Are female students 'a perk of the job'?

[ccharles000]

We've had a week of sex scandals in schools. Now Terence Kealey, vice-chancellor of Buckingham University, seems intent on stirring things up on the academic front.

Female students, he declares, are a perk of the job for male university lecturers – though they should look, not touch.

In an article for the Times Higher Education magazine on lust, part of a feature on the seven deadly sins of universities, Kealey wrote: "Normal girls – more interested in abs than in labs, more interested in pecs than specs, more interested in triceps than tripos – will abjure their lecturers for the company of their peers, but nonetheless, most male lecturers know that, most years, there will be a girl in class who flashes her admiration and who asks for advice on her essays. What to do?

"Enjoy her! She's a perk."

Flashing a few literary allusions, he continued: "She doesn't yet know that you are only Casaubon to her Dorothea, Howard Kirk to her Felicity Phee, and she will flaunt you her curves. Which you should admire daily to spice up your sex, nightly, with the wife."

Displaying a more surprising familiarity with the etiquette at lapdancing clubs, Kealey added: "As in Stringfellows, you should look but not touch."

The magazine's academic readers were outraged, including otototototoi who wrote: "I'm amazed that Terence K has a position in any university, and I'll be damn sure never to apply for a job at Buckingham. Why did the THE print this awful, ugly nonsense?"

Kealey, who has been vice-chancellor at Buckingham, the country's only independent university, for eight years, said it was a myth that an affair between student and lecturer was an abuse of power, saying accountability has meant that "the days are gone when a scholar could trade sex for upgrades".

But he added that some female students still fantasised about their lecturers.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/mortarboard/2009/sep/23/kealey-female-students-perk#att-most-commented

[trumad]

1. I just had to see what this Douche looked like---LOL--he didn't let me down.

[Quantess]

2. "I wear tight polyester pants, and they look at my crotch".

[Monk06]

3. Well he's standing beside his watch so at least he knows what time it is.

BTW dear professor if you are bald the custom
these days is to shave and work on those lats.

Also don't smile you look like a counsel git.

[Are_grits_groceries]

4. Hmmmmmmmm....

[spiritual_gunfighter]

7. I thought he would look like a guy

that no female would touch except in a situation where they thought it could help their grades.

[seabeyond]

10. right, cause girls are such whores they are so willing to sell self for grade

with some ugly ass old fart?

[spiritual_gunfighter]

18. It happens

I was in class with a girl that slept with the prof. for that very reason.

[seabeyond]

22. right.

little porn fantasy

[spiritual_gunfighter]

27. Obviously

your own paradigm where all women are bastions of morality and would never do something like that is shaken by my "porn fantasy". Unfortunately it does happen and you are naive to think it never has. But please continue to live in your own "fantasy" if you wish. I could care less.

[seabeyond]

29. your post normalizes it as our girls whoring themselves out for a grade

and you see no offense in that. instead you would like to discuss my naivity.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

35. I discuss your naivity

because your position is that it never happens, not only is that a ridiculous statement on the face of it, you are completely misrepresenting what I said, which doesnt really surprise me when someone makes an abject blanket statement.

You are claiming that I "normalize it as our girls whoring themselves out for a grade". You are making it as if I said it happens all the time. I dont know if it does, what I do know is I know someone that did it, and I suspect she isn't the only person in the world to have ever done it.

I would suggest staying away from "this never happens" statements in the future and try not to walk back, or twist what my original statement was. You usually fare better in the long run.

[seabeyond]

38. you give me a position that i have never stated

which is not only ridiculous but dishonest.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

42. You were dishonest when you

said that "yeah cause we all know girls are such whores..." You used a hyperbolic statement to misrepresent what I said initially. You used a "trick" that many DU's use when they want to be dishonest in a response to something they disagree with. Since "A" said this, I will misrepresent what they said and assume they think all women or whatever subject they are waxing on are whores or whatever.

So to now claim I am being dishonest and riduculous when you initially started this whole thread with a completely dishonest statement is laughable. You then claimed I was lying about something that actually happened to me and claimed I was having a "porn fantasy". So continuing any other sort of intelligent debate with you is fruitless, I dont know why I even went this far with you.

Go away now.

[seabeyond]

44. the girls would only screw for a grade. tell me, what is that but.....

where is that a dishonest misrepresentation. it is a blunt representation of what you said.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

45. I told you to go away n/t

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

52. Don't forget that they don't ever consent to group sex either in that paradigm

[Quantess]

155. Gross. Ho do you kno this hppened?

(my fucking ct spilled coffee on the keybord) LOL

[spiritual_gunfighter]

165. She was a friend of mine from college

Her prof. constantly flirted with her and she wasn't doing well in the course, she finally gave in to his advances and she told me he changed her grade. She felt horrible about doing it and wishes she never did it. But that person thinks I am having a "porn fantasy", hilarious.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

166. She was a friend of mine from college

Her prof. constantly flirted with her and she wasn't doing well in the course, she finally gave in to his advances and she told me he changed her grade. She felt horrible about doing it and wishes she never did it. But that person thinks I am having a "porn fantasy", hilarious.

