Tests on skull fragment cast doubt on Adolf Hitler suicide story

[Democracyinkind]

... So.. Anyone want to talk crazy stuff? Antarctica, South America? LOL. Let's see if this piece gets the same strange replies like it gets on conspiracy boards. There you can read such gems as "Hitler is still alive. His alias is Pedro Ramirez"... (he would be 120 or so today....)

I have a hunch about how they ended up with the result; and I'll say as much as this: I don't think Hitler escaped the bunker, and I'm convinced that he died. Having studied the Russian side of the story as well as the testimonies of the people still in the bunker that is my conclusion; what to make of this test - I am not sure right now, but I have a an idea that I'll post later.

the story:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/27/adolf-hitler-suicide-skull-fragment

[grantcart]

1. deleted

[Echo In Light]

2. DU seems really hostile today - this ought to provide the anti-CT crusaders some go-go juice

[Democracyinkind]

3. Are you refering to the first comment (about hostility)? I missed it. All I got was "delete"....

Don't see how anyone can be upset about a DNA test.

[Echo In Light]

11. There are those here who go bugfuck over ANY skepticism of Official Doctrine

... or officially accepted version of major, historical or otherwise, events. I guess some of them are so livid over the idea b/c it's fueled by contempt for those who do question such things. It's like imagining having one's ducks in a row, and the questioners turn some of those ducks slantwise, which apparently infuriates certain personality types.

[Democracyinkind]

12. The dungeon thaught me that much ... LOL .. was his comment that bad?

[Echo In Light]

13. I don't recall what was posted there n/t

[Democracyinkind]

15. maybe that's for the better. thanks for the linnks. n/t

[Liberation Angel]

4. I do not believe that Hitler died in that bunker

I think the forensic analysis of the dna of the teeth need to be examined for there to be any doubts removed.

I am not surprised by this at all.

I have done pretty extensive research on this subject and believe that Hitler made it to Patagonia via submarine where he stayed for the rest of his life.

There is fairly solid evidence of this though nothing absolutely conclusive as there might be if there were forensic dna analysis of the jaw which is the real lynchpin to the answering the question of whether the charred remains were in fact that of Hitler, a double, or perhaps a relative with similar dna(?).

But absent definitive forensics on the Russian possessed fragments no real conclusions can be reached.

There is some really good data out there on Hitler in Argentina and Chile (or thereabouts) as the nazis had an extensive operation down there and many safe houses which were supported by wall street backers of Hitler (and those in government like the Dulles brothers who financed Hitler along with the Bushes and Rockefellers).

Patagonia has ten thousand or more islands where compounds were built and there are innumerable reports of Nazis running such copmpounds throughout Latin America.

Hitler was a child and creation of the anglo-nordic-american WASP elites who would have had the means and desire to protect him when his war failed due to the resolve of FDR and the American people and the allied antifascist peoples.

I have studied many documents (some classified and found only recently in archives) which show that Hitler's escape to Latin America was not only very possible, but likely. Evidence of those facts is solid but not yet irrefutable.

So this story does not surprise me one bit.

Rather exciting actually that the suicide myths may finally be debunked and the complicity of the Buses et al in Hitler's rise and escape and retirement may finally be exposed further.

[Ozymanithrax]

5. An aunt of mine claimed to have seen Hitler in Braman, Oklahoma...

around 1964. She claimed he was wearing bib overalls while eating an apple.

But growing up in the late 50's and early 60's, Hitler appearances were not unusual. Only after Elvis' death did people cease seeing the "most evil man who ever lived" and start seeing "the King of Rock and Roll."

This is a great seed for a suspense novel or Science Fiction Novel.

[Democracyinkind]

7. Irving Wallace..... n/t

[SidDithers]

10. Charlaine Harris' Sookie Stackhouse series...

has Elvis as a dimwitted vampire named Bubba, who was badly "brought over" by a vampire morgue attendant in Memphis. The fact that he occasionally wanders the countryside gives rise to all the Elvis sightings.

Sid

[Democracyinkind]

6. I'd agree if you said that about Bormann, and maybe even Hans Kammler... but Hitler.

Leave out the forensics for a minute - I agree with a downgraded version of what your wrote (Patagonia is spot on)... but

If the story of Hitler's suicide was faked, then you accept these premises:

- The whole Russian side of the story of Hitlers death is a hoax. The dental checks w/ his dentist were hoaxed. (Allready 20+ people in on the coverup)

- The testimony of at least two bunker-survivor is deliberatly fabricated. (Traudl Junge and the other escapes me right now - that would make 2 credible source part of the conspiracy as well as the other 20 or so people who were there in the last days.)

- The Americans fell for the hoax.

- Bormann was not aware of Hitlers survival.

All of these seem unlikely to me. But if there is a documented narrative in which HItler survives and the above premises are not necessary, I might change my mind.

