Why is declaring Detroit a shit hole a national pastime?

[Barack_America]

This is a response to this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6640272&mesg_id=6640272


And, more specifically, to TIME's coverage of Detroit's "horrible decline".
http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1882089_1850973,00.html

Don't get me wrong, it's nice to see the struggles of our country's former manufacturing cities get some attention, but what's with the obsession with Detroit? I admit that Detroit got a head start, but are manufacturing cities across this country not suffering similar fates? Does nobody care about Cleveland? Or Camden?

And, FYI to the nation's media, thanks for your interest in Detroit's decline, but the truth is you've missed the worst of it and should start being honest about that in your reporting.

Here's a pic from TIME's slide show.



William Livingstone House
Constructed in 1893 in the once-elegant Brush Park neighborhood, this home, designed by architect Albert Kahn, was moved from its original location several years ago by preservationists who hoped to preserve it. It was demolished last year.

Here's the big story in Detroit this year.

The Book Cadillac Hotel went from this:



to this



http://arisingimages.com/blog/weddings-at-the-westin-book-cadillac-hotel-in-detroit/555/

The demolition of one house a bigger story than a $200 million renovation?

If you say so, TIME. :eyes:

So point and laugh all you want, but remember that Detroit has always been only the tip of the iceberg. It may be comforting to look at images of Detroit and assume blight like that will never affect your city. Unfortunately, I assure you the comfort is false, particularly if your city depends on working folks having work, which I assume it does.

[stray cat]

1. What has been the trend in Detroit - growth and renovation?

[Barack_America]

13. The trend downtown has been positive.

A lot of new construction and renovations.

The neighborhoods are likely another story. The continued job loss and sub-prime mortgage crisis is likely hitting hard there, just as it is throughout the country.

[FormerDittoHead]

2. I don't know about that...

I recall one Republican Senator in defending Bush's Iraq policy, saying that the troop deaths in Iraq circa 2005 were lower than the murder rate of "the fair city of Detroit"...

So you DO have people on your side!

[MineralMan]

3. My only prejudice against Detroit has to do with

their baseball team, which is poised to knock the Twins out of the playoffs. The Bastids! :evilgrin:

[Viking12]

8. That was my response too. I have nothing against Detroit, except for the next 4 days.....

GO TWINS!!!

[Odin2005]

124. Don't even think about, it bastards!

:)

[Captain Hilts]

4. Because Pittsburgh ran their poor out of town and Detroit didn't? nt

[dugaresa]

10. i remember my friends here in Pittsburgh who were in school one day and gone the next

one of my best friend's parents just packed the car and drove to California and they left their house to foreclosure.

That was a horrible time and the exodus from Pittsburgh has this bizarre side effect, Steeler Bars that are almost everywhere I have ever traveled.

No one ran the folks out, they left to survive and some at times have returned when they could.

[Captain Hilts]

14. There are various ways to run folks out of town. True about the Steeler bars.

Mum's from Johnstown.

But Detroit's underclass is still there and visible. Pittsburgh's is not. Folks talk about what a great city it is now.

Utica, Toledo, etc. have lost population and wealth, but still have large, visible underclasses like Detroit has.

[road2000]

145. I'll second your comment about Toledo. n/t

[leeroysphitz]

188. Yeah Toledo's a real dump.

:evilgrin:

[SteelPenguin]

169. When was the last time you were in Pittsburgh?

What do you mean by they're not visible in Pittsburgh?

The underclass is still here. It's not like there aren't bad neighborhoods, or poor people here. Overall Pittsburgh is doing better than Detroit because Pittsburgh crashed 30 years ago, and has had 3 decades to rebuild and diversify their economy. Not because of some draconian measure of removing the poor from the city.

Maybe because the city is doing better, and it is a fairly affordable place, that people are able to live much better on less here than in other cities.

[SteelPenguin]

170. How did Pittsburgh do that?

How did the city run their poor out of town, precisely?

Who is it that lives in Garfield now? Or Lincoln Lemington? Or Wilkinsburg?

[EmilyAnne]

174. Or the Hill District, North Side, Manchester, Southside Slopes, Stanton Heights, East Liberty,

Sharpsburg, Etna, Millvale, Shaler, etc.

There are so many working class neighborhoods here and so many "underclass" people.
I'm certain that a lot of people left, but to say that Pittsburgh got rid of its poor is extreme.
If anything, those who could left Pittsburgh for the suburbs.
The underclass couldn't afford to relocate.

[BlooInBloo]

5. (a) It is a shithole, (b) I'm sure southerners like to mention it a little more than others.

[Barack_America]

11. That's your opinion.

But I have seen with my own eyes areas of North Philly and Camden that are far worse than anything Detroit has to offer. And yet Detroit is constantly singled out.

And thanks for calling my hometown a shit hole.

[BlooInBloo]

15. (shrug) I've lived in shitholes of my own. You're not unique in that regard...

And yes, most shitholes have some nice(r) sections - nobody denies that.

[Romulox]

20. Seattle has "also ran" syndrome in a big way, which is why they like to pick on Detroit.

Seattle is like a giant, ghostly white gated community. A shithole of a different sort, but massively overrated nonetheless. What they say about Detroit in Seattle pales in comparison to what they say about Seattle in Vancouver and SF.

http://www.eljefe.net/seattlesucks.html

http://seattle.shmeng.com/

[BlooInBloo]

28. Hm. I wonder why I see so many varying brown faces on a daily basis?

Presumably you're talking about not Seattle proper (where I live), so much, as the suburbs (where I don't live).

[Barack_America]

52. You'll see a lot of white faces in downtown Detroit on a daily basis too.

Which is an improvement to be sure, but it says more about white collar jobs returning to the city than anything else. Whites by and large do not live in the city, they work there. In the evenings they return to the "safety" of their white suburbs. Sounds like this make be reversed in Seattle. You may see brown faces in the city, but can those brown faces afford to live there? Furthermore, are they encouraged to?

[lumberjack_jeff]

61. Ouch. I moved from Seattle proper in '85. I still love western washington

... but that seattle rant rings true.

[Romulox]

18. Bloo has paraded around with that "Union Yes!" avatar for years

while proclaiming he will never buy an American made car. (I notice he has recently softened that stance somewhat.)

I think irony is his thing. :shrug:

[BlooInBloo]

22. "proclaiming he will never buy an American made car" - That's false, actually....

Not buying a car from an American car company is substantially closer to the truth.

And I don't recall "softening" on that - although it is perfectly conceivable, assuming the existence of cars from American car companies that I like.

[Romulox]

25. You forgot to *attempt* to reconcile this stance with your "Union Yes!" avatar.

:silly:

[BlooInBloo]

29. No I didn't. There's no need to.

[Romulox]

31. Right. Because you wear it ironically. nt

[BlooInBloo]

33. No, because there's no point - since you've already shown your inability...

to correctly repeat what I think.

[Romulox]

36. LOL. Your brilliant ability to reconcile the irreconcilable would be wasted

on those bound by mere logic, I'm sure.

[amandabeech]

54. Thanks for the info Romulox! n/t

[spoony]

82. Absolutely

but I wouldn't call it irony. Irony usually requires some amount of wit. I'm thinking more of ugly things that dwell under bridges. Or, possibly, what one gets when one shoves their hand in a wool foot protector and draws a face on it, if you follow me.

[Romulox]

118. I've often wondered if Mr. Bloo lives in the Fremont area.

Perhaps somewhere on or around N. 36th Street...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fremont_Troll

[Baikonour]

140. I lived in Philly for 9 years, and you are absolutely correct.

Philly, to me, is bar none the biggest shit hole in America.

A shame, too.

[Captain Hilts]

16. Seattle plowed its slums down. "Cinderella Liberty" about Norfolk was filmed in Seattle

because Norfolk wasn't shitty enough.

[BlooInBloo]

24. That could well be true. Presumably it was before my time here?

[girl gone mad]

147. Real nice.

You managed to insult Southerners and Detroit in one trite sentence. Why not go for the trifecta with a little California denigration, too?

[Recursion]

6. Because they chose the Redskins to break their losing streak? NT

[ecstatic]

7. I didn't get that vibe from that other thread

Or from the Time article. But I forwarded the article to some people I know from Detroit and I wonder if they have the same angry reaction that you have? I guess I'll know soon...

