Raped. Raped-raped. Kinda raped. Half raped.

[EmilyAnne]

Raped, but what was she doing there?

Raped, but she should have known better.

Raped, but where was her mother?

Raped, but she shouldn't have been so drunk.

Raped, but she wasn't some innocent little virgin.

Raped, but she's forgiven him.

Raped, but why was she alone?

Raped, but you could tell she'd done it before.

Raped, but what did she expect?

Raped, but that's the way people do it in Europe.

Raped, but you don't know how fast kids grow up in Hollywood.

Raped, but she's not even ashamed to talk about it.

Raped, but this was no average 13 year old.

Raped, but why must we be such puritans?

Raped, but the timing of this arrest is the most disturbing thing about it.

Raped, but where was her mother?

Raped, but she uses drugs.

Raped, but just look at how slutty she looks in those pictures.

Raped, but she's rich now.

Raped, but that mother of hers wanted to get her into movies.

Raped, but why are we so eager to punish?

Raped, but she should've known better.



I think I've covered all the degrees of rape that have been identified by so many progressives.

According to Whoopi Goldberg, Melissa Gilbert, countless posters on Democratic Underground and Huffington Post editorials, there are so many ways to rape someone without actually rape-raping them.

Thankfully, we have laws to override such ignorance.

[moriah]

1. You forgot "Raped, but her rapist's wife was murdered."

And don't forget "Technically he raped her." Gag me -- she said no. No means no.

Thank you very much for posting this.

[Barack_America]

34. "Raped, but her rapist makes really good films".

[moriah]

76. "Raped, but her rapist's mother died in the Holocaust."

(Yeah, seriously, someone said that losing his mother helped pay a karmic debt. WTF???)

[Berry Cool]

116. There are a lot of idiots who believe in karma.

Like life is some kind of ledger book. Sheesh.

[moriah]

121. The part that got me was the idea of being able to "pre-pay" your karmic debt.

I believe in something kind of similar to karma -- that what you do, for good or bad, will come back to you threefold. But there's no ledger or account involved, I just believe that's the way the world works. If you shit on people, people will shit on you. If you are kind to others, others will be kind to you. Even if it's bullshit, living my life as though it is true certainly hasn't done me any harm.

[Chulanowa]

130. Wait... that... How...

Oh god, I think a blood vessel in my eye just burst.

First off, rape is rape, there are no asterisks.

That said. Really? Someone tried to play karma on it? Holy shit, who was this idiot, so I can shit in a box and mail it to them?

Motherfuckers need a dictionary before they start using words.

[cali]

2. excellent. k&r

[saltpoint]

3. The point you're making aside, the post looks like rape pancakes.

If Polanski winds up in a U.S. courtroom sooner or later his defense attorneys will be focused on the matters at hand without the syntactic theatrics. Win or lose in this particular case, almost no case is really simple.

[moriah]

5. "Rape pancakes"?

Pardon my ignorance, but what pop culture reference am I missing here? (I personally prefer to cut up my pancakes and then masticate them....)

[saltpoint]

9. Quite off the subject, I do like blueberry pancakes.

This may not be the proper venue to say so, but I am putty in the hands of tyrants were a heaping plate of blueberry pancakes to be placed before me.

This is the source of secret power in the known world, IMO.

[EmilyAnne]

7. Roman Polanski's entire defense is syntactic theatrics. He admitted to raping a 13 year old girl.

He ran away rather than face a sentence.

Those are facts.

[saltpoint]

10. Sorry. No trial has been undertaken. As speculated, one could be calendared

but none has been to date.

In the legal system of most nations' histories, there are jostlings and readjustments. There will be in this trial, if there is to be one scheduled, as well.

[Howardx]

46. no need for a trial

he admitted guilt. end of story.

[closeupready]

72. Ding ding ding! We have a winner folks.

+1000

[saltpoint]

110. My strong hunch is that any attorney he might hire in any trial that

might be calendared would disagree with your conclusion.

[Dawson Leery]

139. That is correct.

It is absolutely disgusting to see so many in Hollywood come to his defense.

[pnwmom]

119. You don't need a trial when there's a guilty plea. n/t

[SoCalDem]

57. Wouldn't the trial (if there's a trial) be about the FLIGHT? and not the rape?

He admitted guilt in the rape (see Larry Craig's admission, and later attempt to "take it back").

He apparently fled just before the sentence was to be handed down to him.

From a purely legal standpoint, any trial probably would focus on the flight, not the rape, which he already admitted, and any new sentence for the flight would probably be tacked onto whatever sentence he would have received.

Was it ever released to the public, what his sentence was to have been, or did the judge just keep it sealed, once he became a fugitive?