[subcomhd]

13. Is that really him?

[customerserviceguy]

39. He looks like Carrot Top's father.

:P

[AspenRose]

88. Yep.

[Prometheus Bound]

5. Duh!

[seabeyond]

6. this is the ugly ass males way of feeling empowered, instead they are just shriveled.

and they are so stupid as not to realize everyone sneers at them with disdain. they are pathetic little creatures with such little lives

[Prometheus Bound]

15. If a silly article like this makes you so angry it must be tough getting through the day.

[seabeyond]

19. making our girl things and purely male entertainment bothers me

your duh seems to imply you agree with the mentality.

let me worry about my day.

[Prometheus Bound]

23. He says 'look but don't touch'. So then who cares?

Why on earth would anyone get upset about it?

[seabeyond]

37. most all of us females have been in position

where we have had the male that dehumanizes us. and it comes out in so many ways. with this attitude it is in the actions too. not hard for a female to recognize. we learn it early. and he. is. a. pathetic. person.

it isnt cute, fun, complimentary. they make sure you know it is not complimentary

if you have never had that feeling, you are clueless and cannot begin to understand

[girl gone mad]

43. The guy is in his 50s.

Maybe it's time to get his testosterone levels checked if he can't even get through lectures without libidinizing his female students in third rate mental porn fantasies. He is in a position of authority over these girls, and therefore he is obligated to treat them with respect. Objectifying students during class and encouraging other lecturers to do the same doesn't strike me as very professional. Do you really believe his students would be comfortable to know that during lecture he is storing a mental image of their 'curves' to think about while he's having sex with his wife later? Do you really think that's an appropriate way for a teacher to behave toward a student? What about a doctor and a patient?

[Kalyke]

57. A lot of women.

We're not objects for his amusement.

We're not objects at all. We are, this will surprise you, humans.

[Odin2005]

113. Feminism, the radical notion that Women are PEOPLE.

A make professor thinking to himself that one of his students is attractive is one thing, calling them "perks of the job" is another thing entirely.

[Mad_Dem_X]

121. +1

Nice avatar, BTW. :)

[Berry Cool]

60. Because...it dehumanizes the young women students

and it also advises male professors to fantasize about other women when with their wives.

Yeah, I know you'd say "She'll never know, who cares?"...but HE will know. I am sure the idea of this mattering is alien to you. But it's not alien to all people.

[petronius]

175. "Look but don't touch" is a very flexible phrase. If it simply means

'notice that someone is attractive,' then fine, but for a lot of professors it means flirt, leer, ogle, comment, etc. but don't touch - and female students are well-aware of it when it happens...

[dsc]

26. I do wonder if he wrote the same article but about male students

if you would find it as innocent and unworthy of concern.

[Prometheus Bound]

32. There is simply nothing to be concerned about here. "Look but don't touch."

Just another excuse for people with serious anger problems to get angry about something.

[seabeyond]

34. every female that now walks in his class KNOWS his thought and it is an uncomfortable

environment to be in.

it is perverted

these girls have a right to sit in a class, receive an education without knowing this man is strippin them naked in his mind

it is a pathetic man that dehumanizes all female for his play and then to say it outloud is one step further in control...

[cwydro]

48. You might as well give up with this one...

you're arguing with a clueless git.

[Prometheus Bound]

74. Well you're a nasty one, aren't you.

[cwydro]

111. No.

You are.

I can't believe how willing you are to show your ignorance.

[Kalyke]

59. Not serious anger problems - serious problems with males

who can't seem to understand how to respect females without objectifying them.

What about this don't you get?

[Berry Cool]

61. Yeah, we have to dismiss that which we cannot understand, right?

Suit yourself. It wouldn't be the first time women's issues were dismissed as "nothing."

[AspenRose]

90. Or dismissed as the woman's problem somehow (e.g. "serious anger problems")

[Odin2005]

114. There is a difference between thinking a student is attractive and...

thinking of "pretty girls" as "perks of the job". The former is just human nature, the later shows a dehumanizing attitude towards women.

[redqueen]

129. If only everyone were so insightful.

:thumbsup:

[msanthrope]

169. No, the message is "Gawk freely. Treat women you find sexually

appealing in a manner markedly different from everyone else, in front of everyone else. Then go home and have sex with your wife while you think of another woman. Revel in your privilege. Lather, rinse, repeat."

Disgusting.

Would you like your daughter to be publicly ogled by some middle-aged creep?

[BuelahWitch]

141. +1

[Fumesucker]

28. If someone were to make a comment about "ugly ass females"

I suspect you would not like it..

[seabeyond]

31. if someone were to be such a creep to males, or say sexualize their male student

and condone it in posts, .... no.... i wont have issue.

there is something to be said about the ugly male using this form of objectifying all female as things to feel empowered, manly.

[Fumesucker]

40. I've learned that men and women are not so different..

Not as different as you would like to think, I believe.

The guy just said what most men (and women I believe) are thinking.

[seabeyond]

47. really. and when did our adult foreplay become using our youth for stimulation all during day to go

home to fuck our mate?

actually i think that we are much more similar than not. so i agree with you on that.

this man is insulting to the female students. he is insulting to his wife.

if that is most all of us, i will be the one on the fringe.

female students are not perks. (and no pun please, lol, not in the mood)(teasing)

[Fumesucker]

73. Being in a job that puts you close to attractive members of the opposite sex..

Is indeed a form of "perk", at least IMO.

