How many must die before we call it terrorism?

[nashville_brook]

At a time when the extreme right wing in this country is calling for violent civil war to fight "socialism," FOX News has provided a megaphone for instigators such as Michelle Bachmann to inveigh against the Census as the mechanism by which "Japanese were rounded up and put into the internment camps." So, it's little wonder that the blogosphere is lit up with speculation regarding the murder of Census worker, Bill Sparkman, in Clay County Kentucky on or around 9-12, the day of Glenn Beck's "Tea Bag" march on Washington.



In a year that is already memorable for acts of right-wing terrorism from the Pittsburgh cop-killer to the anti-semite murder at the Holocaust Museum, this summer brought us countless displays of intimidation by Glenn Beck's Tea Baggers at town halls and finally at his march in DC. You'd have to be comatose or in serious denial not to draw a straight line from Sparkman's Fed-scrawled body to the extremism that's been flowing like paranoid ooze from the broken septic tank of the Fruit Loop Wing of the Republican Party.

What other message are you to take-away from the murder scene where Sparkman's naked, bound and gagged body is displayed with the word "FED" drawn in magic marker on his chest; his Census ID duct-taped to his neck? How many knots do you have to tie yourself into not to come to the conclusion that this was not meant to send a political message?

Earlier this summer conservative radio host Neal Boortz told his audience “...the information is designed to help the government steal from you in order to pass off your property to the moochers. They're looters."



If Sparkman was killed by one of these terrorists, you can be sure the assassin believed he was "protecting his country" from the Census Bureau coming to loot the God-fearing people of Clay County Kentucky.

I've seen it argued in the so-called liberal blogosphere that the death was obviously the result of too-enthusiastic autoerotic asphyxiation -- to which I respond that I have to wonder what these guys are doing home alone posting on a Friday night. Others contend that Sparkman wandered on to a pot farm and was murdered because he saw too much. These folks apparently believe that drug manufacturers discourage law enforcement from snooping by proudly displaying naked, murdered bodies. Way to keep a secret, boys.

A body with a message scrawled on it is a political act. It is meant to be seen and talked about and to change behavior.

What we're seeing here is the use of violence as political strategy. It's terrorism, and not taking it seriously will lead to more innocent people being murdered. Don't act like this is some kind of radical notion. Terrorism is the tried and true method of the right wing in this country - from the first abortion provider felled by an assassin's bullet in the 80s, to the display of guns at presidential speeches in the last few months.



Violence and threats of violence aimed at political action -- also known as terrorism -- has gained a giant head of steam over the summer when armed, organized groups of hate radio followers called for outright civil war. Here's a sample of what one sponsor of Glenn Beck's 9/12 march, the National Association of Rural Land Owners, said in a video to followers preceding the march:
“...The injustices that were being inflicted on the colonials in 1776 that caused them to revolt against England are now the very same injustices Americans are being accosted with by their own government...

...The injustices we are now enduring will be the trigger that will send a large percentage of those Americans who are saying 'enough is enough' over the edge and declare civil war against the non-producers…

“As the liberals in the current administration squeeze Americans with their socialist, radical environmental and one-world-order agenda, as they work toward dismantling our Constitution, small armed revolts will begin to appear in isolated areas…There will be attacks by individuals on government institutions as more and more folks let their growing frustrations morph into violent acts."

There is nothing hysteric about taking these people at their word, given their recent accomplishments. But, lets review the body count in recent right-wing terrorist attacks, anyway:



-- Glenn Beck/Ron Paul/Alex Jones enthusiast Richard Poplawski murders three Pittsburgh police officers after uploading videos to youtube decrying a totalitarian government takeover featuring FEMA concentration camps and gun control.

-- Free Republic scribe James von Brunn shoots three people and kills one at the Holocaust Museum, because he "swore to protect his country." Police find a note in his car that says "Obama was created by the Jews."

-- Michael Savage/Sean Hannity/Bernard Goldberg fan David Adkisson pulled a 12-guage shotgun out of a guitar case and murdered two and injured five people in a Unitarian Church in Knoxville, Tenn during a childrens' recital. Adkisson explains his actions in a 4-page manifesto intended to be his suicide note: "Know this if nothing else: This was a hate crime. I hate the damn left-wing liberals. There is a vast left-wing conspiracy in this country & these liberals are working together to attack every decent & honorable institution in the nation, trying to turn this country into a communist state."



-- Randall Terry acolyte Scott Roeder walks into a church in Witchita and shoots OBGYN George Tiller. Roeder contends the murder was "justifiable homicide" because Dr. Tiller was "demonic" in providing reproductive health services which included late-term abortion.



It's worth repeating the sentiment contained in the pre-9/12 video:" There will be attacks by individuals on government institutions as more and more folks let their growing frustrations morph into violent acts."

No one yet has said it better than Speaker Nancy Pelosi: "I have concerns about some of the language that is being used because I saw ... I saw this myself in the late '70s in San Francisco. This kind of rhetoric is really frightening and it created a climate in which we, violence took place..."

Terrorism is not an exotic flower that grows only in the Middle East and parts of Africa. It will thrive anywhere that it's allowed to take root, and right now it's growing like kudzu all over our political landscape.

[laconicsax]

1. Silly! It's only terrorism when done by brown people, animal rights groups, or Alan Rickman.

That Oklahoma City thing? Never heard of it.
Unibomber? Doesn't ring a bell.
Holocaust memorial? Just a guy expressing his 1st amendment rights--with a gun.

(K&R BTW)

[nashville_brook]

39. imagine if this were a dead Tea Bagger found bound/gagged with "gun nut" written on his chest

what would the reaction be?

[laconicsax]

56. Someone with dark skin would be immediately blamed.

If a Teabagger had been found murdered in the same manner as the Census worker, the President would be immediately blamed by the RW noise machine. The media hates for the bad guys to be white.

Remember how quickly the attention given the Holocaust Memorial shooting died down?

