And maybe someone did that. Most proprietors of places that serve alcohol are appreciate a heads up on stuff like that - if for no other reason than their financial liability.

[Odin2005]

192. I wasn't really thinking about that, unfortunately

I was more concerned with getting my friend out of there before her panic attack and flashbacks got worse.

[subcomhd]

202. I'm not judging your actions

I'm just saying that kind of behavior is very UNtypical of your average man. Most men I know, even the pretty sexist ones, would have come unglued at such behavior.

[Hello_Kitty]

189. I don't find it shocking.

Sad to say. The only thing that does shock me from time to time is how very often progressives such as the ones here go out of their way to make excuses and accommodations for this mentality. Non-critical acceptance of everything under the sun where sex is concerned has become a liberal litmus test and I'm sick of it. Criticism isn't censorship.

[seabeyond]

190. or pretend otherwise..... nt

[Odin2005]

194. And when you question the behavior you are called "Misandrist".

[Hello_Kitty]

198. Of course.

Just like the teabaggers will accuse YOU of playing the race card when you point out that many of them harbor racist views.

[subcomhd]

217. no, when you paint men in general with big broad negative brushes

it is misandry. pretty much textbook. doesn't mean you hate men, just that you make hateful anti-man statements.

[Hello_Kitty]

235. But when you paint women as dirty whores who love to be degraded, the way a lot of porn does.

Well, that's just hunky dory!

[Odin2005]

243. DING!

[subcomhd]

247. complete non-sequitor nt

[Hello_Kitty]

249. Not to those of us who think women are human beings. YMMV. eom

[subcomhd]

254. complete sophistry nt

[Hello_Kitty]

257. Thinking women are human beings is sophistry? Thanks for your candor. eom

[subcomhd]

261. Declaring it and implying that someone has denied it is sophistry.

absolutely

[Hello_Kitty]

263. What are you doing here?

You go back and forth between "hur hur Hello Kitty looked at porn!" cracks and bemoaning "misandry". Do you have something to say about the misogyny that is rampant in porn or did you just want attention?

[subcomhd]

268. I don't give a shit about porn, like you do. As long as nobody

is being forced and everyone is a legally competent adult, I don't give a fat rat's ass if it's misogynistic, anti-Semitic or preaching the Gospel of St. Luke and encouraging people to vote for Ralph Nader. You are the one fascinated with it.

[Hello_Kitty]

370. Then why did you respond to my comment in the first place?

Yep. You wanted attention. You got it. Now go away, troll.

[subcomhd]

378. Unlike porn, I do look at DU and read the comments

including dumb, stereotyping, hateful ones like yours.

[subcomhd]

221. making excuses - I said I'd have turned them in.

[NickB79]

361. Like subcomhd said, maybe you need to find a different class of men to hang out with

In my 5 years in college (1998-2003), I can honestly say that I NEVER heard any of my male friends speak like that. Jokes about sex were very common, but jokes about rape, even among 19-yr old men in dorms, were verboten.

[Hello_Kitty]

371. Bully for you. It's not like we all get a choice over who we're surrounded by.

I didn't have a choice when I was growing up and I suppose I could have not joined the military but once I was in it was rather hard to get out. I guess I could have quit every job I had where the guys acted like assholes too. Or reported them for sexual harassment on a daily basis. Must be nice to have so much choice over whom you associate with.

[Hello_Kitty]

183. "Misandry"

Oh I get it now.

[subcomhd]

186. good. nt

[Hello_Kitty]

175. Right. That's why it's hugely popular with all kinds of men.

I guess if you emphasize the "common" in "lowest common denominator" you have a point.

[comrade snarky]

215. OK, so porn is the same as real life

I'm going to order a pizza.

[Hello_Kitty]

232. FOX News isn't real news but a disturbing number of people think it is.

I think porn is the FOX News of sex.

[comrade snarky]

237. So, do you assume that all people believe fox news

Because it's on the TV box?

Your posts sure as heck use that kind of broad brush. Anyway, aren't you the person who just said this?

"The only thing that does shock me from time to time is how very often progressives such as the ones here go out of their way to make excuses and accommodations for this mentality. Non-critical acceptance of everything under the sun where sex is concerned has become a liberal litmus test and I'm sick of it. Criticism isn't censorship."

Seems like you're not interested in a discussion with people who may disagree with you so much as you're into finger wagging and scolding.

[Hello_Kitty]

240. No I don't and I didn't realize I needed to spell that out to you

And I hope you realize you are just as guilty of broad brushes when you portray anyone who criticizes anything about porn as being an anti-sex scold. I happen to be a bit disturbed that there's a highly popular form of entertainment among young men where women are routinely called "cum dumpsters". Which means I hate men, according to you. :eyes:

[comrade snarky]

242. Do you read the words people use

Or just make up the replies you want to see whole cloth?

Didn't I say I find the majority of porn creepy? Oh! Wait! I did.

"The vast majority of it is made for the lowest common denominator. People who for the most part have issues with sex. So yeah, a lot of it is ugly and disrespectful."

In reply to a post of yours in fact! Wow! Look at that...


My experience does not in any way conform to the porn fueled scenarios running through your mind but feel free to continue arguing with the stereotype you make up.


:Edited to add the skipped word "to"

[Hello_Kitty]

248. Nice personal attack there, dude.

But at this point, I have no idea what you're trying to accomplish, other than baiting me.

[comrade snarky]

255. It's not a personal attack

It's pointing out you are not responding to what's being said. You made up a point of view and ascribed it to me when I have expressed the exact opposite.

To you in fact. That's not baiting, that's clearing the record.

[Odin2005]

102. Hence my comment about memes of exploitation and sexual conquest

It also fits in about what I have said about women being peer-pressured into doing this sick crap.

[musette_sf]

143. + 1

well said

[JerseygirlCT]

286. Very good question, I think., nt

[debbierlus]

80. First of all, a drunk 18 year old girl is not in any position to be deciding to sleep with 5 men

I assume you are talking about the Hofstra University student with this thread....

I can tell you - having been an 18 year old girl - having been a mother to a teenage girl - having worked extensively with teen girls and young women in a inpatient long term psychiatric treatment facility - very few, if any, have the emotional & intellectual maturity to decide to participate in a multiple partner sexual experience when sober - let alone, if they are drunk.

Understanding your own sexuality and how to safely meet your own needs takes personal exploration and insight, and going to a party and ending up having sex with multiple guys in a bathroom while intoxicated can feel pretty much like rape, even if you went along with it. I am not justifying lying about the encounter, however it seems to me that people are dismissing this whole thing was video taped without the girl's knowledge and that is pretty violating right there. So, we know that there was something about the sexual act that she did not consent to right away.

And, once a girl is in the middle of a situation surrounded by five strange guys, it is not a big leap to assume she may not know how to safely remove herself from a situation that got completely out of her control.

My personal opinion is that it is easy to find yourself in deep waters above your head when it comes to sex. The younger & the less experienced you are - the more likely that it is to occur. I have no doubt that the girl in the above scenario probably felt like she was raped. And, maybe she was, neither you nor I nor anyone on this board was there and the tape didn't show the whole encounter.

And, if we are honest, I think everyone would find some aspect of some type of sexual behavior gross or weird. I know that I don't particularly get some of the extreme fetish type stuff. As long as it is two consenting adults who are not physically harming another person, it is up to them and it is there right. The only thing I will say is this - let's not pretend their aren't emotional consequences for some types of sexual behavior, if the person hasn't come to an understanding of what is okay for them and what suits their needs. The experimentation process can leave some pretty deep scars, so let's stop pretending that sex, this most deep human experience can be shared as casually as a handshake by everyone with no emotional repurcussions. And, let's acknowledge due to the sheer biological and genetic makeup of men and women that casual sexual encounters don't have the same effect in each gender. I have seen to many hurt girls who have used sex as a lure for committment and attention to pretend otherwise. If they were honest about their sexual motives, they never would have found themselves in these places of hurt to begin with....

[SidDithers]

90. I'm assuming you're not talking about Hofstra...

because there's no indication that the young woman was drunk.

Sid

[debbierlus]

97. From what I have read, she had just come from a drinking party

If she wasn't drunk, she made some very poor choices and got herself into a situation above her head.

In either case, my comments are general observations and most of what I wrote would still stand.

[subcomhd]

100. It is a meme that has run through all of these threads

but you are right. Nobody(with first hand knowledge of the case) has said she was drunk.

[subcomhd]

104. what about a barely over the limit 39-year-old man?

[Forkboy]

131. Tell us at what age she's old enough to make her own decisions.

And is the area of sexuality the only area where you feel an 18 year old woman is too immature to think for herself?

[debbierlus]

164. You are being manipulative and disingenious

I think that it is the nature of YOUTH to be suspectible to making poor decisions based on inexperience and immaturity. That is just reality.

So, don't pretend it is an affront to women and their intelligence to point out that a eighteen year old girl gangbanging five men in a bathroom stall is probably not acting in her emotional or physical best interest.

I am a mother of a teenage girl. My house is FULL of my daughter's teenage girl friends. My whole life is filled with the reality of parenting a teenage girl and being a shoulder to those friends.

And, what I see from this intimate perspective is a vulnerable group of young women who invariably want to be loved or at the least wanted by boys/men. And, they often make decisions that are not true to themselves to garner attention, love, or committment from guys. The sexual decisions that girls make often has WAY more to do with meeting their emotional rather then physical needs. And, they are enormously vulnerable to hurt from these decisions.

