Surface Area Required To Power The World Using Only Solar Power

[berni_mccoy]

[Zoeisright]

1. I sure do wish that people were pro-active instead of reactive.

We really have ruined this planet, and we're overdue for what's coming.

[Selatius]

2. We could create a crash-program to put solar panels on the roofs of single-family homes.

For apartment buildings and office towers, the space on the roof could also be used to put solar panels upon. The amount of area provided by roofs must be vast, and they are out of the way, so we're not talking about cutting down trees or knocking over buildings just to throw up a power station.

It could also provide jobs. If the federal government chartered a corporation specifically to mass produce solar panels and sub-divided production plants either by region or state, it could conceivably put many people back to work, and they could be enrolled in the federal government's health care exchange, the same one used by federal employees and senators/congressmen/the president. Even if it truly is cheaper to outsource production to China, that can be ignored. It would serve as a form of income redistribution, ideally paid for through progressive taxation, as well as a green energy alternative.

Two birds. One stone. It makes too much sense, so don't ever expect anything remotely like this to come to pass, unless America elects another FDR.

[tinrobot]

13. Economics will handle it...

The cost of solar is set to plummet in the next few years. One analyst predicts it will fall below 50cents per watt by 2011.

http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderdaily/2009/09/04/half-of-solar-firms-to-fail-analyst-says/

At that price, you can do a house for less than $10K. People and businesses will start installing solar simply because it's the cheapest form of power.

[immoderate]

39. I did a rough (Fermi math) calculation about 20 years ago.

I calculated that the roof top area of the US was about the same as the amount of solar panel necessary to supply all out needs. It shouldn't be too different for the rest of the world.

--imm

[bertman]

3. I only see the 2030 projection boxes so I assume that's what they want us to know.

This is very interesting information. And enlightening, for sure.

What would be really cool would be if we spread those collectors into homes and businesses all over the world instead of in giant collector farms. Then we wouldn't have to rely on some gigantic, energy-wasting grid that is subject to natural disaster or sabotage.

Thanks, Berni.

Recommend

[lordsummerisle]

4. From the map

it looks like if you paneled-up a chunk of Nevada, that should provide the power for the US.
The bigger question though is could you effectively distribute it? How much transmission line modification would this take?

[HillbillyBob]

7. I used to work on the grid. Copper is expensive and is subject to weather

problems. THe wires stretch in the summer with the heat and they can snap very easily, the higher the ambient temperature is the more they stretch and it messes with the conductivity.

The previous poster's suggestion about panels on every house is something I have been advocating for years I want to put them up on my house if I could afford the initial outlay.

We have cut our energy use in half and our winter fuel oil usage by 2/3.
Most of what we have done here are things that anyone can do and is not all that expensive and we are not sitting in the cold and dark or hot and dark. We have puters some that have to be on all the time.
We have a small green house for starting plants and rehabing them that uses about 300 watts, I changed out the halide lights that ran up to 1000 watts. We are phasing out the cfls as they die off replacing them with LEDs. I have listed all elsewhere on this site the sealing and painting the roof with white Kool Seal 287 and henry's primer. That has lowered the inside temps up to 30 degrees and we have not used ac all summer.

[truedelphi]

22. Having the solar producing stuff at each person's own home would allow us

To really run our own lives. We would be the producers, and the Big Utilities could go get lost.

I am hoping that just as they are saying that cars may soon be powered via solar by having the solar power-ization factor inside the paint itself might be a way to go with our homes as well.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

35. Outside of the sunbelt most homes cannot produce enough power to be self sufficient

In northern US latitudes, you might be able to break even a few months a year. You would still need to be grid tied. Then consider high rises. No way do they have enough surface area.

I have a grid tie system. Its a minor PITA to maintain, but effectively my power is no cost over and annual basis. I would love to expand it and get paid for supplying power to the grid, but here in California, you can not do it.

[itsrobert]

8. Isn't there all ready some transmission lines at nearby

Hoover Dam that can be modified. Power is distributed all the way to Los Angeles.

[Greyhound]

5. K&R.

Too bad this would cost so many parasites their source of graft. Life could be so much better if we could just realize why things are as fucked up as they are.