[nashville_brook]

69. oh, hell yeah. i remember the day of the Oklahoma City bombing, i worked for an ad agency

owned by an ex-military couple (husband was special forces). the day it happened he was railing about the Arabs, and how this was most definitely their work. I completely disagreed -- said that the midwest would not fit the profile. that the date likely had significance, etc etc.

it's not like he was overtly racist -- it was more his conceptual framework. okay, maybe his conceptual framework was inherently racial -- but he wasn't a confederate flag waver -- quite the opposite. he used to where a tie with the northern army of the civil war just to piss off the closet confederates at the Rotary Club. and still, his conceptual framework went right straight to brown people as the perps.

[yurbud]

80. yeah, I remember that too--they immediately blamed the A-rabs

[TheBigotBasher]

77. Exactly

Hate sites (and that is what Rethug blogs have become) were even trying to blame the President for the school bullying incident on the bus.

Fox understands hate sells. They are doing it for profit, sadly, blood will be the consequence.

[nashville_brook]

79. maybe it's a reaction that FOX-bias fueling the left's inability to call out legitimate threats...

spit-balling.

[flvegan]

2. It's not terrorism until it costs some big special interest money.

Not in this sense, anyway.

[nashville_brook]

32. god help them if they smash a window in a Burger King

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. You know a few folks, even here, are still hiding the head in

proverbial sand. Or is it a lot of folks?

There is something ugly going on in the country, and it is something that if continues can and will lead to something rather ugly.

But even then people will keep having their heads in the sand. For crying out loud, OKC was not even called terrorism... so that should tell us something about message control.

Now I will say this though... if they can prove that either of these people on the radio or Congress incited any of this DIRECTLY, that is what the law requires, then freedom of speech stops. Otherwise, they can say it... and yes, they are FREE to say it.

That is why father Coughlin got away with it, why the NAZIs were allowed to march on Skokie and a few other events... this is what makes the country special.

That said, if a direct link can be found... well crying fire in theater starts to apply.

[nashville_brook]

5. amazing how the rest of the Republican party is silently letting this nuttery swing far and wide

i'm not for removing anyone's right to speech -- but i would dearly love to a Republican step up to the plate and say "enough's enough." Where is common decency? Where is civitas? Where is dignity?

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. You are talking of the modern GOP

that is their base, and they come from that base. They are also afraid of the head of the party... no, not Michael Steele, El-Rushbo.

[nashville_brook]

7. the inmates have taken over the asylum

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Sadly yes, and sadly they remind me of another

regional party that was the party of NO... the WHIGS...

I suspect that if 2010 goes really bad you will see a splinter break away and form a far more conservative, in the old definition of it, party formed.

Why the parallels scare me, and we have talked about this before.

[nashville_brook]

16. the way it's going, the "normal" Republicans are going to have to be the ones who splinter.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Those where the ones who splintered in 1852

Remember Lincoln ran on the Whig ticket the first time.

The Whigs became way too radical.

Why the parallels scare me...

Of course if they splinter, form a new party, and the country calms down I am all for it.

[KharmaTrain]

27. Some Of Us Are Also Waiting For A Police Report...

I've been very outspoken about the bile spewed on hate radio and faux noise and how its being used to amp up hatred for their own ratings and profit. Yes, we can draw links to several incidents where people have snapped and violence has resulted, but to jump on each thing that look suspicious without verifiable evidence is playing the same fear game that is being used on the other side.

Let's see what the investigation into this murder shows. If this is the murder based on the person's involvement with the census, then it becomes a federal crime with the FBI taking the lead on the investigation. And then let's see what they uncover. One must be vigilent but not at the expense of trashing the first ammendment or condemning people without proof. If there's proof, then let's see where it leads.

Lastly, there are a lot of unhinged people in this country...some who are looking for a reason to cause havoc. The other day I used the Manson example where the word "PIG" as splattered on the mirrors to try to implicate the Black Panthers in the Tate murders. It took a few days until the real truth came out. Let's see what happens here. Then, if there are iinks to hate media, that opens a new discussion...one that's long overdue...and it's the responsibility of those who hire the Drecks and Rushbos and their responsibility in holding a broadcast license in using their facilities to spew rhetoric that incites. But that's another topic, another day.

[billh58]

57. I didn't interpret

the OP as being about "each thing" on its individual merits, but more about a broad collection of "things" that point to a growing and serious problem in this country.

The radical and visible right-wing is feeding on the intensified fear and hatred that is being generated and fostered by the Limbaughs, Becks, and Hannitys of this country, and are gaining converts and are growing in number. The less visible extremists are being energized by the religious-right hate mongers posing as ministers and preachers, who only come to national light when they say something outrageous enough to make the news. This latter group, however, is the insidious core of the problem.

This purposeful division of our country and the American people is nothing new of course, and began with Irving Kristol, Lee Atwater, Newt Gingrich, Ronny Raygun, Karl Rove, and many other prominent neoconservatives. They began by framing the word "Liberal" through massive media campaigns, and gradually turning it into a catch-all phrase for Socialist, weak-on-crime, anti-American, anti-God, anti-gun, welfare recipients. They invented the Red State/Blue State scenario, and fanned the flames of old white-supremacist hatreds until they sprang back to life. They used their "born again" religious base as family-values pawns in the further division of the USA.

What we are seeing now, is the fruits of decades of hateful neoconservative labor being manifested through this generation of their undereducated children who never knew the America of community, tolerance, and compassion. They are rapidly arming themselves, defying authority, and threatening what they lovingly call "CWII" to fight the forces of "socialist evil."

On a brighter note, however, the children of we Liberals, Civil Rights Marchers, and New Dealers, are also growing more vocal, and seem willing to carry on the fight against bigotry, hatred, greed, and small-mindedness. I'm here to help them.

[nashville_brook]

4. Michelle Malkin is demanding an apology!!

I killed the Kentucky Census worker — along with every conservative in America
By Michelle Malkin • September 25, 2009 10:38 AM

Something horrible happened to Bill Sparkman, who worked part-time as a Census worker in rural southeastern Kentucky….

