Al Franken Reads the 4th Amendment to Justice Department Official

[babylonsister]

You go, Al! :D

http://washingtonindependent.com/60611/al-franken-reads-the-4th-amendment-to-justice-department-official


Al Franken Reads the 4th Amendment to Justice Department Official
By Daphne Eviatar 9/23/09 12:16 PM


Just in case he wasn’t familiar with it, Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) decided to read the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution to David Kris, assistant attorney general of the Justice Department’s National Security Division, who was testifying to the Senate Judiciary Committee today to urge reauthorization of expiring provisions of the USA Patriot Act.

Franken, who opened by acknowledging that unlike most of his colleagues in the Senate, he’s not a lawyer, but according to his research “most Americans aren’t lawyers” either, said he’d also done research on the Patriot Act and in particular, the “roving wiretap” provision that allows the FBI to get a warrant to wiretap a an unnamed target and his or her various and changing cell phones, computers and other communication devices.

Noting that he received a copy of the Constitution when he was sworn in as a Senator, he proceeded to read it to Kris, emphasizing this part: “no Warrants shall issue but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

“That’s pretty explicit language,” noted Franken, asking Kris how the “roving wiretap” provision of the Patriot Act can meet that requirement if it doesn’t require the government to name its target.

Kris looked flustered and mumbled that “this is surreal,” apparently referring to having to respond to Franken’s question. “I would defer to the other branch of government,” he said, referring to the courts, prompting Franken to interject: “I know what that is.”

Kris explained that the courts have held that the law’s requirements that the person be described, though not named, is sufficient to meet the demands of the Constitution. That did not appear to completely satisfy Franken’s concerns.

Today’s Judiciary Committee hearing has so far proceeded much the way yesterday’s House Judiciary Committee subcommittee hearing did, with Democrats (except the Justice Department witness) expressing skepticism that the current law adequately protects Americans’ civil liberties and Republicans emphasizing the need to have all possible tools for law enforcement available because another major terrorist attack could occur at any time.

–

[polichick]

1. Yes, how "surreal" to have to deal with a Senator who dares to ask questions. nt

[timeforpeace]

40. Sometimes snarkiness and condescending arrogance are just what is called for.

[Joe Chi Minh]

79. Is this an appropriate place for a DUer to point that out, or indeed an

an appropriate demeanour for Kris to adopt towards an elected Senator on the Senate Judiciary when being questioned by him on a matter of fact? If Kris had been confident of the rightness of his application, why the need for "snarkiness and condescending arrogance"?

It would hardly have served to commend his presumably factual response about the construction by the courts of that wording in the Fourth Amendment to his interrogator, would it? Sometimes, one's case would be best stated in an unsupercilious, uncombative fashion, and this would appear to have been one. It prompts one to speculate whether Kris is the victim of the Peter Principle? Has he been promoted beyond his ability. Is he always prone to underestimate others, and thus find himself suddenly blindsided, and become emotional? That's how I see it.

[tabasco]

97. It's never time for trollism.

Get lost. Get a life.

[Javaman]

138. Um, what? nt

[Enthusiast]

122. +1, timeforpeace!

Snarkiness! If there was ever a time for snarkiness it is now!

[leeroysphitz]

136. Oh, do you REALLY think so? How clever of you to say so.

:) Just kidding.

[earcandle]

137. arrogance is the fear of being judged and found wanting

[indepat]

66. And how surreal a senator expressing concern that a law in violation of the express language

of the Constitution is being pushed for renewal by some yokel seemingly oblivious to or ignoring that express language. :D

[SoCalDem]

70. instead of using up the first 95% of their "time", by saying wonderful things about the "guest"

and kissing their ass...leaving 30 seconds for their non-answer :rofl: GO AL !

[Enthusiast]

121. Plus1, polichick nt

[TxRider]

2. One of the reasons I've often thought lawyers should be barred from holding office...

As unrealistic as that thought might be.

[gratuitous]

3. "This is surreal"

Yeah, Mr. Kris, surreal; imagine how you feel if you're the subject of one of these roving wiretaps. There's no specificity in the warrant, nothing in particular described in the warrant, and probable cause disappears behind the curtain of "national security," which means the accused doesn't know about the charges, the witnesses, or the evidence against him, but is jailed because he can't defend himself to the satisfaction of government lawyers and "the other branch of government." Now that is surreal.