[Barack_America]

19. It gets old. My question is sort of a rhetorical question...

I know the reason that Detroit is singled out. Detroit overbuilt from day 1. They wanted to be Chicago. It obviously didn't pan out. But the result is a lot of grand buildings that have fallen into disrepair. However, the assumption that many of these buildings, such as the train station, were once thriving is false. Detroit offers a nice visual of the decline of our nation's manufacturing base, but the obsessive focus on the visual misses the real point, IMO.

Detroit may be a spectacular example to look at, but the decline is happening everywhere.

[Barack_America]

21. Also, I think that I can predict your friend's responses.

If your friends are from the suburbs and have not lived in the city, they will most likely declare it a shit hole.

If your friends have spent time living in the city, they will most likely defend it.

That's how it seems to go. And that's also a big part of Detroit's decline. The whites took the money out of the city and left it, and those who could not afford to leave, to die.

[Carni]

46. Lived in Suburbs of Detroit for 40 years

Worked IN the city and now live in the south (not by choice)

Couple of things about the Detroit AREA since relocating...

All areas of the country have their issues, but in all my travels I have not encountered the level of rudeness, faux coolness and the "I have arrived" attitude that seemed to be common place in the metropolitan Detroit SUBURBS.

I think there was an arrogant attitude generated for so long by the car companies that it created bad blood with people in other areas of the country.

JMO!

[Barack_America]

53. Move to the East Coast.

You will long for the Midwest.

;)

I think your take is interesting. Beyond the "reservedness" that Midwesterners are noted for, I think there is absolutely a great deal of smugness and falseness in the Detroit suburbs. But, on the other hand, what other result could be achieved by so deliberately segregating the races as is done in metro Detroit? It's not natural to have a city that is 90% black surrounded on all sides by cities that are 90% white. Such is the case with Pontiac, Detroit and Flint.

[amandabeech]

59. I moved to the East Coast long ago and I still long for the Midwest.

Not from the Detroit suburbs, so I can't comment.

[Carni]

70. I definitely agree with you about the weird segregation factor

Totally agree that segregation (and like you said contrived in this case) may very well be a huge factor in the vibe in the burbs.

Smugness is exactly the word I was looking for.

I think if you couple in the amount of people all over the country who have at one time or another bought a lemon designed and made in Detroit, that they couldn't get any satisfaction out of...
and that is not to say they are all lemons, they aren't and that is not to say all foreign cars are fantastic--they aren't. But I think it's possible that you end up with this get even/pick on Detroit result.

[Romulox]

55. That's silly.

In the first place, the "metropolitan Detroit SUBURBS" (sic) are as different from one another as whichever cities you've visited are different from Detroit.

[Barack_America]

60. That's an excellent point.

And when I speak of the Detroit suburbs, I am speaking only of Oakland County.

[Carni]

72. Other than a handful of cities it's Conservative

Oakland County is one big bastion of Republicans -- Ferndale, Royal Oak and Southfield are blue (Royal Oak may not be these days not sure) but the rest of it is GOP heaven.

Wayne other than Detroit and Dearborn (and let's not forget Dearborn endorsed Bush in 2000) is about the same (Northville, Novi etc all GOP heaven)

The east side can be a mixed bag.

Yeah they're "different" but mostly GOP strongholds and IMO quite cut throat.

[Romulox]

73. Funny how all these Conservatives keep getting out-voted, isn't it?

We have a Democratic gov., 2 Democratic Senators, and have gone for the Democrat in the Presidential election something like 5 times in a row. How do you expect we convinced all these conservatives to stay home on all of those various election days? :shrug:

BTW, Wayne County is among the largest counties in the US. Do you really think it's fair to reduce your analysis of Wayne County to "Detroit and Dearborn" and "other than Detroit and Dearborn"? Makes it sound to me like you're not really an expert in the area. :shrug:

[Carni]

80. You also have a GOP controlled state senate

I am just stating what I observed while living in the state (in the suburbs BTW) for over 40 years and while working for one of the big three for 20 years.

It is not IMO fair for "Detroit" proper to be blamed for all the ills of the state of Michigan and the economic decline there (which I believe was the point the OP was making)

I was simply pointing out that in my experience Republicans (as usual) basically ruined the metro Detroit area with the selfish way in which they have conducted themselves for the last three or more decades.

[bain_sidhe]

87. Reapportionment had a huge effect

I'm in western Wayne. We had a Democratic Representative (my beloved Lynn Rivers) until the Publican-dominated legislature handed the district to McCotter through redrawing the districts to favor Pubs. Remember, Michigan's delegation was evenly split until the 2002 mid-terms - the first election after the redistricting. Then it was (IIRC) 9 to 6 in Pub's favor.

[blue_onyx]

84. Your assessment is wrong

Wayne county is not conservative. Obama won the county by 72%. How can a city endorse Bush? Also, Novi is in Oakland County, not Wayne.

Oakland County may have been strongly Republican at one time but the county has voted for Kerry, Obama, and Gov. Granholm (both in 2002 and 2006).

[Barack_America]

88. Oakland County may vote Dem now, but it's still solidly racist.

But hopefully OC coming back into the fold politically means that racial reconciliation is on its way. I don't know. Or it could mean that places like Watertucky, Clarkston, etc. are losing their voting power in the county.

[blue_onyx]

91. I don't think that's a true statement

Can I ask, do you live here or have you in the past? I think, based on some of the other comments, that people tend to be misinformed about Detroit.

To call an entire area "solidly racist" is inaccurate. The county voted for a black man in 2008 by 15% (57-42). That wouldn't happen in a "solidly racist" area. Sure, there are racists but that's true about every county and every state in this country.

[Barack_America]

94. Born and raised.

In Oakland County.

And you're right, I guess that Royal Oak and Southfield may be notable exceptions...and probably parts of Troy. But as for the rest of it, I'll stick with my statement.

When the county votes Patterson out and puts some money into Pontiac, I'll reconsider my stance. Voting in a national election is one thing, but I think that local politics are a better indicator of how one truly feels about ones neighbors.

[blue_onyx]

97. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree

I don't get the love affair with Patterson. I'm happy he's not running for governor. I think he would've taken a lot of votes from Oakland county that would've otherwise gone to the Democrat. Gov. Patterson is the last thing Michigan needs right now.

[Barack_America]

99. You may find this interesting.

http://results.enr.clarityelections.com/MI/Oakland/9047/13955/en/md.html?cid=0106

Now, you could argue that the red core in the middle are people voting Republican in their economic interests (i.e. the Bloomfield Hills area), but the rest of the county? Those outlying areas, particularly in Oxford and Orion Twp., which depend on GM? Not so much. That's race, IMO.

Compare and contrast with the vote for Levin (who won by nearly 30 percentage points, twice as much as Obama)

http://results.enr.clarityelections.com/MI/Oakland/9047/13955/en/md.html?cid=0107

[blue_onyx]

102. Thanks for posting

but I don't necessarily think it's race. They are two different people. Not all Democrats are the same. I don't vote for all Democrats. For example, I don't like my state representative. Levin is very well known and well liked person. I think a comparison to Gov. Granholm or Sen. Stabenow might be a better comparison (although still difficult since neither was running last year) since they aren't quite the established member of our state.

The areas that showed the differences between the Levin and Obama are the most likely to racist (northern and western Oakland county). I guess I don't even think about those areas of Oakland county. When I think of Oakland county, I think Troy, Novi, Southfield, and Royal Oak. I don't think I've even heard of some of the cities/townships (ex: Groveland Twp). I don't think it's accurate to judge a county based it's most rural, least populated cities/townships.

[Barack_America]

103. Ah, and I am from Northern Oakland county.

I spent most of my time in Waterford and Clarkston, but have lived in Southfield, West Bloomfield, Royal Oak and Clawson for shorter periods of time.

So there, you go, our bias difference. And, as usual, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

:hi:

[Carni]

98. I agree with you

Southfield is most definitely solidly blue (and at this point has a mostly African American populace so it would be hard for that city to be racist against themselves.)

I would think Ferndale is blue because it's quite Liberal...Royal Oak probably is and perhaps West Bloomfield might be in pockets (not sure about that)Oak park also has a large African American populace--Berkeley may be blue?

With that said the Walled Lake and Waterford and Milford types...Farmington, Farmington Hills,
White lake, Clarkston, Lake Orion, Rochester, Northville, Bloomfield Hills, Birmingham are not exactly bastions of racial acceptance -- and let's not forget Plymouth, Livonia and neighboring Redford (believe Livonia and Plymouth is Wayne county?) Livonia is known for it's racist antics.

I have been told on this thread that I am full of crap and perhaps things have changed in the last 3 years in the area, but I find that hard to believe esp with the economy in the state it is in.