I have worked for years with young women as a psychiatric RN and I have listened to HUNDREDS if not thousands of their stories. I was a teenage mom, and I worked for years with teenage mothers in teen parenting programs. I was a battered women's volunteer abuse counselor for five years. I know from which I speak. I don't condescend a women's intelligence by my comments, I acknowledge the struggles they face in finding a healthy sexuality in a sexually broken culture.

I know of the emotional consequences & heart break of young women who have made poor sexual choices at a young age, and my interest is to advocate for the young women in my life to love themselves and know themselves, so they can make the best choices for themselves.

Sexual liberation is not license to engage in any act of sex without consequence. True sexual liberation is knowing what ones sexual needs are and how to meet them safely, in an emotionally honest way.

[Forkboy]

185. This is why we have age of consent laws.

Because there comes a time when people are able to do things that may not be good for them, whether we like it or not.

So, don't pretend it is an affront to women and their intelligence to point out that a eighteen year old girl gangbanging five men in a bathroom stall is probably not acting in her emotional or physical best interest.

It is an affront if the women is intelligent enough to make her own decisions and wants to do just that. I'm not arguing with you that it may be based on numerous other factors that aren't good, from abuse to peer pressure, but at the end of the day it's their choice, and while we may not like the choice, once they're past the age of consent it's essentially no longer our business what they do in bed, with who, or with how many.

If the issues you raise make them too vulnerable at 18 to make decisions regarding their own sexuality, at what age will it no longer be wrong for them to decide they want to do something like this? I know women who have gone through Hell growing up and into adult life, and it's still an issue for them, and most likely affects many of their decisions, sexual or otherwise. Do we tell them it's wrong to engage in the sexual behavior of their choice at age 45 or 50 because those issues are still a factor? I don't feel that 18 year old people, male or female, make very good decisions on a lot of things, but it's not up to us to tell them what they should or shouldn't do anymore, just because we feel isn't in their best interests. I don't feel it's in their best interest to join the military and perhaps kill for their country. It's simply not up to anyone else to decide what another adult's best interests are for them, and it'll be met with resentment almost every time...even if you're right.

Also, there's an assumption here that women who would do this must have some kind of psychological baggage of some sort. In many cases that's surely true. In many cases it just as surely isn't. Making that assumption based on the type of sexual act itself and nothing else IS an affront to their intelligence if no such baggage exists. The woman who has single partner sex is just as guided by her past as anyone else, good or bad (not all abused females go on to become promiscuous, often just the opposite). But only one type of sex out of the two is met with scorn and assumptions that it's their bad past driving it.

I know of the emotional consequences & heart break of young women who have made poor sexual choices at a young age, and my interest is to advocate for the young women in my life to love themselves and know themselves, so they can make the best choices for themselves.

I heartily commend you for this, seriously, and hope they listen. Self respect is tough at any age sometimes, but it's especially hard at that age. If that can be instilled then half the battle is already won.

Sexual liberation is not license to engage in any act of sex without consequence. True sexual liberation is knowing what ones sexual needs are and how to meet them safely, in an emotionally honest way.

Agreed 100%.

[Odin2005]

209. It's not about their right to make their own decisions, it's about...

concern about misogynistic memes that influence people's decisions, especially when peer pressure is involved. We as a society have a duty to keep our kids from take on such vile memes that screw up the minds of both men and women.

[Hannah Bell]

224. Oh, get with the program, Odin!

"Orgy-porgy, Ford and fun,
Kiss the girls and make them One.
Boys at 0ne with girls at peace;
Orgy-porgy gives release."


Don't you want to be in the kool kids klub?
Don't want to be a 'prude,' do you?

[Odin2005]

225. You got exactly what I was talking about re peer pressure.

[Forkboy]

229. ....

It's not about their right to make their own decisions, it's about concern about misogynistic memes that influence people's decisions, especially when peer pressure is involved.

When a person of legal age it IS about their right to make their own decisions. That doesn't negate your right to point out the memes you worry about, but those memes also don't give us the right to tell someone else that we know what's best for them when they are old enough to make those decisions themselves. This woman is old enough to kill for the country, she's old enough to decide what kinds of sex she wants to try without having to worry about others passing judgment on her, as all too many are doing. You yourself called it sick and evil. Others say she has issues from her past. Don't you see how degrading THAT is to this woman if she really doesn't have any issues and just did something silly on a whim? In essence, many of those who defended her are saying she's too immature or too dumb or too psychologically damaged to make decisions about her own body. Isn't that the complete opposite of women's rights?

We as a society have a duty to keep our kids from take on such vile memes that screw up the minds of both men and women.

To an extent, yes, but this language here is the 100% the same as what the Right Wing would say about the supposed gay agenda. You can't save everyone, and most don't want to be anyways. Just as you or I have had to make our own mistakes before learning, so to does everyone else. The age of consent is there for just this purpose. At some point people have to learn for themselves, and it's no longer up to the adults to tell them what's best for them. It's up to them to figure it out themselves, possibly in ways that bother or offend others who feel they know better.

[Hello_Kitty]

245. You say we have the right to point out memes

And then proceed to tell us how doing so is degrading, judgmental, and akin to Right Wing homophobia. IOW, you don't think people should examine pervasive sexual memes at all because there's a chance that someone, somewhere isn't being influenced by them and we might offend that person's delicate self-image.

So who's being patronizing?

[Forkboy]

277. Doing so to someone who isn't a victim of these memes is wrong, and yes, very judgmental.

You do have the right to say it if you think it applies, but no one here knows a damn thing about the girl in this case...that didn't stop them from making snapping judgments about her, did it? So doing so with no knowledge of this person is indeed degrading. Don't you find it degrading when someone tells you you have mental issues for doing something that you might just enjoy?

[Odin2005]

348. We are ALL victims of these memes to some degree.

They are part of the cultural atmosphere we breath. I why I am constantly repeating that I am not necessarily worried about the behavior of individuals, but the memes expressed by those behaviors collectively.

And I don't see how giving advice is insulting, if you don't agree with my advice just ignore it, don't take it as a personal affront. I think we as a society need to get over this mindset that sees criticism and advice as an insult. People are not perfect, we are going to make stupid snap judgments, especially when the topic is emotionally charged. I have admitted to stupidly making them myself.

[Odin2005]

246. That's why we need to teach kids to be sexually responsible adults.

[Forkboy]

283. Sex ed is this country is horrible, both through schools and through parents.

This would actually make a good thread as an aside to the issue here in my OP. I know the most well-adjusted people I know sexually had parents who were very open about it. Not encouraging them to do it, but not pretending that they wouldn't try it, and preparing them for when they did. I think just telling kids not to do something is the fastest way to get them to do it.

[debbierlus]

264. My comment never questioned their intelligence, so that is a strawman argument

Sorry, but I do not know of one single woman who has been through the sort of sexual act as the Hofstra University student and felt it was a positive experience. Not one. I know of women who have been to therapy for years to recover from that sort of incident. I know one woman who it helped drive her suicide.

I am not saying it is impossible for a woman to have a good sexual group experience, I am saying that it isn't possible under the circumstances described.

And, I think what is not being mentioned here is the responsibility of the men who engage in this type of sexual behavior without knowing the other person. How can you possibly make a responsible & ethical decision about engaging in that type of sex without even knowing the person you are going to do it with? Given that there is such a strong correlation between this type of sexual activity and past sexual abuse and trauma, it might occur to a responsible male that engaging in that type of sex with a woman might have the capacity to emotionally harm her further. Or, is it only that she said 'yes' and his moral obligation ends there.

This is about caring and respecting each other as human beings and THINKING about the impact of behavior before acting. That is part of sexual maturity and adulthood. Age of consent is a legal term. I am talking about the responsibility we have to each other as human beings. Entering into sex or any act in love (not necessarily in love or even precluding a one night stand, just approaching each other in a loving way and treating each other well would negate a lot of this type of pain.

Believe me, I am no prude and having been the target of the slut label as a teen mom, the very last thing I would do is throw stones at any woman for their sexual behavior. I am all for sexual empowerment of women. Sexual promiscousness does not equate to empowerment, and the most sexually empowered people I know limit their sex to a single partner or a trusted group and do not just screw anyone, knowing full well the consequences of indiscriminate sex with people who may not respect or care for you as anything other then a object.

[Gwendolyn]

285. I would hazard a guess that your employment doesn't really place you in a position...

where you'll come into contact with a lot of people who have healthy relationships to begin with. It's akin to a SPCA volunteer insisting that ALL animals are abused and abandoned.

There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people who enjoy alternative sexual lifestyles that you'll never hear about. Why? Because they're having a great time, are comfortable living in their skin and so they don't make the evening news. It's rather presumptuous of you to make the sweeping announcement that you *know* everything there is to know about female sexuality based on your occupation and having once been labeled a teen slut.

[debbierlus]

352. I never made that claim. And, if you read my posts fully, you would see that I was not claiming

That alternative sexual lifestyles were unhealthy by nature. I was referring to the situation with the university student and those like it.

I never said I know 'everything'. I stated that I have a lot of experience dealing with women who have faced harsh consequences for making poor sexual choices. I never precluded that any and all women who choose alternative sexual lifestyles were all making bad choices. And, I think I have expressed this view clearly and compassionately in my other posts. If you want to read them, go ahead. If not, stop making untrue broad claims about my posts.