[Liberation Angel]

26. Why not Hitler? Stalin and Truman made deals...

Hitler dead made both Russians and Americans happy and the fact that the Russians got him made Stalin look good. They did not want Hitler to be alive (even if he was).

Stalin had extensive deals with western financial/industrial powers who wanted to protect Hitler

The dental records really are not sufficient. Hitler had numerous doubles and that would be easy to fake so only a real tough dna analysis could get us nearer to the truth.

Who in their right minds would challenge a fake story if Hitler WERE still alive (especially Hitler supporters). But my belief is that the suicide cover story was well planned so that there would be "witnesses" who had no idea what really happened.

Certin powerful Americans were BEHIND the escape/hoax (Bushes, Dulleses, Rockefellers, the whole Odessa and "operation paperclip" apparatus). The rest of us had no way of knowing the truth.

Why tell Bormann? Anyway, how do you know he didn't know. Because he kept quiet.

See my link on Hitler in Argentina below.

I have interviewed US intelligence operatives and other investigators who believe Hitler was protected in Latin America by Peron and others after arriving there by U-Boat.

I have read classified documents on the subject. Some are now public.

Absent definitive proof i think there is a strong case to be made that it was possible and even probable.

[thunder rising]

14. Right, and once safely away that insane (crazy, delusional) MF just STFU and stayed under the radar.

No even close to possible.

[Democracyinkind]

17. Another good point. (That's what I meant with number 4 on the list)

[Liberation Angel]

23. Well, he worked for the Bushes and an "undisclosed location" was good enough for Cheney

He was a delusional but useful idiot for the American Reich Wing

but he would have stayed wherever they wanted him to stay while they continued his operations with new branding.

Maybe they kept him on morphine

or opium.

Or maybe he just "retired".

They did not need him as a pitchman anymore...

They had Prescott Bush, David Rockefeller and the Dulles brothers.

[Democracyinkind]

31. That's the point. If they didn't need him, why did he "survive" WW2

- Why Bormann couldn't have known? Because Bormann's movements in South America are well known because he was trailed by people who didn't want to let it go. You know, holocaust survivors, anti-facists - people who would have raised hell if they ever would have seen credible evidence of Hitler hanging out with ol' Martin. (If the person claimed to be Bormann really is him; the last word isn't really spoken on that and won't be until some serious grave-digging is done.)

- Also, what you write eerily reminds me of what Eric Orion writes, maybe that's why I hesitate.

- But most importantly: you are telling me that Traudl Junge fabricated the events in the Bunker? That's a conclusion drawn from your claim. It's just that I believe her.

- And last but not least: "Hitlers doubles" is an undocumented claim. There is considerable speculation about one such double, Gustav Weler, and that is the first and only name/person that has been picked up by respected historians without finding anything conclusive yet. As for the 6 bodyguards, the only places I see those claims are within the Neuschwabenland-crowd or German Neo Nazi websites - there is nada documention that Hitler or Goebbels ever hired one, not to speak of 6. Who would have hired them that we don't know about?

- .... and everlast: How did this grand conspiracy communicate with Hitler thru all those years without anyone knowing? There is like not one day unacounted for in the official life of Hitler and there simply is no documentation of such contact to "handlers"... Somehow they must have communicated...

While I a agree that Hitler was mainly an Anglo American puppet (structurally spoken) the claim that he received/followed specific orders from some kind of cabal is just ridiculous. Of course he was financed and armed by the Americans and Brits in the beginning, of course his whole policy was not possible without significant collaboration from elements within the US/GB but that is far away from the kind of conspiracy you are alluding to.

[hunter]

32. We certainly cleaned out Germany's closets after the surrender.

Some of the shiny prizes we displayed in public: the aerospace science and scientists, the industrial chemistry and chemists, etc. The most horrific stuff was quietly handed over to the demons in our own closet -- the chemical warfare research, the mind drugs, and records of the most hideous human torture and experimentation.

The Soviets did the same.

We don't talk about it so much in the U.S., but we also got access to the worst of Japan's horrific wartime research.

In so many ways it doesn't matter if Hitler himself escaped or not. The spirit that drove Hitler and the evil fruits of Nazi science survived in the dark dungeons of the West and Soviet Union.

[Democracyinkind]

34. I really like your last line. Indeed, it doesn't matter that much.

[GreenStormCloud]

8. Sounds like the team wanted to keep Stalin happy.

From the article:

But Stalin remained suspicious. In 1946 a second secret mission was dispatched to Berlin. In the same crater from which Hitler's body had been recovered, the new team found what it believed was the missing skull fragment with a bullet exit wound through it.

Telling Stalin that you couldn't find anything more might not have been healthy. Better to show him some skull fragment. Stalin wouldn't know the difference, and the team gets to live longer.

I am confident that Hitler died, as history says, in the bunker.

[Democracyinkind]

9. You have the same angle on this as I have. Thanks for the reply.

my answer to the mystery would start exactly with what you discussed in your post. But I wanna see some more posts before I out my grand theory just to have my ass busted by some kind of online Will Hunting.

