What if being gay IS a "lifestyle choice?"

[subcomhd]

does that then mean it's okay for the majority to decide what choices a minority makes? I bring this up because I heard a RWer on the radio this morning say "it's a choice" and found myself yelling at the radio "so what if it is?, it's none of your fucking concern."

edited to say - I do NOT think it is a choice. My only point is that even if it was, it doesn't mean it's ok to make second class citizens out of anyone PERIOD. the peckerwood on the radio thought that made his bigotry okay.

[mindfulNJ]

1. It isn't a choice

but yeah... I agree.

[roguevalley]

83. I believe it is an attempt by people to get around a scripture and

preserve the infallability of God and their world view.

God is perfect.
God created man in his own image.
Some men/women are gay.
God is perfect.
WTF!?!
Hmmm... *snap*! Gay is a choice.
God remains perfect.
Man is evil so this fits.
Gay is a choice.

Simple. If they didn't do this then God is not only fallable, but inscruptable. God would be wrong in their eyes and they can't find fault, so they lied this into existence out of fear of offending God.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. But it's not a choice.

You don't choose your hair color, or your eye color...or your sexuality.

This is something you're born with.

[subcomhd]

6. I totally agree,

but my question is do these people think that by saying its a choice it makes it ok to deny basic human rights?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

19. Ah, I see!

I misunderstood, sorry!

Of course it's not OK to deny basic human rights.

They're using their crazy ideas in a vain attempt to deny things that they have no business denying.

They're fucked up!

:hi:

[subcomhd]

3. unrec? are you fucking joking?

so who's the unrecing homophobe?

[TommyO]

5. Sadly there are homophobic pieces of crap here at DU.

[Orsino]

36. I was tempted to unrec it, too...

...but subsequent discussion makes it clear we are not perpetuating the "choice" meme, after all.

[xultar]

10. Unrec only means that they don't want it on the greatest. Why get all bent out?

[subcomhd]

18. Your sig. line cracks me up, especially after your message. nt

[polmaven]

57. I'm sure the unrec

was done by someone who was not able to figure out that your question was a "what if" not a "so what".

[TommyO]

4. Religion is a choice

Yet the same ones that rail against gay people, claiming it's a choice, enjoy the legal protection of their choices.

There's just one phrase to describe them: God-damned, fucking hypocrites.

[Echo In Light]

8. +1

[subcomhd]

17. Oh that has been noted for future reference, thanks. nt

[unblock]

38. religion, yes; religiosity, perhaps not so much.

apparently they've done studies on separated identical twins and found a strong genetic component to religiosity. that is, if one twin is very religious, the other is quite likely to be, although WHICH religion is not predicted at all.

so it may be that religiosity is no more a choice, or not much more of a choice, than sexual orientation.

http://books.google.com/books?id=LBv_K9Q0Z6gC&pg=PA181&lpg=PA181&dq=religiosity+twins&source=bl&ots=-Ffm_nIIP9&sig=brBetDVTbuSLxyZZj8j6mT88f4k&hl=en&ei=X6W3So3ZLIqulAfbopSFDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#v=onepage&q=religiosity%20twins&f=false

[xchrom]

7. sigh. nt

[xultar]

9. I tell ya, I'm straight. But in the light of their being such a lack of men, I thought about it.

And if it is a choice...it is my choice.

If I choose to be a Lesbian then I'm a Lesbian. If I choose to be Bi, then I'm Bi.

It's my fucking business.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

27. haha...

I've always said if it weren't for the sex I'd chose to be a lesbian.

[NYC_SKP]

11. In my political view, it doesn't matter if it's a choice or not. Marraige, civil rights, employment

...all must be available equally regardless of sexual orientation.

:patriot:

[subcomhd]

21. I think it is genetics but yes, that's what I believe

human rights for ALL humans.

