Kucinich advises Cleveland seize at risk churches

[hedgehog]

Aiming to protect the city's ethnic history and the future of its neighborhoods, Rep. Dennis Kucinich, D-Ohio, is calling on Cleveland officials to seize closed Catholic churches by eminent domain.

In a letter to Jackson this month, Kucinich wrote: "Churches now slated for closure and possible demolition have been gathering places for immigrants seeking both religious and political freedom.

"The deeds of title to the churches belong to the Diocese of Cleveland, but the rich cultural, ethnic and religious history belongs to the people of Cleveland. In the final analysis, it is the history of our city that is threatened."

"As I mentioned in our discussion, I believe that this is a perfect opportunity for the city to use eminent domain for the purpose of historic preservation of these churches," Kucinich wrote.

[MNDemNY]

1. I love Dennis,...

But I would say to this, let 'em go! Anything that may hasten all that is religious on it's journey to the ash-heap of history is fine with me.

[derby378]

2. They could be turned into museums, if nothing else

I always appreciate fine art.

[SIMPLYB1980]

3. I have problems with the fundies, but damn that's cold.

Nothing wrong with saving a little history in my opinion. This is something I can agree with DK on.

[MNDemNY]

4. If it is architecturally unique, or they can be "museums to ignorance".

[blm]

8. These aren't fundie churches. Mostly old Catholic churches in ethnic neighborhoods.

These churches really did serve the sick, the poor and the scared.

[bobbolink]

83. You're letting reason get in the way of bias. Some DUers hate ALL religion

including religious liberals, and including religious DUers.

Yes, the left has it's hate, also. :(

[blm]

7. I grew up in that same area - these churches are very ethnic and blue collar. He's right

to encourage the city to preserve them in some form.

[proteus_lives]

20. Wow, broad-brush much?

With that attitude, you're no better then the people you claim to despise.

[MNDemNY]

22. I'll be less broad. Only some fairy tales are untrue. Is that better???

Religion is the root of all evil. (it's less broad, but not true.)

[proteus_lives]

23. You're still acting like a bigot.

Religion, like anything else humanity created can used for good or evil. Humanity itself is the root of both good and evil.

[MNDemNY]

25. No, the essence of religion is lies, no good can, ultimately, come of lies.

[proteus_lives]

27. Still in bigot-mode.

Please proof that the essence of religion is lies. And do I really need to bust out a list of the all good religious people and organizations have done in the world? Really?

[MNDemNY]

46. Pull 'em out, but only the ones that you can prove are of a "divine" nature.

God is a lie. Prove that wrong.

[proteus_lives]

78. What's with all the venom?

"God is a lie" I can't prove that wrong. Can you prove that it's right?

[MNDemNY]

81. You are the one calling me a bigot.

[proteus_lives]

85. Stop acting like one.

[MNDemNY]

86. Lousy theist.

go pray, or something.

[proteus_lives]

90. Me?

You're the one who refuses to question his own beliefs. Orthodoxy is a harsh mistress huh?

:rofl:

[MNDemNY]

91. Question my beliefs????

What, am I supposed to reconsider whether or not I believe in a magical dude with a magical kingdom where I can go when I die?(provided I have done enough kissing of his magical ass throughout my life) That is fucking hysterical!! Fuck you, fuck your god, and all other gods while your at it.:tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: Say hi to the unicorns and angels for me.

[proteus_lives]

92. You're adorable.

Switch out a few words and a you're a fundie preacher railing against hell-bound atheists.

It's kinda sad. Do you really not see similarity?

[MNDemNY]

94. Nope.

[proteus_lives]

95. Sad.

Living in denial is a problem for a lot of people.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[LanternWaste]

61. self-delete

self delete

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

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[BolivarianHero]

93. I'm an atheist...

And you're a fucking moron. Please shut the Hell up.

[Deep13]

42. It's a way to control people's minds and bodies.

And as far as your libelous use of the term bigot, I already have a response to it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=196408

[proteus_lives]

43. Wow, you're trying really hard.

And it still doesn't negate the good religion has done for the world. I'm willing to acknowledge the bad. I'm willing to acknowledge there might not be a god. Are you willing to do the same from your side of the aisle?

If you're not, what does that make you?

