Courtland Milloy: If the Redskins Care About Honor . . .

[Wetzelbill]

If the Redskins Care About Honor . . .

In response to widespread disagreement over the meaning of the name Redskins, I have crafted this interpretive totem pole of words, in lieu of a peace pipe, to help guide at least some Washington football team fans along the path to enlightenment.

"What means is tradition, what it means is competitiveness, what it means is honor," team owner Daniel Snyder has said. "It is not meant to be derogatory."

Let us meditate on this. Is our home team really competitive? Is there honor in being the highest grossing (some would also say gouging) franchise in the NFL and not winning so much as an NFC East championship since 1999?

Snyder's claim that the name is honorific might soon be tested before the U.S. Supreme Court, which was asked last week to rule on whether Redskins is too offensive a nickname to merit trademark protection. The suit was filed by Native Americans angry over a name they say is offensive and injurious.

It would be fitting if the highest court in the land would take on a legal issue that is sweeping the land.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/22/AR2009092203984.html

[stuball111]

1. How bout Washington "Rednecks"?..

:rofl: Somehow "Washington Native Americans" or "First Nations" doesn't cut it. They should drop that stupid name though, smacks of John Wayne ism.

[BlooInBloo]

3. Pfft. It's never derogatory when it's about non-white folks. It's always deragotory...

when it's about white folks.

I know this is true, because white folks say so.

[JonQ]

7. I haven't seen much outrage over the "fighting irish"

people seem ok with that one, and the irish are about as white as you can get.

[stuball111]

8. No... but "Drinking" fighting Irish might be a bit off color...

:rofl:

[BlooInBloo]

9. A civil war-era honorific of their President that they assigned themselves? That's your comparison..

to a team named after OTHER people, with a term historically used as a pejorative?

Seriously?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[JonQ]

11. I'm sure they appreciate your outrage on their behalf and all,

but 91% of native americans polled said they didn't find the term offensive.

So who are you really trying to save here?

[Wetzelbill]

13. It's a racial slur

It would be exactly like naming the team the Washington N****rs. Many Indians don't even realize it's a slur because they have been ingrained to not look at that sort of thing in that manner. I used to be like that, then I looked at the history of it, and realized what the hell it meant and it's unbelievably offensive. I'd have to see that poll to believe it, but even then, it doesn't make a racial slur right.

[JonQ]

14. I see, so it's our job to stand up for them

because they are too stupid to know when they are offended.

[Wetzelbill]

17. I'm Indian

I was ingrained to think that it wasn't bad either, until I learned exactly what it meant. It's not my job to stand up for "them" I am one and it's my life to fight against this sort of thing.

[JonQ]

21. Sure

you can be offended, but that doesn't mean you can speak on behalf of anyone else.

Hypothetical: I decide that I don't like the name cracker barrel because it contains a racial slur against whites. I'm white, so it would be valid. However, no one else really cares. Do I have a right to force them to change to avoid offending me, even though most people allegedly targeted by this slur don't mind it at all?

[Brickbat]

23. You have a right to try.

You get right on that, buddy.

[JonQ]

25. As these guys do

they also have a right to fail at that. And I have the right to point out how silly they are acting.

[Wetzelbill]

37. come on now

really that is ridiculous. If this team was called the Washington Niggers or the Washington Chinks, and I apologize for the language but it's apt, and had a picture of a black person eating a watermelon or an Asian person with chopsticks, would you defend it so much? Would you be telling a Black or Asian person who says that it's a racial slur that they don't speak on behalf of anybody else? Because that is exactly what you are doing. Indefensible and racist. You might want to go back and think about what you are doing, because it's really bad. I may not speak on behalf of everybody, but I speak for many people, including those people who go out and protest it and those who have that lawsuit against the Redskins and those who have just won one against the Fighting Sioux team in North Dakota. If it was such a good thing, than why would over two-thirds of the teams who have had Indian-oriented names in the last century have changed them? The reason is because they woke up and realized how bad it is, something you haven't. They were fighting a losing battle against progress and decided not to hold on to colonial ideas and white supremacist ideology. In the future, these names will be gone because they are wrong, and the people who are holding onto them like you, only impeded the progression of our society by doing so. It's not the 19th century anymore, we're moving on.