[Barack_America]

101. Check out post #99.

Looks like we may have reason to be proud of Waterford, Farmington Hills and even Walled Lake.

Clarkston, Orion and Oxford though... :thumbsdown:

I admittedly lump Ferndale and Huntington Woods in with Royal Oak. Not fair, I know.

[bain_sidhe]

109. Small quibble

I'm in Plymouth. It went for Obama, as did most of McCotter's district. I think it went for Kerry, too, but I'm not sure about that.

That said, I'll agree that the actual population of Plymouth is remarkably monotone. I've lived in more racially diverse places, and liked them better, but my hubby's from here (he's also a liberal!), so here we are, here we stay.

[Romulox]

117. Neighboring Canton seems quite diverse, however. nt

[bain_sidhe]

122. Yup! Low on Latinos though

but lots and lots of different traditions and ethnicities in Canton. Of course, it's HUGE, compared to Plymouth, which was divided from Northville many years ago. But Canton is quite the happening place - one of the fastest growing communities in the nation a few years ago.

African Americans, various Oriental and Middle Eastern groups and some Eastern European groups all call it home. As well as the usual "generic American mutts" (and that's not derogatory, I am one, it's just a recognition that most of us "white people" have mixed ancestry). Not too many Latinos, that I've seen, though.

[Carni]

240. Yes, Canton is NT

[Carni]

95. "Watertuckey" lol

I thought "Walled Tuckey" had the market cornered on that nickname!

BTW I agree with you about the MOSTLY racist thing in OC (at least it was that way pre-06)

[Romulox]

116. I don't necessary agree, but L Brooks Patterson certainly knows how to blow the racist dog whistle

:shrug:

[Barack_America]

136. I'm biased to the N. Oakland side of things.

And I think the election data backs up my claim of racism in this area.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6646258&mesg_id=6647460


I unfortunately grew up with a lot of personal links to Patterson and his political cronies, so there's that too.

[Carni]

93. Must have changed after 2005

All I heard for 9 years was how horrible Clinton was (starting during the election) and then how horrible Gore was when he was running and then how wonderful George Bush was for at least 5 years.

[blue_onyx]

96. Clinton won Oakland county in 1996

and Gore won it in 2000 too. It was much closer in those elections though. I guess you attract Republicans....or maybe they are just more vocal.

[Fire1]

202. I blame that on Coleman Young. That was his single and

biggest mistake, imo. You'd think a man with as much street smarts as he had, would know better. Truly, his mouth AND his ego got in the way.

[Doc_Technical]

9. Blame it on "The Kentucky Fried Movie"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g09GtnWdBjc

[meegbear]

12. We're jealous of your freedoms

[Captain Hilts]

23. Good one!

[FarCenter]

17. It's probably because Detroit is so closely identified with the US auto industry

Cleveland may be a shit hole too, but nobody remembers why Cleveland exists at all. It's been a long time since the Cuyahoga caught on fire, and that was the last news out of Cleveland.

Sure, we all know that Pittsburgh is a steel making town. But steelmaking has also been so over so long that it has faded from memory.

[Captain Hilts]

27. The mayor's hair also caught fire that year. Toledo, Buffalo, Rochester & Utica deflect some of it.

[Art_from_Ark]

159. I think the last news out of Cleveland

was when they opened the Rock-n-Roll Hall of Fame

[Romulox]

26. You'd have to be a fool not to see that much of it is coded racism.

LOL that our cut-rate Tim Wise upthread is such an eager participant! :rofl:

[Captain Hilts]

30. True. And anti-unionism. Detroit - even during WWII - had union and race riots. nt

[Barack_America]

32. "This is what blacks do to a city, if you let them".

That's the sentiment I grew up hearing in Detroit's suburbs.

Do you really think that's what people around the country think to? (honest question)

I always thought it was more classist, in the anti-labor sense. As in a national excuse why getting rid of our manufacturing jobs was okay, i.e. manufacturing = Detroit = Yuck! Who wants it?!

[Romulox]

38. I 100% think that is what people around the country are talking about.

It's the most thinly veiled code language I've heard. Detroit serves as the direct modern equivalent of what my sharecropping great, great grandfather was told if he complained about his lot: "At least you're not a N&*(R!"

[Barack_America]

48. Unfortunately in the suburbs, it is not thinly veiled.

That is a direct quote from no less than half a dozen of my own family members.

It's a fucking shame. How can a city survive when it and its inhabitants are so openly hated by their neighbors? The Detroit suburbs are a cancerous place, especially good ol' Oakland County under Brooksie. My God, but I couldn't wait to get out of there. Never was I happier, living in the city and escaping the racism. I was really too young to understand it then, but it was the soul-crushing racism I fled. I honest to God still get panic attacks driving through "just so" suburbs. I know I was on the so-called "upside" of racism, but really, there's no upside if you're in-tuned to what's going on. At least not emotionally.

[Romulox]

51. Things are changing in Wayne County. But the people here have been put under siege

by their fellow Americans. Do you think that the national economic policy under Reagan, Clinton, Bush I and 2, and now Obama are designed to ameliorate the problems of Detroit?

I mean, the President went on TV to defend the taxpayer supplied Wall Street bonuses, talking about the impact to Manhattan ( :wtf: ) Did you hear the President mention the impact of forcing two of our biggest employers into bankruptcy while simultaneously funneling trillions to the banksters?

Neither did I. So not JUST racism--I suspect racism is merely a tool of those who desire a cull of the middle class.

[blue_onyx]

43. Yes, race and class

Detroit and New Orleans are seen as poor, black cities. That's why nobody seems too concerned about rebuilding them.

[Jetboy]

34. There are a lot of sick people who just get off on other people's

misery. I see it all of the time and it makes me sad.

BTW, I am a Chicago Bears fan but I was very happy that the Lions won yesterday. I won't be so happy if they win next week though.

[Barack_America]

37. If they win next week the locusts will surely come.

A Lion's victory would be nice, but Armageddon would be a bummer, so I'm staying neutral.

;)

[Jetboy]

40. I think that a Tigers World Series Championship would be

great for the city and state. It might even shut the haters up and make the media focus on positive things going on around Detroit. Good luck to the Tigers since my team is toast already!

[blue_onyx]

35. I don't get it either

There are, indeed, many northern cities that have experienced the same deterioration and population loss that Detroit has experienced. Who knows what makes Detroit stand out for criticism. Maybe it's the association with unions or the auto industry. It could be the fact that Detroit was once up there with NYC, LA, Chicago and has fallen so far. Your guess is as good as mine.

I guess some people need to make themselves feel better by criticizing others. They think it can never happen to them and their city. Population trends change and may change in our favor again.

I hope more buildings are renovated like the Book Cadillac. Many of the buildings are great and should be saved if possible.

[MidwestRick]

39. The problem with Detroit...

...has always been the way the city council and mayor's office have fought for control of my beloved hometown. Hipefully Mayor Bing can get things to change, but I'm not holding my breath.

Oh by the way...thank goodness the Lions finally won a game.

[Barack_America]

44. MidwestRick, if you don't mind my asking...

...did you grow up in the city or the suburbs?

I have high hopes for Bing. Kilpatrick was a set back. I lived in the city under Archer and that was a great time. I know he wasn't perfect, but he was able to get people to think differently about the city, at least the people who lived there. The perception of suburbanites still has not recovered.

[MidwestRick]

138. I grew up iin the Northern burbs.

Still have family in Rochester Hills and the Romeo area. Detroit was always a place we would go as kids to see concerts at Hart Plaza or the State Theater. My wife grew up at 7 and Woodward. We recently drove through her old neighborhood and of the 30 or so homes on the block, only three looked to be inhabited.

[mopinko]

41. it's a dog whistle.

detroit=black people.

[Romulox]

42. ayup. nt

[Octafish]

104. Ding! Ding! Ding!

And it's heard nationwide.

[Beer on a stick]

45. It's boring, ugly and decrepit. You're welcome.

[Barack_America]

50. When's the last time you've been?

:shrug:

[tXr]

47. The renovation of the Book-Cadillac is beautiful.

Ironically, sunbelt cities may face a more uncertain future due to excessive automobile dependency (no mass transit, few accommodations for pedestrians/bicyclists) and climate change (lack of water).

[Barack_America]

49. Well, you know what they say...learn from history or repeat it.

That's the main reason why I think the nation points and laughs at Detroit to its own detriment.