A speculative rumor spread by the Associated Press that Sparkman may have been targeted because of his Census job — coupled with an unsubstantiated claim that “fed” was “scrawled” on his chest — was enough “evidence” for the nutroots to convict every outspoken conservative activist and advocate for limited government of a murder that has yet to be determined a murder…

To recap:

1) Police have not determined yet that this was murder.

2) He wasn’t hanging from the tree.

3) It hasn’t been determined if he was even working as a Census data collector at the time of his death or whether that job had anything at all to do with his demise.

But:

I killed the Kentucky Census worker — along with every man and woman in America who is guilty of having said or written anything critical of government.

The criminalization of conservatism continues.


____________________________

http://thumpandwhip.com/2009/09/26/census-taker-sparkmans-murder-shows-conservatives-scumbags/

Sparkman’s friends and family are living a shock film, the poor folks who found the hanging corpse are having a hard time sleeping, and Michelle Malkin is the victim.

She and her ilk have been working overtime warning people that the census and the government are out to harm them. A census worker then gets horrifically murdered, for god’s sake. Everybody reflexively points to the folks who screamed that g-men are really dangerous, and you want an apology, Michelle?

[Kievan Rus]

8. I'll say it: these wingnuts are more dangerous than al-Qaeda. Agree/disagree?

There have been a slew of militant wingnut terrorist attacks in the United States in the past year. And I honestly think these creeps are scarier than al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or Islamic Jihad.

The al-Qaeda organization is fragmented, taking fire in Afghanistan, largely defeated in Iraq, and has alienated the majority of the Islamic world. Meanwhile, wingnut pundits continue their dangerous incitement to the mentally unstable in this country, unhindered on Faux News, and one of the people inciting the crazies is even a Congressperson.

I'll say it...the militant, violent wingnuts are definitely more dangerous than al-Qaeda at this point in time. They're basically the same as Jihadists, with the only differences being a different religion and 8,000 miles. Other than that, they both hate science...both hate progress...both hate women's rights...both hate democracy...so forth and so on. And I honestly believe that if this country were to ever endure the horror of another terrorist attack on the level of 9/11/2001, the culprits would be domestic, McVeigh-type nutcases and not foriegn Jihadists. I'm honestly more scared of militant wingnuts than I am of Osama bin Laden and his cohorts.

What do you think?

[Seeking Serenity]

10. Disagree. (n/t)

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Remember a US Senator was canned in

oh 1858... and we had calls for secession and all that.

They are just as dangerous actually, but for different reasons. Though I agree with you, we will have another attack in the US... like we did in OKC...

I wonder why folks forget about OKC so damn often...

[nashville_brook]

14. absolutely agree. to anyone not recognized as a "patriot" these people are real threat.

i'm seriously worried about what could happen next. these people have god on their side, and they believe that they are protecting the country. there's nothing that i'd rule out that they are capable of.

[Kievan Rus]

15. Exactly. Jihadists have the same mindset, except for a different religion

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Well I have said this before about fanatics

they are the same, regardless of what day of the week they pray.

[nashville_brook]

19. that's a good one!

[stray cat]

24. Those who lost family on 9-11 and the dead if they could speak would disagree

but both the left and right love melodrama.

[billh58]

62. And those who

lost family in the 1995 bombing of the Federal Building in Oklahoma City would most likely disagree with you.

[nashville_brook]

67. indeed: 168 dead -- 19 children -- 800 injured -->>>

[nashville_brook]

36. this intelligence report cites "small terrorist cell and lone wolves" as our most significant threat

http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:NoVMKyGOQdcJ:www.fas.org/irp/eprint/rightwing.pdf+right+wing+violence+in+US&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari

) Lone Wolves and Small Terrorist Cells(U//FOUO) DHS/I&A assesses that lone wolves and small terrorist cells embracing violent rightwingextremist ideology are the most dangerous domestic terrorism threat in the United States. Informationfrom law enforcement and nongovernmental organizations indicates lone wolves and small terroristcells have shown intent—and, in some cases, the capability—to commit violent acts.

— (U//LES) DHS/I&A has concluded that white supremacist lone wolves pose the mostsignificant domestic terrorist threat because of their low profile and autonomy—separate fromany formalized group—which hampers warning efforts.— (U//FOUO) Similarly, recent state and municipal law enforcement reporting has warned of thedangers of rightwing extremists embracing the tactics of “leaderless resistance” and of lonewolves carrying out acts of violence.

— (U//FOUO) Arrests in the past several years of radical militia members in Alabama, Arkansas,and Pennsylvania on firearms, explosives, and other related violations indicates the emergenceof small, well-armed extremist groups in some rural areas

[Douglas Carpenter]

37. certainly if they ever gain real and unrestrained political power, they could be far more dangerous

Then they would be in control of the most powerful state apparatus in the world.

There has been much talk about the possible consequences of extremist gaining control of Pakistan and their nuclear arsenal. What if this click of American extremist - who sound far more extreme than Bush/Cheney - were to gain control of the world's most powerful nuclear arsenal?

Al Quada is crazy enough, but they lack the means. These people are crazy and if they were to gain power, would have the means.

[nashville_brook]

45. these folks have already been given unrestrained political power thru the Bush Admin, and look

what we got: 2 unwinnable wars, economic collapse, spectacular acts of terrorism on American soil, the sacking of New Orleans, the near-dismantling of the government... i could go on and on.

the people responsible for the overheated rhetoric cited in the OP are sore losers of the highest order. They lose an election and call for violence against the government. They've completely broken the social contract, and it's high time they were called-out for it -- before more people are killed.

[Douglas Carpenter]

50. the Bush Administration was bad enough. It appears to me that the current Republican

Party is starting to make the Bush Administration look moderate in comparison.

[nashville_brook]

53. definitely -- a scared, injured animal is way more dangerous than a fat, happy one.