[saltpoint]

111. Unless one of us here on this site or somewhere else has some kind of

insider info, we'll likely have to wait and see.

[SoCalDem]

113. It's public record that he pled guilty to the rape charges

The only crime to be litigated now is the flight from justice charge..if they choose to bring it. (they must be planning to, or why nab him in Switzerland?).

I wonder though, if the original sentence the judge had planned for him would be enforced, since he's died. Maybe a new judge will have to review all the testimony and enter a new sentence:shrug:

won;t lose any sleep over it.. the court system will slog through it all and Polanski will probably be dead & buried before they arrive at consensus. the only given here is that a bunch of lawyers will be making a lot of money.

[saltpoint]

115. I could see a lawyer or two making some serous money on this.

I can also see the "reality tv" execs going haywire over coverage.

I also see lots and lots of really really lousy journalism, likely worse than the Octomom coverage or even the Terri Schiavo coverage, which were both abominable.

My plan is to ingest 700 micrograms of LSD and watch THUNDERBALL repeatedly til it's all over.

[Democracyinkind]

4. Don't forget to blame the Swiss for America's actions. while you're at it.

In America, sexuality trumps politics everytime.

Let's hope we'll never have a horny president again.

[EmilyAnne]

14. Or can I blame America for Switzerland's actions?

What to do, what to do.
Its confusing.

[Hannah Bell]

6. and the point of creating yet another thread to make the same stupid, bogus point you've

already made 100 times on each of the 100 polanski threads still current?

[EmilyAnne]

8. Dearest Hannah, Please accept my apologies for calling you two nasty names.

I am sure that you are a perfectly lovely and intelligent person who simply takes issue with my discussion of the degrees of rape.
To answer your question, the point of my posting this thread was to make a stupid and bogus point about something that I don't care about at all.
No doubt, your pointed reply hit so close to home that I got flustered and called you names.

[Hannah Bell]

11. lol. i'll let your post speak for itself.

[saltpoint]

12. This is of course just a layperson's perspective, but it does appear to this

observer that calling someone an "idiot and an asshole" is well, overly provocative.

It's not polite to use naughty names to call people when other, more civil words are available.

If Clifford the Big Red Dog were here, think how bad you'd make him feel by using such rough-hewn expressions.

[EmilyAnne]

17. You're right. And I really loved Clifford the Big Red Dog so very much. I'll take the post down

and apologize because you are so very sweet. And also for Clifford.

[saltpoint]

19. I've been a Clifford fan for some time now, God Help Me. He's such a

good dog.

[EmilyAnne]

22. So helpful, too. Like when you need to get a kitten out of a tree or enter a second story window

from the outside.

Emily Elizabeth sure picked the right puppy!

[saltpoint]

23. Agree. Clifford is helpful and usful. He should probably start a church,

come to think of it.

I might go to that one.

[Hannah Bell]

36. i'll let this post speak for itself, too. as to your sterling qualifications to render judgement

on others.

[pnwmom]

15. Do you honestly think that the 13 year old was lying when

she said she told him no to a series of sex acts? And specifically, no to anal sex?

This wasn't just statutory rape -- which can involve consent, albeit of a minor -- this clearly did not involve consent.

[Hannah Bell]

37. have you read the different versions of events the victim has produced over the years?

have you read the results of the physical exam?

do you know why a plea bargain would have been accepted for such a purportedly heinous rape, involving forced anal intercourse of a 13 year old?

are you sure you know what happened?

[EmilyAnne]

52. Another rape category that I need to add to my original post?

Raped, but it couldn't have been that bad because there was a plea bargain?
Seriously?
Plea bargains are reached for all sorts of reasons for all sorts of heinous crimes.

Please tell me what version of the victim's account includes that she wasn't really 13 or that Polanski didn't really have sex with her?

Polanski himself gave sworn testimony to those two facts.

She was 13 and he had sex with her.

That's rape.

Its obvious that you saw the "Wanted and Desired" documentary and were moved by its vague insinuation that something was amiss about the physical exam.
Once again, I have no idea why the prosecution accepted a plea.
The facts remain that both Roman Polanski and Samantha Gailey swore to the same incriminating set of facts.
They had sex.
She was 13.

[Hannah Bell]

127. I haven't seen 'wanted & desired.' i was an adult when the case occurred, & it's my recollection

there was some issue with the physical exam, but i don't remember clearly, & i find nothing at all about the exam on the web.

i'm also unable to find polanski's statement, so i have no clue what he said in his deposition. post the deposition if you've read it.

forced anal rape of a 13-year-old would cause physical trauma, though, & no, typically that kind of thing isn't plea-bargained down to a slap on the wrist.

