question: I posted some Jesus quotes on my FB page

[Mari333]

all of them alluding to helping the poor, etc.

took them straight out of the bible.

my right wing christian born again brother's response:
"We as christians dont need to follow jesus ' teachings TO THE LETTER. we are forgiven because we are already saved."

I told him I disagreed. if one calls one's self a christian, then you either follow the teachings to the letter or stop telling other people to follow them.

what would you have said and why did he say that? seems like a cop out.

PS Im not a christian.

[villager]

1. so they believe they are "saved" by proclaiming he's God's son (given son,

died for our sins, etc.) and yet the words spoken by this being --sent here by God! -- are meaningless, and to be ignored

They're like those computers on "Star Trek" episodes who can no longer tell what they're programmed to believe.

Or -- they're just more clearly, more obviously insane, with each passing day...

[roguevalley]

50. they believe faith is enough. Jesus believed, BECAUSE HE IS A

JEW (and they never acknowledge that) that a life without works is not enough. Faith is fine but it is not enough. You must do to be good.

[BattyDem]

2. There's a big difference between ...

not following his teachings to the letter and ignoring them completely.

[Mari333]

3. I will post that instead

[anonymous171]

4. That is the problem with that form of Christianity.

It basically gives them free reign (which I guess is why it is so popular.)

[Mari333]

12. is that a born again form??

I cant figure it out. seems kind of lazy.

[tavalon]

38. It very much is

I grew up in that group but I suffered from an affliction of question asking, something no good sheep would do. I didn't make it past 19 years old in that sect. I'm a polytheist these days and like to say that I allow Jesus in my pantheon, but Yahweh is out, because he doesn't play well with others. Funny, a non-christian puts more stock in the teachings of Jesus, than the born aginners.

[OneGrassRoot]

39. What a true statement, in my experience...

"a non-christian puts more stock in the teachings of Jesus, than the born aginners."

I'm not sure how to differentiate "authentic" Christians versus the crazy hypocrites who would crucify Jesus all over again if he were here, but just as I value positive messages espoused by various leaders and writers, found in various books -- sacred or not -- I would say I value Christ's teachings (not the Old Testament, mind you) more than most fundamentalist Christians I know, and I'm not even religious.

[armyowalgreens]

5. Please don't encourage them to follow the bible to the letter. Please ,please don't.

The bible is filled with many horrible things. I really don't want them getting any more fucking ideas.

Let them be hypocrites.

[Fridays Child]

6. I would have said that, if he thinks Christianity is a "get out of hell free" card...

...he's not worth my time.

[Mari333]

15. thanks I just posted that to him too

:)

[unpossibles]

7. but it's ok to hate some gay people based on some cherry picked old testament verses

I see. Must be convenient to be completely unaware of one's own hypocrisy.

[Mari333]

9. I also told him that!

you cannot pick and choose which 'sins' other people are supposedly committing and then proceed to tell me that you refuse to follow the teachings yourself.

[Zoeisright]

8. Tell him he's going to hell because he's blowing off Jesus.

That should get his panties in a bunch.

:sarcasm:

I cannot stand those hypocritical buffoons who call themselves 'Christian' and ignore Jesus Christ's words.

[Mari333]

11. well, he picked the wrong person to argue with

I was a bible school teacher when I was dumb and young. I know it backwards. He probably learned everything he knows from his preacher in a megachurch in Ohio.

[Kaleva]

10. Following Jesus's example would be what every saved person would want to do.

[RandomThoughts]

13. I not sure about the people that responded to your post,

but some people think of being saved as a blank check of grace to sin. I don't think of it that way, I could be wrong, but to me that seems to not be right.

I think of grace as a way to get over the problems that sin caused so that you can once again be clean and partake of the spirit of God. The forgiveness is to help us be close to God so we can learn to sin less and work on our problems, not so that we can just do whatever we want without repercussion.

There is a cult that believes sin is just shame, and if you feel no guilt then you do not sin, and in that they can burn up their conscious and do what ever they want, that seems to be the opposite of what loving thy Lord God, and loving thy neighbor is.

Much of reading the bible is interpretation, and the spirit a person has can determine how they interpret it. That is one reason some people of faith are worse then people not of faith, if they, in my opinion, do not have discernment, they can interpret things in bad ways then claim doing bad things is somehow part of what they are suppose to do. And they believe they have some supernatural cover because of their interpretations.

It is up to God in the end, so he will decide, but many Christians believe they should try to be better and not just ignore what the teachings of Jesus Christ say because they have grace, but think that the grace is a way to get them back on track to live in the teachings of love and kindness.

