IQ and Spanking--Update

[Jackpine Radical]

The other day I posted a news story about the relationship between spanking and IQ, and collected the usual "correlation is not causation critiques. All reasonable commentary, based on the information I then had and posted. Now, however, I found the actual journal article, and it turns out to have been a longitudinal study with controls that answered many of the objections raised here. So, forthwith, I present you with the abstract of the study and a link to the article.

http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/CP51.pdf

This study tested the hypothesis that the use of corporal punishment (CP), such as slapping a child's hand or “spanking,” is associated with restricted developent of cognitive ability. Cognitive ability was measured at the start of the study and 4 years later for 806 children age 2-4 and 704 children age 5-9 in the National Longitudinal Study of Youth. The analyses controlled for parenting and demographic variables. Children of mothers in both cohorts who used little or no CP at Time 1 gained cognitive ability faster than children who were spanked. The more CP experienced, the more they fell behind children who were not spanked.

[Robb]

1. Fascinating.

I was not present for your original thread, but I would likely have been one of the "correlation is not causation" naysayers and demanded to see the study before believing it.

Well done for bringing this here. K&R.

[Jackpine Radical]

34. The C-not-C argument always needs to be pointed out in these cases.

People do leap to conclusions about relationships in data.

[JonQ]

2. It couldn't be that

dumber children didn't learn as quickly and required more spankings? Or couldn't simply be reasoned with?

Or perhaps that more intelligent parents tended to avoid corporal punishment, or perhaps lie about it because they know it is not acceptable in many circles?

There's a lot of factors that the study did not account for.

[ecstatic]

4. I agree. The parents who spanked more probably did not

read to their children, talk to their children, play with their children--basically all the things that factor into a child's cognitive development. And of course, like you said, the intelligence of the parents plays a role as well.

[JonQ]

6. Yeah, when I saw the little blurb on news

about this I immediately had a bad feeling about the study. And the more I read about it the worse it seemed.

But of course the only thing most people hear is "spanking drops your childs IQ by 5 points".

[Chan790]

52. If that is all they take away from this...

and subsequently stop hitting their children, is that not still a net positive result of having exposed them to this polling data?

[Name removed]

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[imdjh]

38. delete

[CanSocDem]

13. All of that...

...for sure would enter into the results. I'm not going to re-read the study that was first brought to my attention 40+ years ago and then re-presented, 30 years ago, in teachers college, that inflicting physical pain DID NOT enhance learning.

What I have learned, in real life, is that non-violence is more productive in facilitating learning and the "spanking" is more about the insecurities of the spanker than about the education of the 'spankee'.

I came to this conclusion despite having suffered numerous spankings as a child...jes' sayin'.

.

[JonQ]

14. As long as we're throwing correlations in there

kids have been getting steadily worse behaved in public as corporal punishment has been in decline.

[CanSocDem]

17. Copy that.

Thirty years ago they were telling us to shower children with praise, for their smallest accomplishment to make them feel good about themselves.....blah blah blah

Now we have all these people looking for praise for doing nothing.

Don't get me started.

.

[JonQ]

21. Yeah, the self-esteem

as the most important part of education movement I think has done irreperable harm to a number of generations.

You shouldn't be given a high self esteem (can't really) you should earn it by accomplishing things that are noteworthy. They've tried to skip that important step.

And kids realize it, if you give everyone a trophy pretty quickly they get bored and don't want to play any more. They seem to like to have the opportunity to win, even if it means losing some times.

[CanSocDem]

23. Yeh....

...well the problem with that is that we have been wrong about what is "noteworthy" and what does "earning" mean.

What does the song A Boy Named Sue mean to you in regards to this issue?

.

[JonQ]

I'm not really sure if that applies

but I guess that challenges early in life lead to generally tougher and more self reliant people.

I think a song titled "a boy that was always right and was so handsome and we're all so proud of regardless of what he actually does" wouldn't be nearly as interesting.

[CanSocDem]

31. Sorry to be vague but...

...what I was suggesting was that a boy growing up with a girls name, according to the song, would learn how to fight.

Staying alive to confront your maker may sound like an admirable goal to some, but he could have spent his time growing up, exploring gender stereotypes.

.

[Fumesucker]

43. The problem with that is that some kids win most of the time or even all of the time.

While other kids lose most of the time or even all of the time.

What do you tell a kid that never wins anything?

[JonQ]

46. Work/study harder

try a different approach, or perhaps a different field of competition.

For instance, I wasn't great at most organized sports, I worked hard and was in fairly good shape, but they just weren't my thing. Then I tried fencing and that worked out well for me and I turned out to be pretty good at it, so I enjoyed it and excelled in that sport.

If coaches had insisted we were all equal and that results didn't matter and everyone should play the same amount, no one is cut, etc I probably would have stuck playing basketball or baseball or something, been mediocre and not really enjoyed it (and been resented by my team).