[pnwmom]

117. I know he pleaded guilty, then absconded before sentencing.

It's way past time for the justice system to work through his case, whatever it is.

[Nye Bevan]

18. .

[redqueen]

59. Jesus. (nt)

[geek tragedy]

25. Just like your continuous rape apolgia serves a great purpose. nt

[Hannah Bell]

39. there is no rape apologia except to those who only hear their own voice.

[Mixopterus]

81. She's not an apologist, you are just a fanatic.

From what I have read of Hannah's posts she is significantly more justice-minded than most, which can make one appear to be immoral or even callous by that excluded majority.

Punishing in a way that makes you feel good is NOT justice, it is moral gratification. Justice is supposed to be balanced in decision and execution, made to equalize society, not impoverish it.

[moriah]

30. What "bogus" point are you talking about?

That people are blaming the victim? That the excuses people are making for his behavior are sickening and shameful?

Do you honestly believe any of those excuses are valid? In your reality, is it okay for a man to ignore a woman's "no" because they aren't a virgin, because they allowed themselves to be alone with the man, because they consumed alcohol, because their mother wasn't taking an active interest in her daughter's safety?

Or another excuse that made me want to puke -- because he was so upset about his wife's murder seven years prior that he had to take comfort in an unwilling 13-year-old's vagina?

That's certainly not the way it is in my reality.

[Hannah Bell]

43. No one that I've seen trying to discuss this topic with the villagers is "excusing"

anything. But the villagers can't hear, they're too busy screaming. And so is the OP.

Impossible to talk to the mob. Your "reality".

[Odin2005]

45. You are pathetic.

[Hannah Bell]

47. exhibit a. light that torch, villager! kill the witch!

[Odin2005]

48. Punishing a CHILD RAPIST is a witch hunt?

You are pathetic, too.

[Hannah Bell]

49. lol, lol. straw, straw, who's got the straw, we'll use it to make torches!

so fucking stupid & pitiful. push their buttons & they'll burn the world for you.

[EmilyAnne]

55. You are a fascinating person, Hannah Bell. Its great to read your posts. I'm home with the flu

today ("possibly SWINE FLU", screams a lowly villager) and I just may seek out some of your work.

[girl gone mad]

107. A bit melodramatic, don't you think?

[Hannah Bell]

128. 8 million good germans say "no".

[girl gone mad]

131. I don't get the point you're trying to make.

In reviewing the facts of the matter:

Roman Polanski drugged and raped an underage girl.

Roman Polanski admitted to the crime.

Roman Polanski plead guilty to the crime.

Roman Polanski has never denied his guilt.

Roman Polanski fled the country to avoid serving a jail sentence.

It is not up to Roman Polanski to decide that because he is in disagreement with a judge over sentencing, he should be allowed to go free. That's not how our legal system works.

How is that like Nazi Germany, again?

[Hannah Bell]

133. another one. i've given up on talking to the deaf, sorry.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

138. Unless the World Socialist Web Site tells her otherwise.

[EmilyAnne]

53. Wow. Very arrogant there. The "villagers?" I wonder what Marx would think of your disdain of such

miserably common people such as myself.

How dare we question the sexual proclivities of the artistic elite?

By the way, if you really heard screaming when you read this thread, you may need help.

[Thickasabrick]

85. Villagers is a very apt description in this case nt

[Odin2005]

96. We are just vile sheep, dontcha know?

:eyes:

[CoffeeCat]

58. This is gross...

This man had sex with a minor.

If the villagers aren't screaming then our society is morally dead.

Normal people get outraged when 40-year old men have sex with children.

[NashVegas]

67. DING! DING! DING! DING!

He didn't just have sex with a minor. He raped. He raped a 7th-8th grade kid. It's bad enough we've come to treat the rape of adult women (and men) so casually, but I'll forgive you that because you said this:

If the villagers aren't screaming then our society is morally dead.

[Odin2005]

98. Meh, punishing artists that rape kids is so Bourgeois!

:sarcasm:

[Hannah Bell]

129. you & your buddies are the only folks pushing the "artists get to rape" meme.

no one other than you guys have said anything like that.

straw, straw, straw.

[moriah]

62. Villagers? What do you think this is, a M. Night Shyamalan flick?

"The guy got wrapped up with an old school free love nymph." -- Her attitude toward sex is relevant how?

"Big deal, you say? He's paid quite a karmic debt to date, already as well. Many do not realize that his father survived the Mauthausen-Gusen concentration camp in Austria, but his pregant mother died in 1942 in the Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration camp. Polanski himself escaped the Kraków Ghetto in 1943, and survived the war with the help of Polish Roman Catholic families. Given the recent death of Susan Atkins in prison, the Manson member who brutally murdered Polanski's wife, Sharon Tate and his unborn child, along with several friends staying at his home, it is hard not to look at Polanski's life in totality. If I had a vote, I'd say the debt is paid." While I might agree that he has suffered consequences of his actions insofar as restricted freedom of movement, how do tragic experiences long before the crime was committed contribute to paying a debt? Does that mean that anyone with a tragic childhood should be able to commit a serious crime but not be punished for it because the "debt is paid"?

