Can someone explain the "not a democracy" meme?

[Narkos]

I have a few libertarian friends who constantly use this phrase. They also believe we need to "end the fed". Sort of Alex Jones types. What's with this hair splitting with republic vs democracy meme? What are they really getting at?

[datasuspect]

1. well, you must understand that a libertarian is just a conservative with no intestinal fortitude

and many right wingers share the fundamentalist belief in "christian name-magic."

it has to do with the idea of speaking things into existence. it goes back to the roots of many world religions, but the idea is prominent in fundamentalist christianity.

essentially, they believe if they say something enough, it makes it true.

[Narkos]

8. The libertarians, I have noticed, seem to have an almost idoltarous

faith in laissez faire and "The Constitution". It's a form of mental illness I'd really like to understand. Their lingo and their "incantations" are bewildering to me, and I just want to know what they really want.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

18. What they want is MONEY, and when they have it, they act like

Montgomery Burns and are ready to release the hounds on anyone who suggests that they're greedy, selfish brats.

[GoCubsGo]

43. Ain't that the truth!!

We have one of these whackos that comments on my local fish wrap's web site multiple times a day. He goes by "The Baron", and he claims that everyone who is bad-off is there because of their own "bad decisions." They think that their alleged wealth was gained by their own "hard work" and nothing else. Can't afford health insurance? "It's all your fault because you aren't educated and made bad decisions. People who require government help are 'parasites'." He's all "I got mine. Screw you." Never mind that his education was likely paid for or subsidized by the government, or that his business succeeded because of numerous government perks and tax breaks. They are worse parasites than those they accuse of being parasites.

[Ian David]

2. Just tell them to look-up "Republic" on Wikipedia.

Republic = "Representative Democracy."


And then tell them to get the fuck off our Socialist internet.

[Narkos]

3. LOL!! Will do.

[SoCalNative]

4. Well, because we are not a TRUE direct democracy

but rather a representative republic. In a true direct democracy there would be no middlemen (senators and congressmen) representing the "will" of the people.

[BlooInBloo]

5. I don't know who Alex Jones is, but likely they have in mind so-called "direct democracy"...

According to which literally everybody votes on literally everything.

Unless they make "exceptions", of course.

It's quite obviously a thoroughly idiotic way to go about the business of governing.

[Narkos]

6. They use an absurdly narrow definition of democracy, but I don't

understand what the point is.

[BlooInBloo]

7. Defining things so narrowly allows them syntactic justification for whining....

And shallow syntax is about all most Americans know enough to care about.

[Xicano]

19. Since they love early Americans like Thomas Paine

Why don't they read what Thomas Paine had to say about "direct democracy" in "Common Sense"?

[BlooInBloo]

20. Hm... I haven't read that one. I assume he says something to the effect of...

"that's fucking stupid", albeit with more semi-obvious explanation and old-school language?

[Xicano]

23. Hi BlooInBloo. Here's an excerpt from Thomas Paine's "Common Sense"

Thus necessity, like a gravitating power, would soon form our newly arrived emigrants into society, the reciprocal blessings of which would supersede, and render the obligations of law and government unnecessary while they remained perfectly just to each other; but as nothing but Heaven is impregnable to vice, it will unavoidably happen that in proportion as they surmount the first difficulties of emigration, which bound them together in a common cause, they will begin to relax in their duty and attachment to each other: and this remissness will point out the necessity of establishing some form of government to supply the defect of moral virtue.

Some convenient tree will afford them a State House, under the branches of which the whole Colony may assemble to deliberate on public matters. It is more than probable that their first laws will have the title only of Regulations and be enforced by no other penalty than public disesteem. In this first parliament every man by natural right will have a seat.

