Verbal Violence. That's what's going on. When we talked about George Bush

[peacetalksforall]

during his Presidency it was mostly comment on his policies and his mistakes and the duplicity of his statements and reasons. He was lying to us. We were not lying about him. We did not organize hate campaigns.

Those who wrote down his gaffes did it for reference or posterity.

Those who were against policies marched or wrote in opposition to his policies. No one went to the extreme these people have for generating hate.

Democrats did not plan, organize, orchestrate, feed hate campaigns against George Bush in any parallel way.

The followers who are performing excellently for the planners are utterly out of touch with reality and no one is stepping up to control it. The planners must have said they will go all the way with the lies and it is working. This is not a grass root operation.

Someone came up with the idea to have them change our concern about the Constitution to their concern. We, the Democrats, are threatening their Constitution? Rovian reality par excellence. They don't know the truth.

Their hateful rants at the government is really a hateful rant at Democrats, because no one can be so absent from reality that they would hate the traffic lights that keep them alive, the right to have a jury hear their case.

Verbal Violence is pretty serious stuff the way they are handling it. Violence equals terrorism.

Any remaining members of the Republican Party who have influence over them, Rove and planners, should step up to the plate.

Obviously, the planners told each other that they didn't want to lose anyone from their existing voting block who make up these followers of the Fox-Limbaugh Family and decided that they would put them to work spreading hate. The worst kind of hate - lying hate.

It is Verbal Violence. It is not free speech because it is fostering and screaming lies with the intent to spread hate among their own voting block. They are poor dependent people because reality has been stolen from them. Liars taught their followers.

It is a socio-political phenomena that is extremely dangerous because of the absence of truth.

Watch it as history in the making, but try to figure out what to do to counter it. Any Republicans of sound mind are needed immediately. The enemy is within.

[elleng]

1. Right; what unhappy Dems and others did vis a vis bush CANNOT be compared to what anti-Obamas do,

and no one should accept any alleged analogy.

[TxRider]

12. Your kidding right?

Burning effigies of Bush, carrying effigies of hanging Bush, and other things that have been at protests aren't comparable?

[Horse with no Name]

20. I think that was mostly done overseas by the hordes of Bush fans

thanking him for spreading Democracy throughout the world.

[butterfly77]

31. The difference in this situation is that...

Pres Obama's enemies don't even consider him to be a man,they can't even look at him with thinking of his color first.

In every situation it always comes back somehow to his color,even when they go after him it is made up shit,lies. When they try to attack him on and issue it seems to always end up relating to race or some black person or organization.

Oh,and also because of his color that automatically means he has to be a terrorist or something different from the rest of the country. Maybe like Sarah Palin says he is not a REAL AMERICAN because real americans come in certain skin tones,with the exception or ORANGE..

[DCKit]

34. Yeah, Boner's doing wonders for Oompa Loompa rights and recognition.

Too bad he's not working as hard for his own constituents.

[IDFbunny]

2. Death of a President

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/death_of_a_president/

At the time, and still do, think this movie was awful. This movie could not be made now, with Obama as the subject, without a huge and justified uproar. This was a fantasy assassination of W. Many people still wish him dead. I've read of Wicca n vigils praying for his death.

I believe in unfettered free speech, which include hate and lies but not specific threats and explicit incitement to violence. Civil courts can award damages for the harm done by lies, that is libel and slander. "Verbal violence" and "hate speech" are too vague and therefore protected by Free Speech. I'd hate to see the politically correct police enforcing speech codes.

[foxfeet]

3. Link on the Wiccan vigils, please?

Or some other credible source?

[IDFbunny]

6. Lost in the blogosphere from about 7-8 year ago.

If it makes you feel better, I'm going from memory, it probably didn't have much of a following as most Wiccans would have thought a prayer FOR cancer (I do remember that detail) was too ghastly and reprehensible.

The point is, that many people wished Bush dead and openly hoped something violent would happen.