In response to the question "Why does he deserve a pass for child rape?": http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6639021&mesg_id=6639191">"Per the victim, she was neither forced nor virginal, & was interrupted during the proceedings by angelica houston, yet didn't ask for help. her mother sent her, alone, into the hands of a known lech, at night, to shoot topless photos." -- I'm pretty sure you might be familiar with this post. They later tried to backpedal by saying they weren't excusing his actions, but "saying the poster's representation of events is mistaken." The poster had represented the events as "child rape" and "a horrible crime" -- that backpedal succeeded in digging themselves another hole by saying it was not rape or a horrible crime to fuck a 13 year old due to those circumstances. By law it was rape, and an adult taking advantage of a minor for his own self-satisfaction is a horrible crime even if she wanted to have sex. Even if she danced the hoochie-coochie buck naked in front of him, he should have had the self-restraint to refuse her advances -- he was the adult. While I don't want teens to have sex, if they're going to it should be with people their own age, not people more than three times their age. The power differential is too great between an adult and a child.

Yes, all of those statements are excuses. People keep saying they don't excuse what he did, but they can dig up all sorts of reasons why he shouldn't be punished for it. I'd actually respect people a lot more if they said he shouldn't be punished because they didn't think he did anything at all and believed both Samantha and Roman to be liars when they said he did have sex with her, instead of digging up childhood tragedies, the victim's sexual history, and her failure to scream loud enough to get Ms. Huston's attention as reasons to not punish a crime they say they believe occurred.

And I certainly wish people would stop using the excuse that the victim doesn't want a new trial as a reason to not punish him under his original guilty plea. I'm not sure if you saw the letter that her attorneys had written to the judge who accepted the guilty plea, but the letter stated that they wanted the judge to accept the plea so that Samantha wouldn't have her identity disclosed at trial. In other words, the only reason he got off with such a light charge instead of the charges that were more appropriate to the seriousness of the crime was because the victim was too afraid of publicity to ensure he was punished as he deserved. No victim should have to make the choice between their name plastered in the news and their rapist walking free. Of course she doesn't want any more publicity! But that does not negate the fact that he pled guilty and admitted in the plea hearing that he knew she was 13, that he had sex with her anyway, and that the only promise represented to him was dropping all charges other than unlawful intercourse with a minor -- he swore under oath that no offer for a reduced sentence was made. She should not have to testify again.

[Thickasabrick]

83. It's kinda like throwing chum in the ocean and watching sharks

come to feed. With each new thread there provides more opportunity to scream their faux outrage for the victim. Funny thing, they don't give a shit how the victim feels about any of this.

[moriah]

122. I do care, but I place the blame for what she's gone through on the person who caused it.

He is the person who has put her through decades of media exposure because he wasn't willing to face the music. This would have been over with long ago had he had the balls to face justice.

[girl gone mad]

106. Actually, it appears that you are trying to excuse a crime..

on the grounds of rumor and misdirection.

[Buzz Clik]

13. Statutory rape in consentual sex? That one was mentioned as well.

[EmilyAnne]

16. Yes. Its not REAL rape. Never mind the transcript in which the victim states that she told him to

"keep away."

[Prophet 451]

20. Here are the only kinds of rape that matter

Date/acquintance rape.
Gang rape.
War rape.
Prison rape.
Control-excitation rape.
Anger-excitation rape.

Why do those matter? They are the six main psychological models of rapist behaviour and they help us catch rapists more quickly. The rest is pretty much irrelevent and, on a personal level, I dislike the term "date rape" as well.

[EmilyAnne]

21. Statutory rape can fall in three of these categories, it seems. Would you agree?

This case would be acquaintance rape.
Interesting that there isn't a unique category for rapists that target children.
Why do you think that is?

Thanks for posting this, by the way.
Its very interesting.

[Prophet 451]

27. Statutory can theoretically fit into any

I would imagine there's no psychological model for rapists who specifically target children because the categories are based upon the internal psychological processes of the perp rather than the victimology. To put that more simply, it's not who, it's why. Also, most child rapists fit into one of the existing categories. For example, the stereotypical child rapist, the family friend or authority figure who targets those he has been entrusted to care for, usually falls under control-excitation. As a general model, he constructs a mental fantasy around the victim which he then retreats into. When the opportunity presents itself, he will attempt to force the victim into compliance, becoming violent if resisted. In that case, it is his control over the victim (by forcing her/him into compliance with his fantasies) which excites him. Depending on the level of satisfaction he (almost always a man) derives from his crime, he may not reoffend for months or years unlike the anger-excitation rapist who will find the gap between his crimes becoming ever shorter (on an individual level, anger-excitations are the most dangerous as they always esculate and often esculate to murder).