[sui generis]

12. I absolutely agree -

I should be free to make my own choices about what I do with my pink parts, about who I live with and how I live, period, and it shouldn't matter to anyone not personally involved in those choices, regardless of whether I view myself as gay or straight or omni.

Otherwise we would have to make it illegal to pretend to be gay if you're not "really" gay, and how stupid would that be?

[ismnotwasm]

13. Problem is

The way those disgustingly evil, straight from their own hell assholes like to categorize, as well as dehumanize Gays. Words drive culture. I understand your point, but I wouldn't bother to go there with any right-wing sick fuck. They're not known for their debating skills or attention to the truth or their loving concern for the human condition.


It's not a choice.

[subcomhd]

30. yeh, I need to stop listening to AM radio, especially in the morning

gets my blood pressure up for the whole day.

[ismnotwasm]

40. I don't know how you stand it

I have a friend who does that so I get the occasional update, but man I couldn't put up with it. I'd want to kill something

[subcomhd]

58. old classic truck w/original AM-only radio. Out here in the sticks

I only get RWers and sportstalk. As a Cowboys fan I thought sports would be worse this morning.

Jeez I didn't realize how redneckish that all comes across until I saw it written down. LOL

[Gman2]

14. I believe it is a lifestyle choice, that starts about two.

Whether or not it is birthed, means nothing.

[Mari333]

22. you have to be kidding

and please, what facts do you base this on.

oh, and for the OP, its not a choice. good lord.

[Gman2]

45. Defacto, born. Moot point. They should be protected.

[Gman2]

49. This has been the belief of psychologists for long time..

Maybe you have no or little control over the final choice, but it is still you choosing. That is why I think it is moot.

[Mari333]

85. your opinion until you show me data

[Fire1]

80. The OP DIDN'T SAY IT WAS A FUCKIN CHOICE!! READ

BEFORE YOU POST!! Good Lord is right!

[Mari333]

84. omg take the meds

[cwydro]

32. It is NOT a choice.

Who the hell is making "lifestyle choices" at 2???

[Gman2]

47. You are developing your preference. It is you doing it. Regardless two.

[cwydro]

48. Just like I was developing my preference for green eyes

or the fact that I am female?

Nonsense!

[Gman2]

50. Who was doing it for you?

[cwydro]

51. Are you for real?

My being female was not a "preference" I chose at 2. Nor was my eye color.

[Gman2]

56. Nor is it germain to any point whatsoevewr, cept you say so.

[cwydro]

62. You have no idea what you are talking about.

That much is clear.

[Gman2]

78. The truth iis

that many THINK that making it inborn makes you a minority group. I say, you get equal protection either way. So, I am not driven to proclaim it either way. But MOST pro's think that it is about the age of two. I am not the bad guy here. I just dont think that it is necessarily congenital.

[BuelahWitch]

73. Doesn't making choices involve some sort of rational thinking?

What two year old is capable of rational thinking?
Edited to add: while a two year old may be attracted to one sex or the other, it's not a "choice." It's just there.

[cwydro]

82. I wanted to be a cowboy at age 2.

So why the hell am I working with airplanes instead of horses?

I also specifically chose blonde hair, damnit!

[donheld]

88. Total bullshit

It's not a choice at 2,3 or any other fucking age!

[ehrnst]

15. Religion is a lifestyle choice, and it's protected under the law. (nt)

[havocmom]

53. BINGO

But some try to legislate biology. :eyes: What a world.

[TxRider]

16. It doesn't really matter

Choice, lifestyle, genetic predisposition, fact of nature...

Are irrelevant.

Unless something is unlawful it is free to be.

[SeattleGirl]

20. There is no "what if" about it. It is NOT a choice.

I understand your anger, but that person you heard on the radio was lying, flat out.

[subcomhd]

26. lying or just piss-ignorant but

a bigot either way.