[Flatulo]

48. Disagree 100%

[LiberalTexasDemocrat]

51. I agree 110%

I'm a veteran of both the armed conflict in Vietnam, and the protests during and afterward. I find it interesting that my conservative acquaintances can hold dearly to the theory that free speech exercised in opposition to that conflict gave aid and comfort to the enemy. Yet when a government worker, a political adversary, or private citizen exercising the freedom to lawfully pursue a career, or express an opinion, is gunned down or otherwise murdered, the words that radio and television "entertainers" speak on a daily basis have no "motivating effect". It's interesting that many conservatives believe presenting such things as the image of armed allies at the political events of their adversaries can in no way motivate others to take more drastic action.

I don't see an easy turn around in the political atmosphere that right wing radio show entertainers so greedily profit from. It's the goose that lays the golden egg for both their profit and the profits that enrich their corporate sponsors. And really, when was the last time you remember corporations putting the welfare of the average citizen and the United States of America before the guarantee of profits?

[nashville_brook]

54. the US is operating like a giant dysfunctional family with an abusive parent.

the abuser can blow thru the house at any hour terrorizing the family, and excuses will be made again and again for why s/he's not responsible for his/her actions.

welcome to DU, btw.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

59. Do a body count and reassess your position.

[Kievan Rus]

106. The Jihadists were more dangerous then....

but have been severly hampered.

Wingnuts are given free reign to commit violence and the Man couldn't care less.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

108. Who has given them free reign? The Man has arrested them when they commit violent crimes.

[billh58]

63. Agree!

ALL fanatical zealots (pick the cause of your choice) believe that the only way to make a point is through acts of violence, and by killing those who don't agree with their "cause."

[bertman]

74. Agree. nt

[Hippo_Tron]

102. Both are dangerous

On the other hand, the odds of getting killed by either one are pretty slim.

[grantcart]

9. Very very impressive thread

[wroberts189]

11. "How many will die before the MSM calls it domestic terrorism"

Would have been better imho.

btw knr

[nashville_brook]

20. agreed -- i suck at subject lines

this reminds me about how the right went apeshit during the campaign with Palin barking about "domestic terrorists." what shitbags they are.

[wroberts189]

22. It was fine.. I was just adding my own penny to it :)

Palin... do not get me started ..to think she could be POTUS right now.


I would be hand digging under the biggest rocks on my property.

[stray cat]

25. Free speech or terrorism - are we really if favor of arresting people for free speech?

or only those we disagree with.

[nashville_brook]

29. no one's calling for ending free speech. but, i see you're not sure which meme to go with:

"just" murder or terrorist act or no free speech. confusing, huh?

[stuball111]

21. I just wonder if the founding fathers had this kind of free speach in mind...

When the wrote it in. To me, it means freedom to disagree in an intelligent manner, not using racial or hateful dialogue.

[nashville_brook]

30. Freedom of Speech is already granted selectively -- look at Pittsburgh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAwmX5O-FAE

But, what I'd really like to see are some "honest" Republicans denouncing this. Seriously -- are there no adults in that party?

[laughingliberal]

33. Not many adults there but a few

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/07/01/mchenry-bachmann-census/

Now, in the latest rebuke of her off-the-wall claims about the Census, three out of the four House Republicans on the subcommittee that oversees the Census have released a statement calling her boycott plan “llogical, illegal and not in the best interest of our country”:

[stuball111]

49. Makes you sick eh?

I saw a few videos on the G20... fucking scary! I grew up in Canada, and remember seeing anti war protests in the 60's and 70's on TV and thinking, wow...so much for freedom in America! We used to watch in awe as they cut kids down at Kent State and things like that and be glad we lived where we did, and thinking how hypocritical Americans were about freedoms of speech etc. I experienced it first hand at a Dead show in Detroit in 04 at a corporate venue when they called in the Detroit police to shut down the kids who were setting up vending booths to sell grill cheese and t-shirts and trinkets. I thought that was nuts! Cops on horse back, telling me to "move along" in a menacing mood, all to force us inside so we would pay 50 bucks for a t-shirt and 10 bucks for a hot dog and coke from the corporate venue!

I didn't see any cops at the teabagger rally's arresting the assholes with guns, but you can bet if any G20 protesters had one strapped on, he'd be shot! I'm all for free speech, but when it smacks of hatred or racism, it needs to have some limits and laws to protect the freedom of others to be hurt by it.

[nashville_brook]

52. same shit happened at dead shows in the 80s. as for free speech,

no one's calling for legal limits to be used, i.e. arresting people for hate speech, etc. it's such a small thing that's being asked for: discretion and recognition. Republicans should join Speaker Nancy Pelosi in calling for better discretion and a cooling-off of the rhetoric. also, we need to stop fooling ourselves that incitements to violence aren't having the desired effect.

[stuball111]

55. True...

Times haven't changed much... I remember in the 04 show thinking, wow... this is what it was like, and that nothing has changed. The other thing is, that the more they crank up the rhetoric (the haters) the more repulsive it is to the average folk, and the more people are driven away from the republican party. Could have a positive affect, but it sure is polarizing. I don't see many repubs calling for restraint, they all seems to be enjoying the attacks, thinking it's helping them win votes, and that's a typical right wing thing, let others make the noise, and sit back and do nothing.

[nashville_brook]

58. i saw one writer yesterday criticizing Bachmann as a "gift to the Democrats" -- not a

critique based the moral issue. rather, a critique of political strategy -- and a muted one, at that. while I can't imagine that anyone would have anything to lose by distancing themselves from the most extreme elements of the party, they obviously believe there's much to be gained by encouraging the crazy-talk. truly revolting.

[stuball111]

68. Yes it is...

Doesn't seem to be any effort to put a lid on it. The only effort I saw was McCain and the crazy woman who said Obama was a Muslim. That was a moment, but they seemed to stop there. You could see that McCain really didn't have a choice in that one, and I bet if it wasn't as widely televised, and in some obscure town hall, he would have let her run with it. But it didn't matter, they all jumped on the bandwagon anyway after that one! Some repubs have come out against her, but not nearly enough, and may be a political asset to Dems, but at a price. She needs to be shut up, or committed!

[nashville_brook]

70. i've actually been thinking about that a LOT lately -- where's that McCain maverickiness?