That's a lose lose situation.

Besides, you don't have to necessarily be the best at everything to have high self-esteem. I don't see any problem with encouraging kids to give their best, even if it isn't first place material, and giving them praise for that. But you should still reward the kid who does best, and give him acknowledgment for that.

[Fumesucker]

48. I was three grades ahead in late grammar school and HS..

There was no way in hell I was going to be best at anything athletic, particularly since I was small for my age anyway.

I ended up hating school so much I never even considered going to college, figuring it was going to be just more of the same misery.

[JonQ]

49. Think you would have been happier and better liked

if you'd been made the quarter back and given a hug every play, regardless of the outcome?

If you were three grades ahead I would say be happy to excel at academics. That's more significant in the long term anyway.

[imdjh]

30. Kids have been getting steadily worse behaved since prayer was removed from the public schools.

And the American Family Association has a study to prove it, I am willing to bet. Of course, nothing else has happened to change society in the same period of time, it would be too much to expect the AFA to grasp that.

[Chemisse]

50. LOL - I bet they would assure us

That all the other variables were controlled and the only thing that was being tested was the removal of prayer in the schools.

There was prayer in the schools when I was a child. I certainly don't recall taking it very seriously. It was rote, just like the pledge of allegiance.

[Jackpine Radical]

35. ---and as the Canadian lynx population has declined.

So, if we could only get those Canadians to repopulate the woods with lynx…

[JonQ]

39. Perhaps if they could be trained to prey on

misbehaving children then this whole spanking/non spanking controversy could be resolved.

[BillDU]

20. Gentleman! (who walked in?)

Are you suggesting that people have brains in their asses?

Nyuck Nyuck Nyuck

Just a joke.
I remember getting spanked.
Don't recall that it ever change my mind about anything other than being caught.

[xxqqqzme]

25. Required??

because they didn't learn as 'quickly'? As quickly as compared to what?

[JonQ]

26. As compared to more intelligent children

it's not a popular thing to say but not all kids are equally intelligent and I'm not just talking about those with actual learning disabilities.

Some kids are dumb compared to others.

[imdjh]

32. nevermind

[HughMoran]

33. That and possible undiagnosed ADD tendencies

- there are so many variables - I won't be using this study as a reference guide.

[bread_and_roses]

3. people who hit children are deranged or disturbed

and while i understand and forgive the occasional moment of temper in any parent - as do children, it seems - to use hitting deliberatetely and routinely is sick.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Happyhippychick]

5. My thesis was on spanking and the cognitive harm it causes. If parents knew, they would think twice

But beyond the damage it inflicts cognitively it inflicts even more damage on the bonding process.

[Name removed]

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[Happyhippychick]

12. I get that a lot from spankers. It's okay.

[Name removed]

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[Happyhippychick]

29. Are you talking about a tv show? I'm not familiar. Does that have something to do with spanking?

[bbinacan]

7. My IQ is 134 and I was spanked as a child.

I guess if I had not been spanked, I'd be a genius.

[imdjh]

9. Better to be well behaved and really smart than genius and in prison, no?

[Name removed]

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[JonQ]

19. I have absolute confidence that you could find a positive correlation

between the number of books in a persons home and the overall level of achievement of the parents and children in that home.

So logically stocking a poor persons home with books will make them well educated and successful.

Or, rich people have nice cars. Give a nice car to a poor person and he will become rich.

That is essentially the reasoning involved in this study.

[imdjh]

28. never mind

[imdjh]

37. self delete

[Name removed]

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[imdjh]

40. nevermind

[TexasObserver]

16. Probably means dumb people spank, and they have dumb kids.

Heredity and socialization working together to create stupidity.

[OHdem10]

22. I question this direct correlation. However, for some children

and the operative word is some, corporal punishment can contribute
to a poor self-image. It would make sense that a child with a poor
self image can find it more difficult to learn. This differs from
an innate IQ. In other words, a person with a high IQ and no confidence
in their own ability is not going to achieve to his or her fullest.

IMO, it is not necessarily the kind of discipline but how it is
applied or used matters.

[LeftishBrit]

36. Interesting.

I suspect that one major reason is that smacking children is often a substitute for disciplinary methods that include more talking and reasoning.

[Prophet 451]

41. Still won't matter

Spanking is a subject where people make up their mind, based largely on emotion and thereafter, no research, arguement or miracle will change their mind.

[Happyhippychick]

42. I think that is true in most of the cases but I work with people who have decided to change

methods. In some cases the research has changed their minds or it just hasn't felt right to them. But by and large I do agree that most people who spank do so because it was done to them and they don't see a problem with it, or they just can't control themselves.

