The wailing and gnashing of teeth here shows how poorly Civics is taught in our schools

[scheming daemons]

Today's vote was a FINANCE COMMITTEE vote, not a full Senate vote.

It's just a way to get the bill out of Baucus' committee and then into the reconciliation process with the OTHER bills that have already cleared their committees.

There are 3 House bills that have cleared committee... and Baucus' will be the second Senate bill to do so.


All of them EXCEPT the Baucus bill have a Public Option.


The committees will have to reconcile their bills before they come up for a vote. The reconciled versions will likely HAVE a Public Option, given that the other four committee bills have one.



Those using today's committee procedural vote as an excuse to start "woe is us! Obama abandoned us!" threads are either ignorant, stupid, disingenuous, or all three.


Getting past the Finance Committee roadblock and on to the next step in the process was the ONLY THING that this vote was about.


There are two things that you don't want to watch being made: sausage and laws. The end product is usually ok, but if you watched it being made, it would make you vomit.


Wait until you see what the final bill looks like.


It will have a Public Option.


You'll see. And then... many of you (the ones with consciences) will feel sheepish and embarrassed at your nonsensical rendering here.

[polichick]

1. Nothing you've said is an excuse for those conservadems people are upset with. nt

[scheming daemons]

3. I'm talking about the "Obama abandoned us! P.O. is DEAD!" panic threads n/t

[malaise]

2. We know it's still possible but

FUCK the sellouts anyway.

[scheming daemons]

4. Yes... fuck the sellouts.... but you knew they were sellouts BEFORE today

[ShortnFiery]

14. We must Primary these traitors! Educate their constituents at the same time so that we

can encourage them to elect progressive democrats.

What good is a party when "the wealthy minority" controls the rights of "the majority?"

[enlightenment]

24. I get your point . . .

and don't fundamentally disagree with it - but, dang!

Did you notice how scarily totalitarian your phrasing sounds?

We must remove the traitors and (re)educate their constituents to think the way we do . . .


Yikes.

[ShortnFiery]

37. Because they are siding with the upper 1% over the needs of the rest of us.

Yes, I think they are traitors to our democratic value of fairness.

[enlightenment]

45. I wasn't criticizing - just commenting.

Mostly to the 'educate' phrasing (more than the traitor part).

[kath]

50. Well, when people of little or modest means are blatantly voting and protesting against their own

self-interest then they certainly need some edumacatin'.

Doesn't sound totalitarian to me. It's the corporations and the Repugs (and many Dems) that they control who are ruining our Democracy. Gov't by corporations is FASCISM.

An effort at "edumacation" may break through the ignorance of at least some of the teabagger morans and their ilk.
And educating passive Democrats and "independents" about which of our so-called "representatives" are no such thing (just corporate whores) can be only a good thing, IMHO.

[enlightenment]

56. I believe we're all entitled to our own perspective.

:)

[redqueen]

22. Yep. That amendment had a snowball's chance in hell.

It's the frickin Finance Committee.

[debbierlus]

27. The level of outcry against them will be a powerful indicator to all the dems

...how strong the support for a public option really is...

Call them and let them know your displeasure

[JuniperLea]

9. We need to keep track of them all, no question...

And we should brow beat them at every turn for showing their lily livered ways.

But it should serve to make us fight all the harder to get the others a fair shake!

[saracat]

5. I absolutely hope you are right. I sincerely do.

I also hope it is a genuine Public Option, not one that applies to only 5% of the population.

[ShortnFiery]

6. If this Health Insurance issue goes anything like Foreign Affairs & Military Oversight ones

since Obama took office, WE'RE SCREWED!

[spanone]

7. we can't even count on the democrats to pass the party bills. don't need a civics class for that.

[scheming daemons]

11. 10 out of 13 Democrats voted the right way here... all we need is 50 out of 60 on the final bill

..and we'll get that.

[WyoHiker]

61. more like 8 out of 13. The Schumer amendment was nothing but

political ass covering for the other two dems

[peace frog]

8. Hopefully the public option will survive

but do not disparage the very real, honest feelings of betrayal here. It has nothing to do with the final outcome, and everything to do with our dismay over the fucking DINOs in the Senate. Allow us that much, if you would be so kind. And please do not lecture. I am not an idiot and DID take Civics in middle and high school.

[ShortnFiery]

10. It will be so watered down that it won't have any teeth. IF it survives. eom

[Richardo]

12. There were those who wanted to impeach Nancy Pelosi as well

The ignorance of the workings of the US Government astounds me at times.

:thumbsup:

[elleng]

13. I think 'civics,' 'social studies' is barely taught,

and thats a major part of our ruination.

[ShortnFiery]

19. Our ruination is not lack of civics classes, it's misinformation and propaganda from the M$M.

Combine that with "learned helplessness" from the remaining sane public, you have a plutocracy.

Don't disparage the "less than fully educated" but take the time to keep us apprised.