[stuball111]

71. Gone... he's just settin back collecting paychecks now...nt

[nashville_brook]

31. dupe-delete

[stray cat]

23. Sometimes murderers are just murderers....

[Echo In Light]

26. Not when they employ terrorist tactics that are perpetuated via Establishment $ and directives

[nashville_brook]

34. yep -- if this were a decomposing body in a shallow grave, then it would "just" be a murder...

displaying the body with the Census ID duct-taped to his neck, and the word inked across his chest is meant to send a political message.

[conscious evolution]

28. Its not terrorism-Its civil war

[cali]

35. not even close.

[nashville_brook]

38. some on the extreme right wing are calling for that -- we can't pretend this hyperbole isn't harmful

were people to honestly believe the overheated rhetoric of the flat-earthers, then the only reasonable response is to pick up the pitchforks and start a civil war.

so, people with smaller microphones than Beck/Malkin take the rhetoric to the next level, which is calling for bloody insurrection.

[MadHound]

40. Please, if they didn't call the OKC bombing an act of right wing terrorism, which it was,

Do you honestly think that they're going to label actions like this right wing terrorism?

[nashville_brook]

42. First they came for the abortion doctors and I didn't say anything because I wasn't an abortion doc

Then they came for the Unitarians, and I didn't say anything because I wasn't a Unitarian.
Then they came for the Census Workers and I didn't say anything because I wasn't a Census Worker.

This is a conversation we need to have.

[Joanne98]

41. They're terrorists!

[nashville_brook]

47. Right-Wing Terrorism Must Be Stopped -- Rachel Maddow

http://www.alternet.org/reproductivejustice/140501/rachel_maddow:_right-wing_terrorism_must_be_stopped/?page=1

FRANK SCHAEFFER, AUTHOR, “CRAZY FOR GOD”: Thank you for having me on, Rachel.

MADDOW: Writing at “Huffington Post,” you apologized, as a former member of the religious right, for what happened to Dr. Tiller. Why did you feel the need to apologize?

SCHAEFFER: Well, words have consequences.

And what we did in the ‘70s and ‘80s, my father, Dr. Francis Schaeffer, Dr. C. Everett Koop, who became Reagan surgeon general, members of the Republican Party who worked with us to make abortion part of the Republican agenda, the Roman Catholic allies that we had in the church, various people—we talked and our talk got more and more extreme, and less and less democratic. Until, finally, my dad actually went so far as to write a book called “A Christian Manifesto,” where he said the use of force to change Roe v. Wade and roll back the law legalizing abortion would be legitimate and he compared Roe and the American government to Hitler‘s Germany in the 1930s.

And when you look at what happened to Dr. Tiller, there‘s a direct line connecting the rhetoric that I was part of as a young man and this murder. And so, people, like me, are responsible for what we said and what we did and the way we raised the temperature on this debate out of all bounds. And so, when O‘Reilly talks about the fact that these people of the far left are against FOX or against him or trying to muzzle the debate, he‘s telling a lie.

I am not a member of the far right—until I voted for Barack Obama in the last election, I am lifelong Republican. I am still pro-life. I also believe abortion should be legal, but I agree with Barack Obama when he says we ought to find ways to help women, help children, give contraceptives, sex education, to lessen the number of abortions. I think abortion is a tragedy.

But I also think that pretending that you can call abortion murder and Tiller the baby killer, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera—and that these worlds don‘ words don‘t have an impact, is crazy.

So, this is what helps unhinge a society, talking like this. And I was part of that, and that‘s why I apologize—and I would apologize again I am sorry for what I did.

And I think that people who say extreme things should stand up and take the consequences and admit when they were wrong. And in this case, we were wrong. We were wrong more really. We were wrong politically.

And as a believing Christian, I was wrong in terms of someone who says he follows Jesus Christ.

[Bluenorthwest]

43. I guess hate speech and invective are only bad on some occasions?

Hate filled bigots posing as ministers preached hatred toward the GLBT community as part of Obama's primary campaign. The most vicious of them is most famous for his declaration of 'war' against gay people, because he says "they are trying to kill our children." That man was hired by Obama to host events in his name. When complaints were raised, Obama said that lots of people agree with the bigots and that the bigots were "good decent and moral people" who he promised would always have his ear. "They are trying to kill our children." "Good decent moral people."
What one sews, they say is what one reaps. They say cast your invective upon the waters, in many days it will return to question your legitimacy.
It was all so acceptable when the targets were 'just those people.' Now, maybe folks will learn a lesson in why we should never accept hate speech. Ever.

[nashville_brook]

44. this courting of the Fruit Loop Wing of the Republican Party must be called out every time. period.

otherwise we're tacitly consenting to more Matthew Shepard tragedies. it's like saying we're okay with "collateral damage" of some out-groups. that, if it's a choice between a few thousand bucks of their cash, or taking a moral stand -- we'll be cashing the checks every time. this is irresponsible and it must end.

[Bluenorthwest]

46. That is correct,

and pandering to those loops of fruit is not mitigated just because they have some cross shaped marshmallow bits in with the rest.

[Taverner]

60. I asked this last week, and was pilloried as a result - here on DU

Most DU'ers here are in serious denial - so much so that they think "everything's fine - nothing to worry about - you're just south/texas/rural/urban/Christian bashing!" and they leave in a huff

Yes, I think we are in serious danger. And I expect if the rural areas do take up arms en masse, I expect to see some DU'ers flying the Confederate Flag right alongside them.

[nashville_brook]

64. i noticed that too-this is my response. people can be all the southern/texan/christian

they want. that's not what's up for discussion. what's a problem is violence directed at political action. they guy who killed the three cops was a kid from Pittsburgh. Timothy McVeigh was from Lockport, NY. we're calling out the violence as a means to political end -- not the geographical representation of the perps.

as someone who spent more than a decade on the other side of the mountains from Clay Co, KY, I can tell you that violence that happens in remote/rural areas doesn't have to be en masse to be effective. i used to go to the Holston Valley Unitarian Church in Gray, TN when I was in High School -- a much smaller/backward area than Knoxville. I'm certain that people have a much different attitude about attending church since the attack in Knox. What was once about fellowship and worship is now a political act in itself. that is the direct result of terror.