[TygrBright]

6. Cool! Looks like we'd have to relocate Phoenix.

But then, Phoenix is an armpit anyway, hogging water and churning out RW wackjobs at quite a clip. We could afford to bust it up and distribute them to less-sunny places. Say.... ummm... San Francisco!

impishly,
Bright

[tinrobot]

9. Please send them somewhere else.

Most people from Phoenix wouldn't like San Francisco anyways. Maybe Montana or Wyoming would take them.

[lunatica]

51. Yeah, they might catch teh gay if they come to San Francisco

Besideds we don't want them. They would muddy the mental gene pool .

[hunter]

37. We could bulldoze Phoenix flat and put solar panels on it.

Las Vegas too. That way we wouldn't disrupt remaining desert ecosystems. California's "Inland Empire" could go too. We could start with John Wayne Airport and work our way out to LA/Ontario International Airport.

If we don't want to condemn private land quite yet, there are plenty of useless Air Force Bases in sunny climates we could start with...

[berni_mccoy]

57. Nah, there is plenty of Solar Energy to be had across the U.S.

[Lorien]

69. Salt flats

it could be used for a better purpose than merely a vehicle testing ground.

Besides; you'd want to space the power stations out for security reasons.

[stuball111]

10. And put 12 volt light bulbs in every house..

That would cut down on power needed and could be run off batteries in a house during night time.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. Batteries have their own issues. For now grid tie is the best bet

[Xithras]

25. Batteries are a horrible idea.

They consume huge amounts of power to create, last only a few years with daily use, and are essentially toxic waste when they must be replaced. A better idea is a convertible fuel cell. During the day they draw in power to convert water to hydrogen and oxygen, which are stored in a tank. At night, the process reverses and they convert hydrogen and oxygen into power, with water as a byproduct. This method would require more power during the day, but is more environmentally friendly over the long term.

[stuball111]

40. Hmm.. didn;t know that, thanks....

I guess I am old school. But you catch the drift. even a converter to step the power down to 12V in each house off the grid would save power. I have heard people do that.

[tinrobot]

11. That's less than the surface area of a few major cities.

Pick the sunny cities, put solar on all the rooftops and over open spaces such as parking lots and you'd have more than enough power.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

18. Not even close to correct

There are distribution issues to consider and that is for starters. Built up areas in the NE are pretty much forced to maintain power plants. Density is way too high for solar or wind to support, especially in the winter

[Xicano]

52. Problems with lack of solar or wind? Live near a coastline?

Here's another alternative solution. We have an awful lot of coastline in our country that could produce cheap and plentiful energy.

[dysfunctional press]

12. how does the power get from the little square in the southwest u.s. to new york city?

that's quite a long way to transmit it from the source, isn't it?

[tinrobot]

14. Divide the little square up.

Put panels all over the country. On every roof, if needed.

[dysfunctional press]

16. what about alaska?

solar won't work everywhere.

what about the short winter days in the northern lattitudes?

[Fumesucker]

24. You use the grid to distribute the inequities..

There is no such thing as a perfect solution, all engineering is about compromise.

The grid will remain necessary but the function will change from distributing centrally generated power to gathering distributed generating power and then redistributing it.

Wind farms, oil, nukes, natural gas and even coal won't go away completely but will be used to help balance the generating capacity versus the load.

Even electric cars will help balance the loads, charge them when excess electricity is available, use that electricity when it is not needed for transportation and other generating capacity falls short of the short term demand.

[dysfunctional press]

29. there are limitations as to how far electricity can be transmitted.

solar would never b e able to supply all of the power needs of the planet, despite the claims made in the op.

[Fumesucker]

31. Room temperature superconductors..

Will go a long way toward making long distance transmission much more practical.

Superconductivity is close to the zeroth zero in physics.

[dysfunctional press]

33. how many of them are there?

reality can be a HUGH stumbling block.

[Fumesucker]

38. Science marches on..

Just as solar cell technology is developing so are superconductors.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080709144157.htm

Room Temperature Superconductivity: One Step Closer To Holy Grail Of Physics


ScienceDaily (July 10, 2008) — Scientists at the University of Cambridge have for the first time identified a key component to unravelling the mystery of room temperature superconductivity, according to a paper published in the journal Nature.