[foxfeet]

8. Thanks-- I didn't necessarily doubt your assertion.

It just seems like a very un-Wiccan thing to do for a variety of reasons, not limited to the ethical issues. Bush did openly state that he didn't consider Wicca to be a legitimate religion, which pissed off lots of people. I never say never. . .

[IDFbunny]

9. I had take my admission out.

Tin foil hat and all. Looking at that fantasy assassination movie review I posted I noticed it did very poorly and was widely panned. I actually rented it myself (luv netflix) and couldn't finish it, then rated it for one star on Netflix. It was a faux documentary examining the assination after the fact. It was an amateur production and the quality wasn't that good.

[peacetalksforall]

4. I didn't have the court room in mind when I wrote this. I believe ir should be named

for the work needed to end it before it goes to court or ends up in some action that brings it to court.

Recognition of what it is. Analysis of what it is. Action against it by exposing what it is. An attempt to appeal to reasonable people to get them to use their influence over these lab rats.

If the RI GOPer could resign because of the unprecedented action of a U.S. Congressman shouting out You Lie! in a live session-speech, then others can help.

I didn't get to look at what is at your link yet. But, to repeat, I'm not talking courtroom, I'm talking preventive action. Labeling does not have to be legal?

[RaleighNCDUer]

7. You didn't watch it, did you.

It was NOT a 'fantasy assassination of W'. It used the fictional assassination of W to explore several themes, and actually W came off looking pretty good in the film. It in no way tried to justify shooting him, or encourage anyone to make the fiction real.

BTW, no practicing Wiccan would DARE pray for anyone's death - tenfold returns, and all that.

OTOH, 'christians' like Pat Robertson pray for Obama's death all the time.

[IDFbunny]

11. I did watch

about a third of it before I ejected it. Gave it one star on Netflix. I might have watched the whole thing except my mother was there and was a little disturbed at the whole idea of it.

It was justified because it would be a better world without him. Wiccans, like Christians, Jews, and Muslims, are imperfect and don't always follow their own doctrine.

[TxRider]

14. How about burning effigies, hanging effigies... Are those not hateful?

[Horse with no Name]

22. We really need to see some legitimate links for this

you keep protesting it over and over yet have shown no proof that it ever happened in THIS country.

[TxRider]

26. You can't be serious...

But ok... You asked..

March 18, 2007 anti-war rally in San Francisco





Obama campaign rally, Denver, October 26, 2008



April 10, 2004 anti-war rally in San Francisco



November 3, 2004 post-election anti-Bush rally in San Francisco.



Rally in New York on September 19, 2006.




Use Google for crying out loud.

[Horse with no Name]

32. Links please

Not that I don't trust your agenda here...
But anyone can post pics. Without links and information from where they were taken, they are useless.
To start with, carrying a flaming torch through a crowd is dangerous and I can imagine very illegal, especially in a highly populated area like SF.
I want to see legit links where these pics were taken. Thank you.

[anigbrowl]

35. I live in San Francisco, I know exactly where those were taken

The first pic is near the bank of America building at Market & Van Ness, the one with Bush in a noose is about 50 years from city hall. Like it or not a number of people on the left expressed violence towards Bush, deal with it.

[Horse with no Name]

36. Of course you do

:eyes: Not surprising at all, coming from you.
Just show me a legit link where these photos were taken otherwise it is just bullshit leading and following.

[anigbrowl]

38. Yes, I do - what's so unusual about that?

There's almost a million people that live in SF. These are well-known landmarks to anyone who lives here, particularly City Hall which was where I went to vote last year. Sorry, but whether you like it or not a bunch of those photos are from SF - this why if I go to a demonstration I prefer a vigil type to a party protest.

I neither know nor care where the poster above dug up those links from - I've seen some of those photos before on right-wing blogs, but that doesn't make them any less real. The protest in question is also documented here (does not include those same photos).

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2004/04/10/16769111.php


Meanwhile, here's a picture of SF city hall as seen from the UN plaza. I'm sure you can spot the resemblance.