[xchrom]

14. yeah -- that's the fav reply of of christians who DON'T belive in jesus. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. This is fundamentalist teaching going to the Family

The old teachings are exactly what you told your brother.

By the way, they are almost unreachable in that sense.

[Mari333]

17. I agree

he also told me that
'jesus came to change the law of the jews and he died to save us so I dont have to follow the teachings to the law'

I said

'the law of the jews was the OLD TESTAMENT not the NEW TESTAMENT, and he didnt die to save you from the laws of the NT...'

I am beginning to see hes not very bright.

[TexasProgresive]

26. Whether he knows it or not he's a follower of dispensationalism.

Dispensationalism is a Protestant evangelical tradition and theology<1> based on a biblical hermeneutic that sees a series of chronologically successive "dispensations" or periods in history in which God relates to human beings in different ways under different Biblical covenants. As a system dispensationalism is rooted in the writings of John Nelson Darby and the Brethren Movement.<2> The theology of dispensationalism consists of a distinctive eschatological "end times" perspective, as all dispensationalists hold to premillennialism and most hold to a pretribulation rapture. Dispensationalists believe that the nation of Israel is distinct from the Church<3>, and that God will fulfill His promises to national Israel. These promises include the land promises, which in the future result in a millennial kingdom where Christ, upon His return, will rule the world from Jerusalem<4> for a thousand years. In other areas of theology, dispensationalists hold to a wide range of beliefs within the evangelical and fundamentalist spectrum.<5>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. It has zero to do with intelligence, this is dispensantionism

at its core. It is an american version of Christianity going back about 150 years, and it is a movement that started to serve the wealthy.

Hell I am nominally a Jew and I smell crap in it. Now get worried, this idea is expanding to other religions, and RIGHT WING religious leaders, no matter who... or what, are sdopting this.

[jgraz]

18. These people are incredibly stupid and they are incredibly crazy

If you keep those two points in mind, their actions make much more sense.

[Mari333]

19. its too bad, he was an incredibly sweet little boy once

I remember changing his diapers. too bad a preacher got a hold of him. maybe he will grow up.

[jgraz]

20. It is possible to be driven insane by propaganda

Most people don't like to admit that our minds are that fragile, but you only need to look at the teabaggers to know it's true.

[Ignis]

47. +1, unfortunately.

I've been trying to reason with my own little cabal of FB fundies, and it really is a lost cause.

Present a real-life fact? They'll use a Bible quote to counter it.
Present a Bible quote? They'll counter with tribal knowledge or neo-Calvinism.
Present a critique of non-"Christian" actions by "Christians?" They'll decry your "prejudice."

You just can't win with closed minded, parochial idiots. :shrug:

[HawkerHurricane]

21. The parable of the sheep and the goats.

Mathew 25, 31-46 inclusive. Seems if you don't help your fellow man, you go to Hell. At least, that's what Jesus says. Doesn't seem to be any loophole about "being saved".

[gratuitous]

51. That's it; not a word in there about believing anything

Those who are blessed and enter into the joy of their master do so because when they saw hungry people, they fed them; when they saw naked people, they clothed them; when they saw sick and imprisoned people, they visited them. The cursed cry out "Lord, Lord," but the master has no use for them, because they didn't give aid and comfort to the least of their brothers and sisters.

I don't mind what verses one person may choose to emphasize over others; I do it myself, because there's so much there. But at the very least, passages such as Matthew 25:31-46 have to be acknowledged as being part and parcel of the Christian Testament.

[geckosfeet]

22. Hypocritical cop out no less. So for your bro, being a christian is simply a

matter of proclamation. I declare that I am a christian therefore I am saved (whatever saved means).

This is simply slovenliness and classic religious arrogance. We can't all be Mother Theresa but you are right - major cop out.

Is ones christianity simply a matter of declaration? Or does being a christian actually carry some responsibility to those less fortunate.

Your bro should examine exactly what defines being christian is in his world, and compare it to the teachings of Christ and his church.

[Mari333]

23. I might just send him a link to this page... : )

[Posteritatis]

24. Bonus points if he's an inerrantist. (nt)

[DCKit]

25. I feel for you Mari333, but don't believe religion is solely to blame.

I have several family members who have the ability to imagine the world exists as they want it to be, irrespective of their religious beliefs. Only two have gone fundamentalist, but all of them have an argument for every fact they don't like. A couple have even been able to completely forget that they ever voted Republican (which may be a good thing, 'cause we used to fight like crazy).

