What value, truth?

[Atticus]

Have we come to the point where the truth is no better than a lie that is believed? I do not want to accept that premise, but if we confine our consideration to the political arena, it seems to be a valid statement.

At 60, I should be ashamed to admit such idealism, but I keep expecting that those who lie so often and so outrageously to be punished, to pay some price. My parents were hard working blue collar democrats who taught their children that lying was indecent, offensive and irresponsible. "Scratch a liar, find a thief" was among the earlest lessons we were taught.

Lying is not, of course, against the law. That never seemed important before, but today, too many seem to equate legality with morality. If a deed is not illegal, it is "OK". Shame seems to be little more than a quaint antiquity and no longer an impediment to mendacity. Those who, unblinking as serpents, warn of death panels and Kenyan birth certificates and "communist fascism", knowing all these things to be not just untrue, but ridiculous, are invited to repeat and amplify their lies as respected guests on TV talk shows where they are assured they will not be called to account by the polite and smiling host.

Corporate media is still asking the opinions of people who assured us that Iraq possessed all manner of weapons of mass destruction; that Saddam Hussein was in league with Osama Bin Laden; that George Bush had a clue.

So, philosophers, in this day and age, what value, truth?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

1. There are no consequences.............

They lie, they get called on it, life goes on.

I'm with you, atticus. I am perhaps an idealistic old fool, but I don't know any other way.

People get caught in their lies, or in their illegal or immoral capers, and their apologies are grudgingly delivered in the passive voice: "Mistakes were made." Or, shifting the onus, "I'm sorry people took it that way."

No one is accountable any more. Why aren't her House colleagues taking on Michelle Bachmann and calling her what she is - a flaming liar, making things up out of whole cloth? Why aren't those colleagues on the front pages, denouncing the liars among them?

Because of the fear that they'll be ostracized? Or because, when it's their turn to lie, they want the same protection that the current liars enjoy?

I don't know.

Beck et al. can duck behind the camouflage of "entertainment." They're not news people - they're "entertainers" - so they can say and do whatever they please, without any thought to veracity, because, hey, no one believes them, right?

It's heartbreaking and discouraging. I've pretty much given up on the lot, atticus. Barney Frank stands there shining and alone, but the rest of them, no, there's nothing there. No accountability, no consequences, no truth...................

[travelingtypist]

2. But, but, but...

...we're looking forward.

It would be too partisan to punish the war criminals for their war crimes. It would be criminalizing policy differences. It would...

I'm so tired of living behind the looking glass.