But as the Colony encreases, the public concerns will encrease likewise, and the distance at which the members may be separated, will render it too inconvenient for all of them to meet on every occasion as at first, when their number was small, their habitations near, and the public concerns few and trifling. This will point out the convenience of their consenting to leave the legislative part to be managed by a select number chosen from the whole body, who are supposed to have the same concerns at stake which those have who appointed them, and who will act in the same manner as the whole body would act were they present. If the colony continue encreasing, it will become necessary to augment the number of representatives, and that the interest of every part of the colony may be attended to, it will be found best to divide the whole into convenient parts, each part sending its proper number: and that the ELECTED might never form to themselves an interest separate from the ELECTORS, prudence will point out the propriety of having elections often: because as the ELECTED might by that means return and mix again with the general body of the ELECTORS in a few months, their fidelity to the public will be secured by the prudent reflection of not making a rod for themselves. And as this frequent interchange will establish a common interest with every part of the community, they will mutually and naturally support each other, and on this, (not on the unmeaning name of king,) depends the STRENGTH OF GOVERNMENT, AND THE HAPPINESS OF THE GOVERNED


http://www.ushistory.org/paine/commonsense/sense2.htm

[BlooInBloo]

29. Heh - a transcendental deduction of representative democracy....

:rofl:

But yah, feasibility is the obvious issue. Thanks for the excerpt!

[lysosome]

30. Yeah, see, the funny thing is that Glen Beck named his book after this guy's.

But goes off on how important religion is and should be in government.

Mingling religion with politics may be disavowed and reprobated by every inhabitant of America. - Thomas Payne.

Thomas Payne was one of the most famous atheists of his day.

[burning rain]

34. Not an atheist, but a deist.

As such he believed in a creator god who does not intervene or take an interest in human affairs, and to whom there's no sense in praying. His great Age of Reason is a fierce attack on revealed religion in general and Christianity in particular.

[lysosome]

46. If I recall from reading it in high school, Common Sense had a bit ...

Expressing his atheism. It was political at the time because of the "divine right of kings" argument. A similar argument is made by the well off today. "The wealthy have money because they are favored by god and virtuous" or some such shit.

At any rate, a far cry from where Beck wanted to take it.

[Narkos]

22. Interestimg tid bit I found on Paine

http://tinyurl.com/yewsvmx

[armyowalgreens]

33. Alex Jones is the psycho leader of the NWO movement.

[Xicano]

47. Oh yes, he's very psychotic.

and takes making a mountain out of a molehill to astronomical heights. He is quite a nutcase indeed.

:crazy:

[KT2000]

9. I don't know what their thinking is

A woman from China once told me she has studied world governments and the one that really does not make sense is the democracy/capitalism model. If you think about it they can only coexist through a kind of compromise. I think the libertarians are trying to find a fundamentalist form of democracy where it just cannot exist.

[Narkos]

15. But most of them rail against "rule of the mob" ie.direct democracy

but they seem so passionate about making the distinction, I just don't understand it. The only theory I can come up with is that they secretly harbor a desire to disenfranchise what they refer to as the "sheeple", but I really don't know.

[Rex]

10. Your friends learned something and now love to say how

we are a 'republic and not a democracy', yes?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

14. I wonder which media idiot invented that phrase

Because it's stupid and wrong.

[Rex]

28. I don't know, my guess would be Rush or Beck.

They are the Kings of Wrong.

[Narkos]

16. I've heard it mentioned a lot over the years from many

right wingers, and they can't explain to me why they are so passionate about making this silly semantic distinction.

[Rex]

26. Deep in the Heart of Texas here

and to this day, not ONE SINGLE Repuke can explain (correctly) the difference. Tell them the opposite of a federal republic is a social democracy. See what happens. Make sure they understand the use of the word 'social' does not mean communism. Maybe explain to them the relevance between the word social and society. Go slow. Texas grows some of the worst Repukes ever to serve IMO.

[anonymous171]

11. Democracy implies some amount of egalitarianism.

Libertarians hate that shit.

[immoderate]

12. It's what you said, splitting hairs.

Remember, most arguments are about the meaning of words. They are thinking "majority rules" and you are all "consent of the governed." Since they both work, it makes for good arguments.

Republic gets the same treatment. Republics were rare at the time of the revolution. Republic means representative government. But are the representatives beholden to the people, or are they an elite group of decision makers with more (or less) idealistic motivation?

Makes for good arguments. :)

--imm

[Lydia Leftcoast]

13. They never had the ninth grade civics class that I took in. In fact, it looks as if none of you have

The strict definition of a republic is a country not ruled by a monarch. That's why Iceland and Finland are republics, but Norway, Sweden, and Denmark are not.

The UK is not a republic, but Ireland is. France is a republic, but Belgium is not. Germany is a republic, but the Netherlands is not. South Korea and Taiwan are republics, but Japan is not.

