Questions for DU's self-identified "Socialists"

[HamdenRice]

I'm curious why those who identify as "Socialists" seem primarily to rely on Trotskyite sources and analysis, epitomized by World Socialist Web Site and Socialist Worker. Those organizations tend to focus their criticism on the Democratic Party and existing trade unions as criminal conspiracies against the interests of the working class.

By contrast, the largest Socialist party in the United States is Democratic Socialists of America. DSA works with, but also criticizes, the Democratic Party.

WSWS's affiliate party is Socialist Equality Party, which is headed by someone who calls himself "David North," but whose real name is "David Green," a Michigan businessman. It does not publish membership figures, but its total membership is estimated to be around 400.

DSA, by contrast, has a paid up membership of around 13,000 (about 30 times bigger than SEP) as well as hundreds of thousands of passive supporters (like me, sometimes). DSA's leadership consists of well known public intellectuals, writers, trade union leaders, activists and even elected politicians, like Noam Chomsky, Barbara Ehrenreich, Cornel West, Gloria Steinem, Ed Asner, Ron Dellums, Dolores Huerta (co-founder of United Farmworkers), and William W. Winpisinger (President of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers). None of the leadership of the DSA hide their real identities or occupations the way the leadership of WSWS does.

DSA has backed Green Party candidates, but more frequently backs candidates from the progressive wing of the Democratic Party.

So why don't DU's "Socialists" ever cross post material from DSA? Why do so many of DU's "Socialists" think that the Democratic Party is the enemy, when America's primary socialist party considers the Democrats a useful mechanism for advancing progressive socialist causes? What do you think of the position of the majority of socialists in the United States -- are they somehow suffering from "false consciousness"?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

1. Link:

http://www.dsausa.org/dsa.html

[HamdenRice]

2. Thanks -- hopefully people will go there and check it out. nt

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

4. I didn't even know about them. Apparently the annual convention is going to be held

20 minutes from where I live.

[HamdenRice]

6. Cool! Hope you can check it out. Cornell West is an amazing speaker! nt

[EmilyAnne]

7. I have and I will continue to visit that site. Thanks so much for this post. nt

[tekisui]

3. I like DSA, and I too believe that their must be an alliance

with the progressives in the Democratic Party. The Democratic Party is the only power center for Progressives or Socialists. There is no other place within the halls of government to be heard. That is why Bernie Sanders caucuses with the Dems. It is also why I support Democrats. The more Dems, the higher percentage of Progressives there will be in the government.

[HamdenRice]

5. Thanks for your input. Is Bernie officially a Socialist and/or member of DSA? nt

[tekisui]

8. He is a Democratic Socialist.

But not formally a member of any party.

[imdjh]

9. I always thought Socialism was a phase...

....between adolescence and adulthood called "residence hall resident" or RHR's.

But seriously, I have yet to see an article linked to DU from the White Suburban Wombat Site that isn't glaringly contrived and poorly written.

[HamdenRice]

10. Funny use of the acronym. But really WHERE ARE THE WSWS FANS? I'm truly curious

about their answers to this question.

[tjwash]

11. They show up in the middle of the night to spam the board with wsws links.

You'll get a couple of responses then.

[HamdenRice]

19. I doubt they'll seriously engage the question. See post 12 et seq. nt

[imdjh]

13. Paging Cornwallis, Amber and Simon! Paging Cornwallis, Amber and Simon!

[Romulox]

21. Any links to "them"? (Wouldn't the Red Scare have been fun in the age of the 'net?) nt

[imdjh]

54. Maybe in the early days of the internet. Sometime between AOL's demise and....

..... people finding out that they still weren't anonymous, it might have been interesting.

[Romulox]

12. Oh boy! He's awake!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6646430&mesg_id=6646736

:silly:

[HamdenRice]

14. As usual -- you have nothing substantive to say

Why not give us your take. Why WSWS and not DSA?

[Romulox]

15. Right. But to be fair, neither do you.

:hi:

[HamdenRice]

16. Did you read the OP? It was a substantive description of DSA, its membership, leadership ...

and strategy vis a vis the Democratic Party. That's substantive.

Now the question -- why WSWS and not DSA if you consider yourself socialist?

[Romulox]

17. I don't think your framing of the "issue" has any merit.

Which is why it ultimately cannot sustain any real debate. Who are you to demand I or anyone else first adopt the mantle of "socialist" in preparation for taking sides in this made up dichotomy that seems to exist primarily in your own head? :shrug:

I don't think there is an "issue" here in the first instance. Nor does the bulk of DU, based on the responses to these threads. Again, :shrug:

[HamdenRice]

18. I'm not demanding anything. I'm asking a simple question

which is why do you find the analysis or positions of WSWS more convincing than that of DSA which would seem to represent the views of the majority of socialists in America, as well as the majority of socialist intellectuals and trade unionists.