[Taverner]

65. In all honesty, I wonder how many of these folks are really Democrats

[nashville_brook]

82. in researching this i came across a handful of RW blogs/articles referencing DU

i wouldn't be surprised at all if we had quite a few posting visitors.

[Ho Tai]

61. I have to wonder...

Maybe this is off-message or a stretch, but in a country with 300 million people & 200 million guns, there MUST be a few Lefty nutzoids who own guns & have decided that they're not going to take this shit anymore, and act out. It's not hard to imagine someone thinking, "I know that Joe Blow down the street is a Far-right-wing hate-spreader, so I'm going to start carrying my pistol around in my pocket, & if I ever see Joe alone somewhere, with no witnesses, then I'm going to put two or three in his skull & take my gun out to the woods & bury it deep." I would almost guarantee that this happens. The cops (& press) would surely notice that a lot of "random" killings are of Far-righties... At first blush you'd think that the propaganda machine would be all-too-eager to report this, to foment even more outrage on the Right. However, if they did so, they'd be defeating the string-pullers' purposes. It would defuse the terror aspect, as both Left and Right would be reminded that mouth-breathers can be shot, too. And, if it put the Far-right into enough of a froth to confront the government head-on with weapons, the dim-wits would be handed their asses, and that would be the END of it. The reporting as it's done now is to frighten US. The MSM are terrorists, too.

300 million people, the vast variations in the human psyche (think bell curve) -- I'd be very surprised if this hasn't happened.

What say you?

[nashville_brook]

66. it's a very interesting sociological question, and one that can be addressed best with

good statistical evidence.

my instinct is that it takes a special kind of un-hingedness to go on a shooting spree, and that kind of crazy might only come with repressive ideology that has tamped down human emotions and passions to the point of explosion -- that, lefties prolly don't have that kind of pressure boiling up inside of them. but this is me spit-balling.

would be interested to know if this has ever happened -- there is a book, though, about workplace violence that might shed a light on this. It's called "Going Postal."


http://www.amazon.com/Going-Postal-Rebellion-Workplaces-Columbine/dp/1932360824/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254078154&sr=1-2



Product Description
An eye-opening look at the phenomenon of school and workplace shootings in America, Going Postal explores the rage-murder phenomenon that has plagued — and baffled — America for the last three decades, and offers some provocative answers to the oft-asked question, "Why?" By juxtaposing the historical place of rage in America with the social climate that has existed since the 1980s — when Reaganomics began to widen the gap between executive and average-worker earnings — the author crafts a convincing argument that these schoolyard and office massacres can be seen as modern-day slave rebellions. He presents many fascinating and unexpected cases in detail. Like slave rebellions, these massacres are doomed, gory, sometimes even inadvertently comic, and grossly misunderstood. Taking up where Bowling for Columbine left off, this book seeks to set these murders in their proper context and thereby reveal their meaning.

[billh58]

72. I would argue

that anyone who views the 2nd Amendment as some sort of cult charter, and is fixated 24/7 on owning, carrying, and openly displaying firearms "because it's legal," does not adhere to a traditional Left/Right philosophy of politics. I believe that radical gun promoters on both the (self-described) Left and the Right have much more in common, than they have differences.

Most radical gun zealots that I have interacted with seem to lean more toward a Libertarian anarchical point-of-view. They profess to be only interested in self-protection, or in participating in a "necessary" civilian armed-militia if the opportunity presents itself. Of course, there are the more traditional gun owners who are totally responsible, and don't view themselves as the potential modern-day Revolutionary Soldiers.

The people of the United States of America have more guns per capita than any nation in the world (just above 2nd place Yemen), and the least actual need for them, yet they want "legal" access to bigger, faster-firing, and more advanced weaponry which (in most cases) was specifically designed for military use. And no, I am not a "grabber," as anyone who dares to disagree with the more radical gun promoters is labeled. I just question the sanity and civility of a fully-armed civilian populace, and the export of heavy weaponry lost by irresponsible (or greedy?) owners and dealers that end up in the hands of Mexican drug lords.

[nashville_brook]

73. my liberal, peace-loving uncle has been a member of the NRA for decades -- said that liberals needed

to temper the reactionaries in the organization. completely OT.

I've often wondered how much the gun "debate" is manipulated in this country by people who profit from arming militias in the third world.

[billh58]

83. I don't believe

that the NRA is a good gauge for measuring the level of gun fanaticism in this country any longer. They are, without question, a political lobbying group, but I have seen little evidence that they directly represent gun manufacturers, or the more radical gun promoters. I'm certain, however, that the manufacturers have lobbying representatives of their own, whose interests at times mesh with those of the NRA.

I think that you are correct about the "debate" being influenced by certain gun manufacturers, and specifically the debate about the Assault Weapons Ban (AWB) and "gun shows." Although the ban expired in 2004, President Obama's campaign included a proposal to renew it, which seems to be throwing the gun promoters into a tizzy, and set off a panic-buying run on guns and ammunition. That's just gotta be good for business, don't you think? AG Holder maintains that a good number of assault weapons purchased in the US are being exported (smuggled?) to the Mexican drug cartels, who use them to attack US Border, DEA, and ATF agents.

And lastly, it appears that some of the more rabid gun cultists will not be satisfied until they are permitted to exercise their full Second Amendment rights, and legally purchase a nuclear-tipped missile (silo or launch vehicle optional).

[nashville_brook]

87. Policy Shift in U.S.-Mexico Cross-border Illegal Drug & Weapons Trade

fwiw...

http://globaleconomy.foreignpolicyblogs.com/tag/drug-trade/

In a major foreign policy shift, U.S. Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton admitted publicly that an “insatiable demand” by Americans for illegal drugs in the U.S., along with easy – and cheap – access to powerful hand guns and assault rifles are fueling the drug cartel violence at the U.S. – Mexican border. “Our inability to prevent weapons from being illegally smuggled across the border to arm these criminals causes the deaths of police officers, soldiers and civilians,” noted Clinton. That violence threatens to spill over across the border into the U.S. Seeking to ease a cross-border relationship strained by the illegal drug trade and cross-border drug trafficking, Secretary Clinton made the clearest acknowledgment yet from the U.S. government of the role American demand for illegal drugs, and the supply of illegal weapons to the drug cartels play in the illicit cross-border narcotics Market.

