Capitalism is not democratic

[Autonomy]

because capitalism is an econmic system, and democracy is a poltical system. It's like saying the color blue is not a sport. Well, duh!

How many times through the years have we had to tell the conservatives who say, "Communism/socialism is not democratic" the exact same thing? I remember saying that to blood-drinking conservatives decades ago, but all of a sudden it's the Left who have now forgotten that first lecture of Polisci 101.

We need regulation of the financial industries. We need universal healthcare. But some have a much more ambitious agenda, and they are willing to throw those necessary reforms under the bus in a cynical effort to conflate the need for those reforms with their desire for an already discredited Command Economy system.

Give it up. There's no revolution coming. Change will come through reform or not at all. All this blather about getting rid of capitalism will only serve to ruin any chance at healthcare reform in the short term, and feed the right-wing propaganda about the Left being Loony Communists in the long term. The repubs love this talk about getting rid of capitalism like they loved the Seattle protests in '99.

Why don't you all just get together and have a Nader Voters of 2000 Reunion party instead.

[anonymous171]

1. I just want to fuck with the Capitalists. I don't care about Capitalism. nt

[Autonomy]

2. Hail, Eris!

Discordianism is not dead.

[inthebrain]

3. Socialism is democracy

Have you ever read Freidrech Sorge, Eugene Debs, Emma Goldmann or the writings of Martin Luther King?

[Autonomy]

12. You can surely make a longer list of communist and anarchist

activists than that? No Bakunin or Kropotkin or Marx? At least the ones I listed are actual philosophers, and not merely the activists you named. Not that name-dropping substitutes for an argument.

No, I think I will stick with the overwhelming majority of economists and political philosophers instead of cherry-picking some obscure 19th revolutionaries as my intellectual role-models.

[inthebrain]

17. Socialism is not a one sized fits all idea

Hate to break the news the news to you. They all have different views on doing it. The religionist sects from the 18th and 19th century were very different from the contructionists. EV Debs, who believed farmers should be allowed to keep and own their land was very different from the Shakers.

Oh, and Debs is by far no "obscure 19th CENTURY revolutionary". Obscure is hardly the term I would use to describe him. If you're actually discussing socialism and label him as such you're automaticly disqualified.

Oh, and some of these people I mentioned DISSAGREED with Marx on numerous points. Martin Luther King was probably one of the more reknowned.

Oh, and I don't need "intellectual role models". I do just fine thinking on my own two feet.

[Lagomorph]

4. Deregulating our public infrastucture was stupid...

...especially allowing local monopolies to service providers.

[Autonomy]

5. Agreed.

[MrMickeysMom]

8. It was stupid

... and still is

[MrMickeysMom]

6. Guess you didn't dig what Michael Moore had to say to Bill Maher, eh?

Personally, I'm more encouraged to see Moore's latest movie for several reasons, but one of them is to see if that was the real message of the film- we should shed capitalism... or if the the film actually causes you to consider what is in the best interests of everyone, and put together 2 and 2... that our children are part of that formula.

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. I saw it last weekend

It's fabulous.

[MrMickeysMom]

15. Was the "take home message" to kill capitalism outright?

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. I don't want to spoil it for you

:)

[David__77]

7. Democracy is far from ideal. Socialism is the best option.

Either socialism or capitalism may be democratic of course. But socialism is superior to capitalism.

[anonymous171]

10. Socialism without Democracy would suck. nt

[inthebrain]

11. Well, Republicans don't like that

so you probably shouldn't say it.

[Azathoth]

13. "Democracy is far from ideal." WTF?

I guess it's true that the political spectrum is kind of like a closed loop: the people who travel to the extemes on either side eventually start seeing eye to eye.

[inthebrain]

18. That's not true at all

I doubt Lenin and Mussoulini would ever sit down for a cup of tea.

That's just a stupid talking point meant to discourage people from ACTUALLY THINKING ABOUT ANYTHING!!!

[Azathoth]

20. Lenin and Mussolini disagreed on the details

but they both agreed on the broader idea that the people should not be left to their own devices or allowed to govern themselves. Communism and Fascism (as they have been realized in this world) each approach extreme authoritarianism from different angles.

[Autonomy]

14. It's not

But enjoy the political hinterlands. I hear it gets cold out there. Don't forget to bundle up! I hear Das Kapital makes good kindling.

[David__77]

21. You have all the short-sightedness of a Brezhnevite bureaucrat.

Capitalism of the current US style is just as viable in the long term of Soviet state capitalism was in the 1970s. The hinterlands of today are the mainstream of tomorrow. Crisis breeds new thinking. Qualitative leaps in people's thinking occurs.

[Ozymanithrax]

19. There is no ideal political system...

There is only what works within the context of a culture.

Democratic Republics with a two party system are about as common as hens teeth elsewhere. It works within the Context of US culture because we like the winner take all system. In fact, our two party system works well with capitalism because it fits well with our cultural ideas of successful businessmen (capitalists) and losers (consumers).

Our democracy won't go away and therefor Capitalism is here to stay.

[Selatius]

22. We could make it a little more democratic...by introducing a co-op sector into the US economy.

The short and simple is that the first step is the establishment of some sort of public banking mechanism after a reform of the tax code. The public banking mechanism will serve to provide funds for the start-up of new labor co-ops, to capitalize existing co-ops that may need credit, and to buy out failed or failing firms to be reorganized into new labor co-ops.

A capital assets tax will be levied, ideally replacing all other business taxes, and the revenue generated by the tax will serve as the money the public bank will use to help labor co-ops. Because the public bank does not need to charge interest to generate cash, it is free to offer nothing but grants in its place but with the stipulation that the credit be used for business purposes.

The public banking mechanism will ensure a growing co-op sector of the US economy. In time, it will become large enough that workers will truly have a choice between working collectively together to enjoy the fruits of their labor and selling their labor to a traditional capitalist enterprise. I suspect the co-op sector will eventually grow bigger than the private sector in the long-run.

Positive improvements in the living conditions of workers and of incomes/wealth distribution should be seen in both the co-op sector and private sector of the economy. With a strong co-op sector competing for the same pool of labor that the private sector draws upon, the private sector would be forced into competition with a limited labor pool.

Employee benefits and pay would benefit in an environment of competition for their labor.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

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[Union Yes]

24. Capitalism IS economic fascism.

It's not about competition, it's about using any tactic ethical or not to kill the competition.

Wealth buys power and corrupts.

Wealth fuels tyranny.