[Gwendolyn]

382. What I saw from your posts...

was that you painting a vision of the Hofstra woman as a drunk, naive girl, while her fellow cohorts of the same age were labeled men. She was not drunk and there's nothing to indicate that she was more or less naive than anyone else in that bathroom. It was posts such as yours, and the offense taken by me and others that inspired this thread.

But you seem to have reversed your view that none of the responsibility lies with this girl so it's cool.

[debbierlus]

385. 18 year old having sex with five men she didn't know in a mens bathroom

....I still behind the view that the girl wasn't acting in a way that was in her best interest, either physical or emotional. I don't know any 18 year old girls personally who wouldn't find this situation over their heads.

If people here want to defend the right to non-restricted sex with anyone, at least be honest about the realities that go with these types of situations. From a legal standpoint, consent is consent and false charges from regret or embarrassment are not acceptable. However, with sex comes responsibility and sometimes consequences that people should be prepared to take. And, just because a woman barely meets the legal age of consent doesn't mean that men should take advantage of any situation just because they can.

I don't think the boys should be jailed for engaging in sexual acts with a woman who consents at a legal age (although video taping those sexual acts without permission is a big violation, and that fact alone shows some violation of the girl beyond what she consented to...)

[Gwendolyn]

395. You're doing it again.

Calling her an 18-year-old while the males of the same age are referred to as men.

Nobody is suggesting it was a brilliant idea to do what she did. It's the insistence that despite everything, she is not responsible for her decision. She MUST have been drunk, They MUST have forced her. She's naive, how could she POSSIBLY make a decision on her own. Even once the evidence was out, people are STILL insisting she had no choice in the matter. The "men" decided for her.

That thinking stems from the idea that any woman who might choose to indulge some out of the box adventure is a whore, a slut, brain-damaged. That's why people are grasping at straws making excuses for this girl, no matter how bad her behavior after the fact. I'm sure you have a lot of experience as the mother of a teenage girl and through your employment, but speaking of my own, as a former college student who occasionally did things that would've given my parents a coronary... I'll say that sometimes girls do things... just because. Because they feel like it at the time. Because it's dangerous and intriguing. Because it's new... because... just because. Simple as that. Sometimes these adventures make for cherished or funny memories. Other times regretful experiences that help you grow into adulthood as a better person.

If I were that girl's mother, right now I'd be devastated that I raised my daughter to fear some boyfriend so much, to be so cowardly and seemingly lacking in character, that she would send others to prison to cover her own activities. I'd be upset about the gangbang for sure, but the other thing would break my heart.

[debbierlus]

407. Well, maybe you are right. I can't believe for the life of me that any eighteen year old girl

Who winds up in this situation has any idea about the reality of it and the consequences it can have emotionally. I have seen so much hurt surrounding this type of shit, I have seen no evidence in my own life and through my own friends and through my work that these situations ever stem from some girl's empowerment to experiment, the cases I know of have been just the opposite.

Girls/women acting out of really hurt and damaged places within their own psyche.

Theoretically, your argument makes sense.

In reality, I don't see these situations playing out as good fun or without serious repurcussions to the girls who participate in them.

(These situations being the type of encounter we are talking about here - my argument was never that it is impossible for different sexual lifestyles to be sexually fulfilling for women).

I don't buy it. Maybe somewhere there is an eighteen year old woman who can have sex with a randomn five guys in a mens bathroom and it is just all good fun and laughs. I haven't met one yet.

[Forkboy]

292. I'm not trying to imply you are a prude, and I'm sorry that it came across that way.

Sorry, but I do not know of one single woman who has been through the sort of sexual act as the Hofstra University student and felt it was a positive experience.

I know three who do, including one girl who did it quite often. She grew up in the most normal family you could possibly imagine. We used to joke about her parents being the Cleavers. It's all just anecdotal evidence on both of our parts, and doesn't automatically translate into it being the case with everyone, either in a good way or a bad way.

And, I think what is not being mentioned here is the responsibility of the men who engage in this type of sexual behavior without knowing the other person. How can you possibly make a responsible & ethical decision about engaging in that type of sex without even knowing the person you are going to do it with?

What is the responsibility of the woman who did this act? She met all those boys that night as well, so she couldn't have known them either. Doesn't she also share the very same responsibility? If you don't respect yourself first, odds are no one else will either. Both parties (or in this case, all the parties) share the same responsibility equally. This is kind of what I'm talking about when one just assumes that she's bears no responsibility for what happened herself. It's treating her like she's too dumb to make her own choice, and the boys should just automatically know it's wrong, even if she says yes. It's saying she doesn't even know what's right for her own self, and that it takes other people to do the right thing because she can't. It takes all the power OUT of the woman's hands and treats her like a fragile child incapable of making grown up decisions. I don't see woman like that at all.

People have one night stands all the time. You may not like that ethics or morals isn't a factor for these people (to be honest, one night stands hold no interest for me), but it is what it is. Men and women screw all the time for no other or deeper reason than to have sex. Responsibility doesn't enter into it very often for a whole boatload of people. We can wish otherwise, but for now that's just how it is.

Given that there is such a strong correlation between this type of sexual activity and past sexual abuse and trauma, it might occur to a responsible male that engaging in that type of sex with a woman might have the capacity to emotionally harm her further. Or, is it only that she said 'yes' and his moral obligation ends there.

It might also occur to a responsible woman that this may not be the best plan of action for her. And how could a man know that unless she told him? And this will sound very cold, but yes, once she says yes both of their moral obligations pretty much do end, unless she then says no, in which case he has to stop. They have no moral obligation to even like one another after the deed (or even during it), and from the sounds of things, that's how a lot of one night stands end up once both sober up.

Age of consent is a legal term. I am talking about the responsibility we have to each other as human beings.

I honestly do understand what you're saying, and I respect your approach very much. I wish more people did look at sex with an eye for caring and respect. But the legal term can't be discarded, because we can't force people to be responsible once they're adults, and by law, 18 is usually the age of consent (I think it varies in a couple of states, and I know it's lower in many other countries). Once someone passes the age we deem them old enough to be responsible they no longer have to be, no matter how much we wish otherwise. We have an idea of what is right, but that may not be their idea, and as adults they are under no obligation to care what other adults think they should or shouldn't do, or how they should be towards others. I'm not advocating that, just saying that's how it is.

Entering into sex or any act in love (not necessarily in love or even precluding a one night stand, just approaching each other in a loving way and treating each other well would negate a lot of this type of pain.

I agree, and that's why I try to approach sex that way myself. I wish everyone would respect each other when it comes to sex. It's not up to me though. Only them.

I think we actually agree on far more than it may appear here. We're just coming at it from somewhat different angles. I'm talking about what is and you're talking about what should be. :)

Thanks for your responses. I really do appreciate it.

[debbierlus]

357. I think we agree more then disagree as well..

I am not negating the girl's responsibility in these situations. My point was that the man hold's some responsibility as well.

Look, I am the mother of a teenage daughter and surrounded by her teenage friends. They are so young and so vulnerable and I just don't want any of them to be used or be hurt. A mom will feel this way. I also have a grown son, and I can understand the situation from the guy's point of view. I certainly wouldn't want him to ever have his life ruined because of a lie a girl told because she got in over her head.

We agree. It takes two. If we could all just go forth in love and be a little more thoughtful, it would be to the benefit of everyone.

[Withywindle]

398. But why do you keep referring to an 18-year-old woman as a GIRL

when the males involved, the SAME AGE, are "men"? Either both are "girls" and "boys" or both are "men" and "women" - and the words involved do change the tone of the discussion. Funny - when I was a kid, it was conventional wisdom that girls matured faster than boys. Is that only true in middle school and then hits a wall at college age? I don't believe it.

That's the point people are trying to make. Infantilizing. Assuming that women of a certain age need more protection from their own dubious choices than men of the same age -- especially when it comes to sex, as if sex has some kind of magical power that makes it, as bad choices go, worse than, say, getting in a car with a drunk driver--THAT is something that bothers me very much.

[Gwendolyn]

404. What's amazing is how desperate people are to insist the Hofstra case was a rape.

They actually still hope it somehow turns out to be a gang rape despite all evidence that a good time was had by all. Because the sexist, puritan mindset is unwilling to accept that such a concept could exist, the only alternative would be to label the girl a whore and a traitor to feminism. They'd rather envision her the victim of a horrible crime.

[Withywindle]

405. From all accounts it sounds like the WOMAN (I'll keep working that point, cause she's legally adult)

initiated it. Probably out of some angry acting-out at her boyfriend, but still - bad choice? Probably. Rape? Hell no.

The thing that bothers me is that there are many self-proclaimed "feminists" who'd rather label her as either some kind of mental defective (too much TV, it MUST be, or peer pressure infecting her tiny helpless little female brain) or a whore and write her off rather than admit that this world is FULL of fully matured, unapologetic women who are kind of drawn to raunchy, raw casual sex. Who think it's not the worst thing in the world.