Three guesses.

[Deep13]

44. What good?

And I have every right to disagree with anyones ideas. The fact that we call some ideas "religion" does not change that.

You throw the bigot card around without having any idea what the term means.

[proteus_lives]

49. Really?

All the education, philosophy, history, medicine, science? You can't acknowledge simple history?

I'm throwing throwing the bigot card around because you refuse to examine/defend your own beliefs. I'm not sure why.

[Deep13]

68. You have GOT to be kidding.

Religion generally and Abrahamic religion in particular has stood in the way of every advance in the human condition ever. If we followed the teachings of the church, there would be no medicine because disease would be seen as divine retribution for sin. All medical discoveries were seen as "unnatural" and against god's design when first discovered and some still are. Science? Are you for real? Religion has and continues to stand in the way of science. Are you forgetting all those who were brutally murdered or threatened with it simply because they had an unauthorized opinion about the world? And philosophy pretty much ended in the west when Justinian closed the Platonic schools until the grip of the church began to slip after the reformation. And the only reason the churches insisted on administering education was to exercise control over children's minds while they were still young enough to know better.

I have no beliefs except maybe that truth is worth defending. And my perspective is not the topic of this thread.

Again, bigotry is an irrational hatred of a catagory of PEOPLE, not a rejection of their opinions. I suppose I was bigoted against Russians because I thought the Stalinist system is cruel. You are guilty of bearing false witness against your neighbor by relying on that characterization. Your insistence on characterizing disagreement as bigotry only serves to demonstrate the indefensibility of your beliefs. And while we are on the subject, and since you brought it up, why don't you go ahead and defend or explain your beliefs for us.

[proteus_lives]

79. You do know teachings change and evolve right?

You're familiar with Mendal right? How many hospitals were founded by religious organizations? Red Cross, Red Crescent. There are thousands of aid foundations that help people. And all the monks that were also philosophers. The monks who kept history, literature and philosophy alive during the dark ages. I do agree that religion sometimes does stand in the way of progress but not always. My point in this discussion is to acknowledge the positive as well the negative of religion.
"And the only reason the churches insisted on administering education was to exercise control over children's minds while they were still young enough to know better." That not what they believe. Do you have documentation where they admit that is their goal?

I'm not calling you a bigot because you disagree, I'm just wondering why you refuse to even admit that their might be an other POV.

[Deep13]

88. Obviously there is another POV or we would not be having this conversation.

And AGAIN, bigotry is hatred of PEOPLE, and NOT ideas. So even if you are right, I'm still not a bigot.

Teachings change and evolve sometimes. Catholic parochial schools in rich countries now provide a secular education in addition to the change-your-mind-and-go-to-hell stuff. Fundy school? May as well still be the 1500s. Give me the child and I will give you the man say the Jesuits. Apparently they still feel that way. Documentation? Are you kidding? It's obvious to a blind person. Religion has always insisted on controlling major events in a person's life: birth, education, initiation, marriage and death. It is necessary for them to do that to remain relevent. Anyway, even if that is not the intent (which seems pretty far fetched) it is the effect.

Mendal like many early scientists was a monk because for a long time it was the only profession where one could devote hours to ones studies without being born rich. He was 19th century which is well into the scientific age. Religion still condemns Darwinism either directly or implicitly (yeah, but god works through evolution--a claim refuted by evolution itself). And in countries where the churches are still strong, they still exercise a medieval level of control over the population. Monks transcribed old books. Most of them were illiterate and their transcriptions reveal that. There was no classical philosophy to transcribe until crusaders returned from palestine with Arab books. And those are the ones that survived. Who knows how many writers have been lost forever because pig-headed Christians could not stand any intellectual competition. Most philosophers and scientists before the 20th century were religious because for most of human history, there was no other choice.

I really have to wonder how religious religious hospitals really are. I know RC hospitals disallow certain kinds of medicine concerning reproduction because of the religious objections of other. Anyway, both religious and secular people engage in charitable enterprises. Nevertheless, the odds that in an artrocity is committed for a dogmatic (usually religious) purpose is almost dead certain. The point is, we would have built hospitals with out without the church. The same goes for schools. Anyway, these things are not exactly gifts from god since the civil functions performed by churches is with done with the tithes of the faithful.