And I think it's true for most women as well as most men.

And for gays, it would be working around attractive members of the same sex. :)

Like it or not, appearance is a large component of sexual attraction, more so for men than women perhaps but women are not immune to that particular form of attraction by any means.

[WonderGrunion]

105. Men rarely get offended

by being objectified or sexualized.

[Big Blue Marble]

133. By other men? N/T

[WonderGrunion]

142. Only if they're homophobic

Doesn't bother me.

[Confusious]

159. Is that "no, I wouldn't have a problem

If a female teacher was objectifying their male students"?

Just want make sure I understand that correctly.

[JVS]

56. I'm sure they cry all the way into the bed thinking about how disdained they are,

Then they fuck and feel better about things.

[WonderGrunion]

102. Not everyone

Just the female part of the population.

[WonderGrunion]

104. Are you suggesting it's ok for good looking guys to be sexist?

I wonder considering your reference to all "sexist males" as "ugly assed" with "shriveled dick syndrome". It almost sounds like you're advocating the same evolutionary biology diatribe that is seen as an expression of sexism.

Is it ok for "hot assed" guys with "rock hard dicks" to objectify and sexualize women?

[branders seine]

115. what is an ugly ass broad's way of feeling empowered?

[Buzz Clik]

8. Some fantasies are better kept to oneself.

[seabeyond]

12. they cant keep to self cause is about feeling like a man when everything tells him he isnt

has to share it to feel the empowerment over the females.

[Prometheus Bound]

33. You got it exactly.

Some things you just don't talk about.

[Doctor_J]

112. Amen. Who among us has absolutely no fantasies?

This dope really didn't need to tell everyone about his.

[Prometheus Bound]

176. To be fair though, it was intended as a humorous piece.

A light-hearted attempt to recognize sin in oneself.

I don't suppose he would ever have imagined that it would draw 100 times more rage than the bombing of innocents in Afghanistan does.

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=408135

[redqueen]

181. And it was humorous to entitled males everywhere, I'm sure.

And please, with the deflection. :eyes:

People are calling Obama "the same as bush" over his Afghanistan escalation... there have been dozens of threads about it (not just one, like this POS got).

[Prometheus Bound]

183. So much anger over an insignificant administrator of an insignificant school in a faraway land.

Trying to be funny about admitting his sins.

I think I could start a new Wikipedia page on hackneyed phrases using this thread.

[Czar One]

9. I have ALWAYS disapproved of this shit!

I don't care how old the female student is!

[LeftishBrit]

11. Did someone use the swear-words 'Terence Kealey'?!

AAARGH!!! I know of him mainly because of his right-libertarian crusades against public sector funding and for letting everything be decided by the free market. His campaigns are mainly about science and education funding. He has campaigned to abolish public funding of science altogether. His university is the only private degree-giving university in the UK. (Nothing against private universities in countries where they are an integral part of the system; but Buckingham was founded in the 1970s by people who followed the emergent Thatcherite free-market ideolology, and the higher people in management there still tend to be of the type.) Prominent lecturers there include Chris Woodhead,the hardline right-winger on education who essentially introduced and enforced the British equivalent of NCLB.

I did not know that he was also a raving sexist, but it makes sense.

[redqueen]

77. How utterly unsurprising...

But how absolutely wonderful to see that you recognize that it is sexism. :)

[Orsino]

14. Is his cave air-conditioned? n/t

[girl gone mad]

16. Wow.

If I had classes with this douchebag, I would drop them after reading this. How fucking creepy would it be to know your gross old professor was macking on you during lectures?

[seabeyond]

20. like that boss that leers, and is vile and crude.... daily knowing what pervert is thinking

fuckin asshole and pathetic person

[Vickers]

17. Not where I work.

:spank::spank::spank::spank::spank:

[shadowknows69]

21. So much for the concept of higher education.

Apparently the only thing getting higher is the tentpole in professor's pants.

[Le Taz Hot]

24. There are no words . . .

Edit to add: :grr: :nuke:

[rurallib]

25. Well considering the discourse these days, I guess I am not surprised

that some toad thinks we all are delighted with his personal porn fantasy.
After his next lecture I hope some "perk" introduces herself with a kick to his crotch.

[shadowknows69]

30. Well Said.

:rofl:

[Mari333]

50. amen!

[Captain Hilts]

36. Empowered men like to treat women like prizes or cattle. Welcome to the post-sexist world. nt

[rug]

41. His lame tittering 16th century allusions are almost as bad as his drooling.

[Mari333]

49. I remember idiots like this moron when I was in college

I always had a HUGE EGO when I was a brilliant young student. I also knew what idiots were, early on. They stopped fantasizing the minute I opened my mouth and told them off if they even hinted at a sexist remark.
That was back when feminism was just beginning, the early 70s. CREEPS is all they are. scum.
Women students are there to learn. I hope this idiot gets the boot.

[seabeyond]

51. CREEPS is all they are. scum.

yes.

and go figure. women seem to be more bothered than some of these clueless males. i guess it is those of us that have been in a situation with these assholes know their intent, know their pathetic self and know what an insult they are.