FOX NATION is our true enemy along with their sycophantic shows on the other cable networks.

[roody]

67. IT IS NOT ON THE STANDARDIZED TESTS!!!

[elleng]

73. It sure as hell SHOULD be,

in the worlds (not)-greatest democracy.

[quiet.american]

15. Thumbs up! nt

[gatorboy]

16. Who was that masked man?

[MoJoWorkin]

17. The Public Option was NEVER going to pass in the Senate Finance Committee

We just need to get the damn thing out of the FInance Committee so we can get on with it. As long as it remains in the Finance Committee, nothing can move forward.

Once it is merged with the HELP Committee bill WITH the PO,hopefully we can get somewhere.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

18. No premature mourning the death of a public option here

It's disheartening that this is what passed the Finance Committee, but not entirely unexpected.

I would, however, like to take a bite out of Baccus', Nelson's, Carper's, Conrad's & Lincoln's hides.

At this point I'm still crossing my fingers on reconciliation.

[ShortnFiery]

21. I've been THERE far too often. Didn't people also say that our legislators would not vote us into

and illegal and immoral invasion of another sovereign country that 85% of world opinion was against?

If we invaded Iraq, what makes you think that "the power elite" who controls our M$M can't cheer lead us out of a Public Option entirely?

Even IF we get that PO, it's going to be so watered down that it won't mean a damn thing to those who will need it the most.

[Barack_America]

20. The threads hating on the Finance Cmte. DINOs are still warranted.

And, in fact, the outrage directed at Baucus, Conrad, Lincoln et al is actually helpful at this point.

[peace frog]

25. Fuck them

and the corporate whores they rode in on.

[Bobbie Jo]

47. +1

[lamp_shade]

23. You are right.

[debbierlus]

26. No, people are pissed because of these traitors. I didn't see anyone proclaiming the option dead

To the contrary, I think a large outcry and gnashing of teeth directed at the traitors may give fair warning to those who might vote against it, in the future.

[Barack_America]

29. DU hysteria level is hovering at orange to orange reddish right now.

There are public option panic threads, but the overwhelming sentiment seems to be outrage.

[cry baby]

28. totally agree, however does this show how these senators will vote on a PO

in a final bill? Is their vote today indicative of how they will vote when the final bill comes to the floor with a PO?

[jgraz]

30. Yes, by all means say NOTHING until the final bill passes.

Cuz it will be much easier to fix things then. :eyes:

[quiet.american]

34. I don't think that's what the OP meant. People are freaking out as though this were a final bill.

I don't see what all the freaking out is about myself -- did we expect anything different to come out of the Senate Finance Committee rife with Blue Dogs and Pugs? Where's the surprise?

Many DU'ers who are renouncing and denouncing seem to be under the impression that what happened today is the last word. Their posts are not taking into consideration that this is simply one bill from one committee, when there are four other bills out there.

Credit where credit is due, though. I'm sure all the "cable news" stations are hyping this to the max, giving the impression that the sky is falling because one Blue Dog & Pug committee simply put out the piece of tripe everyone was expecting them to.

[jgraz]

35. People are making noise about a Senate action that they don't like

Which is more than Our President is going to do.

[quiet.american]

40. The first part I already know, the second part is lol. nt

[jgraz]

54. Still lol'ing?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8676925

[quiet.american]

57. Don't see anything there to change my initial reaction. Obama's position hasn't changed from August.

[Davis_X_Machina]

36. A category 4 freak-out is much more emotionally satisfying, though. n/t

[quiet.american]

41. And more fun to watch! nt :)

[jgraz]

55. Yes, much better to get your smug on while we all get screwed.

[quiet.american]

58. No. nt

[JVS]

65. When a final bill passes, I'm sure the OP will say that it's too late to change things...

and that we must not have been paying attention.

[bvar22]

70. Exactamundo.

+1

NOW is exactly the right time to express our outrage.

[omega minimo]

31. Thanks Granpa for the Strategery lesson.

:hi:

[aintitfunny]

32. Thanks

This is very helpful information to counter the other stuff I keep reading.

[Hekate]

33. KnR.

[ddeclue]

38. The false and foolish optimism of some here shows a lack of REAL WORLD experience in politics.

Baucus' bill is THE bill and there will be no public option - the committee vote is just one more example of it and the Dweasels that voted against the public option amendments today deserve the criticism they are getting here.

Unrecc'd for naivete.

[Libertas1776]

39. I don't even think

that half of the Senate even knows how the Senate works.

[PopSixSquish]

49. LOL - You're Probably Right on That One

[PATRICK]

53. Also the real, contemporary

experience of how public pressure in the USA does and does not work. People did not take to the streets very much(the RW had to be trained and paid to act like loons) even at their own very real peril. Despite the MSM the actual process is morphing toward something like real reform, the conscious path chosen NOT to repeat the dynamics of the Clinton effort. It has nothing to do with life, death, real benefits, justice so much as the almighty pig-headed ugliness of the state of civics in America mirrored in the structural grinding gears of law-making.