IMO, it's more of an authoritarian thing, possibly a mental disorder. Presenting facts, information and debate in an attempt to gently re-educate the whole bunch has continued to fail after more than a decade of effort. Their minds are set in stone.

The best response to date: I'd spent three days writing an email - two hours writing and nearly three days editing out anything that might be construed as opinion - and the answer I got? "I'll forgive you because you were obviously drunk when you wrote that." No argument, no debate, just "you were obviously drunk."

It wasn't the first time, but the best example ever of how desperate they are to avoid dealing with actual facts. It's all "Look over there!" and don't deal with anything you can't easily refute.

At this point I just say "You're wrong" (or, "Jesus says you're wrong" to the fundies) and move along. I've wasted far too much of my life trying to change intractable minds.

[Jester Messiah]

27. Never argue religion with a fundie.

They'll take you straight to crazy-town and then beat you with home-field advantage.

[Are_grits_groceries]

28. They aren't Christians.

I call them "Leviticans" because they seem to believe more in the laws written there.

Jesus wasn't fond of hypocrites:

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cross sea and land to make a single convert, and you make the new convert twice as much a child of hell as yourselves." ( Matthew 23:15)

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe (donate) mint, dill, and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. It is these you ought to have practiced without neglecting the others." ( Matthew 23:23)

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which on the outside look beautiful, but inside they are full of the bones of the dead and of all kinds of filth. So you also on the outside look righteous to others, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." ( Matthew 23:27-28)

"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you lock people out of the kingdom of heaven. For you do not go in yourselves, and when others are going in, you stop them." ( Matthew 23:13-14)

As you see, he condemned them for they way they were acting in the present. He may forgive them later if they are sincere, but he doesn't countenance them acting just like they want to until then. I tell people this and quote if I have to. Jesus would be all over them like a duck on a junebug. He didn't stand for that kind of shit.

[Lerkfish]

29. RW christians of today are like the old Pharisees

They pretend and like to be known as religious, but will not lift a finger to help another person and use their own personal agenda and call it God's.

that having been said, current RW christians are more accurately named Paulists, because they have stopped listening to the actual words of Jesus and have codified Paul's letters as more sacred.
The problem is, Paul was writing specific letters to specific churches and his comments only make sense when viewed in historical context (like its a sin for a woman to cut her hair, etc.)

Since the RW is too stupid or incurious to analysis Paul's teachings in their historical context, the RW leaders are able to cherry pick the anachronistic paulisms to justify the basest worst bigotrys of their flock to retain power over them (not unlike Glenn Beck and the teabaggers). If you ask a teabagger what they are really protesting against, they're likely to not even know themselves.

If you read the bible, all of Christ's teachings are NOT tied to its historical context and have applications to the current or any time or epoch. Not so with Paul's teachings. Although Paul said some very good things, he was, after all, simply a teacher, not even a prophet, so a lot his personal opinion is scattered throughout his letters.

[OnionPatch]

43. In fact I think we should start referring to them in that way.

"The New Pharisees" because that's exactly what they are and if Jesus came back right now he'd be the first to point it out.

[EmilyAnne]

30. What it means is "I have my mind made up about something. Hold on a second and I'll find some

bible verses to prove that I'm right."

In other words, many right wing christians are now using the bible to back up their pre-formed ideology.
And if the bible itself contradicts that pre-formed ideology, they ignore it, intentionally misinterpret it or scramble to find some other verse to back them up.

My father is a fundamentalist preacher and I grew up surrounded by this approach to the bible.
That said, I would have never in my wildest dreams imagined the American christian movement embracing the Ayn Rand style of religion that we see today.

[wicket]

31. What quotes did you post?

n/t

[CBGLuthier]

32. That's why there are so many denominations

I don't think anyone here can really say this man is wrong. Or right for that matter. But his interpretation is not unique.

[rucky]

33. Usually they're not so upfront about their self-exceptionalism.

I'd give him kudos for being upfront about his double-standard.

[Odin2005]

34. That pretty much sums up Chisto-Fascist ideology.

:puke:

[madokie]

35. Why bother then?

I'm not christian and I don't nor will I be quoting anything out of the christians book anytime anywhere. It's kinda' like me trying to show some compassion for gays and then get the shit kicked out of me everytime. Hopefully soon I'll learn better to even try.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

36. My religious friends who advocate for universal health care on Facebook

get the line: "Jesus never said the government was supposed to take care of people."