[Mari333]

53. I think a lot of guys think women like being treated like shit

perhaps they would think differently if it was their sister or their daughter being subjected to this kind of harassment.
I hated it when I was young..It relegates a woman to being a usage, an object, a nothing. I remember those days, I punched a few guys out on the streets. I also remember the profs and , while most of them were decent chaps who respected my (absolutely brilliant) mind, some of them made statements that I immediately countered by throwing a textbook at their heads.
I didnt take that shit back then, I dont take it in any form now.

[seabeyond]

54. yup. nt

[AngryAmish]

120. Same here- in the 80s

Diseased, dirty, hippie wastoids who thought the student population existed solely as persons they could drug and sexually abuse.

[Kalyke]

55. Lying, egotistical, sexist, irresponsible PIG.

Kealey should be fired and not allowed to work around women until he no longr sees them as objects.

I'd perk my foot up his ass.

[marshall]

58. In the political realm it's the same for interns and pages

Although it's not restricted to the female gender.

[aikoaiko]

62. In a way, it is good that he speaks openly about this issue.

On one hand, its only natural for professors (whether they be male or female) to be attracted to their young, beautiful, intelligent, thoughtful, talented, and/or eager to learn students. Notice the and/or -- any one feature or combination can be attractive. It can be a "perk" to work with someone you find attractive.

But I find his definition of "normal girls" to be simpleminded, his suggestion to fantasize about students while have sex with wives to be creepy, and to have sexual relationships with students that you evaluate to be unethical (i.e., conflict of interest).

It's good that he speaks his mind because it allows us to confront over the line behavior.

[seabeyond]

63. there is a difference between seeing attractive and sexualizing. it use to be

not a tough concept for our adult world to understand and respect. today, the adult world plays in youths sexuality as if it is their own. there is no bold line for us.

[redqueen]

78. "there is a difference between seeing attractive and sexualizing"

THANK YOU!

It's really sad and somewhat distressing that so many seem so unaware of this concept. :(

[aikoaiko]

94. I think the line can be blurry when sexual attraction is involved, but the line is

clearly crossed when it impacts the scholarly pursuits of the students (or the professor, too). Professors have professional obligations to not conduct themselves in a way that could negatively impact their student's education. But feelings are feelings and they can be difficult to manage. The professor in the OP isn't even trying.

[seabeyond]

96. fuckin 50 yr old adult male cant control self with a bunch of kids.

just enough

all of us can sexualize anyone. it is in the mind. all of us can control it too

[aikoaiko]

109. I agree.

[Kalyke]

64. I, for one, hope every female student he has in class asks for a transfer

this morning.

[Mari333]

67. THAT would be a perk for the female students, to leave his class for good

The thought of that creep shooting a miserly wad in his pants whilst they are sitting in his classroom not only PAYING for higher education, but expecting to be treated with respect and consideration , you would think every woman on that campus would string him up on the nearest tree. His 'wife', god help the poor woman, should join them.

[Odin2005]

65. The pathetic-ness, IT BURNS!!!

Human Beings are a "PERK"? This misogynist needs to STFU. :puke:

[alarimer]

66. What a pig.

The vice chancellor, that is.

THIS is the type of sexist bullshit women STILL have to endure.

[Barack_America]

68. Sounds like he and Larry Summers see eye-to-eye.

:puke:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

108. That strikes me as more than a little unfair to Summers. N.T.

[Fading Captain]

69. This happens on every campus

And it's not just male profs with female students.

We had a comm studies prof who was notorious for one-night stands with her students.

And I bet the same is true of gays, lesbians etc.

[Mari333]

70. Okay READ THIS...another report from Kealey and why his 'baldness' attracts young women

this is creep fantasy at its worst

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article6410064.ece

[Iggo]

71. I'm sure it happens. Consenting adults, and all that.

But PERKS? Seriously?

That's fucking gross.

[seabeyond]

72. he might as well where a polyester shirt, unbutton to man boobs with three gold chains

:)

[Iggo]

79. Exactly.

And sprinkle in a "Hey, foxy lady!" here and there.

Ew. *shiver*

[AspenRose]

93. "FOXES!"

Pathetic!

[GodlyDemocrat]

76. A professor/TA cannot consent with a current student, for issues concerning academic integrity

Quid pro quo? The appearance of trading grades for sexual favors is bound to be there and reduces the integrity of the school.

[Hippo_Tron]

87. According to the law they can, whether it violates the academic institution's rules is another story

[GodlyDemocrat]

75. NOT cool

Even if you are of the same age, let's say as a TA and a student, you cannot date. The appearance of impropriety is too great.

[WonderGrunion]

80. When i worked in a mall kiosk selling cell phones

I considered looking at the skimpily dressed women in the summer time a "job benefit".

[Mari333]

81. then I am sure you wont mind it if your daughter's teacher in college

who is being paid to treat your daughter with the utmost respect and civility, who is being paid to teach your daughter , who is being paid to recognize your daughter's academic achievements and regard her as a brilliant and incredibly gifted human being, will, instead, make snarky comments about how much he wants to fuck your daughter.

[WonderGrunion]

82. Your response vastly overestimates the dignity

Of both men and college professors.