The quest for room temperature superconductivity has gripped physics researchers since they saw the possibility more than two decades ago. Materials that could potentially transport electricity with zero loss (resistance) at room temperature hold vast potential; some of the possible applications include a magnetically levitated superfast train, efficient magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), lossless power generators, transformers, and transmission lines, powerful supercomputers, etc.

<snip>

Dr Suchitra E. Sebastian, lead author of the study, commented, "An experimental difficulty in the past has been accessing the underlying microscopics of the system once it begins to superconduct. Superconductivity throws a manner of 'veil' over the system, hiding its inner workings from experimental probes. A major advance has been our use of high magnetic fields, which punch holes through the superconducting shroud, known as vortices - regions where superconductivity is destroyed, through which the underlying electronic structure can be probed.

"We have successfully unearthed for the first time in a high temperature superconductor the location in the electronic structure where 'pockets' of doped hole carriers aggregate. Our experiments have thus made an important advance toward understanding how superconducting pairs form out of these hole pockets."

<snip>

More at the link..

[dysfunctional press]

43. so in other words- "none".

next.

[Tesha]

54. Not so much as there used to be; Google HVDC.

That goes thousands of miles with acceptable losses.

Tesha

[druidity33]

45. Alaska gets geothermal

and could do multiple micro-hydro plants along its abundant waterways. I think you can even extract energy from ice... now, where did i read that? There's plenty of wind out there too. You're right that solar is not great for everywhere, but everywhere has a source of energy that could be tapped.

:shrug:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

20. Still not enough in the NE

[ProgressiveProfessor]

17. You have hit on one of the major issues...distribution costs and losses.

NYC is in a sucky place for energy efficiency. It really needs to devolve to something more sustainable. Its not just the number of people, its where they live.

[dysfunctional press]

19. until/unless the oceans rise enough to inundate it- nyc isn't going anywhere.

and neither is the population.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

21. And their costs will continue to skyrocket while they force the rest of us to accept their garbage

and pollution. I for one would be glad to see the NE corridor bear its own true costs. It would devolve even faster.

[dysfunctional press]

23. pretty much.

[berni_mccoy]

27. There are many ways besides power lines. The energy can be stored and then

transported. We transport Gas all over this country. We can certainly transport Fuel Cells and other forms of stored energy.

[dysfunctional press]

30. you might want to consult with some physicists on that one.

if it were doable on the scale needed- it would be done.

[berni_mccoy]

32. LOL. The reason it's not done is because we are humping Big Oil.

If we put a fraction of the money spent on big oil into research and development of new energies, we wouldn't be in the mess we are.

Consider how much energy goes into putting a gallon of gas into your car. It doesn't come out of the ground everywhere.

[dysfunctional press]

34. wanna bet?

the physics just isn't there. if it could be done- it WOULD.
there are plenty of countries in the world who realize much more than americans seem to, that there is a world of hurt coming down the pike. if they could overcome the physics of reality- they'd gladly replace oil.

[berni_mccoy]

36. Wow, you really aren't that informed on the subject, are you? Check out these Solar Energy Plants

Biggest advances have been in Solar Thermal to Mechanical conversion via Stirling engines. These are the largest and most efficient plants that are capable of supporting peak loads:

http://www.stirlingenergy.com/projects.htm

Pilot Project in Arizon: 1.5 MW Plant
Mojave Dessert in CA, Solar-1: 850 MW
San Diego, CA, Solar-2: 900 MW

These plants can function in non-dessert conditions as well.

Keep in mind, these two plants will power 1/4 of California. 6 more plants would cover about 10% of the population of the U.S.


From last year:

13 of the world's largest photovaltaic plants:

http://ecoworldly.com/2008/03/05/worlds-7-biggest-solar-energy-plants/

Just from the USA:
Deming, New Mexico 300 MW
Gila Bend, Arizona, USA, 280 MW
Fresno, CA, 80 MW
Las Vegas, NV 14.2 MW

[billyclem]

41. These, like the others, are addressing production not storage

Storage of the production from solar and wind is a massive engineering problem that is just now starting to be considered. Berni, in your previous posts you seem to have lightly written off storage as a minor consideration that is easily solved, I wish that were so.