[anigbrowl]

31. ' Many Indians don't even realize it's a slur because they have been ingrained...'

As a European immigrant to these shores, that statement seems just a tad patronising. All the Native Americans I've met in the last decade seemed perfectly capable of doing their own thinking.

[JonQ]

35. No, they are stupid and ignorant

and need us to take care of them. Whites were put on this earth to play the benevolent father figure to the lesser races.

:sarcasm:

[Wetzelbill]

36. again I am one

I think I know a tad bit more about it than you do, but that you think you know more about what Indians think than somebody who is one and lived on a reservation most of is life is more than a tad patronizing. I have family members who never even knew it was a slur until I told them. We are taught to just accept these things like they were nothing, but they are something and it is important. It's no different than people buying anti-govt propaganda to the point that they rail against things like reform that would be good for them. The status quo always tells people that something bad is really something good, in this case, being called a racial slur is supposedly an "honor", it just isn't and there is no defense for it.

[anigbrowl]

39. That's fine, but it doesn't change my opinion

I don't presume to know 'what Indians think' (although I was under the impression that most chose to identify themselves as Native americans and that 'Indian' was no longer a current term). I said my impresion was that they're well able to think for themselves.

[Wetzelbill]

41. more like the other way around

American Indian is a current term and the proper one. Or First Nations people. Native American could apply to anybody who is born here.

So do you think that the name the Washington Niggers or the Washington Chinks or the Washington Kikes would be fine too? Because that's the exact same thing that you are condoning.

[Zoeisright]

42. You're right.

I'm white and I find those names offensive. People defending them either don't get it or don't want to get it.

[Wetzelbill]

45. part of it is religious too

Many of the caricatures have things like feathers and headdresses in them that are sacred to Indians. You have to understand too that these teams and logos were designed almost all at a time when Indians were not allowed to even practice their own religion legally, yet they had to see their own religious symbols portrayed in caricatures of themselves on a sports team's helmet or jersey, that's immoral stuff.

I can't even say I am overly offended about alot of it, I just know it isn't right. It's not like I sit around and seethe about it all day or anything, but there are a million things out there that don't particularly offend or make us have an angry visceral reaction, however that doesn't make them right. I am more offended that people condone it or defend it, when there is no real defense for it. Especially the clear defense of a racial slur. And then they make up "facts" that most Indians aren't offended. Virtually all of the major inter-tribal organizations are against the use of Indian mascots. The NAACP is against it. Indian Country had a survey in which 81 percent of the respondents found them offensive. Yet I see people all the time act like I am the only one who is against it, lol. It's not the overriding goal of my life or anything, but when I see something that is wrong, well I am going to be against it.

[Broken_Hero]

46. Do you have links to those surveys

or inter-tribal groups that you are talking about. I haven't been around the mascot issue since 03, perhaps things have changed since then.

[Wetzelbill]

48. try this

I have some other info around here from a few journals I was published in that had some articles on the topic, but they aren't available online. This has several polls though: http://www.aistm.org/fr.2002.of.polls.htm

[Broken_Hero]

49. Thanks for that, I got some reading to do, I find the numbers you cited to

be a bit higher than I thought.

[Wetzelbill]

50. I would say

anywhere from 25-30 percent. And if there was a vote and a campaign put out with ads etc, those numbers would only go up. It's not something likely to go down, it's a unique issue like that.

WTF, I am arguing with a giant who shoots killer snakes with a gun at a swimming hole, I need to have my head examined.

[Broken_Hero]

54. Hey...

Bub...*snickt* I'm going to go all Beserker on you now, :D

I didn't know the numbers were that high, I'm still reading the links(and links to links) that you provided. Its been a long time since I gave the Mascot issue a looksee.