[seabeyond]

83. so you are saying, .... this is all that you men are. and that women think more of men, than men

think of themselves.

and this is somethng that you are proud of?

or you have a chip and your way to jab at female cause you dont feel like a man and the only way is if you lessen female.

whichever, it is shriveled dick syndrome.

so, when women on du lack respect for men, instead of them whining about the disrespect, they should embrace it, cause after all that is who they are.

and do tell

is this ALL men.

[1percenter]

92. Biology and all that

Men are hard wired to appreciate attractive, "fertile" looking women. It furthers the survival of the species. One can consider this a baser instinct, one that can be essentially repressed in the name of social goals, including the education and respect of woman. I don't think one can argue that it is not there at all, though; or, further, that its existence is wrong.

[seabeyond]

95. eeew, just vomitted in mouth. k. boys will be boy, cant help self, biology, caveman.....

yada yada yada

no control, thinking with little head, boobs OMG boobs

mommy

[1percenter]

97. Boobs are good

Just as women can't help but have a period when they reach puberty, men can't help but sexualize and objectify women when they reach puberty. It's a testosterone hurricane from 13 to 26 or so. It's not real pleasant to go through, but there must be a biological imperative directing it, right? After 26 or so, I think for most guys, it settles down quite a bit - I know it did for me. Believe me, as the father of a 7 yo girl I wish it were different! But, alas, nature will out.

[seabeyond]

98. talking two different things. this is a fuckin 50+ GROWN ADULT male that allows

himself to do this. it is a controlling form of male sexualizing in a position that does not belong. if he is so fuckin immature, then he should not have a job where he has greater responsibilities than his own fantasies, that he create, he allows.

you are talking youthful sexuality which is the kids journey to play in, both genders.

this grown man is playing in youths sexual world and he simply does not belong. he. is. pathetic.

[1percenter]

99. Agreed.nt.

[Odin2005]

119. Some of us guys are NOT perverted pigs like you.

Physical attraction IS perfectly normal, it's the thinking of young women as "perks of the job" that is crap.

[WildEyedLiberal]

154. "Hard wired"

Oh, shut the fuck up with this "hard wired" bullshit already. People are hardwired to commit acts of savage violence in order to secure food and territory for themselves, too - and, amazingly, most people have managed to evolve beyond those caveman instincts. But yet "men" just can't seem to escape their primitive caveman biology.

Nothing pisses me off more than when junk science is used to justify misogyny.

[Confusious]

161. HAH!

"people have managed to evolve beyond those caveman instincts"

That's a good one! People are people, whether 100 years ago, or a thousand.

"People are hardwired to commit acts of savage violence in order to secure food and territory for themselves"

That's junk science.

If we were, how did civilization ever start? With your theory, people would have killed each other the first time they met. (We're hardwired for violence)

[WonderGrunion]

101. It's not ALL that we are

That's a vast oversimplification of things. But when it comes to how men look at someone they are sexually attracted towards, we are pretty simple. It's not a point of pride, simply an acceptance of fact.

I don't have a chip nor do I think you don't have a right to get disgusted by it (or for that matter anything at all you wanted to be disgusted at).

Calling it "shriveled dick syndrome" is just being insulting. At least we're trying to be complimentary when we are thinking, "Mmmmmm, boobs"

Thank you for disrespecting me and all men as men.

P.S. Yes, it's all men that may find you in any way sexually attractive.

[Mari333]

84. My sons would disagree with you

there are some wonderful men out there, who have integrity beyond measure. My late husband was also a humane and delightful man with a wise countenance , who treated all people with respect, women and men.

[WonderGrunion]

100. I am pretty sure that at some point, your delightfully humane late husband

looked at you and thought to himself, "Mmmmmmm, boobs"

And your sons probably have done the same to some women too. (assuming they aren't gay, then they would have done the same to some guy)

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WonderGrunion]

144. I'm pretty sure you've told me that before

The "little man" part is new though.

[Kievan Rus]

103. More man-hatred

Bigoted statements = fail.

[petronius]

174. When did this become part of the job description?

"being paid to treat your daughter with the utmost respect and civility, ... being paid to recognize your daughter's academic achievements and regard her as a brilliant and incredibly gifted human being"

:rofl:

[msanthrope]

170. But then did you go home to your wife and have sex with her

while thinking of these "job benefits" thus objectifying all women you find sexually attractive?

Or does Mrs. Hand not care?

[BlooInBloo]

85. Ohnoes. Boys like looking at girls. (Straight boys do at any rate.)

Sure, there's a difference between being a boorish jackass versus not, but that's the basic kernel this boils down to.

EDIT: And yah, it's shitty that some of us never quite grow out of the boorish jackass stage.

[seabeyond]

86. never quite grow out of the boorish jackass ... then dont whine when women

see you as a boorish jackass. wink.

[BlooInBloo]

89. I'm sure you'll let me know if I ever do.

[seabeyond]

91. smilin huge here.

yup.

lol

[Romulox]

106. I'm always astonished by how many women become outraged at the basic facts of male sexuality.

:shrug:

[Mari333]

117. So I suppose you dont mind if Your Daughter's college professor asks you if he can fuck her?

just wonderin.

[Romulox]

127. I didn't read anything like that in the OP.

:shrug:

[WonderGrunion]

147. There wasn't anything like that in the OP

He said "Look, but don't touch". At no point did he say "Tell the young lasses you want to bend them over the lecture podium". That part is simply projection on the part of his vocal critics.