To date the only feasible method for storage of non-demand production methods is the pumping of water to reservoirs to produce hydro power during non production periods. In areas of suitable geography this works. For other areas, other methods must be found.

I suppose each end user could be tasked with providing their own small fuel cells rather than massive, horribly expensive municipal fuel cell banks. Spreading the cost to the user does have a certain appeal.

Anyone have ideas about mass storage for supply during non production hours?

:think:

BTW, did no one notice the tiny little rectangle in the Pacific Northwest?

[berni_mccoy]

50. Hydrogen?

[Posteritatis]

55. Y'mean the stuff that costs more to make than you get out of burning it? (nt)

[Statistical]

61. round trip efficiency is 50%

So 1 watts electricity in ---> electrolyze H2 ---> store H2 ---> H2 fuel cell ---> 1 watt out.

It can be done but you just doubled the cost of generation.

[dysfunctional press]

44. what does any of this have to do with storage or transmission over LONG distances?

try again...:hi:

[billyclem]

48. Because all that has been mentioned is production

It seems that storage has been mostly glossed over or not considered. As I said, it is a massive engineering problem that needs to be solved. Others have brought up the considerations with transmission.

To only look at how much power can be produced by solar means without considering what will be done in the off hours is leaving yourself blind to much of the problem. Didn't you point out the physics problems in the first place? I don't understand how my questioning the use of Sterling engines as not addressing storage would not have something to do with storage.:shrug:

End use fuel cells, just throwing something out to see if it draws a dogpile.

[billyclem]

56. Oops, damm eye

Please ignore. I have been looking at the world with one eye for a week and I was confused about the thread link lines. I will now go into the corner and eat worms.

:+

[dysfunctional press]

63. production is only half the equation.

the premise of this thread is that solar power alone could power the world.

it can't.

maybe someday- but they've been saying that for a long time.

[berni_mccoy]

53. It has everything to do with it? Ever hear of Hydrogen?

It takes roughly 45kw to produce 1 kg of Hydrogen using current technologies.
It takes roughly 12kw to produce 1 gallon of gas.

Hydrogen Fuel Cells are roughly 3 times more efficient than gas powered machines. I'd say we are nearly there on equal energy conversion for vehicles. You have distributed generators running on HFC and you have your distribution as well.

[dysfunctional press]

62. it's been "nearly there" as llong as i can remember.

reality sure is a bitch, ain't it...?

:rofl: :rofl:

[Statistical]

67. Of course you ignore 50% efficiency round trip

To replace store 1000MWH of electricity each day for the night cycle would require 2000MWH of power.

You have just doubled the cost per kwh of electricity.

[earth mom]

26. So are DUers gonna jump on Obama & Congress about this or not?

I'm thinking NOT, since most DUers have sold out on Health Care. :puke:

[berni_mccoy]

28. You Slander most of DU with that statement. DUers have NOT given up on the Health Care Issue.

[TheKentuckian]

49. By sold out she means accepting the reality of single digit Senate and soft popular support

for Single Payer but still wanting to do something about the problem despite those harsh realities. Sold out just means not on the all or nothing (aka nothing) bandwagon. Hell, most of us support Single Payer and will continue to support it but have the horsesense to know it ain't happening now or even soon.

Most of the outcry is not ignorance of the realities but a fear that doing something will delay what they want to see instituted. They believe that some groundswell is just over the horizon and don't want to lose the urgency. Others see a need to move a needle that has been stuck in the same grove through all the ups and downs of the better part of a century and are doing what they can to make sure as possible that the move is forward. Hell, we've been stuck on this for so long that I'm increasingly of a mind that even a debacle is preferable to what we have now. A mess would require real and bold solutions and none of them would lead us back to this place. Maybe the current system is near a crash but if not then the all or nothing sentiment is willful failure and dereliction of duty. I'll place my bets on taking action rather than waiting for a pass that may never come or one that will emerge so slowly that the majority of the people and the poor disproportionally take the hits.

[earth mom]

64. Wake up. There are many DUers who have sold out and spend their time trying to convince others that

Obama's "got this" which in reality is meaningless talk about "reform" AKA a plan to give even MORE money to the evil thieving Health Care Insurance industry.