I'm for it changing, primarily because if a majority of people think its offensive, then thats what determines the outcome. I just don't see it happening, unless there is some outside pressure, beyond Indian Country that is, and in my experience(anecdotal I know) I figured just finding common ground would be hard.

This mascot issue reminds me of the Seminole Freedman/Cherokee issue, where the Cherokee's voted in great numbers to keep the Freedman out of the tribe.

[anigbrowl]

52. Kindly stop putting words in my mouth

I have not 'condoned' the team name of the Washington Redskins, and have no strong opinion about it, just about people's ability to make up their own minds. I understand you regard it as a slur, but if a large majority of Indians/ Native Americans/ First Nations People/ Whatever feel otherwise then I don't see how they are any the less entitled to hold their opinions than you are to hold yours.

[Wetzelbill]

58. it's not whether I regard it as a slur

It is one. And no not a large majority think that. All the major inter-tribal associations are against it, for example. You might be able to find some black people who don't regard the N Word as a racial slur, but just because they don't think it is doesn't mean it isn't. It's like saying the sky is blue, Redskin is a racial slur.

[Chef Eric]

74. Assuming this poll is even accurate, you're saying that the 9% who are offended don't matter.

That's nice.

[tabasco]

26. What's the potential problem with "Irish?"

I could see a problem with the Fighting Micks.

If you're thinking "Fighting" is derogatory, that's quite a reach.

[JonQ]

27. Yep, no stereotyping going on here

That is exactly what all irish people are like, fighting drunken leprechauns.

[tabasco]

28. A leprechaun is a mythical creature.

Maybe you lack the ability to distinguish reality from fantasy.

[JonQ]

29. The actual indians in washington

don't look at all like their mascot.

In fact that representation is about as accurate as the leprechaun.

[tabasco]

30. The problem is with "redskins," not the mascot.

Try to keep up.

[JonQ]

34. And the point I had made

was the about fighting irish name. The comment I was responding to was referring to their mascot, so I likewise referred to a mascot.

"Try to keep up. "

Good advice, take it.

[Solomon]

64. Man, you are sinking so deep in the doo I wonder how you got to

1,000 posts.

It was Native Americans that filed the lawsuit. You bring up polls!!!?

The term is offensive, and I'm a fan of the team. What does it matter to you if some Native Americans find it offensive?

I mean what's your grand principle that you need to weigh in and tell people that you don't see anything offensive about a term that doesn't refer to you personally at all?

Why is it an issue for you?

[Zoeisright]

65. LOL!

Nicely put.

[anigbrowl]

32. As an Irish person...

references to leprechauns, 'you're after me gold' and so on are actually irritating stereotypes. Unles I'm doing it of course, in which case it's hilarious.

[elocs]

2. The important thing is that we honor Native Americans by naming our sports teams

and school mascots after them. The most important thing though: $$$$$.

[provis99]

4. the NFL and "honor" don't go together

you expect honor from a league that nired back a felonious dog-killer? Or employees serial wife beaters? Or even when the on-field play is so routinely disgraceful they have to have penalties like "Unsportsmanlike conduct" or "clipping" to deal with dishonorable players? Puhleeze.

[AspenRose]

5. They changed the name of the Bullets to the Wizards

They should do this, too. It's time.

[Wetzelbill]

19. yes it's not that hard

Most teams that have had former Indian-related names have changed them. St John's is a good example. People are resistant to change, doesn't matter if it's people who think a racial slur is fine or people who think the president is a socialist because he wants health care reform. You always have those who defend the indefensible, even on DU.

[brendan120678]

67. Funny thing about the St. John's Redmen...

they originally called themselves the Redmen because their team color was red.

The logo with the caricatured chief came much later.

Lots of people were displeased with that change.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

87. No offense.....

....but did anyone even notice?

Do the Wizards even still play?

[the other one]

6. Everyone calls them the "Skins" anyway

so just chop of the "Red" and get a new logo. Easy Peasy.