Acquintance rape is usually an "impulse crime". That doesn't necessarily mean it's spur-of-the-moment. In fact, the perp may have made preperations beforehand in the form of plying the victim with drugs or alcohol or preparing a "rape kit". Rather, it means that they have not mentally committed themselves to the crime until moments before they begin to enact it. For example in this case (assuming the veracity of reports), Polanski made some preperations in the form of supplying the victim with drugs and alcohol but at that point, he probably hadn't mentally committed himself to the crime and could still have walked away with relatively minor or perhaps no repercussions. At some point though, the impulse toward the crime forces the matter to teh top of his mind and he commits himself to the commission of the crime.

[TorchTheWitch]

24. WTF???

What is this shit? Child rape is ok? Raping someone who is unconscious or otherwise unable to consent is ok? Raping someone who says no but the rapist thinks they really mean yes is ok? Raping someone just because you think they're hot but they aren't interested in you is ok? Raping a prostitute because you think because they sell sex that all their orfices are fair game is ok? Raping your wife/husband because they are your spouse is ok?

ALL kinds of rape matter! Raping someone regardless of the reason is NEVER ok.

[moriah]

26. All but the prostitute example fall under acquaintance rape...

And in that case, it could theoretically be called "date" rape -- I have often heard an interaction with a prostitute called a "date".

[Prophet 451]

29. Prostitute rape does fall under acquintance/"date" rape

Since there are at least two people there, who have some kind of understanding between them, it comes under acquintance rape.

(I dislike the term "date rape" because it suggests forced sex after dinner and a movie is somehow different from other kinds of rape. Since we need to use a term, I prefer "acquintance rape")

[TorchTheWitch]

35. not necessarily

A person who knows that a woman is a prositute merely by their observation of them or what they have otherwise learned about them and rapes her even though she has never met or seen him before or made any arrangement with him is not acquaintence rape.

A person who rapes someone who is unconscious can just as easily be a stranger as an acquaintence.

A person who rapes a minor can just as easily be a stranger as an acquaintence.

A person who rapes someone just because they think they're hot can just as easily be a stranger as an acquaintence.

A person who rapes someone because they believe that "no" really means "yes" can just as easily be a stranger as an acquaintence.

[Prophet 451]

41. To take them in order

The first example falls under either control-excitation or anger-excitation, depending on the perps state of mind. Ditto the others. Remember, these categories aren't exclusive. It is possible (although not hugely common) for a rapist to fall into several categories.

[Prophet 451]

28. Way to miss my point

What I was saying is that the only "kinds" of rape that matter are the kinds we use to figure out how to catch rapists. In other words, ALL rape is of equal importantance. We divide them into types to target investigation more effectively. Since that's about catching rapists, I would imagine it's pretty clear that I'm not saying any kind of rape is ever ok.

Any further problems understanding where I am on this issue, feel free to ask.

[TorchTheWitch]

40. your point was a clear as mud

Just how is someone to get your apparent point that all rape is of equal importance by saying only x, y, and z type of rapes are relevant particularly when that list leaves out other types of rape?

[Prophet 451]

42. Because ALL rape falls into one or more of those six categories n/t

[NashVegas]

32. You Forgot One

Rape in which the accused perpetrator isn't someone I admire.

[pnwmom]

118. Polanski was guilty of acquaintance rape, control rape, and child rape.

Also, rape with drugs and alcohol.

[Prophet 451]

132. The last two are covered

Drugs and alcohol fit into acquintance and the choice of victim is immaterial for this form of categorisation since it's based on the state of mind of the rapist rather than the choice of victim.

[Vinca]

31. He admitted his guilt and he's been a fugitive from justice.

I'm still not getting the outrage over the arrest. He should return, face the judge and hope the fact the victim doesn't want him punished has some weight with the court.

[NashVegas]

33. True, That

If the victim refuses to testify the state has no case. That he refuses, at the age of 79, to face the court says much about how he still hasn't really grown up. I feel sorry for him, but there are plenty of other brilliant artists out there who do own their shit.

[leftynyc]

71. May I ask

Why you feel sorry for him?

[NashVegas]

73. Because He Can't/Won't Grow Up and Own His Shit

He's caught in his own trap.

