Anyone else find irony in the Right calling us both Socialists and Fascists?

[The Animator]

Socialism is on the extreme Left, Progressives are the Left, Conservatives are the Right, and Fascism is on the Extreme Right.

Go too far to the left, or the right, and we run into serious problems.. so the solution (theoretically) is to rely on our opposition, to help us maintain balance, so we don't go too far either way.

Problem is the Republicans have been gradually moving further to the right.. closer to their extreme. As a result, in order to meet in the middle, the Democrats have had to move "the middle" further to the right.

The point here is this, Republicans are moving closer to their extreme, which is Fascism. While not all in their party fit that description, the ones who are pulling their party in that direction certainly do.

I don't have the link for it, but I remember a video listing the top ten elements of fascism. It made the rounds here on DU when Bush was still in power. It made a convincing case that Bush's policies had in fact turned America into a fascist state.


Another observation. Dictatorships and Monarchies are efficient lawmaking systems. A select group of people make the laws, and the citizens have little choice but to obey, whether it's in their best interest or not.

American Democracy is not supposed to be an efficient system. It is the constant pull and push of opposing parties that make it inefficient, but that inefficiency is to ensure that our laws best serve the nation as a whole, by providing equal benefit to both sides. Every important bill is fought over, and the only way to get it passed into Law is to make compromises that make the Bill agreeable to both sides.

That is the way it's supposed to be. The "middle" where the compromises are made, is an inefficient jumble of give and take. However, since the "middle" has been moved to the right, laws made now are more likely to benefit those on the right. While the True Middle, is smack in the center of the Democratic Party, which has become an inefficient jumble where things hardly ever get done...

Here the real rub... this whole thing is our fault. The Republicans didn't have the power to "Move the Middle" They just moved further to the right. And we let them...

We were the ones who shifted right to meet them... we should have stayed strong where we were... and forced them to return to center. We failed in our obligation to keep our opposition in balance. The only solution, is for us to move further to the left, back to where we were. Thus pulling the "middle" and the right back into their proper places. We cannot allow ourselves to be intimidated. We can no longer pass up the congressional candidates that best represent us to pick ones that are more "electable".

[Warpy]

1. Not irony, stupidity

Being corrected once should have sent them scurrying for a dictionary. That none of them has bothered indicates stupidity rather than ignorance.

Ignorance can be fixed. Stupid is forever.

[YOY]

2. +1

And even when you explain the facts they still try to debate it.

The willingness to think the facts are lies overides the unwillingness to consider for a moment that Beck or Rush or whoever the fuck they listen to has been lying.

[humblhumn]

33. the difference is

arguing with emotion vs. logic and reason.

[JuniperLea]

7. +2

[Jokerman]

12. +3

[sinkingfeeling]

21. +4

[Rambis]

3. You forgot communist

I have seen signs at these "spontaneous rallies" that Obama is a socialist communist fascist- Somebody needs to hand these clowns a dictionary because you can't be all three of those things at once.

[YOY]

4. and closet muslim extremist.

n.t.

[Rambis]

15. how silly of me

forgot the obvious meshing of muslim extremism with communist ideology:sarcasm:

[muntrv]

5. These are the same dumbasses who think a black man could be a nazi.

[Recursion]

6. Well, Nazi's were socialists

In the sense that bourgeois property was more or less abolished and the state controlled most means of production.

Our nation's Left/Right split is not universal, and tends to break down the farther away from here and now we look.

[unpossibles]

13. the Nazis were Socialists? Does that mean the German Democratic Republic was actually Democratic?

Or that Ashlee Simpson is a singer?

[SuperTrouper]

16. LOL!!

[Recursion]

18. Read my post before you jump. It has nothing to do with their name

It has to do, as I said, with the abolition of bourgeois property and the state control of the means of production.

[unpossibles]

25. I did, but I still disagree

Just because they controlled some elements of production does not make them Socialist. True Socialism - which to my knowledge doesn't have any examples of it existing yet - puts production and power into the hands of the people, not into the hands of despotic dictators who told the people what to do, a common trick of dictators far and wide who often use Socialistic messages to do keep their control.