[Horse with no Name]

45. I want to see real links with the pics posted

that he posted.
One word. Photoshop.
Until I see evidence to the contrary, I will assume the OP is lying and serving his own agenda.

[TxRider]

46. Your welcome to assume anything, even my agenda.

Or just use google, it's not complicated.

Start with "San Francisco bush effigy"

Click the image link, have fun....

Replace city name with other metro city names... Denver, Seattle, New york...

See how simple technology is?

[Horse with no Name]

51. You are the one that pulled those photos out of your ass

Not me. It is NOT up to me to prove your "claims". Back them up with legit links or they are nothing but your own agenda.
Half of those do NOT even look like they were in the United States.
Left wingers are NOT known for their violent tendencies, yet you keep trying to make the argument that they are.
There were protests, yes, we protested against the lies. No doubt about that. PEACEFUL protests.
We didn't have VIOLENT protests. These pics look like RW photoshops--which is probably why you cannot back them up with links.
Agenda served.

[TxRider]

62. Ok, a left wing site then...

This was November 4th, San Francisco, right after the election On Nov 2nd in 2004...

From the revolutionary worker #1258
http://rwor.org/a/1258/elections-protests.htm

"When the march reached Mission Street, the police grabbed someone out of the crowd, and there was a clash as demonstrators opposed this attack.

As the march concluded at 24th and Mission, a U.S. flag and effigy of Bush were burned while people chanted "Fuck Bush, Fuck Kerry! Revolution Is Necessary!"

After the main rally, over 100 protesters continued through downtown. The window of a Wells Fargo Bank was smashed. Late in the evening, the police surrounded the marchers and arrested over 45 people."



Good enough?


Did you ask these same questions and demands for proof of people posting pics of extremist teabaggers?

[TxRider]

64. Here is the same event described from another...

Berkley Daily Planet

http://www.berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2004-11-09/article/20056?headline=Election-2004-The-Day-After-By-OSHA-NEUMANN

"But by the time the march ends, I’m tired, and have to pee rather badly, and as an effigy of Bush is burned in the intersection, and the police put on their helmets, I realize it all feels very very old. I’ve done this too many times, and our march seems such an inadequate response to the enormity of what has happened."

Discounting anything and everything simply because of the source isn't very honest.

[snooper2]

48. here you go..

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2009/08/20/media-didnt-care-about-protest-signs-threatening-bush

[Horse with no Name]

52. You offer a RIGHT WING protest site as your PROOF???

:lmao:
Yeah that's credible.:eyes:
Not one credible news source for those pics other than what the RW site wants you to believe.
How about a legit and credible site?
Really it isn't too much to ask since IF these REALLY happened as in the OP's statement, the M$M would have plastered them wall-to-wall to expose the "left wing loonies".
I have NEVER seen these pics before INSIDE of this country.
I really believe it is against just about every fire code in this country to carry a flaming torch effigy through a crowd. That person would have been arrested.

[snooper2]

54. I thought you would get a kick out of that...

but yes, the pictures are real, and you find your own damn links from here on out people have provided plenty of evidence...

why don't you just google ( Bush Protest Signs )

[Horse with no Name]

57. Why don't you just ask everyone else to serve YOUR agenda?

Sorry--I didn't offer the assertion and I didn't offer the pictures as proof.
Those who use RW sites...well, their agenda is very clear.
:hi:

[snooper2]

47. holy shit...where have you been the past 8 1/2 years

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Javaman]

49. worse than that, the poster is from Texas, like myself. we have had to

live under morons* brand of unique stupidity for a lot longer than the rest of the nation.

[TxRider]

55. And even worse under Gov Goodhair...

[Javaman]

61. This is very true. I call this years governors race, "the battle of the brain cells".

because between the bunch of them there aren't enough cells to count on one hand, minus the thumb.

If the Democrats in this state ever got a clue, they could have a permanent seat in the Governors mansion.