[leftynyc]

74. If he were a kid or a teenager

I'd think you were humane in feeling sorry for him. An adult man who did what he did and has not escaped justice for decades gets no sympathy from me. He should die in jail.

[NashVegas]

78. I'm Sorry

That you are unable to feel sorry for someone at the same time you wish for them to face the consequences of their actions.

[redqueen]

60. "outrage over the arrest"?

Really?

I'm speechless.

[Odin2005]

123. It's really disgusting.

Whoopi Goldberg and the French government are defending him! :crazy:

[varelse]

38. "Thankfully, we have laws to override such ignorance."

I'd like to email your post to some people, if you don't mind?

[Odin2005]

44. This crap sound so much like my friend's rapist was defended, it's pathetic.

"She has emotional issues and is prone to look for attention"

"She's lying"

"She's saying it so her BF won't get mad"

"She's being hysterical"

:puke:

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

56. This needs to be said, and you won't like it.....

....I find your constant proclivity to reference you friend's victimization in every thread about rape tasteless. That young woman was the victim, you weren't. Please stop using it to give your opinions the weight you think they need.

And I'm all for Polanski's arrest and making him face the court. So don't take that route either.

[reflection]

65. Not to pile on, but I agree completely.

Odin, it's as if you find a way to insert your friend's rape into every thread that has a womens issue at the center of it (or even tangentially to it).

Rape is a terrible, horrible thing, but it's almost as if you define yourself by what happened to your friend.

And I also want Polanski to answer for his alleged crimes.

[Odin2005]

93. Sorry, didn't mean to be obsessive, It just ticked me off because of the same misogynistic memes...

...floating around used to excuse rape.

[ismnotwasm]

50. Wow

Great post and thank you


I've stayed off the topic here at DU for the most part, so I AM a little startled at the rape apologists. I mean I heard about 'em, but.. damn. Such serious weirdness and attempts at twilight zone logic to make rape not rape.

My inner armchair psychologist would have to work overtime with heavy dictionaries on the reasons for this and I'm off to work, so I'll have to forgo that dubious pleasure.

[EmilyAnne]

64. You're welcome. This has been very surprising to me, as well. I'm really having a hard time with

these denials. Its quite disgusting.

[Piwi2009]

84. Some of these people are unbelievable

We KNOW there are degrees of rape. We know some could even be called "lesser" rapes. What we are stating, is that the Polanski case is NOT one of these "lesser, forgivable ones." Anyone trying to make that point is an idiot. Her rape was about as bad as it gets and no excuses for it. It's an injustice.

[BlooInBloo]

51. Oh. Well, as long as it's not rape-rape.

[Romulox]

54. Raped, but he's a (non-black!) celebrity!

:sarcasm:

[Bolo Boffin]

70. Oops. n/t

[HughMoran]

61. "Hide Thread"

That's the only kind I know - this subject has been beat to death.

[reflection]

63. Proud kick and rec. I can't believe what I see here sometimes.

I know that DU rarely agrees on anything, but this seems so *obvious*. You said it very well, EmilyAnne.

[rbixby]

66. Granted there are things that people can do to lessen the chances

of being sexually assaulted, but that doesn't make rape or any kind of sexual assault justified or any less wrong. I'm not speaking of the Roman Polanski case in particular, but engaging in risky behavior can increase the chances of this type of crime happening. Its the same thing as saying to someone who's home was burglarized that if they had an armed guard, this wouldn't have happened, so its obviously their own fault.
I've never been able to understand this whole blaming the victim thing, when its obviously the perpetrator who has committed the crime. Just because someone has an opportunity to commit a crime doesn't mean that its the victim's fault for providing that opportunity, whether on purpose or unwittingly.

[WildEyedLiberal]

68. Don't forget "Raped, but the 70s were a different time! It was wild back then!"

"I wouldn't expect you young puritans to understand what it was like back then!"

They're right. I don't think I'll ever understand a mentality that condones and excuses child rape.

[Piwi2009]

69. Whoopi is just plain dumb-dumb

She's got it wrong, right from the start. She's going by what he was charged for and not what he actually did. But what you did and what you're charged with might not be the same thing.

They had to get him on the lesser charge, coz going to trial on the "rape-rape" mightve been too risky. The victim might have bailed on the prosecutors, like Michael Jackson's 1st victim. But his crime meets all the elements of "rape-rape" as Whoopi calls it. I don't know what more Polanski could've done to her.

[H2O Man]

75. Recommended.

Thank you for this OP.

[Mixopterus]

77. Interesting

But not entirely correct. If we have different degrees of severity for murder, which is considered the worst of all crimes, then it stands to reason we should have degrees of any lesser crime as well, including rape. One of the rationales for such a system is to punish the criminal in proportion to the crime (in theory), not treat every crime with a broad brush and corresponding punishment, which always leads to more harm than good.