Any "good" done by religious institutions cannot be observed in isolation. It has to be weighed against the almost incalulable harm they cause. MLK? Yup, he was religious, at least publicly. Too bad he had to fight against centuries of slavery and degradation done with the full blessing of the churches. Right now, the only places where slavery is lawfully practiced is where Islamic law allows it. The much admired Mother Theresa (a psuedonym) collected donations from all over the world by people who thought they were donating to charity. In point of fact she ran the Calcutta "Home for the Dying" on a shoestring. Most of that cash went to expand her monastic order. Some priests in the war stood up to Hitler and were killed for it. They were good men. Nevertheless, their Pope struck a deal with Hitler and officially supported Musselini and aided them in some pretty direct ways. To this day, no high ranking Nazi has ever been excommunicated except for one who married a Protestant. And most of the world's priests and parishoners were and are okay with that.

Today in the West, mainline churches are seen as benign entities. This is despite their active role in (for the most part) ultra-conservative politics. Nevertheless, do not forget the cause of it. In the West, the churches were FORCED out of power. We should not forget how they acted when they were strong and how they STILL act in places where they have their way. If I wanted to do as much harm for as little effort as possible, it is difficult to image something more effective than telling poor people in AIDS-ridden places not to use condoms. And this policy and the campaign against gays and reproductive freedom is something every Catholic practitioner supports with his or her donations.

[MNDemNY]

47. "side of the aisle" ???

There are not 2 sides to FACTS (unless you are a republofuck). The FACTS are that religion is bullshit lies. Prove me wrong. Good luck.(your beliefs are not facts, even if 4 billion people think so.)

[proteus_lives]

48. Please provide proof for your belief.

That religion is a "bullshit lie." I'll be waiting.

[MNDemNY]

50. Belief? no you are the one with the "belief"

The onus is on you and your ilk, you make the claim, prove it.

[proteus_lives]

51. I'm not claiming being able to prove anything.

As you can read up-thread. I'm just ask you and the other one to acknowledge the good as well as the bad in religion. Also you can't prove what you're claiming about the basic existence issue, anymore then I can.

[MNDemNY]

52. I will acknowledge that ...

throughout history many acts of good men have been done in the name of religion. Those are acts of men.There have also been bad acts done by men in the name of religion. There are good men, there are bad men. there is no god, there is no satan. You can not "prove" that there are not tiny humans living somewhere on the ocean floor, but do you "believe" it?IMO religions lies have done more collective bad, then good.

[WildEyedLiberal]

57. How is this fucking relevant to the OP?

Whether or not you believe in God is irrelevant. The OP has nothing to do with debating the merits of religion as "truth" or finding "proof" of God's "existence." It's about Dennis Kucinich preserving old church buildings which have historical and cultural significance. Europe has many old churches, some of them magnificent, all treated as precious artifacts of the past. You'd raze them all because you don't believe in God? How much of a petty fucking tyrant are you?

As usual, DU's militant atheist militia just can't fucking resist turning even something relatively innocuous into a R/T flamewar. It's like you hear the word "church" and break out the torches and pitchfork. Pathetic, and ironic, really, considering what you're railing against.

[MNDemNY]

59. Follow the thread.

It's a chat board . you don't like it , don't read it.(I only read about 1/10 of you post.http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6599104&mesg_id=6599243

[proteus_lives]

80. That's up for debate.

I can't prove there is a god, you can't prove that there isn't. We both are simply debating about our beliefs.

Whither religion has done more bad or good. Once again, that's open for debate.

[LanternWaste]

60. Self delete

self delete.

[bobbolink]

84. Exactly. But your reason won't affect the attitude, anymore than reason affects the RW.

Sadly. :(

[Deep13]

41. +1

[Matariki]

87. And anything that will hasten the end of intolerance and rampant materialism

is even better.

[Wizard777]

5. The greater threat is to the first amendment.

What part of "NO LAW" has Dennis failed to understand? In Baltimore City Maryland. There are huge parcels of land that are owned by the RCC and the City cannot collect Property Taxes on that land. When I was child. My Parents were the only people in our neighborhood that owned the land our house sat on. Everyone else payed ground rent to the RCC. Preserving the history of the RCC is not a compelling interest of any level of government.