Yet all the countries I have mentioned are indirect democracies.

The two categories are not mutually exclusive.

The righties use the "this is a republic not a democracy" meme to excuse their guys' undemocratic excesses. The proper response to those pseudo-intellectuals is, "So if we're a republic, not a democracy, this means that we're like China or Burma or Iran?"

Because yes, since China, Burma, and Iran are not ruled by hereditary royal families, they can legitimately call themselves republics.

[Narkos]

17. Good point. I'm getting a clearer picture. n/t

[immoderate]

21. You're right, and I stand corrected.

I defined republic as representative government just above. But you reminded me that a dictator could just as well command a republic. I implied it could also be a plutocracy, but your definition is quite correct.

--imm

[hansberrym]

24. It is more than a play on words, it goes to whether we can simply vote ourselves

A share of our neighbor's wealth. It goes to the rights of the minority and the proper limits of majority rule(constitutionalism) one would think this is something that most here would embrace.



http://biotech.law.lsu.edu/Books/federlist/federa10.htm
A rage for paper money? A rage for the abolition of debts? The discussion is as relevant today as it was 1788.


"End the Fed" refers to getting rid of fiat currency, which is paper money with no backing(no gold or silver equivalent)

[booley]

25. Democracy sounds like Democrat

Republic Sounds like Republican.

OF course the US is BOTH a Republic and a Democracy.

We don't have a monarch and we VOTE for our leaders who are(at least in theory) accountable to us, the voters.

But that's besides the point. The meme is meant to work subconsciously, not logically.

[BuyingThyme]

27. Democracy sounds a lot like Democrat.

It confuses them, throws them for a loop.

[Kievan Rus]

31. Libertarians are the conservative movement without social conservatives

Colloquially referred to as "conservatives that smoke pot."

[armyowalgreens]

32. There are leftist libertarians.

[Treo]

37. A lot of Libertarians are centrists NT

[burning rain]

35. People who peddle that meme are usually obsessed with not wanting to pay taxes.

They hate and fear fellow citizens for supposedly wanting to take their wealth and loaf on the dole.

[Treo]

36. It's a Republic, if you can keep it.

In a straight democracy it's simple majority rule. If 51% of voters say yes it's a done deal. In a republic there are a set of laws limiting government. If 51% of the voters decided tomorrow to suspend the 4th amendment for drug dealers the Constitution would still prohibit it. That's a really simplified version but that's what your Libertarian friends are talking about. I found this video on you tube that explains it very well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DioQooFIcgE

[DRoseDARs]

38. The US is a constitutional republic, its government is a representative democracy and your friends

are clueless.

[OHdem10]

39. I will give it a shot. It is not just libertarians--most Conservative

Republicans.

It goes back to the Founding. We were founded as a Republic.
Our country and people have always had an elitist bend. The elites
rule and the people tend to fall in line. Strong Authoritarian Strain
permeates the country.

That said, our country deliberately rejected the Social Democracy Model.
We got along with France pretty well back then, and Founders considered
that model. Originally, we elected our state representatives and
they elected our national representatives. The point here is our
representatives know what is best for us. There is still in some
states this idea. It is putting your faith in a Congressman or
Senator that they will do what is correct or right. I have heard
members of Congress intimate they will vote for what they believe is
best irregardless of their constituents. You will hear some in Congress
say we are a Republic not a Democracy.

Democracy implies that the Congress Person will vote his constituents
wishes. From time to time, they have to remind us we are a Republic.

Mixed in with this is Liberty vs Equality.

Liberty is the utmost value in our Republic. Liberty applies to
financial and economic dealings. The Individual has the Liberty
to earn and spend his/her own money. Taxation is seen as a form
of coercion. Thus, the mantra: Taxcuts , Taxcuts Taxcuts.
Today as they struggled with health care bill, you heard over
and over. This is interfering with Liberty. Taking from one
group to help another group---Strike against Liberty. These are
Conservative Republicans.

In a Social Democracy equality is held to a higher value than
Finanicial or Economic Liberty. In our Republic Liberty is held
to a higher value than equality. This is why they are not as
concerned with Middle Class and Poor. No one is owed anything
in their philosophy. Taking from one group to give to another
group is anathema. Imposing on their liberty.