[bain_sidhe]

63. and regarding sunbelt cities

I will admit to a small degree of schadenfreude over the fact that all those people who bailed on Michigan for sunbelt cities are now facing problems from the effect of climate change. I'm not blind to the suffering, there's just a tiny voice in the back of mind asking "who's so smart now, huh?"

(And, no, those of you who moved to the sunny (and hot, and dry) Southwest, you can't have our Great Lakes. You want Great Lakes water, you can damn well move back here to get it.)

[ellie]

89. Damn straight!

[ddeclue]

56. Pave the damned roads and clean up the blight if you want to fix the impression.

I spent three months working there the winter of 1999-2000 and my basic impression was that it was a horrible dreary place to live and the roads were crap and a lot of Detroit looked like a war zone w abandoned buildings and a lot of blight.


On edit: To be fair Detroit's not the only example of this in America but NYC has largely fixed its mess.

Other areas that come to my mind: New Orleans, Charleston and St. Louis/East St. Louis.

[Barack_America]

64. The blight is being cleared up, but media such as TIME choose not to show it.

They will continue to search for and publish pictures of the blight no matter if that tells the true story of Detroit or not. Because a crumbling Detroit is all the nation wants to hear about. For example, with the Livingston House shown in the OP, look at the framing there. The structure was obviously unsalvageable, yet Detroit is to be criticized for demolishing it? Isn't that clearing up blight? There are beautiful victorians, older than the Livingston house, crumbling all over Philadelphia. Why no media mention of that?

[JVS]

67. It probably didn't help that from about a year ago until the GM bankruptcy, Detroit...

was playing up how urgently it needed the government to bail out the auto companies. It's hard to think a city is doing ok, when the local paper it constantly shilling for a few dominant companies that are in bad shape.

[Barack_America]

71. Those newspapers are published for suburban Detroiters.

Who, by and large, hate the city just as much as they depend on the auto industry.

So it's really no surprise to me that the Free Press and News would be complicit in degrading the city.


ETA: But it does get to your point (I think) of Detroit having no real allies in the media.

[Romulox]

76. Manhattan got trillions with no bad PR. Strange.

:hi:

[JVS]

79. Well, if it had people advocating on its behalf like in this post...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5473280#5476133

one might get the impression that things are going poorly there.

[Romulox]

108. An argument ad hominem. How out of character for you!

:silly:

[JVS]

120. It's not ad hominem. If people say "the shit is hitting the fan here" enough...

they really shouldn't be surprised that people think that the place has been coated in excrement.

[Romulox]

128. So Time magazine defines reality for you, does it?

Do you spend a lot of time in Dentist's offices?

[JVS]

164. nope. But you can't have it both ways. You can't claim that things are fine and that the area is..

suffering horribly at the same time. The statements contradict.

[Romulox]

176. My only "claim" is that you don't give a shit about Detroit or its people.

Your assessment of our "plight" is of zero interest to me, nor have I said a word about "suffering" to you. This is a favorite topic of yours, but I've never seen a constructive post from you with regard to Detroit or working people in general, and I don't expect to see any in the future.

So again, why is it that you think your opinion on the matter is of interest to me or anyone else? Perhaps you'd like to hook up with the fellow down thread who prefers Compton to any section of Detroit. You could talk-story together about how terrified you are, even thinking about going to Detroit! :silly:

[JVS]

180. It's only you whom I don't give a shit about. I like Detroit just fine and I like visiting it...

every few years to see the Auto show.

So is your official party line now that Detroit is just fine, or is it that Detroit is the place where an economic holocaust is taking place and its citizens are the most wretched of victims?

[Romulox]

181. So the feelings mutual. See you on the next Detroit bashing thread! nt

[JVS]

121. Dupe

[bain_sidhe]

66. That was Engler's "legacy"

One of the first things Granholm did was put money into repairing roads that Engler had neglected for his 12 years in office. Had a lot of people complaining over the traffic back ups, and we're clearly not done yet, but travel is a good deal better now than it was in 1999-2000.

The blight is more of a city-by-city thing. Archer did some stuff along those lines, but I'm not sure if Kilpatrick did anything at all.

[Barack_America]

68. That and closing down all of the state's mental health facilities.

Engler, whadda guy. Perfect example of the Republican "contract with America".

:puke:

[Carni]

83. Engler SUCKED

And so did Spence Abraham.

Literally a couple of tools!

[Fire1]

203. I call him the Pillsbury dough boy. n/t

[Carni]

243. Pillsbury guy was at least cute!

Engler was more like jabba the hut IMO lol

Now that pig is the head of EDS (I think unless that changed)

[Romulox]

75. No offense, but do you get too many people telling you how great Orlando, Fla is?

My father told me never to take advice from a man, unless he was doing better than you. Unless the solutions to Detroit's problems lie in a Goofy suit, I don't think Orlando is a very good example to follow. :hi:

[damntexdem]

57. Because the Lions didn't win any games last year.

But Detroit is turning it around now, because the Lions just defeated the Washington Racists on Sunday.

[Barack_America]

58. Out of curiosity, for those who have unrecc'd this...

Could you explain your reasoning.

I'd be interesting in hearing it.

Thanks.

[raccoon]

62. Maybe yall Detroiters and we Southerners can form a support group. nt

[Barack_America]

69. Maybe we should. We both seem to be getting the short stick...

...when it comes to America's stereotypes.

[bain_sidhe]

92. OTOH, my husband once advocated "celebrating" the stereotype...

At the height of the Patriot Act furor, he wanted to make a t-shirt with a "regular" person talking to a "terrorist" with the caption, "You don't scare me, I'm from Detroit." The only reason he didn't make it was he didn't want to offend anybody with his depiction of a "terrorist."

[Carni]

85. LOL No kidding! NT

[JVS]

65. I don't know why. It beats the shit out of Atlanta or the South in general

[alfredo]

106. In Detroit you could be what you want to be. If you want to be a cross dressing

witch, go for it. It wasn't looked down on, it was appreciated.

[hunter]

74. It's a threat by the corporate kleptocracy.

Don't make trouble or this could happen to you.

[Romulox]

77. I'm in the middle of the "Shock Doctrine". The thesis fits the facts. nt

[JPZenger]

78. Excellent article on "Ruin Porn" - showing worst side of Detroit

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2009/09/on_the_media_looks_at_detroit.html

[Barack_America]

81. +100

Dammit, I'm so mad I can no longer edit the OP.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Seems a lot of people actually familiar with the city are bothered by TIME's portrayal.

The sad thing is that one of my very favorite blogs probably began the current "Detroit ruin porn" fad.

http://www.detroitblog.org/

Fortunately the author has moved well away from that subject (and into the neighborhoods) in recent years.

[firedupdem]

86. Rec'd...I get sick of Detroit being portrayed so horribly. n/t

[Liberal_in_LA]

130. not just Detroit, Cleveland, New Jersey, are other areas that get negative press

I'm sure there are others.

[ellie]

90. I read through this

thread and I didn't know the Lions won yesterday. GO LIONS! And GO RED WINGS! The Detroit Red Wings are the hands-on favorite to win the Stanley Cup every year, no matter what. The Wings won in 2008 and were in the finals last year, losing to the Penguins. People like to bash Detroit because they have never been there. Those people suck.

[eggman67]

100. We're having our AG in Detroit next year

http://www.ag2010.us.mensa.org//AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home11


Looking forward to it.

[alfredo]

105. Detroit was the engine that drove America for many years. It is now the symbol

of our decline. Let's hope it will become a symbol of our resurrection.


I used to live here:

Many a day I'd sit in the window above the doorway, tripping or smoking a doobie. Had a good time there. Some of the MC5 lived there.

They call it the El Moore, but we called it the Alexandrine. I lived in the basement apartment to the left of the doorway. The tree is covering the window. There was a Mortuary Science building to the left. When I moved up to the first floor an exhaust fan blew right into my window.

[Barack_America]

119. Looks like the El Moore has gone condo

http://www.modeldmedia.com/neighborhoods/placestomove/elmoore.aspx

$300,000 a piece? Doubt they'll get that though.

My beloved Park Shelton has gone condo too. And to think I used to live there for $500 a month, utilities included. That was only 10 years ago! Things change fast.

http://www.theparkshelton.com/

[alfredo]

148. The building was full of junkies, hookers and drifters. I was one of the drifters.

It's probably not near as fun as it was. We had some Black Panthers, some of John Sinclair's people, and and a dead man. He was evicted when he started smelling worse than the rest of us.


After a few years I ended up in the Old Boones Farm Commune on Avery. The building is gone, but I bet the rats remain. They never bothered me much until they ate my stash.