[alarimer]

137. No, we are offended by these fucking pigs using that fact as an excuse to be pigs.

For one thing it is gross to even talk about students as "perks". A lecherous 50 year old professor leering at much younger women is, in fact, disgusting.

It's the "I can't help it, I am just a man" excuse that fucking pisses me off the most.

Yes you guys most certainly can help it. Those who choose not to are fucking pigs and deserve, at minimum, to be slapped in the face. Or a well-placed knee to the groin.

[Romulox]

145. I'm not sure what 'it' is in this context, nor why any excuse is needed.

"Yes you guys most certainly can help it. Those who choose not to are fucking pigs and deserve, at minimum, to be slapped in the face. Or a well-placed knee to the groin."

What exactly is the crime over which you are threatening assault? I'm really not sure. :shrug:

[Gwendolyn]

107. He kind of looks like Alan Arkin in that pic.

Let's see:

Some academic makes provocative comments while being interviewed for an article about lust on campus. NO! That's SHOCKING!!! How outré!!!

This academic claims that some women have mad crushes on their profs and convey those feelings through a variety of methods. NO!!! That's NEVER happened. Impossible!!! SHOCKING!!! I'm FLOORED!

He also claims that some profs notice their attractive students and may be tempted to succumb to their desires. NO!!! That's NEVER happened. Impossible!!! SHOCKING!!! I'm FLOORED!

He says the best thing to do is look but don't touch! WOW! What TERRIBLE advice! I'm FLOORED!

Casaubon to her Dorothea indeed, LOL.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

156. Well, if he looked like Robert Redford......

...circa 1974, leaning back in his chair while dazzling the class with passages from Shelley or Keates, there wouldn't be a problem, would there?

[Regret My New Name]

110. This is why I stick my tongue out and sneer at all attractive women I see.

[Mari333]

118. if this were a professor stating that he thinks all black people are perks

in his class, for the white professors to fantasize about being slaves, there would be nothing but outrage on here

unfortunately, a lot of Dems still think of women as chattel, and not as human beings.

pretty unenlightened.

[Gwendolyn]

123. Really bad analogy.

What I'm getting from his actual words, not the ones the writer put in his mouth, is that every year, there's the small crop of "abnormal" women who fawn, drool and throw themselves at their profs. For whatever reason. He goes on to say that eventually they'll realize what schlubs their profs are, hence the literary comparisons to Casaubon to his Dorothea... but in the meantime you can look and enjoy, but not touch. Their fawning attractiveness is a perk. I'd say it would be, if I were in that position, as long as they didn't end up being insane stalkers. I imagine there are some female profs who enjoy some of the attention they get from fawning male students as well. We're human.

At my university, many profs were rumpled grumps with ear hair. The ones that were exceptionally good looking and young were considered by female students as a "perk." I now work out at a gym that's plastered wall to wall with amazing looking men. They're a definite "perk." Not even close to slave comparisons.

[Mari333]

124. and I was responding to the oafs on this board

who are all justifying their own need to dehumanize women and label them as things vis a vis their own personal take on this prof. Ive seen it before on DU. Justifying whatever neurotransmitters that they have been conditioned with to gaze on women, and calling it 'nature'. without ever questioning themselves, of course.
i.e., they decry racism as a learned behaviour, but think sexism is 'nature'.

[redqueen]

130. Best post in the thread.

:applause:

[Gwendolyn]

131. To be honest, I'm not seeing a lot of that either. Just a lot of reading comprehension probs.

Also, people don't seem to understand that this man is a vice-chancellor, not a working prof, so he's mostly paying a lot of bills from an admin building, not luring young women to the university watering hole to ply her with red box-wine and his sensitive bleating on Donne's love poems.

But it's a hot issue so I can see where people don't bother reading and just get right into the fray.

[BlooInBloo]

135. You're an astonishingly reasonable person...

Why are you here? :P

[Gwendolyn]

139. I could ask the same of you!

:)


I have work avoidance issues mostly. It's a chronic condition.

[BlooInBloo]

153. Aw... shucks (kicks pebble)

I was avoiding work, and then avoiding the video game I was playing. :)

[redqueen]

136. There are at least nine individual DUers claiming this is no big deal.

He refers to students as "perks"... things... but it's no big deal.

You may not consider that "justifying"... but it is not invisible, and it's not fucking cool.

[Gwendolyn]

140. My perception may be wrong...

but seems like whenever a thread like this pops up, 1-3 of the same people take over immediately, usually in a very hostile way, so no one can really get a word in edgewise and the discussion devolves very quickly into "men suck, no you women suck, no you, no you, fuck OFF!" That's what seems to have driven this thread off track as well. It's pointless to post anything thoughtful.

[redqueen]

149. Ever consider the reason?

I'm not saying the overreaction is good or right... but did you ever wonder why it happens?

Often extreme emotional reactions occur when there are issues involved.

How ubiquitous do you think sexual trauma is for women? Do you think that might explain overreaction to stories like this? I think it would.

And regardless, overreaction by a few on either side does not 'justify' dismissing the absolute wrongness of what this man said.