Also, remember that the Nazis fiercely fought against the Communists, and denounced them and liberals fairly frequently.

[Recursion]

27. Oh God not the "no true Scotsman" socialism defense...

Nevermind

[unpossibles]

29. Not quite

If you can provide an actual example of Socialism, then please do - I just said that the name has been used to gain control in most cases, just like Communism was. FWIW, I don't know that it's even possible to exist in real life on a large scale.

[Recursion]

30. Look, my definition is pretty simple, and straight from Marx

Socialism is the abolition of bourgeois property ownership brought about by the workers' control of the means of production. Generally that control is exercised through the state, though socialism need not have a political component.

[unpossibles]

35. Ah, but you had forgotten the important word: "workers"

The Nazi workers controlled very little.

And to my knowledge, private property and capitalism still existed in Nazi Germany, although I am no expert, but outside of WND I rarely see anyone try to make the case that the Nazis were actually Socialists. I'm not trying to call you a name or disparage your opinion.

[imdjh]

32. True socialism true schmocialism. NAZI Germany was a warrior state. It had a wartime economy.

It didn't live long enough to have a real economy. All countries in preparation and engagement in all out war have the same type of economy.

[Johonny]

26. If they did that you'd be right, but they didn't.

They guaranteed bourgeois property against bank foreclosure. (particularly farms). They allowed the means of production to be controlled by a few business men. The government destroyed labor unions and forced workers to be basically indentured servants to their existing job.

[Recursion]

34. Banks *are* bourgeois property

Junker farms were not.

[Johonny]

37. ? the policy actual protected small farms

The kind that were collapsing in the US at the same time.

Look Hitler did not care about economics. If he did he wouldn't have left the topic out of Mein Kampf. If he was a socialist he certainly wouldn't have let Dr. Schacht run his economic policies as the man was not a socialist. Wiki describes him as Military Keynesianism. Which is probably a good description. The token socialist that were in the party prior to coming to power got no positions of importance economically once the party took power. I'm sorry I just don't see your point as correct.

[kestrel91316]

36. Wrong. The Nazis locked up and killed the socialists, along with the

Jews, the gypsies, the communists, the gays, and the physically and mentally defective.

National Socialist Party is truly a misnomer.

[BumRushDaShow]

8. American apathy is the culprit.

I think sometimes liberals/progressives are too hard on themselves. When you have the masses rushing home to watch a DVRed reality show rather than rushing to the polls to vote, someone else will fill that void. The same goes for funding local candidates. With no election reform and increasing election fraud and intimidation from those with opposing views, in addition to a general lack of interest (and money) from the electorate, the corporations will fill the gap, and the elected ones are beholden to their funder and enabler.

[appamado amata padam]

9. Yes and no,

Yes, irony from our perspective, because Communism and Fascism are of course two entirely different political philosophies.

No intended irony from them, because understanding political philosophies is not one of their strong points. They are just spewing labels. To them, Communism and Fascism are both "bad" and therefore "the same thing."

:crazy:

[Recursion]

20. Hitler said of Stalin, "He is the true fascist"

Ignoring the similarities seems pointless to me

[appamado amata padam]

24. agreed, but I think the point here is

that "the right" doesn't know their ass from a hole in the ground. :)

[immoderate]

31. Yes. I ask people who use it if they can define what they mean by socialism.

Haven't got a coherent answer yet.

I think of fascism as government control of corporations. What we have is corporate control of government. The results are similar though.

--imm

[SidneyCarton]

10. I've been literally threatened for correcting people.

You have to think like a troglodyte for a moment:

Fascism=Nazism=BAD! Socialism=Communism=Russkies=BAD!

Fascism=BAD! Socialism=BAD!

ergo...Fascism=Socialism

And since daddy Rush has told them for years that Liberals also = BAD!

Therefore: Fascism=Socialism=Liberal/Progressivism

etc, ad nauseaum.

[SuperTrouper]

17. Excellent point!

[malaise]

11. Rethugs believe in projection

Check their policies and see who are the real Fascists. Everything about their defense of the health industry corporations and big oil is Fascist.