In the meantime, answer the question.

[wroberts189]

43. Yes ... its almost like they have gotten so used to ignoring the Constitution....

They cannot believe anyone would even bother to bring it up.

[crikkett]

86. Yes I remember the last Administrations' description of it

just a gawdammed piece of paper.

[defendandprotect]

106. Something to be remembered . . . but there were so many---!!!

We should reminisce some day -- too much has been forgotten about the damage done

every day by the Bush/Cheney gang --

[wroberts189]

127. Yep.. and the oath he swore to protect it... just empty words.

For an empty suit.

[liberalmike27]

118. Well, not exactly

They only ignore the things in the constitution that aren't convenient for them in a particular administration, at a particular time.

Like I always say, the constitution and the bible are two of the most cherry picked works I've seen in the world.

Republicans complaining about constitution violations are about like republicans complaining about the debt now, after eight years of Bush blowing a huge hole in it.

[wroberts189]

124. Good points. nt

[The Wizard]

51. Mr. Kris

no doubt wouldn't mind a listening device and camera in all private toilets and bedrooms.
Maybe he'd approve of identifying tattoos on everyone at birth.
Senator Al: A voice of reason in a den of bullshit artists.

[dotymed]

130. "Sneak and Peeks"

are allowed under this bill also. So, when you leave for work,
the "government" can legally go into your home and
look around. They never have to tell you they did this, and if
someone else does, that person can be locked up for
interfering with "an investigation." Come on people,
this is America, not Cold War Russia. This Orwellian named
"law" has to be made illegal. Under this Act,
librarians must tell the "authorities" what books
you have been reading. If they refuse, or inform you of the
"request", they are thrown in jail. Surely, every
American can agree that this is pure Fascism and has no place
in a country of rights and freedoms. If this bill is
continued, the terrorists have won.

[NashVegas]

4. Funny How They Act When Confronted By the Peoples' Representatives

As opposed to rubber stamps, ain't it?

[wroberts189]

128. you would not believe how incredibly refreshing it was to me to read about this. nt

[Jackpine Radical]

5. Something tells me we're gonna be hearing a lot from ol' Al.

What a weird thing to do--try to make the DOJ explain how their actions are Constitutional.Nobody but a harebrained ex-comedian of a Senator would come up with something as goofy as that, I guess.

[subcomhd]

6. lawyers have done as much as any one class to destroy the English language

- in addition to many of our rights.

[rd_kent]

7. I loves me some Al Franken!

This is JUST what the right wing was afraid of. AL FRANKEN FOR SENATE MAJORITY LEADER!!!!!

[wroberts189]

47. If I owned a restaurant... I would name our best sandwich the Frankenburger. nt

[green917]

76. Al's a regular at the restaurant I work at

...and we ALL love him like family! I knew I would be proud that I helped get Al elected! I second the above call: Al Franken for Senate Majority Leader!!!!

[stevedeshazer]

84. Thanks for helping Al get elected.

I'm not from Minnesota, but I'm sure glad he's a Senator.

[defendandprotect]

108. Oh, Yes ....Majority Leader --!!!

[orleans]

123. well, he'd be a majority leader that i liked that's for sure. n/t

[wroberts189]

126. Cool ... damn I would love to have lunch with him.

But he would have me laughing so hard it would be hard to eat. :)


When you see him please say hi for me and the others at DU that love him.


thx..

[green917]

141. Will do!

He's one of the most gracious men I've ever met so I'm certain he will be happy to hear that he's beloved here. =)

[dflprincess]

"..prompting Franken to interject: “I know what that is.”"

Remember on his radio show he used to play a game where he'd play a quote and then ask "True, lie, or weasel words"

I vote weasel words on Kris' "I would defer to the other branch of government" response.

[byronius]

13. Don't forget 'liesel', and the Sound Of Music song. (The Lonely Goatherd?)

I miss those shows. He's very American, that Franken.

[hulka38]

58. I loved Wait, Wait, Don't Lie To Me.

[mucifer]

104. I miss "The Oy Oy Oy Show" But, I'd rather have senator Franken

:)

[OnyxCollie]

119. LOL!

I forgot about that!:rofl:

[Renew Deal]

8. How can teabaggers claim that Obama is taking their rights away and support the Patriot Act

at the same time? It's hypocrisy.