Who in whatever career as doctors or writers or teachers or physicists, 20 years from now, will probably be hanging out with their friends laughing about, "Oh yeah and one time I took on 5 guys in a bathroom," and it's just not that big a fuckin' deal. It's JUST sex, and anyone who believes it has the power to "taint" a woman for life is up there with the ignorant redneck dog breeders my parents used to try to deal with when they did rescue, who thought that if a purebred bitch had ever born puppies by a mongrel, she'd never be able to make purebred puppies again. Sorry, guys. The influence of teh cock is fleeting, no matter how mighty you think it is. The sperm is there for about 24 hours max and then the female gets on with her life. It does not have the power to mark a woman (or bitch-dog or queen-cat or mare-horse or she-snake or whatever species) for even a week, much less a lifetime.

The pussy is not a finite resource. It's not like any woman is ever going to RUN OUT of it. Some of us LIKE our ill-advised, reckless adventures and are glad we have those memories.

There is a certain school of self-proclaimed "feminist" that believes even more strongly in the virgin/whore dichotomy than even the religious right. I try to avoid any group of women who thinks that patronizing other women or engaging in "slut-shaming" is A-OK. Those women are not my "sisterhood."

[Gwendolyn]

406. Thoughtful post, and very well stated. Couldn't agree more WW! :-)

[Withywindle]

410. Thanks hon.

I am a feminist. A rock-ribbed one, have been since birth and will be till I die. But my version of feminism involves an understanding that women are INCREDIBLY diverse. We differ from each other as individuals every bit as much as men do, and that's the massive injustice of the past: that men were free to be farmers, fisherman, masons, politicians, astronomers, aesthetes, libertines, monks, engineers, drunks, captains, sailors, soldiers, ironworkers, architects, poets, musicians, assassins, counselors, scribes, novelists, clerks, doctors, naturalists, painters, etcetera etcetera ad infinitum. (And whatever they did in bed were for the most part ignored.) Whereas for most of human history, the female options were: whore, nun, schoolteacher or wife/mother. We have spent most of human history snuffing out and repressing the talents and interests of half our population.

Sexuality doesn't rule the intellects of women any more than it does that of men. But society does. I grieve for all the women whose rebellious souls got snuffed out in their teens. Sexuality is part of that exploration. I grieve for the female Juvenals, Catulluses, Chauchers, Shakespeares, Donnes, Millers, Kerouacs, etcetera, who'd get burned at the stake in their time (even now, metaphorically) for living a full raw sexual adventurus life and telling the eloquent truth about it.

I know there are many women with a lower sex drive than me. That's FINE. I don't judge them. There's nothing wrong with that. But I also have a very high one, I know it, I'm fine with that -- and I don't negatively judge the women with a higher one even than mine! That's not too much to ask from feminism, is it? It shouldn't be.

[debbierlus]

408. I think we need to face some biological realities here...sex is not the same for men and women

It just isn't.


From a PURELY biological stance...

Men have a billion sperm and their sexual nature is programmed to mate with a lot of different women to spread their seed. Women have one egg and biologically programmed to find a mate (again, biologically speaking, someone who can provide food and shelter) and mate to help raise an off-spring. This is the reality that developed over millions of years to help the species survive.

So, there is big differences in the very nature of how we are sexually programmed. Whether we like it or not, this is true.

And, these biological differences show up in how men and womean approach relationships and sex. You can't dismiss this when confronting how the realities of these type of sexual encounters play out.

[Odin2005]

205. Excellent post!

:yourock:

[Codeine]

274. But sex CAN be shared that way.

I've done it. My girlfriend has done it. We're both fine.

[tammywammy]

96. What I found disturbing about the threads

Is that it seemed unconsciousable that a woman could actually want to have sex with 5 men at once. That some posters automatically assumed something had to be wrong with her. Then you had posters discussing the "disgusting" "hedonistic" about it saying basically, sex that's not rose petals, soft candle light, with someone you love, missionary style, is gross or immoral.

Overall, I found a few posters to have a tone of, well I know better than you and women shouldn't participate in something like group sex b/c it's degrading to all women (even if said woman, likes group sex and initiates the event).

[debbierlus]

103. 18 years old? I don't think that a person has it figured out what is good for them with one person

Let alone five...

[tammywammy]

107. Isn't she an adult? Didn't she consent to it?

And what about older people? I mean we had posters on here saying they participate in group sex, only to be told/implied they were sluts, whores, disgusting people. At what point does a person take responsibility for their decisions regarding sex?

Edited to add: And regretting ones actions the next day, isn't rape.

[subcomhd]

115. "Edited to add: And regretting ones actions the next day, isn't rape."

I think some truly believe this.

[debbierlus]

124. In my experience, and the girls I have known who have found themselves in this type of situation

At a very young age (at the same type of parties) - they all have expressed how they felt like it got out of control and they didn't know how to stop it. I worked with this age population for years. I know too many of these types of stories and I have yet to hear one where the girl felt it was just such a blast and a good time.

Eighteen is the legal age of consent. And, a girl who engages in this type of thing with consent can't be sending the guys to jail out of regret. I agree with you.

However, it takes maturity and a sense of really knowing oneself to make good sexual judgements.

A orgy with five strangers in a bathroom at the age of eighteen most likely isn't the healthiest choice for a young woman.

I would not call her a slut or a whore. Just a inexperienced girl who doesn't know how to set boundaries or take good care of herself.

[tammywammy]

135. Ahh, see that's the difference

You aren't calling her a slut or whore, though there are some on DU that DO view consenting adult (including other DUers) as participating in vulgar hedonistic events.

I DO agree that an 18 year old probably isn't making the healthiest choices by participating in sexual escapades such as group sex. The failure lies with teaching women AND men to learn early about what boundaries they are going to set, to think about what do they feel is the right expression of their sexuality, and that could or could not include something like group sex.

But as with everything in life, sex is yet another experience full of learning opportunities. I did things when I was younger that honestly weren't good choices, but I learned "hey, yeah, I don't think that was a good idea" and wizened up over the years, or so I like to think. But the same goes with everything in life, that you make mistakes and hopefully learn from them and eventually figure out what's good for you.

[Odin2005]

160. My "vulgar hedonism" comment came from anger, I wasn't thinking when I posted it.

I was angerly reacting to what I thought was an implication that there is something wrong with people like myself who don't like to engage in promiscuous behavior, just like how our corporate masters blame us for the recession by saying we are not being good consumerist robots.

I hold an Aristotelian view of golden means of behavior, moderation is good, extreme asceticism and extreme hedonism are bad.

[tammywammy]

161. The reaction comes from

Posters stating they "know" better than those that participating in activities you may not have any desire to do. That's fine. I'm not a proponent of group sex, I've never done it, I have no interest in it, but I don't really care if other consenting adults do it. I'm not grossed out by it, I don't find it vulgar, it's just not my cup of tea.

There's nothing wrong with not participating in things you don't want to do, but realize while you may not like it, there are some adults that do like things like group sex and that doesn't make them disgusting/dirty/sluts/whores because they happen to have a different view point than you on sex.

[PassingFair]

356. No, but it does mean that I would exclude those people from my own choice of partners.

I had a roommate who slept with many men,
often more than one at a time, I didn't
really care what she did, and she remained
my friend for a long time.

BUT, I would NEVER have dated any of her
"boyfriends" or put myself in a position
where I would have had to excuse myself from
the shenanigans.

Yuck.

P.S. She ended up with STD's and couldn't
bear children when she wanted to.

[Zix]

155. Please ignore my response to you below.

You've clarified your position admirably here in response to the question it asked (bows low)

[debbierlus]

127. And, she didn't consent to being filmed. She didn't know there was a tape

That is a violation right there.

I am sure everyone here would agree that everything should be mutually agreed upon, if it is to be truly consensual.

[tammywammy]

141. But on that point

Thank god the men DID tape it, since without the tape they would be still sitting in jail and looking a long prison sentences for rape.

Their failure to get approval for taping the event is ranked quite low compared to having someone falsely accuse you of rape.

[subcomhd]

170. but aren't you glad they did? nt

[Zix]

152. With all due respect

How would YOU know? You can't make assumptions based on people about their age.

Presumably you'd raise the age of consent for sex?

[comrade snarky]

109. That is exactly what has bothered me

The assumption that a woman is incapable of making a choice or that some forms of sexual expression are inherently degrading and wrong.

[tammywammy]

112. Exactly

And while group sex isn't my cup of tea, I really don't care what consenting adults do in the privacy of their home.

Hell, my mom's a nudist, I just prefer for her to keep her clothes on when I'm around. ;)

[SpookyCat]

123. Thank you Forkboy, well said.

I'm too tired today to get into this, I'll let Comrade speak for both of us (uh oh, I'm I going to get in trouble for that? LOL) But I do appreciate your points and thoughtfulness on this issue.

:hug:

:toast:

[TexasObserver]

158. Recommend and endorse your OP.

Acceptance is the progressive goal, not mere tolerance. The latter suggests that one has to learn to "put up with" some belief or practice of others, while the former suggests learning to live and let live.

As long as only adults are involved, I do not care what any person or any group of people do to get off. MOST fetishes seem weird to me and aren't the least bit attractive to me, but I don't care what other people do to get off, as long as they are adults and they are consenting. They want to wear all rubber, dress up like animals, pee on each other, tie each other up, or have sex with many partners? Don't care. Whatever floats their boat is just fine by me.

I do not find homosexuality disgusting. I think that those who say they find homosexual acts disgusting are not accepting.

[Odin2005]

220. Tolerating misogynistic memes isn't Progressive.

Young men learning that sex is "exploitation" and "conquest" is not progressive. Young women being peer-pressured into "putting out" is not progressive. Calling people that have issues with the memes underlying things like gang-bangs "Misandrists" and "prudes" is not progressive.