We are far too ready to dismiss these things, and the effect this 'women are things' mindset has on society (yes, society) as a whole is extremely toxic.

[Gwendolyn]

152. Yes, I have a good idea of why people drag the same stuff over and over into threads.

I'm not sure at all that the few men who responded in this thread were "justifying" the "women are things" mindset. That's a matter of opinion I guess.

In any event, the academic quoted in the OP is referring to those women who fawn over their professors in the romantic cliched way. I believe these women objectify their professors as much as the reverse might be true. The whole point of having a relationship with one's prof is conquering the person in power and thus obtaining power for oneself. That or of pleasing a father (mother) figure. That's objectification as much as wanting a young woman (man) around to boost the ego.

There is a lot to slam in what this guy wrote, but most people responding here don't even know who he is, what he does, or what his article referred to. They can't figure out that he said relationships between undergrads and profs are morally wrong and should be avoided. If people are so wound up because of their own issues, then, as I said earlier, it's understandable they blather away without taking the time to figure out what they're going on about.

[girl gone mad]

158. No, not really.

"the academic quoted in the OP is referring to those women who fawn over their professors in the romantic cliched way."

No.

He quite clearly says that any attractive female student who expresses admiration or seeks help with an assignment has sexual motivations at heart. That's sexist bullshit that doesn't belong in a publication devoted to advising educators. Many times in college, I sought the council, advice, guidance of my professors. Never once did I feel the least bit of sexual desire for any of them. Spreading this sick, wrong notion around will do nothing but cause female students to think twice before approaching male faculty members.

And are you seriously implying that it's common for young women to fantasize about their aging college professors? Because I've never met a girl who admitted to that on any level. Young women want to sleep with their peers. Maybe a younger professor would attract interest, but I find it almost impossible to imagine that the man in this story is turning anyone in his class on.

[Gwendolyn]

163. It was worded badly and in a deliberately provocative way...

but I don't think he was referring to the average woman who seeks guidance from her male profs. He talks about "the one" every semester who differs from the others. Read that paragraph again. He clearly states that most women prefer males of their own age, and then intimates that there is a type of student who either openly desires, or more subtly offers, the possibility of a teacher/student relationship. That's what I got from the literary comparisons. And the article is about lust after all.

And while you may not know such women, they do exist. Sexual attraction begins in the mind and doesn't necessarily require a beautiful, youthful body. Doddering artists, writers, actors often find young devotees who are enamored of the aura the art, intellect, prestige exudes. Georgia O'Keefe comes to mind instantly as a female example of such a relationship. I've seen it, and I myself dated a prof 15 years my senior, although I was no longer his student. Several poet/writer friends teach to make ends meet, and it's unusual to find them at their favorite haunts without the posse of admirers hanging around... sickening, really. Those are just my anecdotal experiences, but it's far from unusual.

I don't think the man in this story really has an opportunity to turn anyone on, since his current gig is running the school, not lecturing. He wasn't necessarily speaking of his own quotidian experience, but rather admonishing colleagues. Maybe he was recalling memories from a more youthful, attractive age. And I wasn't necessarily defending his words... the stringfellow's comment is even worse to me, just shaking my head at the level of discussion on this thread.

[redqueen]

162. I see. So when men 'drag' the same sexist comments into threads...

such as agreeing with this POS that women are 'things'... that's just fine.

But when women react badly to it, that's bad.

Is that how you see it?


And I wonder why you did that elaborate little tapdance around the fact that he referred to women as 'perks'. Do you just not think it's wrong? Do you think it's no big deal?

[Gwendolyn]

167. As I said, I believe the comments from men were reactions to rather childish posts...

and it spiraled downwards from there. Don't know what else you want me to say.

Elaborate tap dance? I think both men and women may look at attractive students/teachers/employees/neighbors/whatever, as perks. My female colleagues talk about our office "perks" all the time. Some people don't notice, others do, and it brightens their day. I think he said a basic truth out loud and it doesn't bother me personally at all.

Should he have said it? I don't know. As I posted elsewhere, it was the Stringfellow's comment that I thought went too far.

[redqueen]

168. I don't want you to say anything. I'm just curious

about why it seems so easy for you to dismiss the piggery demonstrated by men, while at the same time being so disdainful of women who act piggish. Seems like there's a double standard there, and I don't understand it, that's all.

As for the "look but don't touch"... why is that disturbing? Seems to me like that's reasonable advice. Sad that he thinks so many grown men would need it that he'd want to say it in an article, but there you go.

[Gwendolyn]

171. I'm starting to not follow...

I don't think "look but don't touch" is disturbing. It is sound advice and I basically said that in my first post. I think it bears repeating often because of human nature. There will always be adoring students (male or female) who want to have relationships with their profs, and there will always be profs who either succumb or actively take advantage. I think everything said in the article is truth (except the Stringfellow's thing). The interesting question for me is whether it should have been said aloud.

I'm not dismissing piggery. Most of the comments by men in this thread referred back to the "look but don't touch" comment, or made some reference to what I said in the paragraph above. That doesn't constitute piggery to me. The two deleted comments in this thread were made by women and were basically fuck you's to anyone who didn't outright post that this guy is a douche. There are a couple of guys who take the same approach, which is why I didn't specifically mention women in my post.