Just explaining.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. Your chronology is off, as is the Libertarians' concept of "liberty"

The U.S. Constitution was signed in 1787. At that time, France was still an absolute monarchy, since the storming of the Bastille didn't occur till 1789, and even then, it wasn't certain how the revolution there would play out.

The Libertarians define liberty purely in terms of greed, egotism, and disdain for the larger society. It's the bratty teen-ager's definition of liberty. "I wanna do what I want when I wanna do it and I don't care what happens to anyone else. Taxes are theft, because now I have to settle for a home theater with a 30" screen instead of the 48" screen I wanted. If everyone were as wonderful as I am we wouldn't have poverty (or, as the Pharisee the Biblical parable of the Pharisee and the publican puts it, "Lord, I thank thee that I am not like other men.") I'm not responsible for anyone else, especially those uncool people who wear clothes from WalMart."

Yet do you truly have liberty if you are homeless? If you have to eat whatever charities dish up? If you're stuck in a horrible job because there are no other jobs (the rich having exercised their "liberty" to ship jobs to China)? If you never reach your full potential because you're ground down by poverty, poor schools with administrators who treat you like an inmate rather than a student, and parents who have given up on the system and exercised their "liberty" to become addicted to drugs or alcohol or turn to crime?

FDR's "four freedoms" speech included two that were in the Constitution (freedom of speech and freedom of religion) but also added two others that make Libertarians bristle: freedom from want (i.e. no poverty) and freedom from fear.

Libertarians actually have interesting exceptions to their advocacy of total "liberty": They want to keep the army and police (to suppress the poor when they exercise their liberty to riot or commit crimes) and the courts (to punish anyone who tries to take their money, either through street crime or clever business dealings).

In other words, their liberty is a stacked deck.

[LeftinOH]

41. "...and to the Republic for which it stands.."

[Odin2005]

42. Right-Libertarianism in inherently anti-democratic

Right-Libertards think their right to exploit others was "given by GAWD" and that government's only responsibility is to keep the rabble from "stealing" their wealth. To them "majority rule" is "tyranny". :crazy:

[Echo In Light]

44. The People's Representatives don't actually represent our needs, but corporate power instead

From a review of Chomsky's Failed States:

"Failed States is a disturbingly persuasive indictment of shortcomings that have corroded the fabric of American society to the point where it is threadbare. It tears off the masks of malevolent politicians and scheming corporate pirates whose primary motivation is only greater profitability. It also tends to confirm the suspicions that have been percolating in people's minds as the country has lurched from one scandal to another. Chomsky contends that the trappings of democracy -- free elections, freedom of the press, equal justice, equality of opportunity -- are shibboleths that have been tossed like a deflated football from one administration to the other (both Republican and Democratic) and that manipulative rhetoric has usurped the popular will and hoodwinked the masses. Chomsky's charges are the fodder out of which revolutionary upheaval could grow if the country were not permanently incapable of developing an insurrectionary temperament.

The deeply-embedded corruptions which nullify the nation's politics, warp its religious beliefs, motivate its commercial enterprises, and dehumanize the day-to-day traffic between individuals who look no further than the preservation of their own comfort and well being have de-democratized a nation presumably rooted in democracy. The fact that we condone what the U.S. has become under the present leadership suggests that we are more than a "failed state," we are a damaged human species. That is why we cannot field upright candidates or engage in debates on moral issues without resorting to rancor and bitterness. That is why we draw ourselves into cozy enclaves, insulating our lives from the horrors of the outside world. If the reverence with which we honor our fallen dead in Iraq could be converted into protest against those political evils which persuades to sacrifice the lives of our sons, daughters, and husbands, there might be a way to clamber out of the quagmire. Refusing to do so makes us complicit in the crimes being carried out in our name, although without our consent."

http://www.swans.com/library/art12/cmarow57.html

[Libertas1776]

45. We (The US) are a Democratic Republic

hence composing both elements of Democracy and Republicanism. Republics can be a democracy, but not all Republics are Democratic, I mean, just look at the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The morans hear the term Democracy and they automatically see connotations with the Democratic Party. However, when they hear Republic, they also hear Republican Party, hence Democracy bad, Republic good. Long story short, the stupid is strong in these people.