I simply cannot see punishing a lesser charge of murder the same as premeditated and cold blooded killing, as it would make no sense. Similarly, the lesser charge of murder would also carry the same sentence of premeditated murder, offering no distinction between the two. In such a case, the charge would simply be "murder" and punished as such. I simply cannot see how such a system would be justified.

Likewise, why should we treat and punish a case of muddled "date rape" the same as the rare but far more brutal crime of an ambush sexual assault? Morally, they are perhaps similar if not the same, but legally I cannot see the point in treating them as equal crimes.

[geek tragedy]

79. "muddled date rape'

FAIL.

The need for deterrence (i.e. harsh punishment) is greater for date rape than for 'ambush' rape.

[Mixopterus]

80. Deterrence is a myth

People do crimes for stupid and irrational reasons, do you honestly think that "Wow, I will be punished and the punishment will be severe" runs through the minds of people while they are in situations that are effecting their rational faculties, such as murder in the heat of the moment and sexual advances that went too far? That is precisely the reason we charge those crimes (and they are crimes) less severely than the premeditated rape and murder.

And how harshly shall we charge the date rape? A what line would you be comfortable with? I, personally, would be loath to put the crime of date rape within the same punishment category as murder, for example, otherwise you'll be seeing a lot less rape victims and therefore witnesses and more homicides.

[geek tragedy]

87. Absolutely lots of men refrain from raping for fear of jail time.

Date rape should be like any other rape--20 years behind bars minimum.

[Mixopterus]

95. Really?

Everything I have read suggests that the repercussions almost never enter into the person's mind during crimes of the moment, only after.

[geek tragedy]

135. that's for the crimes that DO happen.

There would be a lot more 'crimes of the moment' if people could get away with it.

[Odin2005]

99. Wrong.

A study posted on DU several times said that 35% of college-age males would commit rape if there were no legal repercussions, so fear of jail time and sex offender status IS deterring rape

[Mixopterus]

100. Oh boy

Most humans would commit certain crimes if they rationally understood they would not get caught, that is basic psychology.

My argument, however has nothing to do with your study. If you would be so kind as to re-read my statement, I state that individuals -in the moment- do not rationally comprehend much but what is happening in the moment. That is the legal basis for not trying crimes of the moment as if they were rational, premeditated crimes.

[noiretextatique]

102. so a rapist doesn't understand what he is doing "in the moment"

and rape isn't a rational, premeditated crime. sounds very much like most apologists.

[Mixopterus]

104. Depends on the case

That is why we have degrees of sexual assault and murder.

[Odin2005]

108. That is why deterrence is only half the equation.

The other is keeping the offending individuals away from the rest of society. and, if possible, rehabilitate them so they do not act on those impulses any more.

[Odin2005]

112. Oh, and you don;t think rapists plan on raping people?

:wtf:

[Mixopterus]

120. Oh my, someone didn't read my posts

What part about "degrees of rape" and "in the moment vs. premeditated" didn't you comprehend?

There are rapes that occur in the moment, and rapes that are premeditated. I already went over this.

[Piwi2009]

86. "We shouldn't treat a date rape like a 'rape-rape' "

Nah, we shouldn't. But when we have an outright, gen yoo wine, honest-ta-good case of "Rape-rape," we shouldn't apologize/defend/minimalize it either.

[noiretextatique]

91. rape is rape

per the OP. there are no "degrees" of rape.

[Mixopterus]

97. YES THERE ARE

Degrees of rape! There are real, legal standards regarding the degrees of rape!

MORALITY =/= LAW. PERIOD.

Ethical standards CAN translate into law depending on the system of organization, but personal morality almost NEVER translates into law.

[noiretextatique]

101. a "date" rape is more heinous than an "abudution" rape, according to you

i wonder if the victims would agree with you...doubt it.

[Mixopterus]

105. Wait... what?

What are you talking about? An abduction/assault rape is considered a worse offense than a date rape. What the hell?

[moriah]

125. We already have the ability to punish the ciminal in porportion to the crime.

This is based on Arkansas law, as I'm more familiar with it than other states...

In Arkansas, by statutory definition the offense of "rape" is committed when a person has intercourse or "deviate sexual activity" with someone by forcible compulsion; with someone who cannot consent because they are physically helpless, mentally defective, or mentally incapacitated; with a person under 14 if they are more than three years older than the victim; or with a person under 18 if they are more than three years older than the victim and also related to the victim -- the law states specifically the following relationships: the victim's guardian, uncle, aunt, grandparent, step-grandparent, grandparent by adoption, brother or sister of the whole or half blood or by adoption, nephew, niece, or first cousin. The minimum sentence for a conviction (either by plea or jury) of rape when the victim was under 14 is 25 years. Otherwise, sentences can run from 14 years to life depending on criminal history and what the jury feels is appropriate.