It's a simple question.

[BOG PERSON]

20. Why would anybody support a party that subordinates itself to the Democrats?

That seems like a big waste of time.

[KittyWampus]

23. The word is CO-ordinate. And from a practical and even philosophical standpoint-

because of a large number of shared goals.

[BOG PERSON]

24. What goal is shared between the DSA and the Democrats?

Getting Democrats elected?

[HamdenRice]

25. I can understand that you don't think the Democrats have any credibility

or present any possibility as a venue for progressive change. It happens to be a view I disagree with, but fine -- that's your view.

But if that's your view, why are you posting on a site called DemocraticUnderground, which despite it's critical stance, ultimately is for Democrats?

In other words, why wouldn't there be more socialists of the DSA perspective here than the WSWS perspective?

[BOG PERSON]

26. My opinion of the Democrats isn't important

I just think that if you like like Democrats then you ought to be a Democrat. If you share the same goals as the rest of the rank-and-file Democrats, then you ought to work for Democrats instead of pretending to be a socialist.

[Democracyinkind]

22. Because Chomsky and the like have lost all credibility and significance in certain circles

While I don't think I'm a DU Socialist, I thought I might answer anyway.

[HamdenRice]

27. Please explain

Do you think Chomsky has lost support to his left or to the center?

[Democracyinkind]

28. It's not easy to say. Maybe it's more a generational thing.

Maybe it's both. The people I was referring to were probably to the left of Chomsky et al, but have now pretty much resigned from designating themselves in terms of the right/left paradigm. Some have become Libertarians (a curious phenomenon considering that this happened in Europe too) but most have pretty much given up on this kind of political discourse.

And of course 9/11 has much to do with it, but this line of discussion only marginally touches the subject of WSWS and co., for whose opinion I too do not care much. But I think it is fair to say that Chomsky, Zinn and the kind of analysis they provide have lost much significance with my generation of intellectuals, in my experience that is.

[Taverner]

39. And if Chomsky's wrong, that obviously means Socialism is wrong.

Okayyyyyyy...... :eyes:

[Democracyinkind]

40. yeah. that was my point.. thanks..

..(?)

[kestrel91316]

29. DSA needs to market themselves more effectively to progressive Democrats.

I wasn't aware of the WSWS/DSA thing until recently.

I definitely lean DSA!!!

[HamdenRice]

32. Glad to provide some new info! nt

[bridgit]

30. Well I think for many 'socialist' DUer's that is the gist of it...

They, simply enough, have cast out, like a fish net, from anything even remotely *so-called* American by way of a differentiated, Byzantine distrust *of* anything America and her ability to provide visions of 'I don't wanna work, I just wanna bang on da'drum all day' in the side-street-sun of a Caribbean plaza and other ~ so-called ~ scenarios filled with other flags, banners, bumper-stickers, and politicians whether they be in a Trotsky, Marx, Rand, Friedman, Greenspan world of annexation with it's own celebratory stratification of twinkling stars, autographed red bandannas, and a glitter-glued work force and so "false consciousness"?

Mm, well, I do think that is able to fit in many such breaches including this one to some extent; but it is more the case that Socialism is not the key that opens that lock; that lock is not a keyed lock it is a combination lock ~

Social services, life sustaining industry: power, clean air/water, health, education, etc, are too important to be laid into either 'the invisible hand', or the hands of Bonnie & Clyde so their operation needs to reside with the people and not privatized in such a way they become food for vampires

And no I'm not necessarily talking about a strawberry stand, or a tamale cart with an umbrella; but people with creative ideas need access to capital & process that encourages, perhaps even rewards innovation. And that's what seems misunderstood. They've taken the initial clarion calls for, from, and by; a time & date stamped socialist romance, and carved them into stone, though, of course, while having been carved in antique stone far older than socialist words they themselves are become immovable...

Which can be a contributor as to why some are unable to look to either side or behind them. Certainly staring in one direction only reinforces a disinclination to do so

[grantcart]

31. Out of curiousity how did their Presidential candidates compare last couple of elections?

[HamdenRice]

33. Democratic Socialists of America endorsed Obama in 2008

It was a very thoughtful, critical endorsement, and the operative sentence was:

"While recognizing the critical limitations of the Obama candidacy and the American political system, DSA believes that the possible election of Senator Obama to the presidency in November represents a potential opening for social and labor movements to generate the critical political momentum necessary to implement a progressive political agenda."