[mrcheerful]

18. The same way they can rant about Hollywood elites and then

vote one as president, without ever once thinking about where he came from or what he did before he ran for office.

[wolfgangmo]

62. Reagan spied for the House Committe on UnAmerican activities

And reported secretly to Senator McC. He was and always will be rotten to the core.

[peacetalksforall]

82. I didn't know that? Boy, have I got big holes in my understanding. This means

that if I use the logic of the last eight years of Cheney-Bush and I share that I firmly believe that the Patriot Act was just a Republican political strategy to gain the upper hand on Democrats and whereas we witnessed the horrific deeds of Republicans operatives being rewarded for for dirty deeds - it all means that Reagan's nomination was pay-off for helping McCarthy get into the lives of hundreds/thousands of innocent people? This means that the database on us was started way back then? Facilitated by an invention of IBM? Or is my free-association too far-reaching?

[defendandprotect]

110. CIA was collecting rw money - even from KKK -- used it to support rw members of Congress !!!

That info came floating out at the death of Wm. Buckley -- who was CIA.

Two of the names were Sen. Strom Thurmond and Rep. Gerald Ford -- !!!

Ford helped with the JFK coup cover-up called The Warren Report!

Pat Buchanan also got money from them --

[defendandprotect]

109. Don't think I ever heard that . . . . interesting . . .

[Overseas]

9. K&R !! Thank you Senator Franken !! //nt

[goclark]

10. Ms. goclark is in love with Al Franken

He has a brain and he has substance.

Why don't we have more politicians like Franken? Is it too much to ask that the Congressperson be able to THINK?

[ElboRuum]

24. Hire fewer lawyers and more comedians for the job.

Lawyers are not paid for the substance of their arguments, but rather the ability to obfuscate any shortfalls in substance behind a cloud of emotional appeal and rhetoric to win their cases, absurd from the standpoint of the concept of justice, and certainly from the standpoint of transparent governance. Comedians are paid for REVEALING absurdity, not creating it (OK, some are, but so far as I know, the remaining Monty Python alums are not looking to enter American politics).

Seems to me that, should we want a government to act on the principle of revealing and excising the absurdity that passes for government, we should be hiring comedians as a matter of course. Shit, someone might even tune into C-Span on PURPOSE if we had comics in the Senate and House rather than lawyers.

[goclark]

34. Bet Jon Stewart could handle it better than

some of the losers in Congress now.

[wolfgangmo]

64. craig ferguson is now a citizen

Just sayin' That crazy scotsman is great at poking holes in idiocy.

[JawJaw]

99. Great Post, ElboRuum

I think you're onto something, there!

Although I do think that even the Pythons see things a lot more clearly than most lawyers, and tell it like it is: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/jan/26/usa.iraq

[WeDidIt]

11. Franken is an idealist

and idealists rarely last more than one term in the United States Senate or House of Representatives.

Of course, Paul Wellstone was an idealist, too, so he's got that going for him.

[LiberalAndProud]

19. Ouch

That's a gloomy prediction in an otherwise very positive thread.

I don't know what it is about MN, but when the do good at the polls, they do very very good.

[WeDidIt]

27. My point was, Welstone was elected to the Senate twice

and would have been elected for a third term, too.

Franken holds Wellstone's seat, too.

[mzmolly]

20. As a Minnesotan, I disagree.

He'll be around for a while.

[WeDidIt]

28. Actually

that was my point. Wellstone was an idealist, too. Wellstone held that seat for two terms and would have won a third.

[mzmolly]

32. Okey dokey.

:hi: Sorry for any confusion on my part. :D

[Uncle Joe]

23. You don't believe defending the Constitution to be practical or realistic? n/t

[WeDidIt]

26. Actually, no, I don't

The vast majority of Congress has sold out to outside interests, unlike Franken.

[Uncle Joe]

29. So what do you believe are the mid - long term practical or realistic repercussions of

the vast majority of Congress selling out to outside interests?

[Selatius]

37. Destruction of the Republic. It'll probably be replaced by a dictatorship...like Rome before us. nt

[Uncle Joe]

39. Thanks, Selatius, it seems to me defending against such a catastrophe

from taking place would be the logical, practical, realistic thing to do, unless you were an idealist believing that a nation ruled by dictatorship was the perfect ideal.