Because no one is perfect. Dennis was bound to come up with a damned bad idea eventually and this is it.

[Trillo]

10. If the churches are closed, how can the First Amendment apply?

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Is an abandoned church "an establishment"?
Is an abandoned church property helping people to peaceably assemble?
How is an abandoned church property helping in the "redress of grievances"?

I'm not a lawyer, but I'd be curious to know what "an establishment" means. Legal definitions sometimes diverge from run-of-the-mill dictionaries. Check out the definition of "establish".

The classic use of the Establishment clause is the prohibition of a national religion. Nothing I read above seems to suggest DK's intent is to create a government sponsored religion.

If anything, this seems to me more of a property maintenance and ownership issue than a First Amendment issue.

If the churches in question were open, and being maintained for the purposes of peaceful assembly, I'd agree with you. But if it's closed?

[Wizard777]

13. Here in Maryland we have "Creepy College."

That is actually St. Mary's College. It is an abandoned Catholic College for girls. Though the college hasn't operated in decades. The property still belongs to the RCC. The building are in serious disrepair. There is nothing that can really be done about it. It's church property and not subject to laws made by the government.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Establishment+of+religion">Establishment of religion

This ties the governments hands in many ways. They can't say what is and what is not a church. They cannot dictate Church Business or how it is conducted. What is covered by the Establishment Clause is cover by the free exercize clause.

[Ikonoklast]

6. He's lost his freakin' mind.

Cleveland is broke. They can't even take care of what they own now, and he wants the city to take over aging churches, some of which badly need repair?

And do what with them, exactly?

Some of these churches will be sold to other denominations, and still provide service to the community. Others will be demolished, as they are too expensive to renovate.

[cap]

9. but history will be lost... those ethnic churches were very tied back to the home country

there were Irish churches for the Irish; Italian churches for the Italians; Polish churches for the Poles; Lithuanian churches for the Lithuanians, etc...

Catholicism is practiced a little differently in each country and the immigrants brought that with them. A lot of churches had saints that were particular to that particular country.

St. Stanislaus is really only in Polish churches. St Rita for the Italians; St. Patrick for the Irish and so on.

The statues and the windows often were tailored to those particular saints .

Our Lady of Czestohowa is a Polish shrine to the Blessed Virgin Mary filled with Polish iconography... An Italian or Irish person would find it a bit foreign to them.

My family lost Our Lady of Ostrabrama (a Polish church with a dedication to the Virgin Mary particular to Vilnius). Closed and shuttered down. Today's Catholic churches are nothing at all like that church.

[Greyhound]

11. Can somebody that lives in Cleveland give us an idea of what these churches are like?

Are we talking about structures of beautiful architecture, or boxes with crosses on them?

This?



Or this?

[blm]

14. They are ethnic-inspired churches that served neighborhoods filled with immigrant families

from post WW1 on....and they are rich in history. And I am with Dennis on this, though I've been an atheist for about 15 years.

[JVS]

15. I'm guessing these

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Cathedral_style

[hedgehog]

16. Here's a place to check some of them out:

http://urban.csuohio.edu/research/pubs/stones



My Dad and his family were members of St. Ann's years ago.




The ten large fluted Ionic columns that divide the nave and aisles are fashioned from light beige limestone. They were acquired in 1925 from the First National Bank, once located at 241 Euclid Avenue, in downtown Cleveland. The columns contain some fossils. There are also pilasters of matching imitation marble (in reality wood). The holy water fonts are fashioned from a white marble with gray veining. These were formerly drinking fountains from the First National Bank. Wainscoting in the aisles is a light beige-colored limestone. The original main altar and the wainscoting of the apse is a gray mottled limestone. Borders in the apse are yellow Siena marble. The sanctuary steps and the altar are fashioned from marble recycled from the old Central National Bank in downtown Cleveland, once located at Euclid Avenue and East 4th Street. White true marble used for the entrance to the side chapel and some other areas is from the old Ritz-Carlton Hotel in New York City. A beige limestone and Tennessee marble are used inside the side chapel.