The problem is not with people making their own decisions. it's that misogynistic memes lead to both men and women making bad decisions. It's the MEMES I am concerned about, the the individual behavior.

[musette_sf]

231. +1

[TexasObserver]

290. Stop being such a scold.

Nothing in my post is the launching point for your curious screed, which appears to be something that you just blurted out, unable to connect it to anything.

It's traditional that a REPLY should have some connection to the post to which it makes REPLY.

There may have been a post on this thread that YOUR post was appropriate in response, but it sure wasn't mine.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

173. A prude.

[Odin2005]

213. As the poster that thinks date rape is OK, you shouldn't be talking.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

218. Case in point.

[Hannah Bell]

214. circular.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

223. Circular? No. If, then.

If somebody who hates gay sex is a homophobe, then what is somebody who hates orgies? A prude.

What is homophobia but a radical subset of prudery?

[Hannah Bell]

250. they're both circular.

but it's easier to label than think.

[Zoeisright]

177. Face it. Anybody else's sex is just icky.

I don't spend my time imagining others having sex. I think homophobes do, and most of the right wing as well.

[intaglio]

179. Observations only

I usually find observing sex play involving a man unerotic; not disgusting, just not erotic. It doesn't matter if it is male/female or male/male my reaction is just "meh". Various women I have known have been gay and I sometimes see them kissing, that I do find erotic but not in the sense of wanting to join in, I usually make my excuses and find someway of contacting my partner.

With regard to others reactions to male intercourse more than 30 years ago I was a member of fandom. Part of that was a flourishing underground network producing pornographic fiction sometimes called Slash. One sub-genre was Kirk/Spock or KS and the most productive authors were generally young women who certainly seemed to enjoy (many) heterosexual relationships :evilgrin:

I don't know if it is relevant but Phillip Larkin (the poet) was a raging heterosexual and produced girls school lesbian pornography on the quiet.

In respect of group activities I find them mainly meh but the closest I have ever been to such an experience was certainly very erotic (thank you Barbara, Kim, Irene, Helen, Pam, Ann and Donna that was a memorable birthday party)

[Time for change]

184. I agree with you ... I think

I don't make value judgments about anyone's mutally consensual sex life. Period.

But I didn't understand the other thing you were talking about. Were you saying that if a person is disgusted (in the physical, not the moral sense) by, for example, sex between two men, then that person is homophobic. I would say he is not. And I say that because I believe that we have little or no control over what we find physically disgusting.

[Forkboy]

216. Ok, I've had to think on this one as Juche raised the same point upthread.

Were you saying that if a person is disgusted (in the physical, not the moral sense) by, for example, sex between two men, then that person is homophobic. I would say he is not.

I meant more morally, but I guess physically as well to a point. As another poster just said, he doesn't find it disgusting, just not a personal turn on, which is where I stand on it. Disgust with something is usually backed up by hatred of said activity and the ones who engage in it. The ones who say it makes me want to puke rarely look upon gay people with much kindness. Certainly not always though, and I should have clarified this much better in my OP.

And I say that because I believe that we have little or no control over what we find physically disgusting.

We can, however, control what that disgust leads to and how it makes us treat the ones engaging in that behavior. I know due to things that have happened to me that I question the validity of every intense emotion I feel, be it love, hate, or disgust, and I question what direction it takes me in.

Thanks for your post, and getting me to think about this better.

[Time for change]

317. Exactly

Perhaps "disgusting" is not the right word. But I think that it's perfectly plausable for a person to find an act physically revolting without passing moral judgment on it or harshly judging those who engage in the act. And not only plausable, but very common.

[Forkboy]

327. I appreciate people talking about that and making me think about it.

:toast:

[Time for change]

333. Me too

That's why I recommended your post.
:toast:

[LeftyMom]

200. ANY SEX I DON'T WANT TO HAVE IS PERVERTED AND WRONG!!1! FREAKS!!11!

Just kidding. As long as all parties involved fully consent I really don't give a fuck who you fuck, let alone how.

[Indenturedebtor]

211. I disagree with your premise. Being disgusted by gay sex doesn't mean I'm afraid of it

What people want to do with their own bodies in a consentual interaction is their business. I don't have to want to watch it.

[donheld]

222. I'm disgusted by the thought of 95% of all people when I think of them in sexual way

gay, straight, whatever. It's just not a good idea to think about most people's sex lives. It happens
I know, but I don't have to think about it. Thank god there's a world of other things to think about.

[eridani]

226. There is no such thing as a sexual practice that is "gay"

Gays and lesbians don't do anything with each other that heterosexual couples don't do also. I ought to know, being bisexual.

[DireStrike]

228. People have the right to be disgusted

You can call them X-phobic or whatever you want. But if you want people to stay out of your bedroom, you can start by staying out of others' minds.

[Beer on a stick]

233. I'm sorry, this is so stupid in so many ways.

A. What is your gender?
B. What have you done sexually that's extra-gender?

[Forkboy]

238. Considering that "boy' is in my name, the gender part shouldn't be hard to figure out.

:crazy:

The rest is none of your business, just as your sex life is none of mine. Any point you have to make worth making can be made minus that info.

Besides, my mother is a DUer and she may well be reading this. :rofl:

[Beer on a stick]

239. OK, that's fine. You have no idea what motivates other peoples' sexuality.....

and you've demonstrated that you like to assume a lot a pretend that you don't.

How's that for a start?

[Forkboy]

278. That's part of the point of my OP, if you knew how to read.

[comrade snarky]

241. Well, I guess that's one benefit to my parents leaning republican

Benefit... republican...

I just threw up a little.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

269. Hiya, Ma! We luv your boy!

...in a mutually consensual, non-abusive, liberally-sanctioned kind of way.

Unless, of course, he asks for the deluxe. :spank: Whee!

[Forkboy]

280. LOL

:hug:

[JI7]

244. the attitude toward the woman reminds me of those Promises of Virginity things

it's usually the girls who have to make that promise to their fathers. to remain "pure" until marriage.

and they pledge by that stupid marriage to their fathers or whatever the fuck it is they do.

but notice it's almost always girls who have to do this.

the same with the responses to the threads about that girl. "naive young girl" . those guys were the same age as her but some so called feminists feel the guys were smarter and more mature than her becacuse they were men so they should have looked out for her .

and i personally know many woman from when i was a teenager who love to have sex with many guys without commitment to those guys. it doesn't matter what anyones opinion is on the sex. there are many different sexual acts . not everyone is going to be into everything. but why does any of that matter. let people do what they want.

[Odin2005]

253. No, it has to do with sexual double standards.

boys learn that sex is exploitation and conquest and girls learn conflicting that they need to engage of either extreme, of abstinence or promiscuity, but it's always the woman who is supposed to watch her behavior, not us guys, because "boys will be boys". THAT is the attitude I am criticizing.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

276. maybe thats what you think you are doing but all i have read from you is a criticis,m

of casual sex, even whilst consensual. whether women want it or not.

good intention or otherwise, controlling women whether by public disapproval or law, is paternalistic, sexist and frankly reduces womens' status in society to that of children.

[Gwendolyn]

258. Amazing how that works, isn't it?

18-year-old girls are all emotionally-bereft children, while 18-year-old males are MEN. I hope the next time I go to a job interview competing against 5 guys, the interviewer doesn't happen to remember that as a female I'm naturally more fragile, inferior being and give it to the more competent male.

Women just can't win against the oppressive anti-sexual-freedom crowd. If a woman indulges her natural capacity for superior endurance and pleasure by having more than one male, she's a victim of patriarchy, a damaged creature. If she and a couple of her friends share one male, she's STILL a victim of the patriarchy because the male is being serviced by numerous sex dolls. The only acceptable choices open to her it seems, are abstinence or a strictly one-on-one conventional relationship. Ahhhh... the lovely scent of freedom and equality! :crazy:

[Odin2005]

349. The behavior of individuals is none of my business, but...

That doesn't mean I can't point out that BOTH men AND women are both victims of misogynistic memes, attitudes that lead men to think that sex is conquest and that women have to either defend their "purity" from the conquerors or to give into them in order to be cool.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

275. because what fun is there in controling male bodies? none.

:hi:

[PVnRT]

383. I hear some men pay well to have their bodies controlled

The stories I could tell of my wife's college roommate (and maid of honor) would frighten the hell out of some people in this thread.

[Withywindle]

399. I beg to differ.

I have on occasion had a LOT of fun that way. :evilgrin:



I knew that wasn't what you meant in the larger sense. I had to say it though.

[flvegan]

251. My cat's breath smells like cat food.

[seabeyond]

259. hey....

i was at a football game for kids and saw a window decal like your avatar and thought you in amarillo for a minute. what is that thing

[flvegan]

287. It's the "symbol" if you will

for Marvel icon The Punisher.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher

[seabeyond]

289. ahhhhh. ok thanks. hubby has the movie

i havent seen it.

[Forkboy]

293. I tried to warn you about 9 Lives Casserole.

:)

[tjwash]

260. ...

nevermind.

[cynatnite]

262. Incest disgusts me. What does that make me? n/t

[Forkboy]

294. Are you comparing gay sex or group sex to incest?

If so, there's a lot of things that makes you, none of which I better post. :P

[cynatnite]

302. Nope.

I don't believe that being disgusted by an act of sex makes one homophobic.