[SuperTrouper]

14. The confusion stems from WWII, Benito Mussolini (Socialist and Fascist by self-description) and

Hitler.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mussolini
From Wikipedia

Mussolini was among the founders of Italian Fascism, which included elements of nationalism, corporatism, national syndicalism, expansionism, social progress and anti-communism in combination with censorship of subversives and state propaganda. In the years following his creation of the fascist ideology, Mussolini influenced, or achieved admiration from, a wide variety of political figures.<2>

Among the domestic achievements of Mussolini from the years 1924–1939 were: his public works programmes such as the taming of the Pontine Marshes, the improvement of job opportunities, and public transport. Mussolini also solved the Roman Question by concluding the Lateran Treaty between the Kingdom of Italy and the Holy See. He is also credited with securing economic success in Italy's colonies and commercial dependencies.<3>

Although he initially favoured siding with France against Germany in the early 1930s, Mussolini became one of the main figures of the Axis powers and, on 10 June 1940, Mussolini led Italy into World War II on the side of Axis. Three years later, Mussolini was deposed at the Grand Council of Fascism, prompted by the Allied invasion. Soon after his incarceration began, Mussolini was rescued from prison in the daring Gran Sasso raid by German special forces.

Following his rescue, Mussolini headed the Italian Social Republic in parts of Italy that were not occupied by Allied forces. In late April 1945, with total defeat looming, Mussolini attempted to escape to Switzerland, only to be captured and summarily executed near Lake Como by Italian partisans. His body was taken to Milan where it was hung upside down at a petrol station for public viewing and to provide confirmation of his demise.

[lpbk2713]

19. It doesn't have to make sense to them.

They just parrot whatever the latest TP's are from their favorite lying RW Media Hatemongers.

If Limbaugh or Hannity or Beck say it's so, then that is the solid truth as far as they are concerned.

And that is why the Hatemongers always stress "don't listen to anyone else but me".

[unpossibles]

22. No irony, just miseducation and obfuscation of facts

After getting the right to distrust basic education and information as being "liberal" (see the demonization of universities and the press, and the awful spelling of teabagger signs as proof), it's not too hard to confuse their more ignorant followers with basic misconceptions.

I've been seeing more and more people who have been told and believe that Fascism is a Leftist political theory simply because it's "more government" instead of less, basing the definition on quantity and on false marketing done by the right since Reagan.

If Fascism is to the Left because it's Big Government, does that mean they can't tell the difference between a pound of food and a pound of plastic, since both are a pound of something? It's such an overly-simplistic view of political theory based on bad information, and it's kind of scary.

The irony I find is that they mistakenly think the Right is inherently defined by "Small Government" without looking at the proof in the pudding: the policies, spending, and resulting effects of the past several Republican administrations. They sat idly by while Bush increased government size, spending, and power beyond what anyone thought possible, but are now suddenly upset about Obama.

Idiots.

[aquart]

23. They sling words, meaning is unnecessary to them.

Mostly, they're taught to use them before we can so that it become a he says/she says and both sides are treated as even steven on the hissy fit.

But their refusal to notice distinctions is a problem. I won't even bother to argue an issue before we define the words. Define "socialist." Define "fascist." Tell me wtf you think you're talking about and then we can have a conversation.

[Libertas1776]

28. Not really irony

they're just too ignorant to know the difference. They'll spew vitriol and hate at anything their leash handlers (Faux News & Co.) tell them to. Sure, right now they're saying "Obama is a Kenyan terrorist Socialist Fascist Communist Nazi." But they could just as easily be saying something as illogical and nonsensical as "Obama is an Antidisestablishmentarianist rodeo clown schoolmarm." Both these statements make absolutely no fucking sense. However, if they're handlers tell them it's something "bad," they'll believe it and go march down Pennsylvania avenue with sandwich boards reading: "Stop Socialism: 30% Off Shake n' Bake at Winn Dixie," and "Obama is a Nazi: Rubber Baby Buggy Bumpers."

[Nederland]

38. None at all

It only seems odd because of your simplistic use of left/right to describe the political spectrum. In reality, socialism and fascism are closer than you describe because both believe in state control of the economy.