[bridgit]

47. That's plenty true; people get stuck on the physical act of 'spanking'...

as being abhorrent to any reasonable, thought to be peace loving people when being raised from within flat...emotionless-silence and social stigma have the potential to become every bit as disruptive to the paced, timely development of IQ and so we get stuck with images of mean, violent, inappropriate people slapping Oliver Twist's head into a wrought iron gate for no good reason while innocently asking, "Please, Sir, may I have some more?" over & over again

As the update notes above, these studies are longitudinal how can they be otherwise? It's not like standing on a bathroom scale; not in a world where some still need an attitude adjustment regardless, and any way you look at it it's more the case that the discouragement would do better to fit the purpose

[gaspee]

44. IMO

People hit children because *they can*

I firmly believe anyone who strikes a child for any reason is guilty of assault, just as they would be if they smacked an adult. Children are not property. People who advocate corporal punishment, IMO, are sick and twisted and need therapy.

People hit children because they can.

James Dobson and his ilk have interesting theories on child rearing. It basically boils down to you should hit children (babies and developmentally disabled children included) to instill fear into them, and to really hurt them - no lesson is learned if it doesn't hurt. Then you should give them affection. Sounds like a *perfect* recipe for creating sado-masochistic people to me. No wonder all those fundies are so kinky, LOL!

The only thing hitting ever does is make the child hate the hitter. Even if they love them, too.

[quaker bill]

45. CP is never necessary

there is no cause for it. If it was useful, perhaps the results would be reversed, but they aren't.

If a relationship with a child has devolved to the point that all one has to offer is physical dominance, there are then far larger issues to be addressed than the incident at hand, regardless of the incident at hand.

Yes I was spanked, even beaten and tossed about a bit, and my IQ is reportedly 148. However, I spent my 20s making alot of stupid personal choices that I perhaps might have avoided otherwise. After 15 years of personal struggle with some of these choices, I managed to work my way through college.

My kids have never been struck, spanked, or even touched in anger. This does not mean that they never made me angry. One is about to earn his PhD and the other is a nationally recognized scholar, both show evidence of being able to make very sound and well considered personal choices.

Think twice, spanking may seem expedient, but it isn't.

[TexasObserver]

51. Well said, and a good testament to sound parenting.

[Yo_Mama]

53. It's extremely difficult to draw conclusions when < 4% of the kids weren't spanked

Note the negative correlation between frequency at 5-9 for 3+ spankings.

In my admittedly limited experience, more children have severe problems who aren't spanked when they should be. My mother was a teacher and her concerns were more degree of adult interaction (for example, she and her colleagues saw a real change in developmental scores when most mothers in their areas went back to work and some kids ended up watching TV all day with Grandma).

And it is only anecdotal, and man, I sure wish I could post this under another screen name. BUT - almost all of the children in my extended family are spanked. My siblings and I were spanked. On average, the IQs are 150 plus, and no, no one is in prison but the ones who weren't spanked. I think the problem is that we all tend to marry people of similar occupations and personalities, and so we are accidentally continuing the genetic quirks, which are extreme hyperactivity and high mental activity.

My brothers and I got several lickings a day in the mid years if I recall correctly. I don't recall that as being traumatic. What I remember as being hideously traumatic were things like being sent to bed, sent to the room, standing in the corner, etc. Anyway, we've all got very high IQs and high achievement levels, stable relationships, etc.

I think spanking can be a highly successful, least-trauma type of behavioral modification tool in many children during the interval when the child is learning to control its own behavior. To work there should be a consistent pattern of warning, warning, whap. In my experience, one has to spank more for the same effect on a child in families with more children, because spanking is best used when children cannot control themselves, and children egg each other on. However, this effect (which does seem to hold in young children) might in itself explain the correlations in the study, because it is well documented that cognitive development is highest in the oldest child who will have the most adult-oriented environment. Not controlling for family environment is a pretty big defect.

While I believe corporal punishment should be used as little as possible, never out of anger, and not at all if one can get away with it, the only three parents I have known who had severely emotionally disturbed children were parents who did not control their children's impulsiveness in early childhood and who did not spank then or later. Instead they used tools like social exclusion, which seemed to disturb their children extremely. The children involved were always difficult, but did not seem to be out-of-range difficult in their early years.

My parents spanked us for only two reasons - outright defiance and physical reaction - and defiance of orders involving our physical safety. I got spanked the most for ignoring safety bounds. The youngest got spanked the most for outright defiance and physical reaction, and the oldest got spanked the least, largely, I think, because he had gotten more control of himself before the rest of us came on the scene.

I am sure that my parents dedicated refusal to let me play with matches, the stove, the fire, candles and the like contributed to my life span. As soon as they let me toddle around, I headed straight for everything electrical or flammable. My father swore I was born a fire bug. That is how I got most of my early spankings.

http://www.mindhacks.com/blog/2007/06/oldest_children_have.html

Note also that younger siblings outclass the older siblings before 12:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/25/us/25sibling.html?ei=5090&en=9544119905ef7fa3&ex=1340424000&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=all