[Forkboy]

304. Ok. I addressed this is another post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6591922&mesg_id=6593838

[cynatnite]

310. All I can say is this...

My husband finds gay sex disgusting. He has seen it on occasion and it does repulse him. Now, he and I both have relatives that are gay and when he's seen them kiss in a romantic way, it doesn't bother him at all.

I just think being disgusted by something, no matter what it is, doesn't make one afraid or hateful.

Now, if someone expressed disgust by two men kissing then I'd question if they were homophobic. A simple act like that shouldn't bring about that kind of negative reaction unless they were homophobic, IMO.

[Forkboy]

316. Fair enough.

:toast:

[redqueen]

265. This subject is so fraught with issues for so many women.

I don't think men could ever understand how much of a minefield this is. We are given so many conflicting messages about sex and sexuality.

[Hello_Kitty]

266. Oh but fear not, for some "dudes" are only too happy to let us know what we should think. eom

[comrade snarky]

270. You have a reply to me

Make it at post 255 where you decided what I think based on the complete opposite of what I said to you.

Dude

[Hello_Kitty]

372. Which has nothing to do with my reply here.

You claim you don't like porn. That's you.

You think porn only appeals to derelicts and the "lowest common denominator". Shows what you know.

Which was kinda like you telling me what to think but hey, that's different. :eyes:

[comrade snarky]

384. OK, So you have no defense for making crap up

Because it's what you wanted to hear even though it's the opposite of what I said and then making a little passive aggressive dig later in the thread. Nothing in this post bears any resemblance to anything I've said on this thread.

It's good to be clear.

Toodles, there is no point talking to you.

[Odin2005]

272. +1

[Forkboy]

296. Sexuality is fraught with issues with both sexes.

Half of which is imposed by our insistence that sex is dirty unless it's strictly one type of sex.

I don't think men could ever understand how much of a minefield this is.

Say that to any teen boy. Trust me, we know what a minefield sexuality is. This isn't a contest.

We are given so many conflicting messages about sex and sexuality.

Our whole society is. We're bombarded day in and day out with sexuality in all it's myriad forms, from tv to movies to music to books, all the while being told it's wrong, unhealthy, disrespectful, etc by the same society obsessed with it.

[redqueen]

375. I wasn't trying to make it a contest. I honestly do not think the scales

are anywhere near balanced.

[eShirl]

267. I don't dwell on visualizing sex acts that I'm not interested in.

Problem solved.

[PerfectSage]

273. Anyone who is homophobic and obsesses about how disgusting gay sex is; ... ....

is probably a repressed homosexual. ie half the gop are probably log cabin republicans.

[pitohui]

279. gangbanging is not "group sex"

i notice a lot of people trying to be cool when they have no clue what they're talking about and probably never had a "group" encounter in their lives outside their fantasies

group sex, partying with a mixed group of men and women who are relating as equal -- and you will notice at most swing clues alcohol is NOT served and not allowed -- is quite different from multiple drunk young males piling on a drunk young female

got nothing to do w. young females vs. old -- it's got to do w frat boy/pro-rapists attitudes that come from the bad old days that are trying to pose as "new and cool" when they are same old tired 1950s bullshit

what part of "consenting" in "consenting adults" do you not get? if you want to argue it's ok to get somebody drunk and helpless before you gang them, don't expect ME not to call you on it

the frat boy element wants to bitch that there are too many women over 40 at the clubs -- that tells me A LOT about what i need to know about how important "consent" really is to that type

[Gwendolyn]

291. Funny that you condescend to people who you claim have no "clue"

...when all you've done is pick the most tired, made-for-tv cliché there could possibly be, and insist that it's the only possibility. :eyes:

[subcomhd]

295. you make a very good point when you say

"the frat boy element wants to bitch that there are too many women over 40 at the clubs -- that tells me A LOT about what i need to know about how important "consent" really is to that type."

Because any frat boy who doesn't want to hook up whith someone his mom's age must be a rapist. i never thought about it like that. it makes perfect sense.

[Forkboy]

306. Staggering, isn't it?

And these are the ones on OUR political side of the isle. :scared:

[seabeyond]

309. this is the thing forkboy. with post like this, you are basically saying

regardless of peoples concern for the possible abuse of people, and heartfelt explanations the best that can be made (some of it very legitimate concern and recognition without judgment), all that is ignored and this is what you reduce it all to

that is insulting.

as much as you like to say others are/were insulting to those that enjoy group sex

this too is putting people in their place. it is not a position of understanding.

and my saying this to you is not a matter of disrespect either.

[subcomhd]

311. seabeyond, you are semi-reasonable at times so please explain this statement

It is what I was commenting on that FB replied to that you replied to with the post I'm now replying to (got all that?)

but seriously, explain this "logic"

"the frat boy element wants to bitch that there are too many women over 40 at the clubs -- that tells me A LOT about what i need to know about how important "consent" really is to that type."

[seabeyond]

314. oh

didnt get it at all. so cant explain it.

[subcomhd]

318. OK I don't feel so dumb. nt

[Gwendolyn]

324. This is what it means...

18-year-old girls are dumb and emotionally-crippled so it's much easier to take advantage of them. 40-year-old women are wise and shrewd and you can't put anything over on them, so frat boys don't want them at the clubs because they "won't get any" from these women. From a volume stand-point, you'd rather have the space filled up with dumb, young ones.

[subcomhd]

328. So it was a put-down of young women?

And what would frat boys be doing hitting on women their mom's age? Is there some sort of cougar club where she lives, one wonders?

[Gwendolyn]

337. If there was some sort of cougar club around her area...

I'd bet my house it would actually be filled with young guys and frat boys. :D For the same reason lots of young women prefer older men. Experience, self-sufficiency, and also, older lovers are less likely to lurch around outside your dorm/apt building in drunken tears, throwing snowballs at your window and threatening suicide if you break up with them.

But yes, in general it's a put down of young women. The poster just has it wrong on all levels.

[subcomhd]

340. lol . you are probably right

and

"lurch around outside your dorm/apt building in drunken tears, throwing snowballs at your window and threatening suicide if you break up"

is too funny. I dated her in two different incarnations many, many years ago. except for the snowball part (and add a car-keying) ah, those were the days?

[Gwendolyn]

344. Mine happened in the northeast in January, so there were snowballs involved.

Yes, the good old days of college, 20-some-thing drama! :D

Not sure why, but car keying seems to be a favorite revenge tool utilized by women.

[Forkboy]

312. I have no urge to be understanding with this poster due to something you're unaware of.

And I'm frankly tired of you putting words in my mouth today.

you are basically saying, regardless of peoples concern for the possible abuse of people, and heartfelt explanations the best that can be made (some of it very legitimate concern and recognition without judgment), all that is ignored and this is what you reduce it all to.

No, that's what you want to read into it. I was respectful to you and others who disagreed with me and didn't reduce yours or their concerns at all. That I chose to not give a shit about respecting this poster is based on a past incident that you don't know about, and has nothing to do with reducing the concerns of people such as yourself.

[subcomhd]

322. what did he/she/it say to you? Do tell. nt

I'm always interested in the opinions of people that think a woman must be 40 before consenting to sex.

[seabeyond]

323. And these are the ones on OUR political side of the isle

again. i can only go off what i read. and these are the ones, plural, is what i read. as if you are talking about the people that voice concern.

i am not trying to put words in your mouth. geeesh

[Forkboy]

326. I'm including anyone who makes statements such as these and believes them.

1 - "i notice a lot of people trying to be cool when they have no clue what they're talking about and probably never had a "group" encounter in their lives outside their fantasies."

Unprovable assumption.

2 - "gangbanging is not "group sex"

Actually, it is. Just not not the kind of group sex the poster thinks it should be.

3 - "what part of "consenting" in "consenting adults" do you not get?"

What part didn't she get? The girl was an adult who consented. That's called adult consent.

4 - "the frat boy element wants to bitch that there are too many women over 40 at the clubs -- that tells me A LOT about what i need to know about how important "consent" really is to that type"

As another already said, not wanting to be with someone the age of their mother doesn't make them rapist, as is the all too clear implication of this stupidity. This poster assumes frat boys are rapists and pedophiles for wanting to be with someone their age. Is that the kind of logic you want to defend here? is this the kind of logic you believe Democrats and liberals should support and try to understand?

If you honestly think any of that nonsense deserves respect, even minus the past history between me and her, than I don't know what to tell you. And yes, there has been more than one on DU over the last couple of days saying stuff just like this. The plural is correctly placed. It IS scary that some of these people have no critical thinking skills, and who spout utter shite like this, are on our side. If you think it's ok then our mileage differs greatly.

[seabeyond]

332. well

i have already stated my concerns and position. and i never take on another persons words, i pick mine carefully, for a reason.... deciding their right or wrong in it. saying i dont speak for them. a lot of times it is in context. i can actually look beyond a specific to see the whole they are stating. agenda doesnt matter much to me. ideas and thoughts i value. i know people have said offensive things and name calling, both sides of the fence. not much into either of those.

i dont see why it has to be an all or nothing. i dont know why there has to be criticism in teaching both our boys and girls to consider the other person and be responsible. i dont think it is too much a parent is asking.

i have heard you mention a couple times the only parent seems to be the one that doesn't talk to kid, or gives puritan version. and that just isn't the whole picture. yet it cannot be embraced that a parent with open dialog may instruct a child the repercussions in the action of this situation of the thread, whatever college.

there seems to be little acceptance that our children can actually be responsible. and i really do not understand that nor the animosity to the parent trying to teach a child values, even in their sexuality.