[Wetzelbill]

15. that's just as bad

It means the same thing. You'd have to just change the name outright. It's like chopping off the "sonofa" in "sonofabitch" and saying that everything is cool because "bitch" is an ok term to use.

[kctim]

66. Can I use a tomahawk?

[BlooInBloo]

10. Listening to so many white folks whine about people wanting them to stop being offensive....

is really annoying. I can only imagine what that would be like to Native American folks, asian folks, or whoever.

[provis99]

12. wonder what they'd say if Atlanta changed its team name to the "Crackers"?

[Blue_Tires]

60. the Atlanta Crackers lasted for 5+ decades...

[Wetzelbill]

16. I'm not white

I'm Blackfeet. And interestingly enough, my grandfather is the one who came up with the idea for Washington's Indian logo when he was president of the National Congress of American Indians. However, in the end, a racial slur is a racial slur, you just can't have it.

[BlooInBloo]

18. :) I wasn't referring to you, but rather to all of the defenders of this sort of thing.

[Wetzelbill]

20. ahh I see

[Broken_Hero]

22. Good luck with the logo change, I don't think it ever will change

Personally, I'm American indian, and been in the indian community damn near my whole life, and perhaps 2% of the indians I was around found the name offensive, a good majority liked the term...its hard to say, if the name will ever change.

I find it funny, that as Indians, we like teams like the Redskins, or OU Sooners, or Cowboys, perhaps I don't think of it as funny, as more ironic.

I would love to see more people, both Indian and non-indian fight for more funding for IHS, boarding schools/higher education, or HUD type of programs for tribes, instead of fighting, and wasting $ on a logo, on a hat, or shirt.

Indians are dying from diabetes, poverty and alcoholism, yet there seems to be more attention diverted to a logo/mascot issue...

[anigbrowl]

33. +1

[Wetzelbill]

38. it's all interrelated

And people can do more than one thing at once. Over two-thirds of teams have changed their names, it's a winning battle that takes time just like anything else. A racial slur is a racial slur, whether some people don't find it offensive or not, it still is one and it shouldn't be dismissed.

[Broken_Hero]

43. To many, its not

and this is from within the Indian community, if you put it up to a vote in Indian country how will it pan out? I honestly don't know, but my guess would be that many don't have an issue with it.

Another example of it working out is the FSU/Seminoles dealt with their mascot issue, I think the way in which that was handled is the way to go.

The issue opens up a can of worms, if we in Indian country can't even determine if the term Redskin is offensive, how will other minority/majority groups view the issue? So, how can it be offensive when other Indians don't see it as offensive, to people seeing it from the outside it would be a very confusing issue.

I'm very ambivelent to the mascot issue, this issues was beaten to a pulp during my college days at Haskell, and even then the issues wasn't even 50/50, it was around 90/10 as in, 90% didn't care, and thought it was a non-issue. A lot of instructors like M. Rebird, and D. Wildcat pushed the mascot issue, but most student/faculty could careless.

A very good, and dear friend of mine who is 1/2 Ho-chunk is a very rabid Redskin fan, as a majority of his family is, how can you tell him that the term is offensive, when he and his family don't see it that way. How can you force a good segment of Indian country to see it as offensive, when in their eyes they could care less, they celebrate the team/mascot involved, or they could care less.

Like I mentioned above, its ironic that Indians like the OU Sooners, the Redskins, and Cowboys, or Wahoo from the Cleveland Indians. I think the assmiliation has been too thorough for it to change, but who knows, NCAA has done wonders with the mascot issue, for what its worth.

And of course, you can fight more than one issue at a time, and I wasn't implying that you/or others couldn't, I just found it interesting that the issue seems to trump the others in terms of awareness/media attention.

