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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 12:44 PM
Original message
Deviled Eggs
{1} I can remember my father saying, "You can only hard boil an egg once," years ago, when he and some other family members were discussing LBJ’s approach to US policy in Vietnam. It was around the time that George Ball was advising the President not to take the military’s recommendations. Ball had paraphrased Carl von Clausewitz when he told Johnson that "to the extent that the response to a move can be controlled, that move is probably ineffective. If the move is effective, it may not be possible to control – or accurately anticipate – the response."

People can agree or disagree on the issues involved with the US response to 9/11 in Afghanistan. However, it is simply impossible to think that we can unboil the egg the Bush-Cheney administration created, when they dropped the ball in Afghanistan and invaded Iraq. Attempting to use the tactics that might have worked yesterday, today, is destined to failure. I wish that President Obama had a George Ball today.

{2} The group "Mobilization for Health Care for All" is planning a series of nonviolent civil disobedience actions across the country, to bring attention to the need for true health care reform. Their activities are based on the sit-ins at lunch counters, etc, from the Civil Rights era. During the primary season and general election, I had noted in my support for Obama that the democratic left would be required to follow the civil right’s movements strategy for dealing with JFK, in order to accomplish our goals. Since the election, I’ve suggested that we need a Poor People’s Campaign, in the style that King planned in ’67 and ’68. This is a good start. For more information, visit this site:

www.mobilizeforhealthcare.org

{3} I think that DUers who have had the "pleasure" of dealing with the corporate media, when advocating for a just cause, can appreciate exactly what Sibel Edmonds is dealing with. Our own experiences may have been on a smaller scale, but the nature of them is the same. Ms. Edmonds, like you and I, is a human being, and thus imperfect at best. But the tactic of accusing her of being "dishonest" when she repeats something, to the best of her memory, that may well have been fed to her without a solid foundation, should not confuse anyone who has either first hand experience, or has invested the time necessary to study the career of public figures such as MKL and RFK.

{4} My sons are nearly done with their work on a book on my experiences with Onondaga Chief Paul Waterman. In a move connected with this, my wife bought me seven new display cases (with a total of 21 shelves), which allowed me to get out of storage several boxes of artifacts that sat with boxes of old files. Combined with my other shelves, I now have over half my collection on display. Shelves include smaller, individual collections from Olduvai Gorge, northern Africa, Europe, and of course the northeast in America.

Their goal is to share the thinking of modern, high-tech society’s older sibling. We are all part of the Human Family, and this generation is confronted with many difficult problems that can only be solved or dealt with by bringing about a different level of consciousness, starting in the United States. There are no magical solutions to the crises we face, only rational thought and common sense.

{5} Last week, a person working for an organization collecting money for democrats running for the US Senate in 2010 became frustrated and then rude while talking to me on the telephone. I was attempting to make clear exactly why I did not a single penny of my money to go for certain democrats in Congress. He said that it was obvious that I was not old enough to know about how LBJ got the Civil Rights legislation passed.

I politely asked him two simple questions. When he answered the first one incorrectly, I provided him with some accurate information on LBJ and Congress. When I then asked him about the Dixie-crats, he made it clear that he did not want to speak to me any more. However, I am confident that he realized I am old enough to remember the Johnson administration quite well.

{6} The lynching of Census worker Bill Sparkman reminds me of William Faulkner’s words in "Intruder in the Dust": "The past is never dead. It’s not even past."
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 12:46 PM
Original message
H2O Man, you are the paprika on DU's soft, mushy center
Bookmarked #3 for later. :yourock:
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
3. Beautifully stated
I love H2O Man's very thoughtful posts.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. Let's kick it
:kick: :bounce:
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Kick
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Shanti Mama Donating Member (625 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
24. : - )
Great response to an ultimately great post.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. I look forward to reaching your post---have to go make deviled eggs
first, darn ya! You set off my craving meter. LOL
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orpupilofnature57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thats a lot ,Faulkner got every man I know from N.Y. that ever read him ,myself
Edited on Sun Sep-27-09 12:54 PM by orpupilofnature57
most of all, , to be a Little ashamed of not being from the south.You do work the noodle man.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
4. Nice post. Note that it isn't literally impossible to unboil (or unscramble) an egg....
It's just thermodynamically hyper-inefficient. :P
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Thanks.
For whatever reason, your response made me think of arguing with my father: while many said it could never be done successfully, a few realized it actually could -- but the effort required made it a hyper-inefficient waste of energy.
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triple point Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. I don't think it is possible, at any level of efficiency, with current technology.
If you mean with virtually unlimited time and resources, I'd agree. :P
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Thanks for not contradicting what I said, but rather something I didn't say.
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triple point Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. You would be very welcome
Edited on Sun Sep-27-09 03:41 PM by triple point
under certain conditions.