[mudplanet]

63. Fascism. The real kind, not the made up kind.

[Harry Monroe]

30. This IS surreal!!

Let me get this straight. You DON'T believe that defending the Constitution is either practical or realistic?! So what then? We DON'T defend the Constitution and we DON'T expect our elected officials to uphold the laws of the land either? With attitudes like these, its no wonder the US is going down the shitter!!

[annabanana]

33. Yeah... "People are going to just break in anyway. . Why lock

the doors?"

[wroberts189]

44. Franken is an *practical* idealist

He knows exactly what he is doing. As long as he stays away from small planes he will be there as long as JK and PW...God rest their souls

[wolfgangmo]

65. Wellstone was also a hard nosed pragmatist

As is Al.

Look for him to be around a while.

Now if we could only get rid of old Crazy eyes. Look for Taryl Clark (likely) to run on the Dem ticket against old crazy eyes. Make sure you send in your money to support us. We'll need your help.

edit to add that "old crazy eyes" is Michelle Bachmann. My rep. Shudder.

[wellstone dem]

107. Need to add Tarryl Clark will be the best candidate to defeat Bachmann!!!!!!

Go
Tarryl.

[donco6]

77. Let's see, the last time we had an idealist was Wellstone.

And he lasted quite a while.

I dispute your statement as groundless.

[tavalon]

102. That's too bad because I think our country would be much better off if

we had a few more idealists in the Senate. House, too.

[defendandprotect]

111. You mean they get targeted . . . for action . . . ?

[Forkboy]

12. K&R for Al.

:kick:

[lapfog_1]

14. "This is surreal"

It certainly is.

A former comedian, turned Senator, who is NOT a lawyer, asks questions about the constitutionality of a odious piece of legislation which was passed under threat of terrorism to that Senate, about the protections from government intrusion (unwarranted) into the lives of the citizen... and the DOJ official can't answer the simple question "how is this law constitutional?".

Yup, that's surreal.

And sad.

[midnight]

95. I second your opinion.

[ORDagnabbit]

15. go AL!

[BumRushDaShow]

16. It's ALIVE!!!!!!

The 4th Amendment isssssss ALIIIIIIVVVVVVVEEEEE!!!!!! :applause:

It was lost and now is found. This crucial forgotten Amendment makes a simple, understated, but powerful appearance that confirms that it really DOES exist in the Constitution, despite both parties' attempts at eliminating it. All thanks to the Senator from Minnesota! Woot!!! Thank you Senator Franken!

[Uncle Joe]

17. Kicked and recommended for Senator Franken respecting his oath to defend

the Constitution.

[NYC_SKP]

21. K & R! nt

[madrchsod]

22. it looks like al is filling those big shoes of

hubert humphrey,walter mondale,and paul wellstone...

[damntexdem]

25. If the 4th Amendment is "quaint" and just doesn't serve our needs, then ...

why isn't the same true of the 2nd Amendment?

Just wondering here.

[Statistical]

35. The same people who would like to destroy the 4th would gladly destroy the 2nd too.

None of the BofR is quaint. Restrictions on the govt to not infringe upon fundamental rights is never quaint.
The rights pre-exists the Constitution & BofR, they will around long after the documents turn to dust.

The federal govt adherence to the restrictions in the Constitution & BofR is what gives it the legitimacy of rule.

Without it the govt may retain power for some times but is no different than any other illegitimate tinpot dictator that retains power by force and not legitimacy.

[wolfgangmo]

68. Yes

The basic question is "are we a country of laws or of men?"

[Harry Monroe]

31. Damn!! An elected official actually doing what he was elected and paid to do!!

What a novel concept! Fighting to uphold the laws of this country and the US Constitution! Never thought I'd live to see the day! I wish Franken was MY Senator. Those of you from Minnesota, I hope you guys realize how lucky you are to have him fighting for your interests. When he stands up like this, however, he fights for ALL our interests!! He's a gem!!

[Zoeisright]

36. I cannot TELL you how much I love that (D-MN).

Finally. FINALLY.