[Forkboy]

341. This will be last reply to you for the evening, as you seem to digging for things to nitpick over.

i dont see why it has to be an all or nothing. i dont know why there has to be criticism in teaching both our boys and girls to consider the other person and be responsible. i dont think it is too much a parent is asking.

Very few parents in general have any sex talk beyond the merest of basics that probably just confuses the kids further, if any talk at all. Few parents openly talk about what sex is and what it involves, physically or emotionally, they just dance around the edges, too afraid to embarrass themselves or their children. I don't think it's too much to ask either, but why tell me? I've been agreeing with that concept, and told Odin that sex ed sucks in this country, both in schools and by most parents. I stand by that 100%, and in agreement with you.

i have heard you mention a couple times the only parent seems to be the one that doesn't talk to kid, or gives puritan version. and that just isn't the whole picture. yet it cannot be embraced that a parent with open dialog may instruct a child the repercussions in the action of this situation of the thread, whatever college.

The way this is structured doesn't even make sense. Your writing is getting very hard to follow.

there seems to be little acceptance that our children can actually be responsible.

This thread isn't, and never was, about children, despite people trying to inject them into it. But it's funny you say this, because it seems many of those bent out of shape over this woman engaging in group sex are saying that the boys weren't responsible, and that the girl wasn't either. So yeah, I agree. It's too bad we give our young adults so little credit.

and i really do not understand that nor the animosity to the parent trying to teach a child values, even in their sexuality.

And I really don't see where you get that from, as I haven't seen a single person say we shouldn't try to instill respect and values into children, sexually or otherwise.

[Odin2005]

353. IMO there seems to be an assumption...

...that saying it's OK for consenting adults to do what they want means that one cannot at the same time look at the societal causes of people's behavior. IMO this may be because such social criticism implies an attack on the notion of complete free will, something that scares people. People don't want to admit that "they" are not in perfect control over their own decisions.

[Forkboy]

354. Now THAT'S an excellent point, and one for me to ponder.

I definitely relate to the last line, as losing control is my absolute biggest fear. I let my anger get the better of me years ago and it almost resulted in someone's death. Since then, I've been hyper sensitive to losing control in any way. I have zero urge to control others, but I do think about it for myself daily.

[Odin2005]

358. That that is why a lot of social criticism scares people.

What philosophers call "Libertarian Free Will", the notion that the mind is a "first cause" of behavior, free from causality, is a very major part of the psyche of the average Westerner. It is the basis of "rugged individualist up-by-yer-boostraps" ideology and the notion that the poor "deserve to be poor". IMO this notion could not be more totally wrong and gets in the way of reasonable thinking on the issue, the choices of individuals CANNOT be separated from the wider social context. But the notion that they are not in complete control over their behavior, that they engage in stereotyped behavior imposed on them by society without even thinking critically about that behavior, seems to scare people.

[seabeyond]

359. i am tired. and then i go into a mr max thread, totally clueless and read about him. college

girls love the guy.

girl opens mouth to have men spit out their chewing tabacco into her mouth. vomit on a girl and video her without her knowing.

oh the fun. what a hoot. and these girls, totally capable of making the connections.

so very tired. lol

thanks odin

[Forkboy]

298. Oy vey.

i notice a lot of people trying to be cool when they have no clue what they're talking about and probably never had a "group" encounter in their lives outside their fantasies

I notice you making an assumption you can't possibly know.

what part of "consenting" in "consenting adults" do you not get?

What part don't you get?

Consent
1. To give assent, as to the proposal of another; agree. See synonyms at assent.
2. Archaic. To be of the same mind or opinion.

1. Acceptance or approval of what is planned or done by another; acquiescence. See synonyms at permission.
2. Agreement as to opinion or a course of action: She was chosen by common consent to speak for the group.

Now, is this girl an adult? Did she give consent? That would a yes to both. Therefore, it would appear I understand the meaning just fine. You, on the other hand, not so much.

if you want to argue it's ok to get somebody drunk and helpless before you gang them, don't expect ME not to call you on it

Well, that's awesome. You're an upstanding citizen and a paragon of virtue. Only I haven't argued that anywhere but in your fevered imagination. When I do I'll expect you'll swoop in and set me straight. At least argue with what I say, not with what you wish to argue with in your head.

the frat boy element wants to bitch that there are too many women over 40 at the clubs---that tells me A LOT about what i need to know about how important "consent" really is to that type.

It tells me assumptions are a big part of repertoire. Sadly, substance doesn't seem to be.

So, here's an assumption from me. I remember a post of yours to me over the summer that was about the lowest, shittiest post anyone has written to me in the 8 years I've been here. From this, I'm assuming you're not worth discussing this further with, so I hoped you enjoyed my answer. It's the only you're getting.

Have a nice evening.

[Odin2005]

351. Hence my mentioning of misogynistic memes and peer pressure.

[Warren DeMontague]

282. I think the thing to remember is that finger-wagging is some folks' primary form of exercise.

Beyond that, I agree with you. If everyone involved is a consenting adult, why the fuck is it any of my business to 'approve' or not? :shrug:

[TexasObserver]

297. Yes, I thought the GOP got all the sexual finger waggers, but apparently not.

What next? That Di-vor-cee down the block is entertaining single men in her home? The Jones girl is dating out of race? The Smith boy might be a sissy?

The judgments rendered against group sex are predated by these other judgments. They're all about the same thing: one person sticking their nose in another person's adult sexual conduct.

[Gwendolyn]

321. If you ask me, the whole trouble started when they took prayer out of schools! n/t

[KG]

288. i hate sex threads that don't turn me on.

:P

[Forkboy]

300. My ex-wife knows a great erotica message board site if you need a spicier thread.

I'm somewhat limited here on DU. ;)

[quaker bill]

299. If every one is an adult and a willing participant

I don't understand how or why it would or should become my business how they choose to sort it out. Personally, I find one woman to be entirely sufficient. More partners = more complications. I prefer the simple life.

[EndersDame]

303. Why is it that if a woman has multiple partners its a gang bang

[cbdo2007]

307. I don't know greenguy :)

[subcomhd]

315. it isn't specific to women and it's pretty self-explanatory

gang - a group of people

bang - slang for sex

[TexasObserver]

329. Because Prudes and Scolds need a catchy name for it.

The truth is that many who feign moral concern over group sex think ANY sex involving more than two people is perverse.

[seabeyond]

334. another dig. thread on people not being accepting. and post after post after post throws digs

name calls, and then says... what, what, no we aren't.

just another dig.

what is this TO, to shame everyone into your view. is that really what you promote. using shame. every person adopting this position as the whole purpose of the thread is acceptance and understanding.... dig after dig to shame. what is your purpose for the continual use of prude.

you dont have a clue about a single persons sexual life. you dont know what they do or dont do behind closed doors. so really it is an anonymous what???

it is such an adolscent and dishonest way for your own agenda.

[TexasObserver]

335. For you to criticize any poster for their conduct is laughable.

If you self identify as a SCOLD, well, you should know.

If others think you a scold or a prude, that is a judgment they make based upon your conduct.

I spoke of the need Scolds and Prudes had to wag their finger, and you took offense.

[seabeyond]

336. god only knows the definition. it seems to be anyone that isnt in a group of agreement.

anyone says anything about a kid taking responsibility with sex is then shouted down with prude. how the fuck do i know if i am in your group of scold. dont even know what scold is all about. is this scold, as in scolding for misbehavior.

if i have a differing view and express it, is that then scolding.

[Gwendolyn]

342. It's not about teaching children responsibility. But you know that.

The threads over the last few days have clearly shown that some people find every sexual activity that doesn't fit into the monogamous mold to be dangerous, misogynist, and worthy of derision. Some posts are outright shocking and filled with lies, particularly with regards to the Hofstra woman and the ability of young woman to choose what's right for them. Other comments regarding female sexuality made by many, including you, are akin to "I have nothing against gay people, I just don't like homosexuality." Disclaimers followed by disapproval. Socially tolerant people have simply been responding to these posts, not initiating them. No sex-positive, tolerant person has made one single disparaging comment regarding love and monogamy on any of these threads and I defy you to find one, (although considering divorce and spousal abuse stats, one has to wonder why there aren't any).

[seabeyond]

345. done. you just say whatever. not even going to bother. nt

[Odin2005]

355. It has EVERYTHING to do with what we teach out kids.

What individuals do in the privacy of their homes is not any my business, but that doesn't mean we should not teach our kids to be sexually responsible. Also, in agreement with SeaBeyond, that teen boys need to be taught to respect women, and women need to be taught to respect themselves, that that means teaching them to not engaging in behavior that is demeaning to women.

[Gwendolyn]

360. You've misunderstood. None of the comments re the prudes and scolds...

has to do with socially tolerant people claiming children should be allowed to run wild. Seabeyond keeps interjecting with the topic of children and that's not what any of this is about. No, thirteen and fifteen-year-olds should not be engaging in gang bangs or blow job parties. What idiot would suggest such a thing.