How about drawing a line in the sand about Universal/Single Payer for everyone and not giving an inch?

Obama has sold out and so has DU.

[MilesColtrane]

42. Now if someone would just invent a solar powered tank and fighter/bomber, we'd be gold!

USA! USA!

[Xicano]

46. Thanks for posting this berni_mccoy

K&R +1

[Joe Fields]

47. thanks... this needs to be out there for more people to see.

[Fearless]

58. You could also put them out to sea

Float them out along the equator or else in areas of low weather hazard and connect them flexibly to the bedrock and run cable back to land similar (albeit slightly more insulated) than telephone and internet lines. Not only could you take sunlight directly but you could also raise up a few towers and absorb it reflecting off the water itself.


The only setback right now is salt in sea water and damage to solar cells. That is fixable.

[berni_mccoy]

59. Or, you could go the Solar-Stirling route:

http://www.stirlingenergy.com/technology.htm

[Fearless]

60. Or both.

[Fumesucker]

66. If you are going to sea anyway you might as well use Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion

OTEC for short.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_thermal_energy_conversion

Ocean thermal energy conversion (OTEC or OTE<1>) is a method for generating electricity which uses the temperature difference that exists between deep and shallow waters to run a heat engine. As with any heat engine, the greatest efficiency and power is produced with the largest temperature difference. This temperature difference generally increases with decreasing latitude, i.e. near the equator, in the tropics. Historically, the main technical challenge of OTEC was to generate significant amounts of power, efficiently, from this very small temperature ratio. Changes in efficiency of heat exchange in modern designs allow performance approaching the theoretical maximum efficiency.

The Earth's oceans are continually heated by the sun and cover nearly 70% of the Earth's surface; this temperature difference contains a vast amount of solar energy which can potentially be harnessed for human use. If this extraction could be made cost effective on a large scale, it could provide a source of renewable energy needed to deal with energy shortages, and other energy problems. The total energy available is one or two orders of magnitude higher than other ocean energy options such as wave power, but the small magnitude of the temperature difference makes energy extraction comparatively difficult and expensive, due to low thermal efficiency. Earlier OTEC systems had an overall efficiency of only 1 to 3% (the theoretical maximum efficiency lies between 6 and 7%<2>). Current designs under review will operate closer to the theoretical maximum efficiency. The energy carrier, seawater, is free, although it has an access cost associated with the pumping materials and pump energy costs. Although an OTEC plant operates at a low overall efficiency, it can be configured to operate continuously as a Base load power generation system. Any thorough Cost-benefit analysis should include these factors to provide an accurate assessment of performance, efficiency, operational and construction costs and returns on investment.
View of a land based OTEC facility at Keahole Point on the Kona coast of Hawaii (United States Department of Energy)

The concept of a heat engine is very common in thermodynamics engineering, and much of the energy used by humans passes through a heat engine. A heat engine is a thermodynamic device placed between a high temperature reservoir and a low temperature reservoir. As heat flows from one to the other, the engine converts some of the heat energy to work energy. This principle is used in steam turbines and internal combustion engines, while refrigerators reverse the direction of flow of both the heat and work energy. Rather than using heat energy from the burning of fuel, OTEC power draws on temperature differences caused by the sun's warming of the ocean surface.

The only heat cycle suitable for OTEC, is the Rankine cycle, using a low-pressure turbine. Systems may be either closed-cycle or open-cycle. Closed-cycle engines use working fluids that are typically thought of as refrigerants such as ammonia or R-134a. Open-cycle engines use the water heat source as the working fluid.

[Fearless]

73. Could do that too.

[Lorien]

70. Or on the roof of existing structures

homes, malls, warehouses-you name it.

[Fearless]

74. Absolutely.

[votingupstart]

65. interesting k&r nt

[ProudDad]

68. Power Down!

The only way to sustainability...

www.transitionus.org

[Deja Q]

71. K&R --- YES WE CAN

[Jkid]

72. What are we wating for?

...oh wait, the coal companies. The instant any solar project is done, they'll be out of business. So they will fight tooth and nail to prevent this from happening.

[patrice]

75. I'd love a solar roof!! Let's DO this Thing!!!

[patrice]

76. We are ready to build Community Resources.