[ourbluenation]

23. The job of the senate is to protect the minority from the oppression of the majority. It's

part of the reason why there are two senators from each state no matter how large or small the state is. In that vein, if a majority thinks being gay is some sin against humanity that should be illegal, the senate is there to keep that crazytown stuff in check. Looking back in history you can see when this has happened. Interracial marriage is a good example. Most americans were against it at the time it became legal, thanks to the senate. The right wing radio machine can say what they want, it's a free country, but thankfully they don't make the laws. When they were shouting to amend the constitution to define marriage between a man and a woman, there was almost no support for it in the senate on both sides of the isle.

Having said all that, you are absolutely correct, it's literally and legally none of their concern. But it can be maddening to listen to their crap. :banghead:

[kelly1mm]

70. The Senate did not make interracial marriage legal, the Supreme Court

did. (Technically, they found that laws prohibiting interracial marriage unconstitutional - see Loving v. Virginia). The Senate does have at least two aspects that support your overall point, but at least one of them is not exactly on point. The Senate's makeup of 2 Senators per state was set up to protect the small states from the gig states, not really the minority of people from the majority. This was even more true in the original constitution when Senators were sent to the Senate by the state legislatures themselves rather than by direct election by the voters. The second aspect is the filibuster rule, saying in general you need 60 votes (rather than 50+1) to end debate on an issue and allow it to come to a vote. This also tends to protect the minority. However this is just a rule of the Senate an can be changed at any time and is probably unconstitutional anyway. The only reason it has not been looked at by the SC is that nobody (no Senator) has challenged the rule so there has been no "case or controversy" for the SC to take a look at. Sometimes this is threatened and is known as the "nuclear option".

[CJCRANE]

24. It's a choice in the same way you choose the color of your skin.

It's better to just accept it rather than trying to change it.

[ourbluenation]

25. The job of the senate is to protect the minority from the oppression of the majority. It's

part of the reason why there are two senators from each state no matter how large or small the state is. In that vein, if a majority thinks being gay is some sin against humanity that should be illegal, the senate is there to keep that crazytown stuff in check. Looking back in history you can see when this has happened. Interracial marriage is a good example. Most americans were against it at the time it became legal, thanks to the senate. The right wing radio machine can say what they want, it's a free country, but thankfully they don't make the laws. When they were shouting to amend the constitution to define marriage between a man and a woman, there was almost no support for it in the senate on both sides of the isle.

Having said all that, you are absolutely correct, it's literally and legally none of their concern. But it can be maddening to listen to their crap. :banghead:

[Wounded Bear]

28. The question is irrelevant to me...

It-the "lifestyle"-probably is a choice for some. Most people grow into their natural sexuality, which is not as black and white as most RWers like to assume. Frankly, most heteros have dealt with "homosexual" feelings or inclinations at one point or another during their lifetimes. Generally, they don't have to deal with the same pressures that GLBT people suffer under.

If it is a choice for you, go for it. As you said, not my business. I have no desire to penalize anyone for "choices" that don't affect me. It's not really about "gay rights." It's about civil rights.

[blondeatlast]

29. It isn't--but your point is well-taken. It matters not at all. nt

[VMI Dem]

31. K and Unrec.

[guitar man]

33. so what if it is

We're supposed to be living in a free country. funny thing is the people who run around hollering the loudest about "freedom" are the hypocritical jackasses that want freedom only for themselves. "Freedom" to them means freedom to think, act and live like them because everybody knows they are the only true americans :sarcasm:

edit to add:

and another thing...heterosexual marriage is a "lifestyle choice". nobody is holding a gun to anybody's head forcing them to get married

[Ian David]

34. At least you're not an astronaut

Astronauts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK-30442RII

[subcomhd]

44. Ian, problem with the vid. brief description? nt

[CJCRANE]

35. The RW argument that it's a choice implies that we're all bisexual.

So the guy who made that comment is admitting that he's bisexual.

On edit: If you ever meet one of these idiots and want to shut them up just ask him if he "chose" to be straight.

[subcomhd]

41. You make two good points

the first i haven't thought of (the bi thing.)