:eyes:
What I meant is that according to your conditions, it is theoretically possible to recreate the Big Bang. And obviously without limitations, anything is possible except for those involving logically impossible mutual exclusivity.
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Bette Noir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. Nah, once those proteins are denatured, they stay denatured.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. ... unless forced back into well-ordered shape, which violates no law of physics...
It's just far more energy-costly than it's worth.

Really if you have a scrambled egg, and you want an unscrambled, just feed it to a hen, and wait. (ick factor ignored, of course.)
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
5. k&r.....
"The past is never dead. It’s not even past."....amen
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
6. Excellent post. Recommended.
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TheBigotBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
8. K&R
Brilliant and well argued.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
10. Always interesting reading your posts
Edited on Sun Sep-27-09 02:14 PM by grantcart
Regarding Afghanistan.

The fact is that the President is not trying to reheat an old war.

The President has completely, and correctly redefined the problem and for the first time we are facing it honestly. The problem is an Afghani/Pakistan problem.

It is not a problem that we can walk away from, even if Bush/Cheney has made the problem more difficult.

This is a case where Al Quad actually has potential access to nuclear weapons, and they don't even have to gain access to codes to use them, just unhinge Pakistan/India relations, stroke religious animosity and see what falls out.

The Taliban has seriously overplayed their hand in Pakistan and have united Pakistan behind their traditional and firm secular background. For the first time we are able to work with all responsible parties in the area to deny a safe haven on either side of the border for the Taliban and Al Quad.

That the Taliban has become more brazen and lethal. As Cambodia, Malaysia and other places have shown increases in violence don't only occur when an insurgency is gaining strength but also when they are losing strength and becoming desperate.

A coordinated plan that is based on establish a responsible government in Afghanistan and the remote regions of Pakistan will require and interim period of military assistance. While other institutions in Afghanistan have been disappointments, Senator Levin is correct in his positive assessment of the Afghan Army.

Fortunately President Obama doesn't need George Ball, he has Senator Levin.


edited for typos or as some would term them - bad spelling.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-28-09 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #10
33. I agree that President Obama
is not trying to reheat an old war. Absolutely. But, if we had, for example, a President Gore in office, not only is it possible that the events of 9/11 would not have taken place in the manner they did, but the response in Afghanistan would have been very different. The focus would have been on holding those responsible for 9/11 accountable.

It is extremely difficult to attempt to repair the damage that Bush/Cheney did, in terms of just Afghanistan, and in the context of the entire region. I do not think that the situation in Pakistan is even close to stable, although there have reportedly been successful strikes against certain levels of the al Qaeda leadership in that region. I admit that much of my opinion is based up information that a friend who lived there for many years tells me (the family served there for two generations), which is markedly different from what I get from the media.

Still, President Obama faces significant difficulties, some of which are similar to what both JFK and LBJ faced in Southeast Asia. The original goal of a swift military response has changed to one that includes keeping bases in the region for the present and future, which was a big part of the invasion of Iraq. That removes any clear line of "victory," and adds a burden of nation-building. It is as unlikely that the US military can gain any popular support for the current Afghan government, just as it was impossible to do so in South Vietnam. Corrupt governments do not, by definition, win the hearts and minds of the people.

Also, President Obama is being pressured by military leaders to increase the number of troops in Afghanistan, so that we don't "risk losing the war." That is, of course, an echo from the war in Vietnam. I suspect that, while there was and is a role for the military in Afghanistan, that there is not going to be a military solution there. In fact, the only possibility of resolving the issues at hand have to include repairing the damage done by the military campaigns in Afghanistan, going back to at very least the Soviet invasion.

I'm confident that President Obama understands the dynamics there. But that does not lessen our responsibility, as citizens, to not only speak out, but to actively pressure the administration and Congress to explore non-military routes.
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
13. K & R. nt
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
15. I love this part from number 5 about your phone conversation
with the person that insinuated you might not be old enough to remember the Johnson administration:

"I politely asked him two simple questions. When he answered the first one incorrectly, I provided him with some accurate information on LBJ and Congress. When I then asked him about the Dixie-crats, he made it clear that he did not want to speak to me any more. However, I am confident that he realized I am old enough to remember the Johnson administration quite well."


:rofl:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-28-09 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #15
34. You know, I probably
shouldn't have been offended by that comment, but I found myself thinking, "Do you really want to compare notes and see who knows more about the LBJ presidency?"
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Grassy Knoll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
19. K&R n/t
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sandspur Donating Member (81 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
20. Some thoughts that might go along with this
1) We often use a number of terms to identify the media: mainstream media , msm, mass media, among others. where as the right uses liberal press, even though that is a lie. They use it constantly and consistently, even after it is shown to be a lie. The left needs to do something similar, and I think H2O man uses the best term, corporate media, Make corporate a dirty word.