[peacetalksforall]

33. I think you are not getting the subtleties I notice and regrettably, the differences

are important.

Did Democrats spread hate - these are just protests. None of those people are spreading the hate and dis-reality. No one protesting is making up lies - they are pointing out lies. They have a lie machine. They, the Rove followers, are carefully guided and impressively orchestrated.

We did not lie, we were not orchestrated. We didn't agree with policies and we spoke out. Personally, I could never create a burning effigy, carry an image like that, or even walk next to someone who did.

We exposed the rottenness. We didn't distort what we found. We had no Limbaugh or Beck calling us to hate the government as if they were Democrats.

[devilgrrl]

37. And? What left-wing movement influenced their behavior? MoveOn? Code Pink???????

A few examples in a sea of millions....

but but but but but lefties do it too!

[anigbrowl]

40. Political extremism is a bad thing in general

The right wing loves the 'few examples in a sea of millions' argument too. I don't think these protesters hanging Bush in effigy are representative of the left in general, and I think there's less support on the left for such stuff than there is on the right (the key point the OP was trying to make), but to pretend it doesn't exist on the left is to be self-deluding. Advocating violence or suggesting it by killing political figures in effigy is outside the normal bounds of political discourse, left or right.

[TxRider]

41. As is labeling everyone because a few extremists show up.

It's playing into the hands of the M$M echo chamber, and diverting and preventing any real discussion.

[anigbrowl]

43. Absolutely - crazy crowds out substantive discussion every time :-(

Instead of obsessing over it, I think it's a lot better to note the existence of the wacko fringe and move on. I really admired Al Franken's approach of engaging protesters and addressing substance rather than form: http://www.dustytrice.com/?p=6421

[Horse with no Name]

53. But you don't REALLY want discussion do you?

Your proof consists of some pics lifted off of a RW site without any other evidence.

[TxRider]

56. With someone who denies the obvious?

All I said is all large political protests attract a few fringe extremists.

And that you can't judge a large group of people by the most extreme elements.

Just common sense.

Your the one stating none of our protests attract a few people that go over the top.

[Horse with no Name]

58. Yet you still refuse to back up your assertion

Good to know. Agenda served.
:hi:

[TxRider]

59. Nahh just letting you rant for a while before I do...

Because I really shouldn't have to.

[Horse with no Name]

60. It's been DAYYYYSSS since I first asked. Your credibility is shot.

You may not know it...but some of us on DU don't buy propaganda just because another DU'er says it.
It is NOT unreasonable to ask for someone to back up statements of fact with, well, uh facts. Or pictures without links to prove they are what you say they are.
Go ahead, continue with your agenda.
I know what you are.

[TxRider]

65. I guess the Berkely daily planet's credibility is shot too...

Berkley Daily Planet

http://www.berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2004-11-09/article/20056?headline=Election-2004-The-Day-After-By-OSHA-NEUMANN

"But by the time the march ends, I’m tired, and have to pee rather badly, and as an effigy of Bush is burned in the intersection, and the police put on their helmets, I realize it all feels very very old. I’ve done this too many times, and our march seems such an inadequate response to the enormity of what has happened."

Discounting anything and everything simply because of the source isn't very honest.

[backwoodsbob]

66. dayum

did you not see post 64?

I don't think the berkeley daily qualifies as a right wing rag

Dude..it happens.BOTH sides have a fringe element.Why is that so hard to admit?

[booley]

69. Considering the three fold law

which while not all Pagans follow Wiccans certainly do, that would be a bit problematic.

So yeah if you could provide proof that this was widespread and frequent like the tea baggers threats are, it would be nice.

Especially since I read Pagan news sources like Witch Vox, I am curious how I missed it.

One lone nut does not a movement make.

[Echo In Light]

5. Also reveals the Right's jealous streak pertaining to the Left's accurate, comprehensive analysis

[Warpy]

10. The only violence I ever expressed

was an uncontrollable urge to put my foot through the TV screen every time his ugly face showed up. I finally just stopped watching the news.