[Wetzelbill]

47. almost all of the major inter-tribal organizations

are against it. Indian Country did a poll where 81 percent of the respondents found Indian mascots offensive. Opinion polls and other research surveys are always way over the 2 percent that you just guessed on. The results vary on the exact topic, for example, about 37 percent of Indians find "Redskin" to be an offensive term and that another researcher found that among Indians with websites that they contact 72 percent wanted a name change. A Gallup Poll had a more general question about if Indians found these terms offensive and 45 percent were either offended or partially offended. Or in the case of Chief Wahoo, most Indians polled in 1999 said they were against it. It's not always overly clear, some Indians are for it, some are against it, but what is clear is that it's significantly more than just a few percent against it. What would the voting look like? As far as I can tell it would likely be along the lines of how people are split on gay marriage or Prop 8, fairly close. And if people actually know that Redskin, in that instance, is a racial slur, the numbers go up. And it isn't just activist groups either,nonactivist groups such as the National Congress of American Indians, the National Indian Education Association, the American Indian Higher Education Consortium, the Central New York Native Studies Consortium, the Society of Indian Psychologists, and the Native American Journalists Association and even dozens of tribes are against it themselves. Those are important groups.

My family are all rabid Redskins fans, in fact, my grandfather came up with the logo idea when he was president of the NCAI. When he passed away Dan Snyder sent an autographed authentic Redskins helmet to our family to honor him. I grew up a rabid Redskins fan, I am still a fan of the team, but if I can recognize that a racial slur is a racial slur, well anybody can, so I don't buy the argument that people are just so ingrained they can't see the truth before their eyes. I don't buy that it would be a good idea to have a team called the Washington Niggers or some other racial name and that black people should just consider it an honor or dismiss it to fight other socioeconomic problems. It does matter and over time a few thousand teams have changed their names, sooner or later the Redskins will too, maybe not in my lifetime but it will happen. Is it the biggest cause of my life? Nope, there are other more important things I believe, but this is still pretty important too.

[Broken_Hero]

53. Hmm,

I haven't seen any concrete surveys on the issue, for quite some time(like 97 or so). I would like to see the surveys they did, and what the questions were, I find it odd that the percentages are that high on Wahoo, the Redskin one you cited is 37%, thats substantially higher than I would've guessed, I would've guessed around 25% or so.

From the link you gave to me up thread I'm wary of the numbers, especially the percentage of:


Seventy-three percent of respondents also indicated that American Indian mascots create a "hostile educational environment" for Native American students. Seventeen percent indicated that it did not create a "hostile educational environment" while 10 percent did not know.

http://www.aistm.org/fr.2002.of.polls.htm

But from the same link, which I agree with wholeheartedly:

Dan Webster, Seneca, commented, "I believe that as long as Native names, symbols, etc … are used, the school should avoid using them in a non-stereotypical manner and should also get permission and/or advice in the use of the symbols of the tribes involved. As long as the school follows these basic guidelines, I don’t think it would create a hostile educational environment for Native students."


I went to Haskell, our mascot, a purple/gold Indian "Fighting Indians" with a spear in a loin cloth with war bonnet. I can't see that our mascot created a hostile educational environment for the students.

I'm wary of the numbers, were all the people surveyed Indians, which tribes were represented, and what class they are. As for my Ho-Chunk friend, he is highly educated, and he doesn't see the term as racist, or offensive, in life people don't see eye to eye, and opinions vary.

You use the term Nigger/Kike to draw a comparison to the Redskins, but is it the same, is the term in the same league? I don't see it in the same light that you do. To throw you for a loop, I find the term "Chief" or "Squaw" to be substantially worse, I find the KC Chiefs more offensive than the Redskins.

As for people seeing the truth with their own eyes, be wary that the truth they see, isn't going to match up with your truth. There are a lot of educated Indians out there, like my Ho-Chunk friend, and Vine Deloria Jr his book "Intellectual Self-Determination and Sovereignty: Looking at the Windmills in Our Minds" touches on the mascot issue, as well as Indians who leave their respective families, and only pay lip service to their communities.