Remarks: The efforts of the Rev. John Powers (1876-1966) to build this church are legendary. He obtained material for the church from secular structures that were being demolished and saved them until this large church could be built. Use of columns and other stone from previous structures for church structures is an ancient tradition. Many early and medieval Christian churches used columns recycled from pagan temples and other structures (Norman, 1990, p. 32). Even the great columns of the Cathedral of Monreale in Sicily were recycled.



The real damage isn't the loss of the structures, it's the loss of the parish communities.

[blm]

17. Thankyou, hedgehog.....

.

[Greyhound]

24. Yes, thank you. n/t

[spoony]

12. Gee, who could have predicted

that this wouldn't get a warm response here. Some of you sound like freepers after the National Museum of Iraq debacle. I guess you'd rather all Greek art and architecture be destroyed, too, for their associations to their deities.

[theHandpuppet]

21. Religious and historical associations aside, it's a matter of economics

That might sound cold to some, but just how in the hell is the strapped city of Cleveland supposed to be able to afford seizing abandoned church properties, considering the amounts of money and manpower it would take to preserve/upkeep said properties? Why in the world do you think these churches were closed to begin with? Good grief, there are thousands of folks in Cleveland who don't have a decent roof over their head but the city should fork out money for abandoned churches? If said churches could not sustain enough of a membership to keep them going, then just how much validity did they have to their contemporary ethnic communities?
Perhaps there are alternate solutions but asking the city of Cleveland to foot the bill for empty churches is just wrong-headed. It pains me to say this because I love Dennis, but damn that's dumb.

[cap]

32. a lot of these churches are tied to the development of the labor union both

in this country and Poland. A lot of memories of WWII and the need for political asylum during the cold war. Pretty significant history

[theHandpuppet]

33. Not disputing that

But the city of Cleveland simply can't afford to step in and seize these abandoned churches. Not to mention that would be a mighty slippery slope to travel.

[liberalhistorian]

29. No kidding. And they don't see any hypocrisy in that, either,

it's the one accepted bigotry here. I don't care if someone's an atheist/agnostic, so why do people who rant about "religious bigotry" then turn around and want to practice the same on me for my Christian beliefs? Pretty damned hypocritical.

[WildEyedLiberal]

54. I am seriously laughing my ass off

These are the people who collectively orgasm over DK any other day, but now that he's - GASP - claiming that churches have historical and cultural value, he's being treated like Joe Lieberman, because their blinding, irrational hatred of anything resembling religion supercedes everything.

[mamaleah]

72. Me too. It's actually brightened my day to watch them drowning in spittle.

I would venture to guess that they would back any sort of Greek, Roman, Egyptian, or Native American religious site however.

[WildEyedLiberal]

75. Pretty much anything except "xtianity", even though they claim to hate religion across the board

I wonder how they feel about the Hagia Sophia? It's a gorgeous mosque now, but it USED to be a Byzantine church. Or the Parthenon, which was originally Greek pagan but was then briefly converted into an Orthodox church. Or the Pantheon in Rome which later became a Christian church.

[LeftinOH]

18. Here are some of the churches -we're talking about significant architecture here:

St Emeric (Hungarian):

St Procop (interior):

St Casimirs:


These are just three of many such churches in Cleveland, Ohio- a city filled with churches which at one time served *every* European immigrant group- there are plenty of others which are closing or have already closed.

[blm]

19. Thank you.

.

[anonymous171]

56. Oh wow.

Beautiful.

[mamaleah]

73. How beautiful! I am not Catholic but I do have an appreciation

for church architecture.

[Rabrrrrrr]

26. Every piece of "history" we preserve is one more financial burden on the future

we need to end this addiction to "preserving" shit, and the addiction to making so many places "historical landmarks" that become a financial burden to the people who actually own them.


Saving/preserving buildings and land areas should be done rarely, and only for truly important things.

[Libertas1776]

30. "We need to end this addiction to "preserving" shit"

When exactly have we been preserving anything in this country lately. With that kind of mentality, you should really move to NYC 'cause you'll just love all the history and financially burdensome historical landmarks that have been demolished to make way for more economical high end boutique stores and towering glass condos...that are now sitting empty and filling up with derelicts.

This building was considered financially burdensome to the owners of the Penn Central in the early 60s because train ridership had dropped to record low levels and the outside was a little soot stained. They could have payed for a stream wash, but instead they tore it down...


and now we are left with this monstrosity that no one even wants anymore. And train ridership has only increased significantly since the 60s.