Friends around me kept getting killed, soon I found I was one of the last standing. I was a cab driver, so I was living on borrowed time. When some woman swan dived out of a hotel window, landing a few yards from me, I decided I've had enough. It wasn't her crushed body that did it, it was the open window, the terra cotta walls inside and the curtains blowing out. I left.

[Barack_America]

151. Wow. That's quite a story.

There's a guy who compiles stories like this for his blog.

http://www.detroitblog.org/

I love hearing about the Detroit that existed before my time. Thanks for sharing your story with me.

[alfredo]

156. I posted to a Detroit blog a year ago about a guy who threw a pie in the face

of the Maharaji Ji. Later followers of the "guru" found him and bashed his head in with a hammer.

http://corridortribe.com/obits/pat_halley/pat_halley.htm
http://corridortribe.com/obits/images/pat_halley/pat_halley_freep_obit_112607.htm

The story about the attack on Pat.
http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/fifthestate2.htm
I worked with Pat at the Fifth Estate for a short time. Pat was with a street theater group called the Shadow People. Dwight, Jeanie (of Crumb's Detroit Comix Featuring Jeanie) Pat and maybe one or two others. I think all of them are now dead. Maybe Jeanie is still alive, but I don't see how.

As I remember, the operation took six hours. They put a metal plate in his skull. It changed him, it really did.

[Initech]

107. I go to Detroit all the time. I have seen the transformation with my own eyes.

Hell I was just there not even a week and a half ago. There's some nice areas like Royal Oak and Ferndale but once you get downtown, past 8 mile, that's where you really begin to see it.

[Romulox]

110. No offense, but you don't know what you're talking about.

"There's some nice areas like Royal Oak and Ferndale but once you get downtown, past 8 mile, that's where you really begin to see it."

1) Royal Oak and Ferndale are different cities from Detroit.

2) The divide in Metro Detroit is more east/west than north/south. There are plenty of wonderful places to live "past 8 mile." The "8 mile divide" stuff refers to a very specific geographical division, not metro-Detroit as a whole. Telegraph road and the Southfield Freeway are as significant boundary lines as 8 mile.

[Initech]

111. I had to drive through downtown once and was afraid to get off the freeway.

My brother lives in downtown near the school, so yeah there are nice areas in downtown itself but still even it's like LA, all the shitty areas give the place a bad name no matter what. And even the shitty areas aren't as bad as you think.

[Romulox]

112. Sounds like your the nervous type. Most of LA is just as bad or worse.

Are you afraid to go to LAX? What a post-apocalyptic drive that can be!

You sound like someone who's driven the freeways here. But you don't seem to know even the basic geography. Like I said, the "8 mile" thing really doesn't apply to metro-Detroit as a whole. Plenty of million dollar plus properties in my neighborhood, and we are well south of 8 mile. :hi:

[Initech]

114. Nah I'm not afraid to go out of LAX. Was just there last week.

Yeah I'll admit that I dont know the geography of downtown Detroit, my area is generally southwest of the city and the Ann Arbor area. I know that the mile-streets in Detroit though are generally pretty long streets - so there's parts of it that are bad and parts that are good. I've been to 7 mile and that freaked me out. Woodward is pretty cool though, I have some friends that live on Woodward and there's a lot of great hangouts there.

[Romulox]

127. 8 mile extends almost all the way out to Ann Arbor.

I have relatives that live in a very nice township called South Lyon, just east of US23, and just north of "baseline" road, which is another name for 8 mile road. The north/south of 8 mile dichotomy simply doesn't apply there, or to many of the areas in between. Really, it refers to an extremely specific geographic division in the city proper, and it isn't a useful metaphor for understanding the rest of the metropolitan region.

"I've been to 7 mile and that freaked me out."

Ummm...you just said you were at Wayne State University. The school is (roughly) situated at Woodward and I-94. Well south of even 7 mile! :eep:

[Barack_America]

142. I'm getting a "I got off of 94 at West Grand Blvd. vibe"

Which is, of course, going to take you through pretty much 'ground zero' of the riot area.

[Carni]

241. South Lyon?

Yeah, that's a bastion of progressives lol

Isn't home of the MI klan Fenton near South Lyon?

[kwassa]

154. having lived in both areas ...

Detroit is much scarier than anywhere in LA.

Bad analogy.

[Romulox]

157. That only works with people who haven't been to LA

Whole areas of LA are no-go zones in broad daylight; almost nobody walks the streets at night.

[kwassa]

166. Where exactly are you talking about in LA?

I've been to Compton, by Nickerson Gardens, Watts ..... some moderately scary parts of Inglewood, which also has nice areas. All through central LA.

I used to drive through gang territory on the way to work, Los Locos, and the 18th Street Rolling Gangsta Crips, but I never felt scared in the daytime. Drove through that during the LA riots in '92, too. I wouldn't walk there at nighttime, but I would drive through it.

[Romulox]

167. So you wouldn't go there at night, but it's not scary?

"I wouldn't walk there at nighttime, but I would drive through it."

LOL. You wouldn't walk the streets, but otherwise, it's fine! :silly:

I think you are trying to convince yourself now. If you think that Compton is "less scary" than any portion of Detroit, you're engaging in the silliness sort of hyperbole. Like I said, it's convincing to people who have never visited.

[kwassa]

171. I think that you do not know what you are talking about.

Ever been to Compton? I know you haven't.

Detroit is a unique disaster all of it's own. Detroit has lost half of it's population in the past fifty years, LA continues to increase it's population. The median house price in Detroit is $7,100, the cheap run-down small houses in bad neighborhoods in LA start in the $60,000 dollar range. The average selling price in Watts is $145,600. Vast sections of Detroit have abandoned or torn-down houses, something that doesn't exist in Los Angeles.

You have supplied zero proof of your assertion that LA is worse than Detroit. Why don't you try crime statistics? You can fail there, too.

[Romulox]

173. Ditto. nt

[kwassa]

177. I knew you had no argument.

proof you didn't know what you were talking about.

[Romulox]

178. If you restate your thesis, I'll consider refuting it. I'm not arguing with you about how scared

you are in which city. :hi:

[kwassa]

185. My thesis: You know little about Los Angeles.

Start refuting.

[Romulox]

195. And you demonstrably know little or nothing about Detroit.

The difference, you are passionate about distorting the image of Detroit. I am merely pointing out how shitty LA is by way of comparison. :hi:

[kwassa]

209. you can say it, but like all your replies, do nothing to refute it.

You are full of unsupported assertions.

[Romulox]

234. There isn't anything to refute. You are waxing nostalgic about a trip to Detroit 30 years ago.

It's not an argument to be refuted. It's just rambling.

[Barack_America]

183. The home prices in Detroit are relative to prices in the rest of the state.

CA's average home price is higher than MI's. If Detroit is a shithole for its shittiest houses being worth less than shitty houses in LA, does it follow that all of Michigan is a shit hole compared to CA? And, furthermore, that all of the country is a comparative shit hole, based on on real estate values alone?

[kwassa]

184. The median price for Detroit is the median price for Detroit

It has nothing to do with the value for the rest of the state of Michigan, and I made no such comparison. Likewise, I did not even attempt to give you the median price for Los Angeles housing, because Los Angeles has some very well-off to rich neighborhoods in it, and a generally higher housing market due to a much greater demand for housing. Detroit has a low median house price because there is such little demand that many houses are completely abandoned.

To make my Los Angeles comparison, I went to realtor.com and looked for the cheapest houses available anywhere in the city. These start around $60,000, and are in the south central neighborhoods, are small, and in poor condition. Big price difference.

The rest of Michigan is not a "shit-hole", as you and I well know, and the suburbs of Detroit itself are very nice. My parents lived in Birmingham and West Bloomfield. Their nice homes in those areas, however, are worth a lot less than an equivalent house in Los Angeles, probably less than half the value.

[Barack_America]

189. So you contend that housing prices in suburbs and cities are completely unrelated.

I can't agree with you there. If the prices in the Michigan suburbs went up to LA suburb levels, you honestly think Detroit housing prices would stay stagnant?

And, by your measure of Detroit being less "nice" than Compton because the houses are worth less in Detroit, then Birmingham and West Bloomfield are less "nice" than the LA suburbs?

[kwassa]

207. I contend nothing of the sort, and your logic is downright bizarre.

you can set up all the strawmen you like and knock them down, but it doesn't mean a thing.

I never said any such thing.