I'm not against changing mascots, I'm just stating that the mascot issue isn't on my top ten list of things to do/change within the Indian Community. I'm very wary of Indian "causes" that our intellectuals tell us is "worth" fighting, I've dealt with instructors at Haskell who were just as two faced and hypocritical that I find it very hard to give many of our Indian scholars much credit, except Deloria Jr(S. Alexie is good too), I found his writings/teachings very grounded.

I've had instructors who would promote mascots awareness, yet wear the hats/clothes of the teams they were railing against, I've seen our scholars promote wellbeing and care for our tribe/children/woman and on the flip side they are out there embezzling money or beating their wife.

I've dealt with Indian scholars who promoted NAC, but cut funding for NAC. Damn Bill, our community is nutz sometimes! But, I'm wary of our scholars when the start promoting issues that make me go "hmm". The one instructor I had zero respect for is Michael Yellowbird, he...I just can't express how inept he is, and he is one of our Indian Scholars that many look up too.

ETA:yikes, his last name is Yellowbird, not Redbird, I guess I'm color blind tonight! Sorry for my confusion.

[Dinger]

24. Such A Racist Name Does NOT Deserve To Be Sanctioned With Trademark Protection

That could/would (in theory) open up a can of worms that I don't think we want opened, ever.

[Wetzelbill]

40. I think some people can make a case

That say the Utah Utes or the Florida Seminoles etc who have worked with tribes specifically and tried to be respectful as possible could be fine with using the name and trademarks etc. I don't necessarily believe that, I think the names shouldn't be used at all, however I see those points. But yes, Redskin, the term, is a slur, again I apologize for the language but it's apt, just like Nigger, Chink or even Kike. It's at least as offensive, but people just seem to think it's fine anyway. So yeah, you're right, who in their right mind would think it would be ok to sanction something so offensive with trademark protection? It's ridiculous and really sad that even supposed "progressives" defend it like it's ok.

[eridani]

72. Seminoles seems more like Vikings to me

Redskins is more as if the Vikings were to be renamed the Squareheads.

[Wetzelbill]

81. yes

I think there can be a case made in the other instances, I am not really against it so much as I am against the overtly negative ones. Redskins is really a clear cut case on a name, while say the Seminoles or Utes isn't.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

86. These Native groups protest Florida State too

I've heard about them going so far as to call the Seminole tribe "traitors" and "prostitutes" for allowing the name to be used.

It's why I have a hard time taking them seriously if they are so strident and angry against their own people.

[sofa king]

44. Screw them. They haven't done shit for tribes.

They've made a whole lot of money using that slur, and it's obvious they'll take it as far as it can go. As far as I know, not a dime has been spent to address the poverty, bad water, isolation, and crumbling public works that America's Native Americans currently endure.

I'd root for them more if they changed their name.

[cherokeeprogressive]

51. As an Cherokee Indian one generation removed from the reservation in Tahlequah; I'm not offended.

I have an idea though, that might make those white people who feel guilty about team names and logos and copyrighted stuff feel a little better...

Divert some money from those who use the logo or the name and distribute it equally to those people who can legally claim Indian ancestry through the Dawes Rolls.

I have a CDIB, and legal claim to the tribal roll numbers of my Great-Grandparents. I wouldn't mind a few bucks every month paid to me due to the actions of white people who feel guilty.

Heck, I might even become a Redskins fan.

[Broken_Hero]

55. Hey man, how much longer does Cherokee Nation have

to put up with Chad "corntassel" Smith.....:) I'm sorry you guys had to endure him for this long...it could be worse, you could be Osage and stuck with Jim Gray.

:hide:

[cherokeeprogressive]

56. You're not serious? n/t

[Broken_Hero]

57. I'm sorry, my wife is Keetowah Band cherokee

and she doesn't like Chad Smith, Cherokee Nation and Keetowah Band don't get a long too well, :)

[JonQ]

59. Apparently it's not up to you to decide for yourself

whether or not you are offended. That's up to well meaning whites, acting on your behalf as you don't understand that redskins is a slur and you should be horribly offended.

[G_j]

62. and your interest in this?

who are you speaking for?