[old mark]

20. Anyone in their right mind wanted to keep Stalin happy - he was no

fucking day at the beach, either.
Nothing like a psychotic with a huge army...



mark

[hunter]

16. After the war Donald Rumsfeld was among the last of Hitler's handlers.

Hitler had been taken alive by a super secret military unit before the Soviets moved in on Berlin. It made Stalin insane that he couldn't be sure Hitler was dead and he doubted the testimony of his own forensic scientists who were all too terrified to speak the truth.

Most incredibly, Hitler and Wernherer von Braun became close friends. Hitler lived to see the first moon landing, which he made a painting of with the American flag replaced by a Nazi Swastika.

There's this crazy street person I met who swears this is true! He used to be a caretaker on the New Mexico ranch where Hitler was kept! Really!

[Democracyinkind]

18. Did he mention that the Führer goes by Pedro Ramirez these days?

Imagine Pedro the 100 year old farmhand. LOL.

[Liberation Angel]

27. Thanks for the cool links (not)

had me going there for a second although Rumsfeld could easily pass for Hitler's son if he had that manic mustach!

[old mark]

19. I loved the old Monty Python sketch about "That nice Mr. Hilter"

who lived in an old apartment building in England and came out on his balcony every so often to give a little talk to 3 or 4 grannies who cheered him on.

"That nice Mr. Hilter" evidently got away clean after all. Probably lived in Milwaukee till he died of old age. Or Miami.

mar

[RFKHumphreyObama]

21. I remember reading that Hitler escaped to South America and worked as a waiter

Before dying at the age of 100 in 1989.

Imagine getting your dinner served by Hitler

And a medium who was being quoted on a comedy show I was watching in the mid-1990s apparently said that she's made contact with Hitler in the next life and he's running an anti-Nazi organization (they have problems with Nazis in the next life as well or is it a rehabilitation thing?)

[Sebastian Doyle]

28. If racist ass Strom Thurmond could make it to 101

then racist ass Hitler could easily make it to 100. Though I'm not sure about the waiter thing. He would have probably blown his cover the first time somebody asked him for a Kosher meal.

[Liberation Angel]

22. Hitler in Argentina (link)

This has some great info:

http://www.barilochenazi.com.ar/english/introduction.htm

The FBI memo is pretty interesting

[librechik]

24. I saw a documentary on this last week

the skull identified as Hitler's is actually a female skull. Other fragments cannot be tied to Hitler by DNA results (confirmation is due later this year--Hitler descendants not cooperating with investigators re DNA collection--as I recall)

not saying H didn't die in the bunker--just the evidence they have is misidentified.

[Democracyinkind]

29. The article is about the evidence presented in the documentary.

[Cid_B]

25. More proof!!11!!

[BreweryYardRat]

30. Hitler's definitely dead.

Whether he shot himself or not...I doubt a weaselly little shit like him would have had the guts. He probably took cyanide.

[Ezlivin]

33. Hitler was a WOMAN

There's your answer. S/he died in the bunker.

When Hitler had cramps s/he unleashed the Luftwaffe. Damn.

[happyslug]

35. If the July 20th plot had NOT occurred, Hitler would have escaped Berlin

But the side affects of the plot and/or his growing Parkinson disease (the involuntary movement of his hands in some of the last video we have of Hitler indicates one or the other) made him face the fact that his life was over. If he was still healthy in April 1945 he could have flown out of Berlin to Bavaria and held out for a time period leading a guerrilla operation and then going to Spain and then to South America. From South America he would have been returned to his speech making and as such we would have heard of him (and generally we would have heard from him).

Remember Hitler was NOT into deep research into any one subject, this is where he differed from Stalin who was into as much data as he could get (And the reason Stalin made the Mistake in 1941 of thinking Hitler would wait till 1942 to attack Russia, for if you looked into the details of any such invasion the Germans would have had more tanks, more men, more fuel, more planes in 1942 then they had in 1941, it made more sense for Hitler to wait then to attack in 1941, but Hitler was NOT a detail man like Stalin and wanted to attack Russia as soon as possible and that was in 1941 NOT 1942).

Given Hitler's view of himself as the most important German ever, his sacrifice of himself in fighting the Russians made sense to him (That he committed Suicide or otherwise died in his bunker was unimportant to this world view of Hitler, he was one with Berlin in the fight against the Russians). Given his rapidly deteriorating health from 1944 onward going some place else to die out of power was unthinkable (Thus if he had left for South America why give the Presidency of the Third Reich to Karl Dönitz? You retain it for your own use). Hitler wanted to die in power and that meant dieing in Berlin, thus he never had any thought of dieing anywhere but Berlin after July 1944. This was true even if it meant the destruction of all of Germany. Thus Hitler died in Berlin, not because anyone said he did, but he would never have left Berlin for that meant he gave up any hope of being in charge of all of Germany and that was the one thing Hitler was NEVER going to give up, even if it meant the destruction of Germany.