WSWS and SEP hate Democrats and the traditional unions, so I seriously doubt they endorsed Obama. I think DSA also endorsed Kerry.

Here's DSA's full statement on the 2008 election:

http://www.dsausa.org/pdf/Statement_on_the_2008_Presidential_Election.pdf

[grantcart]

34. how did the SEP candidate do?

(Work with me Hamden!)

[HamdenRice]

35. Oh, you're mean!

I'll try to find out and get back to you. I suspect it was David North/Green.

[grantcart]

42. 2008 - Jerome White and Bill Van Auken

I read somewhere that they received about 2,000 votes.

However since they only received one vote in New York County that number would seem very high. They did match Tina Fey however.

http://www.vote.nyc.ny.us/pdf/results/2008/general/1.11NewYorkPresident_Recap.pdf

[HamdenRice]

43. We Democrats, as well as Democratic Socialists, are stupid ineffectual kool-aid drinkers ..

so what do we know?

That one guy who voted for SEP in New York -- he's the only one not suffering from "false consciousness"!

[Taverner]

36. I am not a "Socialist" - but I think Socialism can be applied in a positive way

I'm all for a mix of Socialism, Capitalism, and Distributism

[HamdenRice]

37. Actually, if you are for a mix of socialism and capitalism, arguably you're a socialist

because most socialist parties are for a mixed economy in which a capitalist sector remains.

[Taverner]

38. True - but every time I ask "what's wrong with Socialism?" I get jabbed with toothpicks

No one ever gives a real answer, they just go "AHHHH! SOCIALISM!! YOU COMMIE!!! IT WON'T WORK BECAUSE IT'S BAAAAAAD VERY BAAAAAAD!!!"

[HamdenRice]

41. Kicking for a larger sample of answers nt

[and-justice-for-all]

44. I have never even heard of WSWS until you mentioned them...

So of course I do not use them as a resource.

SP-USA or DSA are my preferences. At all Democrats are bad, some are great while others are no better than pukes i.e. Bayh.

[armyowalgreens]

45. Ditto-Never heard of WSWS until a couple weeks ago.

I use the DSA and a few other sources.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[and-justice-for-all]

49. "...instructed to disrupt DU." Pukes do the same shit...nt

[Junkdrawer]

46. Are you saying you're a DSA Member?

Because, reading your posts, that would be news to me...

[HamdenRice]

50. I've always admired them, and I was friends with Cornell West ...

when he was a leader of Democratic Socialist Organizing Committee -- the precursor to Democratic Socialists of America. That was a long time ago.

I'm surprised that you're surprised. My posts have had a pretty consistent political perspective. The fact that I am utterly sick of Trotskyite lunatics does little to define my bedrock beliefs. Do a search on my posts and you'll see that I'm probably one of the few DUers who actually joined a socialist organization in a repressive country (United Democratic Front in South Africa 1988-89) and have consulted for a socialist country on environmental issues.

The whole point of this thread is that certain cult members who subscribe to the views of far left Trotskyite web sites (SEP-WSWS) have tried to portray themselves as "THE" socialists, to the exclusion of all others, when in fact they are marginal crackpots and cult members -- at best.

[Junkdrawer]

52. One example of why I'm surprised:

HamdenRice:
Single payer was always dead in the water. Get over it.

DSA:
Organizing for a National Single-Payer Healthcare System

[HamdenRice]

53. You're confusing advocacy with analysis

I wrote, "You may want single payer. I may want single payer."

Get it? I want single payer, but I know, from my analysis, that it isn't going to happen.

Btw, Cornell West, the honorary chairman of DSA did his early scholarship on the philosophy of "pragmatism." Pragmatism as a philosophical position, involves, among other things, looking at things as they actually are rather than how you would like them to be, and figuring out your strategy from there.

This is a big issue on DU. Why do you think that explaining how things are is the same as advocating the rightness of how things are?

I've interacted with you for a long time (iirc on the 9/11 forum) so I'm a bit puzzled that you would not understand my "pragmatic" positions.

On edit: Do you remember when South African Communist Party general secretary Joe Slovo wrote the essay on "the way forward" that enabled the ANC to compromise with the apartheid government?

[CocoaBeachCoco]

47. "McCarthy"?

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HamdenRice]

55. How is it McCarthy like to point out that WSWS has no actual socialist constituency

compared to the "real" Socialist party in the US?

[eridani]

56. I'm a paid member of DSA, but not of SEP

I have no idea why, but DSA publishes very little. If they put out more analysis, they'd probably be quoted more.

[HamdenRice]

57. Several leaders are very prolific on their own, but you're right they don't publish under DSA nt