[JonQ]

63. The people who are annoyed with this idiocy

and want it to stop.

You know, about 90% of the country.

[Chef Eric]

75. Right, because if a majority doesn't see a problem, then there must not be a problem.

Like when we were invading Iraq, and a majority of Americans didn't see a problem with it. I guess the minority who did SEE a problem with it were just annoying the majority with their "idiocy."

:sarcasm:

[Wetzelbill]

70. he's an racial apologist

Thinks that the term Cracker Barrel is equivalent to the N Word or the word Redskin and is wondering why people are offended because he's not offended that the word Cracker is used. Either that or he's an idiot.

[Wetzelbill]

71. again

I am not white and Redskin is a racial slur. It's not about deciding anything, the fact is that you would not be defending it if it was the N Word or some other slur. Or maybe you would, that kind of sounds like something you would do.

[JonQ]

88. Ha,

yeah, that's exactly something I'd do.

[Blue_Tires]

61. it would be nice, but

if it hasn't been changed by now i doubt it ever will...

[kctim]

68. The right to NOT be offended

what BS.
Don't like the name? Buy the team and change it.

[Wetzelbill]

69. again

would you say that if it was called the Washington Niggers or Chinks? It's not about liking the name, it's that the name is an outright racial slur. How can you condone that? And do you know how poor Indians typically are, how are they supposed to buy a team and change the name?

[11 Bravo]

73. Read "I am a Redskin: The Adoption of a Native American Expression, 1769-1826" by ...

Ives Goddard, senior linguist emeritus at the Smithsonian Institute. He points out how in a number of Indian languages the expression for "red" was used to differentiate Native Americans from whites and blacks, and "skin" referred to race. "Redskin" was used interchangeably for "American Indian" in speeches by numerous early chiefs. It became more common with the publishing of James Fennimore Cooper's "The Pioneers" and "The Last of the Mohicans". Goddard found that the early history of the term "redskin" tells a story of emergent Native American identity and empowerment.

[Wetzelbill]

77. you would be hard pressed

to find any contemporary Indian scholar including Goddard who thinks that his research justifies the current use of the term as a pejorative. He's said so himself. I am always amazed at the lengths that people will go to defend an outright racial slur. If you substitute any other race or even something like an LGBT slur and nobody would try to defend the indefensible. The word faggot didn't have a negative connotation when it was initially used in the 17th Century, but now if the team was called the Washington Faggots, I doubt anybody would try so hard to justify it.

[Prism]

79. You know . . .

I'm pretty militant about homophobia, and yet . . . a piece of me thinks the Washington Faggots would be completely awesome. Reading your post, I knew it was coming, I saw it on the horizon, I was totally prepared for it, and then Washington Faggots arrived and coffee still came out of my nose. Of course it would be entirely offensive, but the concept is still hilarious for some reason. Maybe it's the mental images.

As for the topic at hand. I've known some Native Americans offended by the mascots and others who feel they're actually a point of cultural pride and opportunity for awareness. As somone with only minimal NA heritage, I feel like an outsider looking in on a family squabble. If there were more universal agreement about the offensiveness, the case would be much easier to make. But that internal disagreement, I think, weakens the case and makes it much less clear cut.

What to do when people of Native American heritage are deeply split on an issue where some are offended by something that other members of that community take pride in?

[Wetzelbill]

82. well now that you mention it

It is kind of funny. Yeah I really telegraphed it for sure.

Well the issue of the name Redskins is clear cut, it is a flat out racial slur, that's not condonable whether some people are offended by it or not. Some women aren't offended by the word Bitch, they've even have had a movement to take it back and use it in a different way, but that it is a pejorative isn't in question, just like the word Redskin. Many Black people use the N Word and, indeed, some Indians use the word "skin" and they do so for various reasons and may not be offended by it in certain contexts. However, to have a racial slur outright and in the open and celebrated is a different matter. It doesn't matter if people are split on Redskin or not really, it's a racial slur and that's a fact. Some of the other names you can maybe make a case for, but this one, not at all. It's a heinous term.