Not to mention those people who were addicted to "preserving shit" succeeded in saving this little piece of historical "shit" after that other piece of "shit" was demolished.








Good on Dennis Kucinich. Preserving history in architecture, even in churches, goes a long way in preserving the locale as a whole.

[Ignis]

31. "Yeah, 'Murica is too fulla ol' shit! Tear it down, build a mall!"

I weep for the future.

[anonymous171]

55. I like preservation, because it fucks with urban developers

[LeftinOH]

77. We're terrible at preserving our architectural heritage; adaptive re-use is the key

to preservation -and its a fairly recent concept. We don't need more parking lots & strip malls.

[winyanstaz]

34. Once again...Dennis rises to the occasion for the people...

They could do all kinds of things with those buildings..such as homeless shelters, medical clinics, or food distribution centers.
Speaking of food distribution...help me get out the word..
Fred Meyers (and who know what other large stores) are letting the public think they are supporting the food banks..while they dump all their pulled food products into the garbage. At a time there are so many hungry in America and seeing as how they get tax credits for that pulled food...they damned well should be ashamed!

[Nederland]

35. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

establishes a right to own property. Dennis and DU should know better.

[anonymous171]

58. And what does that have to do with anything?

[redqueen]

37. In Europe older buildings are usually gone due to bombings.

Here we only see $$$$$... and damn the history / architecture / community.

Very sad. I'm glad he's doing this.

[GodlyDemocrat]

38. Dennis needs to reread the 1st Amendment

[Greyhound]

63. I don't believe he is arguing for the establishment of a state religion, only for the preservation

of unique structures that characterize neighborhoods.

[dflprincess]

69. Exactly

there is historic value in these churches.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

39. I agree completely...

These churches are history.

We're always in a hurry to tear down our past...

It's a shame.

K&R

On edit: Can't recommend, dammit.

Too late for that...

[WildEyedLiberal]

53. HAHAHA Dennis finally pisses off his lefty fanclub because he's not a frothing-at-the-mouth atheist

Of all the stupid fucking things to throw the most liberal member in Congress under the bus for - but color me unsurprised. The foaming, rabid hatred of religion by some wackadoos here trumps everything else.

How delightful.

:popcorn:

[Greyhound]

62. Interesting reply from a supposed "WildEyedLiberal". n/t

[WildEyedLiberal]

64. Oh, I love it when people are passive-aggressive about my username

Because REAL "wild eyed liberals" are angry atheists?

[dflprincess]

65. No, I think the point is a "wild eyed liberal"

wouldn't be expected to sneer at a anyone's "lefty" fan club. And "wackadoos" seems to be an odd term for a liberal to throw at "lefties".

[WildEyedLiberal]

66. I'll sneer at ANY hypocrites - left OR right

I love Dennis Kucinich. The people here who are willing to hang him out to dry because he hasn't lockstepped along with their petty prejudices? Not so much. I'll take real progressives over fake posers, thanks.

[Greyhound]

70. "lefty fanclub"? n/t

[WildEyedLiberal]

71. It's obviously sarcasm

Obviously, these people aren't too committed to left-wing values if they'll throw DK under the bus because he doesn't hate religion as much as they do, now are they?

Good God I can't believe I have to explain this.

Edited for less bitchy snarkiness.

[Fleshdancer]

74. I don't like eminent domain

Instead of the state taking ownership of the churches (how does that not sound creepy btw?) perhaps the people of Cleveland can put pressure on the Diocese to preserve them.

[WildEyedLiberal]

76. The churches are no longer active houses of worship

DK wants to intervene because they've been closed by the diocese and slated for demolition. The diocese has decided it doesn't have the money to dedicate to the upkeep of these churches. DK doesn't want them to be state-owned functioning churches - likely they'll become museums or perhaps reapportioned into something for public use (a health clinic, a library, whatever) while still preserving the architecture and historical character of the building.

[aikoaiko]

82. They should be converted into gay bars.

or just any bar.


Maybe I just miss the debauchery of NYC 1980s.

[Fleshdancer]

89. HA! I'll drink to that

Convert it into a gay bar and call it "Headquarters".