[SpartanDem]

38. They're distorting a bit about what happened

it was actually a funny moment Kris was laughing when he said it was surreal after Franker uttered "I know what they are". They make it sound confrontational when it wasn't.

http://judiciary.senate.gov/hearings/hearing.cfm?id=4062

It around the 96 min point on the video

[bleever]

98. Thanks for the link, and I agree that it was more congenial

than I had first inferred.

[Captain Hilts]

41. How great is that? May this be the Franken decade...nt

[wroberts189]

42. GO Spidey! Go!!!!! Damn I love that guy.

He is forcing them to face the plain English language they are ignoring.

Score one for the Constitution.

[Warren DeMontague]

45. I guess Al Franken didn't get the memo that the war on terra renders the 4th amendment null & void.

Or was it the war on drugs... I fergit.

[NewJeffCT]

67. either way, the 4th amendment is "quaint" dontcha think?

kind of outmoded.

[winyanstaz]

46. Good job Al!!!!

I knew he would be great for American citizens :)

[ThisThreadIsSatire]

48. Stuart Saves the Senate... n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

49. "defer to the other branch of government"

Franken is exactly right. For too long, congress and the president have treated the constitution as an obstacle to get around, 'let's see if we can sneak this past the court'.

The congress and the administration should write and implement law using the constitution as a basis, not as a hurdle.

[wroberts189]

52. YEP.. They have gone so far down the rabbit hole...

They are forced to come up with the most ridiculous of responses to their denial of the simple plain English of our Constitution.


After a certain point I expect we will hear things like "its just a piece of paper"


Oh wait a minute ... last prez. already said that.

[Trillo]

50. Quantum-Probability Logical Fallacy: "the person be described, though not named"?

That sounds like Banana's Science Forum post earlier today about http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=228x56734">quantum-probability logical fallacy.

Linda is 31 years old, single, outspoken, and very bright. She majored in philosophy. As a student, she was deeply concerned with issues of discrimination and social justice, and also participated in anti-nuclear demonstrations.

Which is more probable?

1. Linda is a bank teller.
2. Linda is a bank teller and is active in the feminist movement.

---

read more to find out if you answered like 85% of the folks:
http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/24124/

1. Higher Education's Bestest and Brightest making errors in spite of their training?
2. Or deliberate deception?

You get to decide.

Myself, I think they're all a bunch of lying crackpots on a power-greed trip. That probably puts me solidly in the 85% group.

[DireStrike]

53. Senator Franken is awesome.

Maybe someday... President Franken?

[L. Coyote]

54. Referring to having to think about the Constitution at all, DoJ lawyer mutters, “this is surreal,”

What is surreal is that the Constitution means nothing today! Ask anyone who has been tortured!!

[wroberts189]

88. Yes and the irony is its surreal hearing this crap . Wtf? nt

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

55. since when do 'THEY' need a warrant?

any judge that issued one for me ought to be Impeached.

...going on 11 years now...

[RC]

56. No Mr. Kris, that is not surreal. Most of the rest of us call that reality.

[Wink]

57. Why won't Franken move to Illinois? n/t

[wolfgangmo]

69. Get your own senator who might become president!

Don't poach ours.

Oh .... wait. Er, um.




OK. Next contestant.

[DWilliamsamh]

59. Call, write and/or e-mail Senator Franken to thank him.

I just called the Senator's office to let them know that I appreciate and applaud his representation of the interests if the American people - instead of cow towing to the "threat of terrorism." It is important that he knows (and others who follow his lead) that people all over the country support him in his strength on our behalf.

Please let him know that even though you may not be able to vote for him, we are his constituents and we are proud to have him.

Franken, Al - (D - MN) Class II
320 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
[phone]
E-mail: [e-mail]

[blogslut]

60. I'm really digging the Washington Indepenent

It's quite a feisty little webpaper. :)

[Nickster]

61. Fuckin-A! You go Al! I wish the rest of the Senate would take your lead.

[Junkdrawer]

71. I can't find it on the C-Span schedule...

looks like they didn't cover it...

http://www.c-spanarchives.org/library/index.php?main_page=schedule&date=2009-09-23

[Canuckistanian]

72. You'd think it would be cut and dried, wouldn't you?

The 4th amendment is clear, easy to understand and specific.

The only "surreality" here is the failure to understand it.