[kath]

76. What about "Savages" for a team name?

I find that one REALLY offensive, and it's way too common out here in OkieHell. A few weeks back I saw a team bus with "Quinton Savages" plastered all over it in big letters, complete w/ picture of the mascot - a Native American w/ warpaint in a stereotypical headdress : http://quintonschools.com/education/components/sectionlist/default.php?sectiondetailid=86&&PHPSESSID=ffab1c958816ebda2ad35153db273167
I wanted to barf, it was so offensive. Seems like the bus could have said "Quinton High School Athletics" or some such, and downplayed the whole "Savages" bit, rather than freakin' EMPHASIZING it. ACK.



From http://www.aistm.org/oklahoma.htm :
Oklahoma

Number of "Indian" sports team tokens - Approximately 165

Most frequently used "Indian" token - "Indians" (62)

Twenty-seventh in total population, Oklahoma ranks number six (6) out of the top ten states in overall "Indian" token usage.

Oklahoma schools rank second in the use of the "Redsk*ns" nickname (15) and first in the use of "Savages" (9).

[Wetzelbill]

78. yes it's classic dehumanization

And it's a term referring to a group of people who this nation tried to exterminate of the face of the earth at one time, faced relocation, termination, assimilation. There are people in this country who don't even believe Indians exist anymore. I had a state tribal coordinator tell me once that a state legislator stood up in the legislature while they were talking over an Indian related bill and he asked why this was an issue because there weren't even any Indians anymore. This was in a state with a significant Indian population and several reservations. It may seem little, but when you allow others to think of a group of people as something less than human it pushes the concept that these people don't exist or at least irrelevant. It's not much different than the idea that we needed to go into Iraq and force our economic and political systems on them and allow our religious zealots like Blackwater founded Erik Prince to engage in a holy war against them. When somebody becomes "the other" the status quo can justify any amount of pain they inflict on them and call it progress.

[Bill McBlueState]

80. I don't understand why people are so obsessed with keeping the name

High schools and colleges all over the place have changed offensive nicknames, and nothing bad has come of it.

[Wetzelbill]

83. yes most teams over the years have changed their names

Of the schools around the country who historically used Indian oriented names, about two-thirds have changed them in the last several decades. The sky didn't fall as a result. It's progress, but, as usual, people will fight change, sometimes it seems just to fight it. State capitols stopped flying the Confederate Flag too and the world hasn't ended, there just comes a time when we, as a country, grow a little bit and move on from those embarrassing parts of our past.

[cherokeeprogressive]

84. This card-carrying member of the Cherokee nation with a tribal roll number that dates back to the

Dawes Rolls wishes that white people with guilt feelings would spend their dollars not on court cases but on Native Americans themselves.

My Grandfather, who was born on the reservation had a sister who never left the reservation and whose pet name for her brother was "Blanketass". My white Grandmother who lived in Tahlequah and used to walk through the woods to see him as a young girl used to call my Grandfather "Chief".

Hey guilty feeling white people: Get. The. Fuck. Over. Yourselves. Already. Yeah, you fucked over a whole race of people with your "Manifest Destiny", but we're still here, and beginning to prosper like never before... Some of us anyway.

Work toward solving the problems that Native Americans face every day. Work toward solving the problems YOU caused. Help us overcome the alcoholism you foisted on us. Help us overcome the diabetes that it engendered. But, stop fucking telling us what we should be offended by. We're smarter than you think we are. In fact, we're SMARTER than you. We are offended by your past actions, not by your present team names.

Show me the thousands of protesters outside of JFK Stadium before Redskins games. Show me the thousands of protesters outside of Florida Seminoles games. THEN tell me I need to be offended like the rest of my Native American brothers and sisters.

Then go back to your wars over "In God We Trust", and shoot each other.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

85. Money

It's a brand name.

The other schools didn't have the millions of dollars sunk into merchandise that the NFL does.