You missed my rather large point about the substantial differences between the two cities. LA isn't full of abandoned houses. Detroit is. The better comparison would be to another depressed rustbelt city like Cleveland.

[Romulox]

196. I'd rather live in a $60,000 house in Detroit than one in South Central LA any day.

So your point tends to cut both ways. :hi:

[kwassa]

208. Good for you. $60, 000 will buy you a much bigger house in Detroit.

Don't know how safe the neighborhood will be.

[Barack_America]

214. Safer than Compton, that's for sure.

But, given that you have no intimate knowledge of Detroit's neighborhoods, I wouldn't expect you to know that.

[Romulox]

215. In a MUCH SAFER neighborhood, too.

"Don't know how safe the neighborhood will be."

You really don't know much about Detroit. Why pretend? :shrug:

[Barack_America]

113. Near which school?

[Initech]

115. Wayne State

[Barack_America]

123. Wayne State isn't technically downtown.

It's midtown. Which area were you afraid of? Highland Park?

[Romulox]

125. The Wayne State area is also like an oasis in the middle of that area...

Somebody who is afraid in the Wayne State campus areas truly is a person living the media portrayal rather than the reality. That whole area is beautiful and extremely safe (once one exits the freeway, of course!) Some of the best of what the city has to offer is right there.

[Barack_America]

126. It's a lovely part of town.

I lived there for years and never felt frightened.

I'm glad to say that the business boom that began in the Cass Corridor when I was there is only picking up steam.

[Initech]

146. Oh no, Wayne State is a nice area.

I've even survived a couple of nights in Greek Town. I dunno, I guess I'm just rambling.

[Romulox]

172. Maybe I can help: when you get off of I94 at John R. to go to WSU,

there's a shitty block or two with some falling down buildings (many of which have been restored into lofts, if you pay close attention.) That's about it. There is NOTHING scary about the drive down I-94 toward downtown Detroit, except for inclement weather.

[Fire1]

222. Nope. It's the New Center area. n/t

[Rex]

129. I hear that a lot about the South and New Jersy seems to get a lot

of abuse, is it really that bad? I've lived in Texas all my life and the abuse never gets old.

[Orsino]

131. Probably because it spent decades proclaiming itself America's scrotum.

Or biceps. Or because we spent decades so declaring Detroit, or something. Probably a mix of sympathy, petulance and schadenfreude.

[Romulox]

133. With *just a dash* of incoherence! nt

[JVS]

165. Apalachicola, FL has the honor of being America's scrotum.

If you don't believe me, check a map.

[JuniperLea]

132. Because it's disgusting what has happened to it...

I'm guessing.

As goes Detroit, so goes the nation.

Take a look, peeps... we're all going there.

[Thickasabrick]

134. Cool house, wish they could have saved it. NT

[Arkana]

135. You guys have the Lions.

Need I say more? :evilgrin:

[Barack_America]

137. Oh sure, focus on them.

:P

[MidwestRick]

141. Yes we do.

And if they were to ever win, you'd see one hell of a party. detroit for all the publicity of being "Hockeytown", it a football town at heart. In my 40 years of life, the team has won one playoff game ('91 against Dallas) and the town went nuts. If this new management team can turn things around, they have an owner that is not affraid to spend money. Unfortunately, they have just had GMs who didn't know how to spend it in the past.

[Arkana]

143. You won yesterday.

For the record, I've been pulling for you to kill "The Streak". I'm a huge Megatron fan.

[City of Mills]

139. People love blight

I can't explain it...I see the same thing around here...there's some Youtube videos shot around my city, set to a hiphop soundtrack, basically filming every abandoned and blighted property in the town. Meanwhile, every beautiful restored mill building and historic residence is conveniently left out. Some people enjoy wallowing in shit. My city has a 'bad' reputation among a lot of the residents of surrounding towns, probably for this exact reason...they just look at the decay and base their entire opinion of the city based on the bad landlords and propery owners.

[Neecy]

144. There's blight everywhere

I'd like to see Time run a piece on rural blight. Talk about an eyesore!

There's a small community in the Flint Hills down the highway from me called Peru, KS. From the highway it looks like a squatter's paradise with scattered mobile homes that are sitting on grass, rusted and decaying vehicles scattered everywhere, junk just pitched out the door of the shacks and mobile homes. There's one paved road in this little burg and the rest are all gravel. City Hall is a dumpy little building with the sign "PERU CITY HALL" in faded and chipped paint, and adjacent to this sad little building are two others that have falling brick and broken glass. They look on the verge of collapse. This is "downtown". As you leave this junkyard/town there's a large sign that says GOD LOVES YOU.

That is blight. And you'll find thousands of these places throughout rural America - you know, the "heartland" where they'll let a dead vehicle rust in their front yards because towing it is expensive when you live in the middle of nowhere. I've never seen people live like this before I moved to the country and it's a lot uglier than anything I've seen in our cities or suburbs.

(Interestingly enough, Barack Obama's grandmother - the one who passed away just before the election - was born in Peru, KS. Maybe it wasn't always so horrible)

[Barack_America]

150. That would be interesting to see.

A national project that documented what this country was like when we had a vibrant middle class.

What did we manufacture? How did people live?

I think we may have found Ken Burn's next documentary series. ;)

[Canuckistanian]

153. I'm much more fascinated with rural ghost towns

They're usually some small collection of homes in the 1800's that managed to do well for some years.

Then some ambitious character decided to make it a "town" and built a grand post office or railway station or furniture factory to attract permanent settlers.

If the idea was good and the times were right, it became a Chicago or Detroit or St. Louis.

If it didn't, it became a small collection of decaying warehouses and rusted machinery. Literally a "boulevard of broken dreams".

[alfredo]

149. Because Shively Kentucky is not as well known.

[JonLP24]

152. I never been to Detroit myself

My home city is facing some elements of urban decay and for the most part, vote republican so Detroit can't be that bad.

[kwassa]

155. Detroit has been declining for 50 years.

It has half the population it had in the 50s, when the American auto industry peaked, before it's long, slow, slide. The auto industry itself hurt Detroit by opening more out-of-town plants, and abandoning the ones in the city.

The median house price in Detroit is $7,500. Someone recently posted that realtor.com showed 900 houses for sale for under $1,000.

The problems really are worse there. I was born there, too. My dad spent his entire career at GM.

This has more to do with the economic change, and a city dependent on a single industry, than anything else.

[liberalhistorian]

158. Maybe because Detroit

IS a shithole??? :shrug:

[Barack_America]

163. Do you know what's a shit hole? South Dakota.

Look at this blight! Yikes!





More pics here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/strizich/sets/72157603678641738/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12397272@N08/

Somebody should really do something about that.

:eyes:

[Romulox]

182. It is ridiculous that there are even two different Dakotas.

Two Dakotas = more votes for John McCain!

http://www.uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/

[Art_from_Ark]

160. It's not just that house

(which can still be seen on Google Street Scene on Eliot Street between Brush and John R streets). That house is just representative of what has happened to a city that has lost half of its population in the last 40 years. There are whole neighborhoods in Detroit that are in really pitiful shape, with lots of abandoned houses, numerous graffiti-laced abandoned shops, empty high-rise apartment buildings, decrepit factories (take a look at Motor City Industrial Park on Concord Street for an example) etc., that just aren't seen to the same extent in other run-down cities. Lots of burned-out buildings, too.

[Barack_America]

161. Point is, that's an old story in Detroit.

The more recent story is the revitalization of downtown. But nobody wants to cover positive stories about Detroit.

[kwassa]

168. wasn't it revitalized a generation ago with the Renaissance Center

Didn't seem to take.

[Name removed]

175. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kwassa]

186. What is with callling me a troll?

and implying I am anti-Democratic? Simply because I disagree with your ignorance about Los Angeles?

Detroit is a mess. This doesn't make me anti-Detroit, just observing what is. I was born there, my dad spent his entire career at GM.

[Barack_America]

191. You grew up in the most affluent Detroit suburbs.

Please explain to me how that makes you able to proclaim Detroit a "mess"? When is the last time you visited the city?

[kwassa]

194. um ... let's see.

It was a mess years ago when I visited. I used to go down to the DIA all the time. I've been all up and down Woodward, I've been to the RenCen and the area around it, been by the original Motown building on West Grand, and the old GM headquaters building, where my dad worked when I was little. I worked at film studios in Ferndale. I've taken some flights out of the beautiful Coleman Young International Airport. I've been all around Wayne State. For various reasons over time, I've driven around other parts of the city as well, usually related to making industrial films.