There are also four degrees of sexual assault under Arkansas law, with the severity being ranked by the act (did intercourse occur or only sexual contact?), the age of the victim, and the power differential between the victim and the perpetrator (it's third degree sexual assault for a preacher to have sex with a parishioner of any age, a psychiatrist or doctor to have sex with a patient of any age, or a corrections officer to have sex with an inmate of any age). A jury can choose to convict on a lesser included offense in most cases, so if the jury felt that the standard for the offense of "rape" was not committed but a lesser included offense was, they can convict on that instead.

That gives a very wide range of punishment, allowing for discretion to punish serial ambush rapists more severely than first-time offenders. And I must say that my interpretation of your use of the word "muddled" indicates that you are referring to cases where there is doubt about what happened. It's the responsibility of the prosecution to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that a crime was committed. If there is reasonable doubt, there should not be a conviction in the first place, so your "muddled date rape" suspect would likely not be punished at all.

[Piwi2009]

82. Rape rape--where DU'er's will accuse you of over-outrage by proxy

and take you to task for undelicate, insufficiently dainty posts. Please, you're forgetting yourself!

[jaysunb]

88. Times have really changed,

as one poster already stated. Things that happened back then probably would have a much less chance of happening today. Some changes are no doubt a result of some of the things that were acceptable or addressed differently back then.

"It was just him and me. He took some standard pictures but when I I changed clothes he continued to take photos," Samantha says. "He took top-less pictures of me but it all seemed very professional and I did as I was told."

Most young girls today would probably not let an adult take topless or nude photos of them. right ? :shrug:

She remembers: "He took shots of me everywhere. He was taking pictures and topping up my glass constantly." After four or five glasses Samantha was tipsy. Soon he was photo-graphing her nude in a whirlpool bath. Then Polanski stripped off and joined her.

Theres lot more here: http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/news/2005/07/25/exclusive-polanski-raped-me-when-i-was-13-he-is-a-creep-115875-15775812/
including then and now photos.

I'm with the "victim," it's time to move on. Times, laws and most certainly behaviors have changed.

[EmilyAnne]

140. How you can read that and come to such a conclusion boggles my mind. She was 13-years old. If what

Polanski did that night was the norm, why were charges pressed?

Why did the mother involve the police?

And the laws of the time said that this child was raped. So, no, the laws haven't changed.

[burning rain]

89. Good list. Might also add, "Raped, but by a rich guy."

"This is America: prison's for the poor."

[MoonRiver]

90. K&R, for a refreshing breath of reality

I haven't been following the DU pro-Polanski posts, so I can only imagine.

[JerseygirlCT]

92. It's astounding, and infuriating to me

Rape is rape is rape.

No way to dress it up.

No way to make it less.

No way to exculpate the rapist, regardless of his occupation.

[noiretextatique]

94. hi EmilyAnne

thanks for the post :thumbsup: i don't know how long you've been here, but there have been several wars here over this subject, and several really creepy apologists were banned.
you have quite the sense of humor, per a few exchanges in this thread...a master of well-deserved ridicule :rofl:

[hfojvt]

103. what about

raped, but he did 45 days in jail and that's punishment enough.

raped, but the judge wanted to put a rapist in prison, so he didn't get a fair trial.

[Piwi2009]

109. Rape, but if we DUer's take it to task, we'll smack too much of the hated Freepers

and we can't have that!

[BuyingThyme]

114. Raped gumbo, coconut raped...

[BlooInBloo]

137. Ok, that was funny.

[redqueen]

141. Really? You think so?

Hmmmm

[Berry Cool]

124. Don't forget

"Raped, but punishing him now would just be exacting vengeance on our part."

"Raped, but we shouldn't care, because we are not expressing equal outrage over all the poor kids raped at Gitmo."

[JPZenger]

126. Polanski Raped Her Many Times in One Night

This crime was heinous, and not something you just forget because the French allowed him to hide out and make more movies. He should receive the same penalty as any ordinary person who did this crime and then became a fugitive.

Also, considering Hillary Clinton's long-time interest in children's issues, I wouldn't be surprised if she was involved behind the scenes in bringing Polanski to justice.

[Odin2005]

134. The behavior of the French government is heinous!

[EmilyAnne]

136. One in six U.S. women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime.

To those of you who bemoan the discussion of this case on Democratic Underground, maybe it hits a cord with so many of us because, statistically, some of us have been victims of sexual assault.

To see so many alleged progressives using the same sort of primitive thinking that progressives have been fighting for years is disgusting.