Good on Senator Franken! :thumbsup:

[lobodons]

73. Mr. Kris is right.

The right leaning SCOTUS is the problem. Congress needs to right the wrong and at the very least strike down the roving wiretap provision of the Patriot Act.

What Sen. Franken did today is a start in the right direction. It also just underscores the current SCOTUS balance and the importance of the next couple of Presidential elections.

[MasonJar]

74. Al Franken is going to turn out to be one of history's great senators.

I love the man and his audacity and his committment.

[shireen]

80. +1

Totally agree!

Senator Al,
:yourock:

[Ironman3476]

75. Al's great,I'm so jealous

I'm from Oklahoma and I would trade both my senators and a
first round draft choice for Al Franken and walk away smiling.

[HillbillyBob]

78. The surreal started when someone left a partial copy of the

NeoKon agenda..first we need a "Pearl Harbor" event then we can declare war in 1998. I don't remember if it was publish by them as a group or if it was leaked by an opponent of the neokons, I found it laying loose in a library. I told others that if wimpy the murderer were to run he would 'win' and we would be at war in Iraq or Iran in a couple of years.
The surreal has been just about everything since then.
The search of my home, being put on the no fly list, the phone calls telling me to stfu "or things can be really bad for you" similar emails.
The 'reason' was that the night of the 2000 selection we saw our ballots being shredded in truck mounted paper shredders, and we were outspoken about it. I wish I had had some kind of proof, we did not have cell phones or a working camera at that time. We assume that was what they (fbeye or nsa or whoever the hell was in the black crown vickys with federal govt tags on them) our neighbors reported that to us when we returned to find our door standing open and the house riffled.
At first I really thought that piece of manifesto was just so much nuttiness, but I remembered when Geo Wallace told me the Bush family was a bunch of criminals, and various holocaust survivors saying that they had worked in the silesia coal mine and steel works. ....
(goin out of my mind..its a short trip. one dog in heat 3 others acting up trying to get dinner going and preview keeps posting on me)

[bertman]

91. Damn, Bob, that's one helluva story. I'd love to hear more.

Also, I love Al Franken. And I'm really glad the Minnesotans elected him so he didn't have to go back on Air America.

He's asking me for more money right now, so I guess I'll have to give him a bonus for that nice piece of constitutional work he did today.

[L. Coyote]

135. You lucky dog, they haven't tortured you "physically"

yet!

[malaise]

81. Love you Al

:yourock:

[veganlush]

83. Go Al! n/t

[Wizard777]

85. Al also need to read them the definition of "particularly."

The current comes from them getting away with using vagaries, general, and generic terms for decades now. Terms such as Contraband, Drugs, Weapons and explosives, etc. These are not particular terms. They generally describe but do not specifically describe. How particular do they have to be? Let look at particular in terms of taste. Particular tastes. As in how would you like your warrant served? Would you like it with or without a knock and announce? So I don't think I'm too far off base by contemplating this in terms of particular tastes. With Particular taste a precisely measured pinch of salt is fine. So how about a pinch and a half of salt? That should eb okay too, right? NOPE! Now you've just lost your mind. You've gone too far. Your being ridiculous. This is just pure anarchy. A pinch and a half of salt does not a pinch make. This is brine. They will argue you down to the last grain of that extra half pinch of salt. So this same demand for precision should translate to the Particular Descriptions of the fourth amendment.

[Piewhacket]

87. Fire that insubordinate arrogant clown Kris!!! FIRE HIM!!!

[JDPriestly]

89. Please, please, someone post the link on videos.

[MiniMe]

94. See link in post#38

It is about the 94 minute mark

[DissedByBush]

90. It's a start, now let's read them the rest of the amendments n/t

[myrna minx]

92. K&R n/t

[IDemo]

93. But...but...my old boss said the Constitution was nothing but a *GD* piece of tp!!

[Patchuli]

96. I LOVE AL FRANKEN!

I wish he were a senator in CA!

[Sherman A1]

100. Excellent!

Thanks for posting.

[tavalon]

101. I think I'm going to like Senator Franken

[Jakes Progress]

103. Franken for President. nt

[Dinger]

133. Took The Words Right Out Of My Mouth

:patriot:

[defendandprotect]

105. Shouldn't "satisfy" any of us -- the Patriot Act is more rw garbage ...

written before 9/11 . . . !!!