2) Where are our Glen Becks? Our firebrands that frame the debate? The right gets so much mileage out of corporate media's fixation with false equality that the debate never gets further than right of center. Where are our outrageous people making charges against the right in the most incendiary manner that they have to fight to get the discussion back to the center.They start on the attack, we start on the defense.

3) Further the right goes after big government, which is a unsympathetic target among many. The left needs to do the same thing, pick out out unsympathetic targets: the wall street elite, the health care misery merchants. MBA bureaucrats that produce nothing yet make everything cost more since customers pay their salaries

4) we need to run some focus groups. Find the terms and catch phrases that make good sound bites and stick in people's minds. The right uses propaganda tactics, time to do some advertising research our selves

5) some one else said this on DU a little while back, we need to stop being reasonable. Make them fight us to bring get something reasonable, not start with something reasonable and fight to keep it from being too watered down.o
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gratefultobelib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
21. I've signed up to be part of a sit-in!
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
22. Excellent post, H20 Man. I recommend it highly. However, I do have one quibble:
it seems that there are already people in other parts of the world who are already on another level of consciousness regarding the problems of the world and who recognize and honor our society's older sibling. If you are referring to a collective change in the level of consciousness, I agree that is a worthy goal, but let's not limit it to the United States when there are so many brilliant minds and souls and highly aware people on this planet.



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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-28-09 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #22
30. Oh, absolutely.
My point was simply that our society has moved the furthest from the East, and inhabits a lower plain.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-28-09 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. Can't argue with the "our society . . . , and inhabits a lower plane."
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
23. Thank you for posting this....
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-28-09 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
25. Thanks for the information about the sit-in!!
That link needs to be spread out far & wide, and we need that information all over DU.

Great post, Water Man!

:kick:
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csziggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-28-09 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
26. On {5} Someone from DCSC called me a few weeks ago
And got kind of snippy when I told her that I was not going to contribute to them any more as long as they did not support progressive Democratic candidates and instead gave money to Blue Dogs such as Bill Nelson. I told her until the Campaign Committee group started supporting progressive candidates, I would only give donations to individual candidates that meet my criteria.

Apparently they are running into a lot of us progressives that may have donated in the past but who are fed up with the attitude of any Democratic candidate, even those who do not really support the platform of the Democratic Party. The woman I spoke with sounded pretty frustrated.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-28-09 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
27. You really are the H20 man
and thanks for that cool drink of water.
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HappyCynic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-28-09 01:31 AM
Response to Original message
28. K & R
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-28-09 06:00 AM
Response to Original message
29. Thanks for that Mr Waterman.
I am encouraged by this revisiting of the tactics of the civil rights movement. We seem to have forgotten the power of non violent civil disobedence...it is really the only thing that will work.
If you just protest with signs and stay in the free speech zone they will just ignore it....if you turn to violence they will demonize it....but if many are willing to be arrested for non violent civil disobedience it thoughts a monkey wrench in the system.
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maxpower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-28-09 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
31. Thanks H2O man
I appreciate everyone of your well thought out posts. You are truly a wise and compassionate individual. This site and the world is a better place due to people like you. It is obvious you believe, as many others do, that we need to study the past to see the future. Thanks again.


Peace to you,
Max
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-28-09 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
32. Glad to recommend!
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-28-09 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
35. I've been away from DU far too long. Good people like you keep me coming back.
I really appreciate your earnest efforts on all the issues you addressed in your post. Of particular interest to me, as you know, is Sibel Edmonds. After Larry Franklin walked away a free man like Scooter Libby, convicted but never serving a day in jail, I was ready to write Eric Holder off as being no more committed to justice than John Ashcroft, albeit without the evangelical scariness. It was an extraordinarily depressing event for me and made me disillusioned with pursuing anything related to justice in the political realm for a spell. But I have to give Holder credit for allowing Sibel Edmonds to testify in court, which puts him a step above his Republican predecessors. I'm not sure if the gag order was completely lifted, or just in the case she was allowed to testify, but it's a start to amend the injustice of the past. (Faulkner was damned right about the "past". Thanks for that quote!)

Edmonds' problem is as old as the tree falling in the woods unobserved. Unless MSM is allowed to report the fall, any sound described by witnesses is a rumor. Sorry if my analogy is clumsy, but Sibel Edmonds can only tell her story as she has experienced it, her choice of outlets is limited. As I said before, I've been away from this for a while, physically and emotionally, but since she hasn't had a magazine publish her story since Vanity Fair, I am glad to see her grace a cover, even if it is American Conservative. I'm not sure if that's the reason why some here have taken to calling her "dishonest", but I commend you for defending her.
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