I didn't miss it.

I didn't see any violence advocated by the left beyond the frog march to his arraignment for war crimes.

Yes, this is different. Very different.

[IDFbunny]

13. I coped by switching channels.

Seriously, all together, I watched very, very little Bush directly and relied on pundits and blogs of what he said; just simply too hard to watch him directly.

[bvar22]

15. You are WAY off base.

I can see you never attended any protests.

PLENTY of Bush as Hitler signs, plenty of swastikas, plenty of Bush as a monkey, plenty of Bush as a dumbass (Alfred E Neuman), plenty of Bush is a LIAR.
We ridiculed Bush without mercy, not just his policies.
The most popular threads on DU were photos of Bush looking stupid, or doing something stupid like falling off his Segway or bicycle.
I KNOW.
I was there (and here).

From his inaugural parade when his limousine was egged and jeered to his last day in office, Bush was ridiculed and jeered. He was even "Booed" by Democratic Congressmen during more than one of his State of The Union Addresses. (Yes. It is true).


I really dislike self-righteous revisions of History.
The only REAL difference is that The Media didn't help us,
and The Democratic Party shunned us, even "censured" MoveOn for the "betrayus" thing.



Its ALL in the DU archives.

[TxRider]

18. I also remember effigies of Bush hanged

I haven't seen an effigy of Obama hanged yet, they haven't pushed it that far... yet.

But when they do (and some nut surely will, proudly in front of a camera), he will be pointing his slimy finger to hanging and burning effigies of Bush as justification, and as justification that it isn't racist.

Free speech is free speech.. It should be defended by all, for all.

[JonQ]

27. But that's different!

bush really was hitler, and a monkey. And when his car was egged, and he was booed by congressmen during the SOTU it was an open invitation to an enlightened discussion on relevant points, in no way comparable to similar incidents against obama.

:sarcasm:

I expect in 4 years if the republicans retake the whitehouse we'll see this exact same thinking among the right, and people on the left screaming all sorts of insane insults at the new pres.

[Yo_Mama]

16. Where have you been?

In a democracy you will always have a range of speech. I did not like what Wilson did, and I certainly disapprove of some of what I have been seeing. But it is definitely not worse than what happened over the eight years of the Bush term, and during Vietnam era protests, etc.

I don't know what type of fantasy world you live in.

We need free speech to retain our democracy. Some of that speech will always be disgusting and/or unpleasant to some of us. Right here on DU you see some very aggravated people writing very hateful things. Does that mean DU should be banned?

There are lines that are prosecutable. Directly threatening the president or elected officials should not be allowed. But saying that the president or other elected official is a liar, a murderer or whatever has happened for various reasons in multiple decades of the last 50 years.

What if we someday find we HAVE elected a Hitler type? Are we all supposed to stay quiet about it? The essence of democracy is that holding the office does not give the officeholder immunity from criticism or immunity from action of law. Inevitably, some of the criticism or legal actions will be unfair, unjust or indecent, but it is worth tolerating it so that the public debate can continue.

If you want a public passionately involved in politics, don't expect the public square to look or sound like a ballroom.

[JonQ]

29. I did think it funny that, seemingly overnight

protesting went from the highest form of patriotism to being unamerican, and disagreeing with the president rather than being a responsibility was now at best rude, at worst a censurable offense and racist.

Same old rhetoric every year, the only thing that changes is which side is spewing it.

[Arugula Latte]

17. I didn't want Bush dead ...

Frickin' CHENEY--the most evil man on the planet--would have become prez ... :scared:

[AllentownJake]

19. We behaved just as bad the only difference was justification

You can ask my ex. If his name was ever brought up, I said he should be tried for Treason and turned over to the Europeans for punishment.

I called him a criminal, I called him a fascist, I called him a stupid chimp.