[TommyPaine]

112. "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety...

deserve neither liberty nor safety."

- Benjamin Franklin, from his notes for a proposition at the Pennsylvania Assembly (1775)

[Saboburns]

113. I'll tell you what's fucking SURREAL

The entire fucking Justice Dep't of the United States ignoring the US Constitution, AND NOT HELL BEING RAISED IN THE STREET.

[RufusTFirefly]

114. But wait!! "Probable cause" is not even in the 4th Amendment!

At least that's what former Director of the Central Intelligence Agency Gen. Michael Hayden said!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGhcECnWRGM

I don't see any mention of "probable cause" here, do you?

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

[gerorgio]

115. Franken and the 4th Amendment

Al is wonderful, but alas he has no clue about the 4th amendment.

It is true what he says when he quotes the 4th. Anyone can google it and get the text, Al did that, and Al has quoted it accurately: "no warrants shall issue but upon probable cause. . . "

What Al does not know - but what every second-year law student does (since they all spend a full semester studying it) is that there is such a thing as "warrantless searches." Absolutely legal, totally sanctioned by US courts up to and including the Supremes, since the 19th century.

The true debate is not over the legality of warantless searches - a firmly established principle of US law - but rather whether the firmly-established warantless-search law justifies provisions of the USA Patriot Act.

[jberryhill]

132. Yes, but...

...then the response to the question should be along the lines of at least generally describing how the provisions in question are or are not in line with relevant precedent on point. You are correct that there are a number of legal warrantless search situations, and that they are well known to 2L's. Since the person being questioned is a lawyer, then they should be able to at least justify what it is that Franken is asking, regardless of Franken's lack of legal education in the subject.

[ProudDad]

116. Too many bushies in the "Justice" Department...

Time to clean house, Barack!

For instance, it's customary to fire all of the (politically appointed by the last bunch) Federal U.S. Attorneys and hire (in this case) some sane, unbiased ones in their place...

Hasn't happened...

So folks like Don Siegelman are still being persecuted by the same fascists Karl Rove sicked on him...

Thanks Obama...

[dotymed]

131. Sadly, President Obama

wants to renew the "Patriot Act." That is not
"change I can believe in."

[ProudDad]

117. Surreal started with "Extremism in the defence of liberty is no vice"

It just got worse from there...

[Seldona]

120. K&R

Way to go Senator Franken. I have a feeling a lot of people are going to be terrified of someone who can actually think on their feet, or at least are willing to do so.

[rasputin1952]

125. The excuse for destroying Liberty...

"...and Republicans emphasizing the need to have all possible tools for law enforcement available because another major terrorist attack could occur at any time."

Seems as though, throughout the history of mankind, this argument has been used to suppress people and Liberty. The old saw, "we're doing this for your good", has been used by every tyrant since people began to gather together.

By their logic, roving wire taps on American citizens prevents terrorism...as well as attacks from zombies.

The next thing is, "see how well this works, you don't see any zombies do you!"



Al is off to a good start; challenge the idiocy, it melts before the obvious.

[dotymed]

129. We voted "for real change"

extending the "PATRIOT ACT" is definitely not what
most Americans had in mind. This a bill that requires
Americans to forfeit many of their freedoms. That is not
acceptable. If we allow the Orwellian named, "patriot
act" to continue, then the terrorists have won. This
"Bill" was passed during the "fog of war"
that immediately followed 9-11. We have realized that all of
those hastily written(?) and passed laws were based on lies
and false assumptions. The 
"patriot act" was one of the most shining examples
of giving up freedoms in order to gain security. The neocons
loved it because it was an integral part of PNAC. It is time
for us to reclaim our constitutionally guaranteed freedoms. I
do not understand how even the Republicans, with their fear of
big government, can support the patriot act. It is a law meant
to curtail our constitutional rights! Please, everyone contact
your representatives and ask them to end the patriot act. I
have done this, and I believe it is the duty of every U.S.
Constitution loving American, to do the same.

[LWolf]

134. Good.

It's nice to know that someone in Washington cares about the Constitution, and about civil liberties.

[avaistheone1]

139. Loving me some Al on this story.

:loveya:

[Dappleganger]

140. My personal hero...

wears horn-rimmed glasses and recites the Constitution as poetry.