In addition to the burgeoning demand & supply of illegal drugs Market, Secretary Clinton noted about the flow of American guns and money into Mexico that criminals are out-gunning Mexican law enforcement. Clinton, referring to guns and military-style equipment like night vision goggles and body armor that the cartels are smuggling into Mexico from the United States, “Clearly, what we have been doing has not worked and it is unfair for our incapacity … to be creating a situation where people are holding the Mexican government and people responsible,” she said. “That’s not right.”

Mexian President Felipe Calderon has complained for two years that the U.S. isn’t carrying its weight in the cross-border drug war, despite the fact that American drug users and illegal weapons smugglers fuel the problem. “We need to stop the flow of guns and weapons towards Mexico,” President Calderon told U.S. reporters last month. “Let me express to you that we’ve seized in this last two years more than 25,000 weapons and guns, and more than 90 percent of them came from United States, and I’m talking from missiles launchers to machine guns and grenades.”

[billh58]

88. Thanks for

the post, and I'm certain that some gun promoters will manage to lay this sad bit of reality at the feet of the illegal-aliens among us. Somehow, they will manage to portray this as an example of why US citizens need to arm themselves more heavily, and in greater numbers.

Hillary is a "grabber."

[friendly_iconoclast]

103. Actually, I lay it at the feet of the US and Mexican governments

The US government:

for handing out Soviet-bloc infantry weapons like they were AOL discs (for those of a certain age) back in the day to provide plausably deniable aid to various contras and paramilitaries- thanks, Ronnie!

Now, a lot of real-deal Kalashnikov Klones come from factories who don't ask too many questions of customers who pay
with hard cash- like, frinstance, drug cartels.

The Mexican government:

For letting all those military and police-only weapons they buy directly from the US manufacturers
grow legs and walk out of warehouses.

Or 'fall of the back of a truck', to put it another way.

Now, it wouldn't do at all for Sec. Clinton to tell MX Pres. Calderon that his government makes Chicago's look
like a Common Cause meet-and-greet.

So the two of them maintain the fiction that all those machine guns and rocket launchers the MX government
keeps seizing and displaying come from US gun shops and swap meets.

And if the preceding hasn't depressed you enough- the cartels would be very happy to supply some of the weapons discussed
to RW nutters (if the price was right, of course)

[benEzra]

94. Thing is, most of the serious hardware the cartels are using

is restricted to police/military only in the United States, and is not available on the U.S. civilian market. If it is coming from the United States, it is either coming from the U.S. government, U.S. law enforcement agencies, or (most likely) the Mexican military, which uses a lot of U.S. made weapons. Don't forget the Zetas are largely deserters from the Mexican military.

For example, some photos that have been in the news showing cartel members caught with U.S. made weapons:



Look closely at the photo above. Those are NFA Title 2 resricted length uppers on those carbines, not Title 1 civilian AR-15's; those are most likely full auto police/military only M4's. The M203 grenade launchers, 40mm M203 rounds, and hand grenades are likewise restricted to police/military in the United States. I see maybe two or three guns that may be civilian in the mix, but almost everything in that photo comes from the military/police supply chain.


Another:



In that photo, I see an M4 type carbine with a 14.5" military/police upper (meaning it's probably a real Title 2 military/police only M4, not a non-automatic Title 1 civilian carbine), what appears to be a rocket launcher (NFA Title 2 restricted in the USA), a belt-fed machinegun (NFA Title 2 restricted in the USA), and hand grenades (NFA title 2 restricted in the USA).


And another:



If you look closely, all the guns but one clearly have NFA Title 2 length barrels (less than 16"). The longer barreled carbine may be a civilian AR-15, if it's even real; at least one of the "guns" in that photo has a visible orange tip to the "suppressor", suggesting it is a toy Airsoft replica and not a real FN-Herstal P90 as it would first appear.

Are there some U.S. made guns flowing south as drugs flow north? Certainly. Mostly handguns, probably with a few non-automatic civilian rifles thrown in. But the automatic weapons, RPG's, and grenades the cartels are very visibly using are not coming from the U.S. civilian market, because they are tightly controlled in this country.


http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/nfa_faq.txt
http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/nfa.htm



FWIW, I know of no serious effort on the pro-gun side to repeal the existing tight controls on automatic weapons, short-barreled rifles and shotguns, sound suppressed weapons, M203-type grenade launchers, or other NFA Title 2 restricted items. The line between nukes and civilian small arms was drawn decades ago by the National Firearms Act; the only thing on the civilian side of the line is non-automatic, non-sound-suppressed small arms under .51 caliber (over-.50 shotguns and some hunting rifles excepted) that meet the barrel length and overall length requirements of the NFA.

The "assault weapon" fraud was not about restricting military automatic weapons (which are already tightly controlled by the Title 2 provisions of the NFA); it was, and is, about halting the manufacture of the most popular non-automatic civilian rifles in the United States.

[billh58]

99. So our

government is selling illegal arms to the Mexican drug cartels? These must be the same people that flew the airplanes into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon, and assassinated JFK. Sneaky bunch these invisible government operatives. We just may need to form a "militia" and root them out...

[friendly_iconoclast]

104. Not our government, *their* government. The MX .gov has a weapons monopoly

You might want to remember: Fisk before snark, and that will make the snark *so* much better.

Anyway, back to the topic:

Anybody in Mexico who wants to legally get a gun has to go through the government. Civilian or police- the federal
government issues guns to the various police agencies. Of course, a lot of them get 'lost' along the way...

If you are a civilian, and somehow acquire a permit, you must pick up your gun in Mexico City. That is, if you don't
want to skip the whole 'official permit' thing and go the Franklin Permit route.