The second one I have used before. I've asked these people at what age they made the decision to be straight.

[Deja Q]

55. Per the Kinsey scale, that is true. But why would most repubs be for the kinsey scale?

[sui generis]

37. And that's exactly the reason - he wants his "choice" about what's

right for you to mean more than your own choice.

It is that clear folks. It DOES NOT matter if you are gay or straight - you should be able to make your own choices. Until you can find a way to put it on your driver's license next to your eye color, you don't have a weapon in the choice war, other than the validity of the adult choices you make in your adult life for your adult self.

[imdjh]

39. Applause! I have been trying to take away that issue for years.

I'd love to have the podium to say:


I'll stipulate to it. Being gay is a lifestyle choice, Reverend Simplemeyer, so now what is your constitutional argument for depriving me of equal rights?

[Tim01]

42. How dare you say that out loud you fucking prick! j/k

I actually think you have a very good point.

Stop trading blows with the right about whether it is a choice or not.

Ok, so it's a choice, fine.

On what grounds should they be denied rights? So a guy chooses to marry a guy,so the fuck what. It isn't hurting anybody at all. It is hurting less people than drinkers, smokers, and some religious people. Being gay actually has no negative effect on anything at all. So, let them get married since they CHOOSE to be gay and it doesn't hurt anybody at all.

[MemeSmith]

43. If anyone tells you that it's a choice...

If anyone tells you that it's a choice, here's your bullet:

"Of course it's a choice, a choice that you yourself made, when you chose to only act out your heterosexual lifestyle choice, even though you are attracted to both sexes."

When they explode, "I'm not!!!" You get really close, look them dead in the eyes, drop your voice ten octaves and growl:

"That's right. You're not. And neither are they."

[loudsue]

46. If people shouldn't be free to choose, then being racist should be outlawed, as well.

And being a homophobe, sexist, etc.

If the wingnut's argument is that homosexuality is a "choice" and is supposedly wrecking our morality, then being a racist, sexist, and homophobe is certainly a "choice" and is more than wrecking our morality and country. Being "conservative" is a choice that bankrupted our country.

I wonder what kind of can of worms that whole thing would open up, but I get the point.

[apnu]

52. Choice or not... I'll quote Henry Rollins "Life's short -- get off as much as possible."

To me, choice (or not) is meaningless in a discussion of homosexuality. If you're happy, and everybody consents, then fuck whatever you want. Love whatever you want. Its all good, IMO.

[Deja Q]

54. Attraction is not a choice. What people do with their attraction is.

I have attractions to both men and women. If I choose to act on those feelings is my business and I don't tell complete strangers in checkout counter queues what I do because it's none of their business and to say it would invite a response.

[lies and propaganda]

59. ITS NOT AND DONT PERPETUATE IT

Not even worth discussing because its NOT.

[cwydro]

66. Thank you.

Check upthread for another poster who believes it is a choice that we make around age 2!

[gratuitous]

60. Here's part of the "reasoning"

If it's a "choice," then for someone "choosing" a "sinful" lifestyle, the forces of repression feel perfectly justified in denying people the right to full participation. For the most part, I'm talking about a congregation, but for a lot of repressive folks, the quantum leap from congregation to the larger society is sub-atomically short, just like a real quantum leap.

If sexual orientation is a "choice," then it can be "unchosen," or "unlearned" or "overcome." I can't tell you how many heart-breaking stories I've heard from men and women who went to extraordinary and even heroic measures to change their sexual orientation. Real medieval stuff, involving "therapies" and devices that we will probably call torture less than a century from now. Some people's stories have had to be told posthumously, as they died in the attempt to overcome their "choice."