The OP makes mention of the Hofstra "girl" and how apparently she bears no responsibility for what she did whereas the MEN who are her age bear it all. You know all the reasons why. Misogyny, women "never" do those things willingly, blah blah, etc. You've read the thread so you know why people like me take offense to that.

I agree that children need to learn to respect themselves, and I can tell you that if that girl was mine, she'd be in such deep shit right now, she could taste it. Because I WOULD hold her responsible for her part in the encounter, and more so, I would be disappointed in her lack of character for lying. THAT shows lack of self-respect and respect for others.

But that's an aside. Seabeyond was asking why people call others on threads like these prudes and scolds. Was just trying to explain the concept. Others have as well.

[rebecca_herman]

368. I've been called a prude without provoking it so...

I'm happy with my choices so the label doesn't bother me, but I've been called a "stupid prude" for answering a question like "Have you ever watched porn?" with a simple "No, it just doesn't interest me." The person simply couldn't believe that I could just not have much of an interest in porn and I must be some kind of repressed freak. I've also been told there must be something wrong with me because I'm happy with my choice to still be a virgin at age 24. I think I just have a naturally very low sex drive/interest, and I'm actually ok with that and would not want it to change, so whatever. :-P

[Withywindle]

330. Thank you for saying this!

+10,0000


Especially this part: "By treating the women as being too immature or too foolish to make her own decisions, or too not the feminist you wish they were, isn't that being degrading to them and their intelligence when you know nothing about that person, their motivations, their desires, background or goals? Isn't it contradictory to tell someone they should respect a woman's intelligence while in essence telling some women "I know better than you?"


That assumption that any woman who consents to a kind of sex that someone else doesn't approve of must be somehow damaged, pressured, brainwashed by the patriarchy, or otherwise incapable of making her own decisions and taking responsibility for them ENRAGES me. No means no. And yes means yes.

[woo me with science]

339. Well said. nt

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

362. You Think Being Disgusted By Gay Sex Is Homophobic?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[ruggerson]

364. you roll around on your back a lot

with your legs up in the air? And it looks like you're really enjoying it.

[VMI Dem]

365. You think it isn't?

Not funny.

[Sky Masterson]

369. Yes..

Obviously you don't.
Just because I don't want to have gay sex doesn't mean I'm disgusted by it.
I guess if a man walked up to you and said. "You seem like a nice man would you like to go someplace and hook up" You would probably flair your nostrils in outrage and disgust instead of being flattered that anyone wanted to fuck you in the first place.
I've had men come on to me before and I told them politely that i'm not in to that. In the end I was flattered..
So yes it makes you Homophobic to be disgusted by gay sex.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

374. No, It Totally Doesn't.

And it is beyond hilarious to see people claim that it is...

[Forkboy]

377. You forgot the smilies so we can know how hilarious it is.

A half dozen smilies worth? 20?

[Sky Masterson]

381. You keep telling yourself that sweetheart

[Forkboy]

376. As always, your amazing intellect is a sight to behold.

A few more smilies and I would have been convinced.

Let the adults talk, little one.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

366. Bravo!

It's been enlightening, reading the replies to your very thoughtful and insightful OP. Sometimes, when we talk about sex, it seems that we've fallen into Freeperville, or the ghost of Jerry Falwell is standing naked in everyone's bedroom.

I did learn, though, that I have the right people on Ignore. Watching the responses to posts I cannot see - for which I am thankful - just affirms my decision. Ignore can be a good friend.

Underlying all of this, talk of societal pressure and memes (if I never hear or read that word again, I'd be very content) and promiscuity and this and that and the other, is one very basic fact:

Women have sexual power.

This young woman at Hofstra decided she wanted to have sex with those young men, so she went ahead and did it. She wasn't drunk, she wasn't coerced - she wanted it and she got what she wanted. Her rape story later was the result of events about which no one knows, and maybe it was buyer's remorse. In a bathroom, there's not much chance of a transcendent romantic and sexual adventure taking place.

But, it was her choice. She decided.

She exercised her sexual and personal power, and I say "Good for her!"

That people need to reduce her to some sort of incompetent, fragile, infantilized version of a woman who has attained her legal majority but who is not to be trusted when making questions about what she wants to do with her body or her life is most telling and most disturbing. They are trying to find all sorts of rationalizations that will allow them to prattle on and on about anything except the bare fact that is right under their noses:

She wanted it.

Sober and sane, she wanted to have sex with five young men in a bathroom.

I applaud her curiosity. Maybe she didn't have a good experience, but don't we all learn from our mistakes? And she was physically safe, no one hurt her, she was even invited to accompany the young men for the rest of the evening, so one can deduce that it was a matter of happy endings all around.

It's always entertaining to watch people as their own hang-ups send them into paroxysms of word salad and silly thinking. Talking about sex can do that when you're not entirely clear about your own sexuality and all its ramifications in daily life.

And there have been posts from people who sound as solid as can be, who state unequivocally that the young woman did what she wanted to do.

Thank you for this most lively and interesting discussion. It was brave of you to post what you did, knowing what you'd precipitate, but, for the most part, it was pretty damn civil, an admirable accomplishment........................

:toast:

[Name removed]

367. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yoyossarian]

373. Don't have sex. Sex is bad... mm-kay?

ALL sex is NAUGHTY!

Check out Perversion for Profit, a 1965 film produced by the MOST
MORAL MAN IN THE WORLD, Charles Keating. That'll set ya right!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxUX9VHo7VA">Perversion for Profit Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcNTdkbsuU4">Perversion for Profit Part 2

SEX... YUK!



Tee-shirts, buttons and other crap at
Laugh City!


President Evil Online has risen from the grave!

[Swamp Rat]

388. LOLOLOL!!!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:



:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Nice to see you! :hi:;):hug:

[TexasObserver]

386. Kick this most important of threads.

Whose responses have often reminded me of "I don't hate black people, but they make me nervous."

[Skittles]

390. OK

I am in no way homophobic; that being said, I find the idea of a "gang bang" utterly fucking repulsive - and I do believe I'd think the same if it was all males involved. Got it?

[Forkboy]

391. OK

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6591922&mesg_id=6593838

You can agree or not, but save the attitude. Got it?

[Skittles]

392. NO CAN DO

[Forkboy]

394. Then we'll have to save our conversations for the Lounge.

[billh58]

396. Does that

mean that you are "multiphobic?"

[Skittles]

400. no

it means I detest dehumanization

[billh58]

401. I believe that most

rational, sane, and caring people detest anything that degrades the overall and collective human condition, such as racism, slavery, war, poverty, and all forms of blatantly anti-social and harmful behavior. What people (or groups of people) freely, and consensually do in privacy, however, is neither my business, nor my concern, and has no bearing on how I choose to live my personal life.

Not everyone agrees on a universal definition of what is sexually "normal," or what would be considered sexually "dehumanizing." Most of those who would dictate, or legislate, sexual morality do so for purely religious or highly-opinionated reasons which have absolutely nothing to do with the general welfare of the human condition. Throughout history, various cultures have both celebrated, and vilified, all forms of sexual behavior. Some cultures allow men to have more than one wife, and others allow women to have more than one husband.

My previous comment was an attempt at humor, and I apologize if you were offended.

[Skittles]

402. does "gang bang" sound even remotely cool?

or does it sound like someone somewhere is being thoroughly dehumanized?

[billh58]

409. Whether you

choose to believe it, or not, some people enjoy simultaneous multiple sex partners. The term "gang bang" was picked up by the porn industry, and implies "gang rape," which would definitely be not only dehumanizing, but immoral, and illegal. On the other hand, to some people, "gang bang" is just another term for "orgy," or consensual group sex.

There is "staged" pornographic sex, and then there is real sex. As long as neither category involves forced sex, and take place between consenting adults, it is none of my, or your, business. What is "dehumanizing" to you, just may be ecstasy to the willing participants.

[FreeState]

397. Yes it does - and the fact that this thread gets more attention than threads asking to help save

marriage equality says a lot about DU.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

403. Disgusted is such a negative word

First of all, I don't think there is anything homophobic about not finding gay male sex appealing. As straight people, we are born to like and desire the opposite sex. As a male, I spent my youth trying to sex or at least get a sneak peak of the female body. That is what came naturally to me. That is what is appealing to me. I have played football, and served in the military, I am not unfamiliar with how a naked dude looks like, yet I have had no interest in doing something with another male. And yes, the thought of doing something with another male is very unappealing to me and probably to the point of nausea. Does that make me any less pro gay rights than the average liberal? I don't think so.

I work with a gay dude who is real cool, comfortable with his sexuality and open to talking about his personal life. He doesn't get in to any specific details, but he loves him some "Julio". I have spoken to him about how he feels about women. He flat out told me that the idea of performing oral sex on a woman disgust him and he would puke if he had to do it. Do I think he is a heterophobe? Hell no! That is just how he is wired. He still has plenty of female friends and is probably more pro female rights than gay rights.

People just need to cut the PC nonsense and be honest with themselves.

I do agree with the OP in his other point in regards to the Hofstra story. You can tell that the sexist mindset is just embedded in people on this board. The idea that a girl could never want to have sex with multiple guys at the same time is totally hilarious to me. Like I said before, this happens every weekend on college campuses and military bases. Women like sex just as much as men (probably more if you find the right one). Women like to get freaky just as much as men. It really bothers me that people believe that the poor girl was tricked in to banging five guys. Well, that is one hell of a trick. Someone please tune me in on the methodology.