[benEzra]

109. No, our government sells arms to the Mexican military and law enforcement....

and corrupt logistics officers in the Mexican military and law enforcement, and deserters from the Mexican military, supply the cartels with weapons diverted from the Mexican military supply chain. Most of the Zetas *are* ex-Mexican military, remember.

But there is no question that the guns in those pictures did NOT come from the U.S. civilian market, because they are not sold on the U.S. civilian market.

There is also plenty of ex-Warsaw-Pact ordnance and weapons floating around in Columbia and elsewhere, left over from decades of U.S.-Soviet proxy wars (hence the cartels' access to military-only RPG's and selective-fire AK-47's, which are also not available in the USA), but the media focus is usually on the U.S.-made weapons.

[bertman]

78. Interesting comment, Ho Tai. You may be right that this could happen; although,

I think the conclusion you reach about the Far-right confronting the GOVERNMENT head on is waaayyy off base. The Far-right would not try to take on the GOVERNMENT, it would do what it is doing now: kill more high-visibility liberals/progressives. This might even include random killings such as the ones you have described as Joe Blow the hate-spreader--except substitute Larry Liberal or Patty Progressive.

There are only a few on the right who would be stupid enough to take on the cops, that one guy notwithstanding.

The more likely scenario is that the right wingers would escalate the terrorism by killing prominent lefties or by shooting up a rally by Democrats. Then, if liberals took up arms to protect themselves, the police, FBI, Fatherland Insecurity, Xe and every other paramilitary group in America would decide to round up the dangerous left-wingers.

Believe me, the authorities who have the weaponry are not LIBERALS or Democrats for the most part.

Your scenario would not end up on a happy note for anyone except the Glenn Becks and Michele Malkins of the world.

[dysfunctional press]

75. drunk-drivers kill upwards of 35,000 EVERY YEAR in the U.S....

al queda has killed 3,000 since the turn of the century.

who are the REAL terrorists?

[nashville_brook]

76. drunk drivers aren't engaging in political action, you're free to fear them -- but they don't meet

the criteria for "terrorist."

[dysfunctional press]

107. they're still more dangerous to every single person in this society than ANY terrorist.

it's disgusting that we commit so many resources to chasing boogeymen- when REAL threats are shrugged off.

[yurbud]

81. I was more concerned about future acts of terrorism after Oklahoma City...

since if the feds did their job, the threat from foreign terrorists would be relatively low--simply stop giving expedited visas to Saudis on terror watch lists--but the militia movement at the time of the Oklahoma City federal building bombing was much broader based and had rhetorical support from right wing talk radio.

The only reason I'm not so worried about it now is I've realized those on the right are loud-mouthed cowards. They would like very much to go Rwanda on the rest of us, but since they didn't do so when Bush was at the height of his popularity and the right controlled all three branches of government, it is unlikely they would do so now, when the right has only minuscule support, except in isolated incidents.

[nashville_brook]

85. i agree -- i don't think there's a threat of large-scale/organized violence...

but i do expect the lone wolf scenario will emerge.

[yurbud]

95. if they do that, it could backfire--look at LBJ and the Great Society after JFK

I don't think Biden is any LBJ (except for being the bitch of Wall Street on war issues) but the public revulsion at moneyed interest would reach such a level that Washington would feel compelled to act to prevent a revolution.

[nashville_brook]

105. whoa -- i've never thought of great society like that, but, that actually makes sense.

biden is a cypher to me. i really hope he doesn't wind up being president like LBJ.

[yurbud]

110. I'd take LBJ since we'll have the wars anyway

Imagine the Iraq War AND Great Society instead of Iraq War AND reaganomics.

[AsahinaKimi]

84. I still like the idea of an improved hate crime bill

One that would fine FOX News every time they incite violence.. IF they kept being hit with a ten thousand dollar
"ticket".. maybe they would clean up their act..

[nashville_brook]

86. hell yeah -- it seems like incitements to violence should be fined just like boobs.

more so, really.

[Seldona]

89. But Sparkman might have commited suicide.

Don't go jumping to any conclusions. Lots of people are found bound, gagged, and hanged, apparently.

:sarcasm:

[nashville_brook]

98. :) -- eggsactly.

[wial]

90. it's terrorism

'nuff said.

How about some online polls?

"Is Glenn Beck a terrorist, or merely an instigator and abettor of terrorism?"

[whoneedstickets]

91. I see a strong correlation between those who disagree and the RKBA Du'er here

just an observation

[nashville_brook]

93. had to google rkba --

i have recently paid attention to discussions in the gun forum, and it's a whole different world.

[billh58]

101. Too true,

and if they are to be believed, the Second Amendment is the most important sentence in the entire Constitution, and takes precedence over all other rights and freedoms.

[benEzra]

111. Who's "they"?

The 2ndA doesn't take precedence, but it deserves equal footing (e.g., strict scrutiny and incorporation), which it generally hasn't gotten, D.C. v. Heller notwithstanding.

[Alcibiades]

92. For 8 years radical right said liberals sympathetic to terro

and yet, the minute they lose an election, they actually become terrorists themselves.

This isn't quite new, of course. There were the Oklahoma City bomber(s), Kaczynski (who many incorrectly assert was a left wing terrorist, the Freemen, Eric Rudolph, etc.

But there do seem to be more of these asshats nowadays.

[nashville_brook]

96. ain't that the truth -- on both counts!

[BlooInBloo]

97. Uh... it's like pulling teeth just getting white folks to call other white folks "racist"...

You want to up the ante to "terrorist"?

Sure it's true - but good luck getting hardly any white folks to go along with it.

I'm happy to be there with you and like 2 others though!

[indepat]

100. It is my fervent hope that BHO is biding his time, giving the whole lot of 'em enough rope to hang

themselves and then one day, wham, an end to comity, bipartisanship, and civility with the Feds swiftly coming down on flagrant domestic terrorists and other known major lawbreakers, present and past, like a proverbial ton of bricks. :P