As long as it's a choice, like driving a Lexus or a BMW, there will those who treat sexual orientation as another consumerist commodity. And they will inevitably persuade someone or many someones that they must make a different choice, with the consequences so dire that death is preferable to making the wrong choice. They will carefully disguise their fear and bigotry in softer, sweeter terms, because the unvarnished hatred is just too awful to be trusted out on its own. So it will be dressed up in religious garb or terms of community, caring and love, but it is the antithesis of that.

[subcomhd]

64. very well put, but you know what?

they already have their next argument ready for the day that the gay gene is found. "It's still a sin, and just because they are born with the temptation, it's still a sin to act on it."

So they are gonna be pricks either way.

[subcomhd]

65. Mods, why is this in flames?

I don't really see a whole bunch of disagreement here.

[BuelahWitch]

72. Flames only means you got alot of replies

It's a good thing :hi:

[subcomhd]

81. You know what? I always thought it meant it was controversial.

BTW, I don't know why, but I really dig your handle. Are you really a witch?

[gratuitous]

67. Of course they're going to be repressive either way

That's what repressive types do. But that's part of the rationale behind the "choice" argument. If the "choice" argument is hokum, they'll simply concoct another argument to justify their bigotry. It's tedious, tiresome crap, but it has to be met every stinking time because the alternative is "They don't have an answer!" in the same triumphant tone you'll hear from a five-year-old who doesn't know what he's talking about.

Off topic, but a thread gets a "flaming hot" avatar when it goes over 20 responses, not necessarily because there's a flame war going on in it.

[subcomhd]

68. yep, and thanks for the explanation of the flame. nt

[Better Today]

61. Then this is the supposed to be the country of free choice! Period!

Choice or not choice shouldn't matter. If they are not hurting others, they should have the same rights and privileges as everyone else "choosing" to be heterosexual.

[rucky]

63. You can't even entertain that premise.

You'll immediately lose control over what should be a simple, straightforward debate.

[LAGC]

69. Oh, but its not a "lifestyle", its a "deathstyle."

According to my Baptist preacher ex-boss...

Don't know how I put up with him for two long years at my old job. He never flat out said "AIDS kills fags dead!" but I'm sure the thought crossed his mind often...

[TorchTheWitch]

71. it's no more a choice than being straight is a choice

[Proud Liberal Dem]

74. IMHO

BEING gay or lesbian is NOT a choice. Nobody IMHO can choose their fundamental sexual orientation. People CAN *choose* what kind of sexual behavior they engage in it with and such behavior, provided that it is entered into consensually, should be as fully protected as any other private behavior that anybody else engages in IMHO.

[AngryAmish]

75. All the time the majority makes decisions about what a minority does

That is the system of laws we have. (insert standard language about not comparing dog fighting or gambling to being gay here so I don't get flamed)

Anyway, gambling is the epitome of a lifestyle choice. We make it illegal because we (collectively) think it is a bad choice to do and it promotes other bad things. Or not, depending on the jurisdiction. Likewise, we as a society we have made decisions that dogfighting is a bad thing and so we have outlawed that too.

The deal is we try not to make intrinsic things about our nature illegal since people can't help that. When the constitution was written we felt that one's religion was immutable and other rights were either 1) given by god or 2) were inherent in the nature of being a person.

Long story short - I disagree with you that we cannot impose out collective will on disfavored minorities because they do an activity we disagree with.

[gatorboy]

76. It's not a choice, so why give them the ammo?

[kctim]

77. Avoid the "choice" debate

because you are the losing end of it.
Social Security, Medicare, single-payer etc..., are all choices the majority makes for the minority and they are all choices the minority are forced to comply with.
Being born gay is hard enough, don't need hypocritical positions to make it even harder.

[JitterbugPerfume]

79. It is not a choice

but if it were a choice , it is nobodys business but the couple involved . I am so damn sick of the morality police

[Confusious]

86. We do it all the time

Smoking taxes, soda taxes.

That being said, it isn't a choice, they are born that way, just I am born the way I am.

[eridani]

87. There is NO SUCH THING as a "gay lifestyle"

We have LIVES--okay?