The only difference was I didn't start saying those things till 2004 when it was clear that the war was totally based on a lie, his economic policies were helping out his buddies, and the war on Terror was not a war on the terrorist but a war on his political enemies at home.

I gave him a little more time before I started to hate him not just dislike him. I'm sure there were democrats who started off with the hate from the moment of the stolen Supreme Court decision. In which case it is impossible to make an actual comparison because from the beginning his Presidency had REAL legitimacy questions (not ones created by conspiracy nuts).

Incidently I'm starting to have some disasitisfaction with this President as well. His policies are making me scratch my head.

[TxRider]

21. Everyone who protests has justifications they believe

And always believes they have the truth.

Would you prefer whatever political party was in power at the time be able to decide what was justified speech or not?

[AllentownJake]

24. Of course not

I can criticize the protesters as part of my free speech though.

Personally I don't think it was right to compare Bush to Hitler in 2001. He hadn't done anything yet policy wise (though the stolen election thing). By 2004 I can see why the signs were being made.

President Obama really hasn't done anything to be compared to Hitler, policy wise. Other than the fact he is a good speaker (though the exact opposite of a speaker in style to Hitler).

[TxRider]

70. To me the comparison

To Hitler is a Godwin's law kind of thing.

Anyone that any person or group protests these days gets compared to Hitler. It really diminishes the evil of the man.

Obama hasn't been in office long enough to even be judged on anything really besides possibly the stimulus, which I thought should have been limited to a 12 month stimulus, with another next year if needed, not a 4 year deal.

And even that we can't judge yet as most of it will be spent next year or later.

But he's a democrat in power, pushing for health care. That's all that matters to some, especially the fringe of the right.

If Jesus himself came down from on high and ran as a Dem and pushed for health care they would be painting Hitler mustaches on him.

The repubs are scared, because they lost all three branches of power, and they are going to be very loud until they get one back. The fringes with their extremeism are going to fill the echo chambers of the M$M for an unbearably long time.

But denying it happened to Bush will only serve to look hypocritical, giving them something to stand on, and run off more independents we need.

[Arugula Latte]

23. I hated that little prick from the get-go -- when he stole the election in 2000.

Wasn't real fond of him during the campaign, either.

[AllentownJake]

25. I was ambivalent about politics

Even gave him the benefit of the doubt after 9/11 for a while.

[cwydro]

28. It is pretty to believe that.

But it's not true.

There was even some trouble at DU because of some purported threats against the President's life.

Skinner had to remind posters more than once that it was not acceptable to threaten the president.

[AllentownJake]

30. The big difference between us and them

I see personally is that we are policy driven, they are personality driven.

I wonder what that place looked like when Medicare Part D was passed (largest new social program in 20 years)

[backwoodsbob]

67. the thing is...

they will say the EXACT same thing from the opposite side of the coin

[alfredo]

39. Remember, it was talk radio personalities that encouraged the Rwandan genocide.

[Gman2]

42. I know this much, those spewing the hate all have security.

Anyone says that trash to my face might regret it terribly. I have recently written off friends, lest I waste them. I'd like to see a few neohicks pay for their arrogance and hate.

[paparush]

44. Angry Lefties march, carry signs, sing songs, and sign petitions. Angry righties blow up buildings

and shoot people in the head.

The Legion of Liars (Limbaugh, Beck, O'Reilly, Hannity, Coulter, et al) are just getting warmed up. We aint seen nothing yet. There is no mechanism to check the flood of lies, fear, and hate, and somewhere between 5-10% of the country will stay enraged and frothing.

Yes, a few sponsors have pulled their support, but these propogandists have already made the extreme seem so acceptable.

[Initech]

50. The biggest difference between us and the freepers?

We never threatened violence against W and his family the way the freepers are threatening Obama.

[TxRider]

68. I don't get it.

Even Kerry joked about killing Bush.. On national TV no less..

At least keep things honest and realistic...

[tosh]

63. We didn't have our own 24-hour cable show...

and our critters were not leading our charge.

HUGH difference, IMO.