Well DUH, the government in those days was the Roman Empire, and the Jews were a conquered people in an obscure corner of the Empire. The government would no more take care of them than it would initiate a moon launch project.

[tavalon]

37. Ah, the "Jesus is my accomplice" argument

I've heard it before, sadly. Faux Christians have quite the racket going.

[guitar man]

40. whew!!

That's a relief, I thought I was going to hell for touching my pee pee too much...

:rofl:

[OnionPatch]

41. The right has succeeded in turning around the point of it all.

These days, Christianity is all about "Your personal relationship with Jesus" or whether or not you are "saved". According to them, it has nothing to do with helping others, forgiveness, kindness and charity.

The way I was raised, you have to be truly sorry for your past sins and ready to start following the Word again to be forgiven, but I'm not surprised the right found a loophole so they can exploit Christianity without being real Christians.

[66 dmhlt]

42. A perfectly good standby is the "West Wing" based letter

You may remember the episode where Pres. Jed Bartlett turns the tables on a haughty, pious Laura Schlessinger stand-in using the Bible as his only weapon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhGk6eF65Fo

Based on that premise, here's a rather humorous letter good for dealing with christianists in multiple situations:

You know, that old Leviticus 18:22 trope that bigoted christianists hate-mongers always love to trot out to justify their bashing of gays and lesbians? Well, if you’re going to use the Bible to justify your vile bigotries, let’s do a little Bible study time:

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should this be a neighborhood activity?

Leviticus 25:44-46 clearly states that we may indeed possess slaves, both male and female. However, they have to be purchased from neighboring nations. A good Christian friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. I would much prefer owning a Canuck. So why can't I own Canadians? Can you clarify, please?

One of my friends would like to sell his daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21: 7. She’s a Yale graduate, speaks fluent French and is very computer literate. What do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know from Leviticus 11: 7-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes a man unclean. So exactly what kind of brutal Biblical punishment do you think the NCAA and NFL should be meting out to all those big, burly football players? And does wearing gloves, like lots of receivers and backs do, a possible loophole?

Leviticus 21:18-21 has numerous restrictions about who exactly can approach the altar to worship God, but I’m focusing on the one concerning if I have a defect in my eye. I have to admit that I wear glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

Most of the guys I know shave on a daily basis, get their hair trimmed regularly and some even have tattoos – although these are all expressly forbidden (Lev. 19:27-28). How should they die?

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, the Bible tells me it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev.1: 9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them in the least. Should I smite them?

My uncle has a farm. Year in and year out, he violates Leviticus 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field; as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (she really likes that all-season linen and wool blend). Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them (Lev. 24:14)? Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family gathering like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality (s.v., the earlier bigoted Leviticus citing). Me? I’m not so sure of that. Is being gay or a crustacean cruncher-muncher worse?

I know that I am forbidden to have any contact whatsoever with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness – even to sitting on a chair where she had previously sat (Lev.15:19-24). The problem at the office is, how is one supposed to know these things? It seems like merely asking causes them to take great offense.

You most assuredly need to spend more time with the Bible's Beatitudes.

And you most assuredly are NOT A CHRISTIAN.

[Gregorian]

44. Check this out.

On my favorite internet forum-

http://b3ta.com/board/9716509

As a Christian I find this utterly amazing. And I mean that maybe I now understand the fundy perspective. I think intelligent Christians and even atheists can see eye to eye. It's called tolerance. None of us actually "know".

At any rate, I think the fact that I can laugh at, and even learn from, that cartoon means that I'm at least somewhat tolerant. Fundies think that WE are in control. I don't believe that. I think there is a higher intelligence, whatever it is. And our actions are minute in comparison. We can cause pain, or we can help each other. Argh, I can't explain shit today. All I know is I laughed.

[Blue_In_AK]

46. The right-wing fundies seem to put more stock

in the Old Testament and the letters of Paul than they do the words of Jesus contained in the Gospels. I'm not sure why that is.

[baldguy]

48. Matthew 23:12-34

23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

23:16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

23:18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.

23:19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

23:20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.

23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

23:22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchers of the righteous,

23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

[City of Mills]

49. This is why I need to be reborn

Damn you can do whatever you want, you're already saved!

How do they do that, anyway? Do they squeeze you out of a blanket or something?

[undeterred]

52. Its called cheap grace.

You take forgiveness of sins for granted instead of trying to follow what God wants. I'm not one for literal interpretations but in the case of serving the poor, its the dominant theme in much of the gospels. If someone doesn't believe in that, they're just rewriting Christianity.