Detroit hasn't improved since then, it has gotten quite a bit worse.

[Romulox]

198. Answer...he hasn't visited in years. Way to call him out. nt

[kwassa]

204. and Detroit has turned into a paradise in that time? sure.

Detroits problems are big and public.

Are you saying that Detroit isn't one of the most depressed cities in the country?

[Romulox]

217. Why hold yourself out as an expert, if you possess such scant knowledge?

"Detroits problems are big and public."

So are California's and LA's! Did it ever occur to you that, given the choice, someone might choose Wayne County, Michigan over Los Angeles County, California?

"Are you saying that Detroit isn't one of the most depressed cities in the country?"

I'm saying your view is cartoonish, outdated, and of no utility to me or the people of the City of Detroit. What exactly is the "good fight" you feel you are waging here? :silly: :hi:

[kwassa]

226. You have not proven in any way that my knowledge is scant, have you?

since you don't offer facts, don't back up your claims, offer nothing but unsubtantiated opinion, talking further with you is a waste of time.

[Romulox]

232. No, you have. By posting. nt

[Barack_America]

218. Depends what you call a "paradise".

Detroit is a city that is cheap to live in, where architecturally significant homes on large lots are available at an affordable price. It is a city with a thriving and unpretentious arts and music scene and many notable restaurants. It provides easy access to numerous recreational activities, particularly for those with a love of the water and outdoor activities. Detroit is a family-focused town that provides a comparatively laid-back work environment. For sports enthusiasts, it's hard to beat, unless football is your only sport. Detroit is also noted for its community spirit and ample opportunities to participate and make a meaningful difference in one's community.

That may not sound like "paradise" to you, but it's paradise to me, which is why my husband and I will be settling and raising our future family there.

[kwassa]

227. Are you putting your kids in Detroit public schools?

[Barack_America]

237. We'll see what the schools are like when we have school-aged kids...

...And furthermore which schools are available near our future home. I would give preference to any neighborhood school, be it public or private.

I've also always been interested in the Steiner method of learning and would consider putting my kids into one of their schools, but that would be the case whether we were living in Detroit or Birmingham.

It's honestly too far in the future to say with any certainty. But I will say that I will not put my children in a school that lacks racial and economic diversity. I think that provides an important education in "what it means to be an American" that cannot be compromised.

[Barack_America]

199. What are your opinions of the new Compuware headquarters?

Campus Martius Park?

The plethora of new lofts and condos in the Midtown area?

The renovation of the Book Cadillac?

The Riverwalk?

Comerica Park and Ford Field?

Do you not consider these improvements or are you simply unaware of them?

[kwassa]

206. They are certainly improvements.

Now, do you wish to talk about DPS?

[Barack_America]

210. The TIME article in question did not address the school system.

The issue at hand is the national media's choice to ignore positive changes in Detroit and focus on negatives in order to reinforce stereotypes about the city.

Stereotypes that you have obviously bought into, I might add.

So, considering you, like the media, are dead-set on perpetuating negativity about Detroit, go ahead and have at the school system.

But forgive me, considering you obviously are not personally aware of what is happening in Detroit these days, if I don't give your opinion much weight.

[kwassa]

219. Why don't you try weighing the positive against the negative?

The positive changes are great, but the city is still getting worse. You can rebuild downtown to your heart's content, but it will mean nothing if Detroit doesn't build a brand, spanking-new economic base for it's future. Other rustbelt cities have similar problems, but Detroit has it worse, compounded by the bankruptcies and severe financial distress of the Big 3.

Without a business base, Detroit can't rebuild. Business is the engine that drives everything.

It isn't the fault of the city so much as it is the victim of the globalization of the auto industry, and poor and destructive choices made by the American auto companies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Public_Schools

A February 2009 Brookings Institution report found that Detroit Public Schools was the worst overall major urban district, and the only one whose performance fell between 2000-2007. <22><23>

A June 2007 study by Education Week found that Detroit had the lowest graduation rate of any large school district in the 2003-2004 school year; 24.9%. In a previous report by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, Detroit Public Schools also ranked last among 50 large school districts for the percentage of students who receive a high school diploma on time with a rate of 21.7%.<24> DPS claims that the methods employed are flawed, and that the correct figure is 67.2%. In both cases, DPS officials indicated that the report did not take into account the large numbers of students that it lost to suburban and charter schools. The Director of the research center countered that DPS's numbers lacked credibility, saying that " know it doesn't reflect reality in city schools." A Free Press editorial condemned the controversy, said that DPS is failing most of its students, called on DPS to learn from charter schools, and called on the Michigan State Board of Education to develop better methods of tracking students. A June 11 editorial from Interim Superintendent Lamont Satchel asserted that DPS serves its students well, and that University Prep "has the luxury of selective admissions". Michigan law forbids charter schools from selectively admitting students.

A July 2008 editorial in "Northwestern Digital" stated that graduation rates may be "overestimated by as much as 18 to 20 percent under the Michigan formula" and called on Governor Granholm to implement a compact she signed with the National Governors Association which would change the way that Michigan counts graduation rates to match other states.<25>

[Barack_America]

236. Um, downtown revitalization and a new economic base are not unrelated.

That's one of the main reasons GM moved from the New Center area to the RenCen downtown.

Compuware is an IT company that employs about 6000 people...downtown.

Wayne State is involved with Michigan State and UofM in the University Research Corridor that promotes biotechnology in the region (49,000 employed). Wayne State's medical campus is located in Midtown Detroit and is the 4th largest medical school in the country.

All of these people now working downtown creates jobs in the service industry too. As does the new casinos with their associated hotels. The casinos are locate...you guessed it...downtown.

Detroit began as a downtown that spread. Should we not expect revitalization to take a similar course?

It seems that jobs beget stable neighborhoods beget productive schools. It's going to take time, for sure. But having the media portray honestly the good in addition to the bad would certainly help.

[kwassa]

220. Why don't you try weighing the positive against the negative?

The positive changes are great, but the city is still getting worse. You can rebuild downtown to your heart's content, but it will mean nothing if Detroit doesn't build a brand, spanking-new economic base for it's future. Other rustbelt cities have similar problems, but Detroit has it worse, compounded by the bankruptcies and severe financial distress of the Big 3.

Without a business base, Detroit can't rebuild. Business is the engine that drives everything.

It isn't the fault of the city so much as it is the victim of the globalization of the auto industry, and poor and destructive choices made by the American auto companies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Public_Schools

A February 2009 Brookings Institution report found that Detroit Public Schools was the worst overall major urban district, and the only one whose performance fell between 2000-2007. <22><23>

A June 2007 study by Education Week found that Detroit had the lowest graduation rate of any large school district in the 2003-2004 school year; 24.9%. In a previous report by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, Detroit Public Schools also ranked last among 50 large school districts for the percentage of students who receive a high school diploma on time with a rate of 21.7%.<24> DPS claims that the methods employed are flawed, and that the correct figure is 67.2%. In both cases, DPS officials indicated that the report did not take into account the large numbers of students that it lost to suburban and charter schools. The Director of the research center countered that DPS's numbers lacked credibility, saying that " know it doesn't reflect reality in city schools." A Free Press editorial condemned the controversy, said that DPS is failing most of its students, called on DPS to learn from charter schools, and called on the Michigan State Board of Education to develop better methods of tracking students. A June 11 editorial from Interim Superintendent Lamont Satchel asserted that DPS serves its students well, and that University Prep "has the luxury of selective admissions". Michigan law forbids charter schools from selectively admitting students.

A July 2008 editorial in "Northwestern Digital" stated that graduation rates may be "overestimated by as much as 18 to 20 percent under the Michigan formula" and called on Governor Granholm to implement a compact she signed with the National Governors Association which would change the way that Michigan counts graduation rates to match other states.<25>

[Fire1]

230. Wrong again. n/t

[Fire1]

228. Affluent and WAY over priced as much of the nation's

real estate market. ALL of these fuckin houses in the burbs are UPSIDE DOWN!! FOR SALE SIGNS and FORECLOSURES EVERYWHERE!! You can get a McMansion in Oakland Cty, now for half a mil. EASY and ON THE LAKE, NO LESS!!:rofl: :rofl:

[Romulox]

197. Agressively negative comments about a marganalized city speak for themselves.

If you offered anything constructive, your schtick would be more effective. :hi:

[kwassa]

205. You haven't offered factual refutation of anything I've said anywhere in this thread.

[Romulox]

212. Because it's not a factual argument. It's argument about which city you are more scared in.

Not falsifiable. :shrug:

[kwassa]

225. The factual part of the argument is the city with the bigger crime rate.

and Detroit will beat LA every time on that count.