I think I've decided that while most of the article's content is truth, it probably shouldn't have been said aloud, even in humor, as the tone was dipped in arrogance, the propensity for misunderstanding is too great... and that hurts women.

[Big Blue Marble]

134. OMG!

You just nailed it. Thank you for this brilliant and succinct response to these "oafs" who repeat
this sexism thread upon thread.

[alarimer]

138. Maybe they would rethink their behavior if more women slapped the lechs.

I think women are often too "nice". We simply take the abuse or harassment and walk away, when what we ought to do is call them on their stares, etc. Unwelcome sexual advances deserve more than a few words, of course.

[WonderGrunion]

146. Assault is a crime.

Glad to see the over reaction continues into the evening. The professor never advocates "sexual advances". He says clearly "look but don't touch". Looking at an attractive woman and thinking, "Mmmmmm, boobs", is not the equivalent to rape no matter how uncomfortable being ogled makes you feel.

[WildEyedLiberal]

172. You seem to not give a shit about the power dynamic here

A 50 year old skeeze looking at an 18 year old and thinking "Mmmmm boobs" when it's his JOB to take her seriously as a student and play an advisory role in her life is fucking disgusting. Do you think it's okay for high school teachers to ogle their 15 and 16 year old students and think "Mmmmmm boobs"? Or is it just all magically acceptable and okay the millisecond a girl turns 18 - regardless of her status in relation to the ogler (ie, student and teacher). What about high school students who turn 18? They're suddenly fair game for all the old nasty leches?

The fact that you do not give half a shit about men in authority positions making young women feel uncomfortable says volumes about you.

[WonderGrunion]

177. Based on recent news reports, you have the genders reversed

for the high school teacher scenario. I think very few professors take ANY of their students seriously regardless of gender. I came to that judgment my freshman year of college when the Physics dean was teaching a Physics 101 class and one of the jocks in the class asked a question about how he was supposed to know when to use different vector equations. The dean responded "You go to high school".

Professors think ALL of their students are objects. The only difference for females is that some of the male professors look at them as pretty objects.

[WonderGrunion]

150. I would take that complaint more seriously if you hadn't written this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=335x1043

"A toast to brazen hussies" doesn't objectify and sexualize women?

[Evoman]

122. The best perk is sabbaticals. Man, what I wouldn't give to have sabbaticals at my job.

[ThePantaloon.com]

125. Agree

Sabbaticals. And health insurance...

[WonderGrunion]

151. Mmmmmmmmmm, Sabbaticals

I mean, "Mmmmmmmmmm Boobies". Don't want to endanger anyone's misandrist assumptions here.

[omega minimo]

126. Is there a thread in the Lounge

where you announced your foray into GD? :popcorn: swarmhole, perhaps?


Link please :hi:

[flvegan]

128. HOT damn! I knew this thread wouldn't disappoint!

This :popcorn: is making me thirsty.

[dolphindance]

132. If you work hard to get a PHd, then you deserve some perks.

Guys who aren't cassnovas have to get their play from somewhere. Women just don't understand what it is like to be horny all the time.

[ccharles000]

143. you are joking right.

[BuelahWitch]

148. And men don't understand what it's like to be leered at

constantly by pigs like this. Men who won't look you in the eye when they're talking to you because they're so busy staring at your chest. It's disgusting.

[redqueen]

178. You reminded me of a conversation I had with a psychology student.

He was doing his residency for his doctorate, and he told me about an incident where a patient was coming on to him. He told me how uncomfortable it made him, when she'd say things that suggested that she was sexually attracted to him.

I told him, "well now you know how most women feel." He was floored. He said he'd never thought about it that way. Then it was my turn to be floored. I never knew empathy was so elusive.

[Mari333]

182. +1

Empathy is the key here. you hit it on the head.
Plus, the justification made by soooo many people on here to be apologists for this kind of behaviour. because, if they question it, than, they have to question themselves, and thats not a mirror a lot of guys want to look into.
They merely brush it off as 'nature'. To harass women, to verbally assault them on the street, to rape them, attack them, and use them as places to jagoff is 'nature'.
No, its learned behaviour. Just as racism is learned behaviour.

[redqueen]

184. Once they have daughters though, it seems like some actually

develop some empathy.

And yes, it's obviously learned behavior. Conditioning. But apparently some think it's fun to think of women like objects, so few want to question the conditioning.

[T_i_B]

157. Badly worded

I think he was trying to say that lecturers should "look but don't touch", i.e don't get into relationships with students.

The trouble is it was worded very badly. You can't really get away with putting it like that anywhere outside of a pub where women don't go in very often.

[1]

160. some of us have to work real hard to accomplish much. some of us, not so...

it is what it is.

[BoneDaddy]

164. What a tool

he sounds in love with himself.

[PM Martin]

173. No offense (I think), the average University Professor

is nothing to look at.

[denem]

179. 'Look but don't touch' = DADT

[Political Heretic]

180. The indelicacy of his statements is what's offensive,not his basic observations about male sexuality

...your not supposed to talk about the basic male sex drive, because its not socially not cool, and relationally its an impulse that needs to be balanced and tempered with a sense of interpersonal and social responsibility.

But the basic drive is the same, whether you talk about it or not.