[Romulox]

231. True, but also misleading.

The fact is that Detroit and LA are not comparable, apples to apples. LA is three or four times the size of Detroit--both in area and population, and is way more comparable to the Greater Metro Detroit area.

All that said, if Compton were considered a separate city, it would have crime rates that meet or exceed Detroit's. If metro Detroit and LA are compared (still not apples to apples, but closer than pitting Hollywood and its glitz against the poverty of Detroit,) the situation is not nearly so clear cut.

I don't have the numbers at hand, but my guess is metro Detroit is quite a bit safer than LA, over all. No question in my mind that the overall quality of life is higher.

[Romulox]

245. Hey, you run your mouth with negative quips, but don't respond to substantive posts at all.

Did I call your number or what (complain to the mods again! :cry: ) :hi:

[Barack_America]

179. You're showing your age.

The real revitalization began under Archer 15 years ago.

The RenCen was built over 30 years ago. The year I was born, in fact.

But well remembered.

[kwassa]

187. and what is your point?

Do you feel that is what is stated in the Time magazine article about Detroit is false?

Do you think the degeneration of Detroit is a new problem? or that the recent bankruptcy of the car companies and lost market share won't make things worse?

What does a median house value of $7,100 mean to you?

[Barack_America]

190. Yes. I feel that TIME is lying through their teeth.

And I posted the backstory of their "journalism" to bolster my point.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6647933

That article, and the NPR interview in post 13, specifically discuss the TIME photojournalist's visit to Detroit and intentional efforts to specifically frame the city as run down.

[kwassa]

211. but you prove my point with the story you laud

"After suffering through the nation’s worst and most concentrated examples of racial violence, industrial collapse, serial arson, crack war, and municipal bankruptcy following years of municipal kleptocracy, Detroit is being descended on by a plague of reporters. If you live on a block near one of the city’s tens of thousands of abandoned buildings, you can’t toss a chunk of Fordite without hitting some schmuck with a camera worth more than your house."

This is exactly what I've been saying. You are saying this is not true?

[Romulox]

213. Dude. He exposed you as "expert" who hasn't been to Detroit in years.

Shame has a purpose in human relations.

[kwassa]

224. So what if I haven't? How has Detroit's economic situation improved?

tell poor little uninformed me how the city has made a turn-around.

[Romulox]

233. You're spouting off without much if any current information. It's silly. nt

[Barack_America]

221. Key word. "After".

That was Detroit's story, but the city is starting a new chapter that the media conveniently chooses to ignore.

I would suggest reading the entire article to get a sense of the media bias towards Detroit.

But, if your choice is to believe, without question, the media's framing of a city you are personally unfamiliar with, then I really don't know what I can add to our discussion.

[kwassa]

223. well, good luck to Detroit.

I would like to see it revive. There are, or were, some wonderful old neighborhoods.

I don't believe anything without questioning, including you.

[timo]

162. ???

folks got tired of bashing Texas?

[Jennicut]

192. If you want to see shit holes, just come to Waterbury, CT aka the Dirty Water

One of the ex mayors had sex with a prostitute's child and niece. My husband works there...going into basements for Yankee gas. Never go down these basements. Ever.

[Morning Dew]

193. Detroit is the only place

I've ever seen a car stripped and up on blocks during rush hour on the freeway.

But that was way back in '91.

[SoCalDem]

200. "Detroit" is just another code-word for

"Look what all those poor black folks on welfare did to a once-great city"

it's just another codeword that politicians can use to describe "urban" decay .

Urbane used to be a word that conjured up a good image, but republicans saw an opportunity to use "urban" as an instant recognition word, for all that is bad..just as they use "heartland", "real america", etc as representative of all that is good, clean, honest, white.

[wuushew]

201. I blame the popularity of the movie Robocop

few other cities have near future dystopian movies made about them(maybe Los Angeles, but less believably so).

[cbdo2007]

216. Same reason people hear I'm from "Kansas City" and ask me if I live on a farm...

like in the Wizard of Oz. It literally happens on the coasts, they think we all live on farms. They probably think Kansas is really black and white just like in the Wizard of Oz too!

I know a lot of people here think there are conspiracies and that it's all based on race and whatever...but for me, being from Kansas City, what I picture when I think of "Detroit" is like the inside of an auto repair shop. Like it smells like oil and everybody looks like they've been fixing cars all day with crud all over their shirts and arms, and exhaust. This all comes from what I've heard all my life about Detroit being the Automotive capital of the country and stuff...so I equate what all I know about cars with the city itself.

Honestly I don't know anything about Detroit other than that - cars. I've traveled quite a bit too, just never there. And I have no desire to visit there due to my impression of what I described above, based on what I learned my whole life in textbooks or heard on tv about Detroit being the automotive capital.

I've never been to say...Atlanta either, but I don't know very much about Atlanta to have an impression of the place. It looked nice during the Olympics and seems like a nice place. I don't know, but it's just all based on what we hear/read and then the pictures that come to mind.

I don't know anything about the racial makeup of Detroit but it just sounds like a dirty, greasy, place that smells like exhaust fumes.

[Barack_America]

239. The air is surprisingly fresh.

I'm living in Philly now and the air quality is so poor here that my long-dormant asthma has flared up severely.

Whenever I go home to Detroit one of the first things I remark on is how nice it is to be able to breathe again.

Not to say the city and all of its cars don't produce pollution, they certainly do, but it seems to have a knack for ending up elsewhere (apologies to Upstate New York).

I'm not trying to sell you on the city, visit it or don't, but I just thought I'd speak to your point of perceptions being so different from reality.

[Taverner]

229. Its so pervasive, even Detroiters do it

[Barack_America]

238. The worst of it, in fact, comes from suburban Detroiters.

Which has been so amply displayed in this very thread.

Nobody has more disdain for Detroit than the suburbanites who would feed off its carcass.

[ShortnFiery]

235. Hey, you're aces in my book. It was so cool to see the Detroit Lions hand our local team, ...

the Washington Redskins, their butts this past Sunday.

It's about time the Redskins were knocked down a peg or two, especially after stiffing their season ticket holders.

Go Detroit Lions! :applause:

[HughMoran]

242. $7000 homes

yikes!

[Carni]

244. You can get em for like 25 grand in neighboring cities

I mean north of 8 mile.

If you want a deal and don't have to worry about utilizing public schools (or working/finding a job) there are some bargains to be had in MI currently.

Parts of the state would be a really good deal for the retired right now (as long as they can handle the cold weather)

[Romulox]

246. Maybe Oak Park. Otherwise, you're full of it.

Hello from neighboring Dearborn, Michigan! :hi:

[Carni]

247. Foreclosures in Dearborn

http://www.foreclosure.com/citySearch.html?tab=c&st=MI&ci=Dearborn

2,135 of em and some are UNDER 25 grand.

I can understand being upset that your property values are in the toilet... but don't shoot the messenger.

[gmoney]

248. There was this encouraging story earlier this year

Detroit Mayor Throws First Brick In Glass-Breaking Ceremony For New Slum
MAY 12, 2009 | ISSUE 45•20



Mayor David Bing christens the brand-new housing development by shattering the window of a dilapidated tenement building.

DETROIT—As community leaders and members of the press looked on, Detroit mayor David Bing proudly hurled the first brick this week in a window-shattering ceremony for the city's newest dilapidated slum.

The result of three years of construction work and more than $24,000 in public funds, the rat-infested and crime-ridden development was unveiled to the public on Tuesday.

"It is my great honor to introduce to you the brand new Baneberry Heights," announced Bing, gesturing to the ramshackle subdivision behind him. "Filthy, dangerous, filled with violence and blight: It's all here, and it's all completely falling apart."

Martha Wallace, 35, takes a pleasant stroll down one of the neighborhood's dimly lit, trash-strewn streets.

"This is what the people of Detroit have been waiting for," Bing continued before walking to a nearby trash can, setting its contents on fire, and heaving the flaming receptacle through a corner storefront. "Baneberry Heights is a nightmare come true."


http://www.theonion.com/content/news/detroit_mayor_throws_first_brick

Seriously, I spend a fair amount of time in and around Detroit, and it's a shame that so much of the city has decayed so badly. But yes, they're making efforts, and I hope things continue to improve.

Of course, I see the grim humor of these Onion stories, too... http://www.theonion.com/content/news/detroit_sold_for_scrap