Are we ever going to get genuine discussion, leadership, response to truth and the will of the people? Maybe by increments and real health care(even if it unnecessarily leaves people to die in the cracks) we will get there without having to ever realize as a nation what is really going on. Yet this is pretty much what we should have expected we were voting for as the imperfect alternative to the corporatist death march under McCain/Palin. I expected the worst from Bush but the reality always bites harder when it actually unfolds and the bleeding starts. I expected pretty much for Obama to be unjustly and gratuitously limited among his equally imperfect Dems, but seeing things one doesn't like renders philosophical acceptance moot and the bleating starts.

One thing though. The process HAS let the majority sort of lumber ahead of the opposers AND leave THEM at least equally exposed(with a much more enduring negative taint). It seems to actually be working as the slow cooking of the public option gains its always silenced momentum and the loons get identified as such. Many of the options of the health industry are themselves getting wasted, quite the reversal of sending up a WH bill that gets quietly picked to death with a slicker MSM campaign. Why? Because this time the MSM had to deliberately promote obvious lies with no clear target to focus upon- while underneath the single payer option got discussed almost wholly outside their territory.

[Skidmore]

42. I wail and gnash my teeth because, if we don't, politics dictates the

status quo. Civil rights legislation did not occur because people didn't say anything. Women rights were not achieved because we relied upon the pols to use the process. It took push from the outside. So I push. And will continue to push.

[tnlefty]

43. It isn't about civics, but I suppose it is too much to ask

that democrats act like democrats and not the bought and paid for whores some of them reveal themselves to be.

No gnashing of teeth here, nor rending of garments, just disgust with a watchful eye. Perhaps your scold should be directed more to the 'Nay' voters? :shrug:

[GreenPartyVoter]

44. All I know is, I am ticked off with Olympia and will be calling her office tomorrow to let her know.

[Odin2005]

46. I've been saying this for a long time.

The way the MSM idiots makes people jump every time a Blue Dog says something stupid would be hilarious were it not so pathetic. The MSM pushes controversy, don't fall for the crap.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

48. lulz

Did you miss all the threads bitching about Obama because he doesn't just "declare" single payer?

[Kid Dynamite]

51. So Civics class was supposed to teach us to simply assert

things that are very unlikely to be true (say, the Public Option), and use that as a basis for grandstanding?

Further you also ignore the fact that many civic-minded people (ha) are unhappy with the public option as well, seeing as how it is mostly a fraud that diverts attention away from single-payer plans and models

How often do you feel sheepish?

[hfojvt]

52. I think you missed something yourself

as in, a little wailing now might help to influence the reconciliation to go our way.

And also, that winning today's vote would have been better than losing it.

[Le Taz Hot]

59. If you think ANY of this is anything other

than an elaborate big dog-and-pony show for public consumption, it is you who needs the civics lesson.

[WyoHiker]

60. What stopped them from voting in favor of the Public Option Amendment(s)??

Without this wailing and gnashing, what will stop them from doing so again in the full Senate??

Even with the wailing and gnashing, you think they'll change?

I'm sorry, but the noise here IS very warranted. We put them there, and we can take em out. They need to understand this before the bill goes to the Senate Floor.

I, for one, am willing and able to contribute to progressive candidates even if it means temporarily handing those seats back to the Republicans while those Democratic constituencies pull their heads out of their collective asses. I will hold back until the final senate votes are cast, but not a millisecond longer.

The era of go-along-to-get-long is dead. Bubba has retired. (Good Riddance!)

"You dance with the one that brought ya!"

[HughMoran]

62. Good reminder, thouhgh I still think every DUer should email the "bad" Senators

Irrespective of whether we get a bill out of Finance that has a PO, these Dems should be ashamed of not supporting what most people (and especially Dems) want. :mad:

[Kablooie]

63. I really HOPE I will feel sheepish and embarrassed. That would delight me!

[eridani]

64. If it is delayed until 2013, itis utterly useless n/t

[Douglas Carpenter]

66. I just now realized that some people do indeed misunderstand the procedure

and assumed that this meant that the public option has been voted down and is now finished.

I thank you for pointing out that though the news is not good news - the fight for a public option is actually just now starting.

[bvar22]

72. I am outraged that a weak Public Option....

...couldn't pass (or even come close) on a committee with a "Democratic" Majority.
That is worthy of notice,
and worthy of outrage.
The Corporate Sellouts (DLC) must be made to feel the immediate backlash.


The "Democratic" Party MUST be put on notice.
We ARE watching and taking names....even the Committee votes.
To oil the waters (the OP) and let this slip by is exactly the WRONG thing to do.




"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone

[sofa king]

68. Thank you, fellow Rush fan!

And while it's probably mentioned somewhere upstream, I'll point out again that the Republicans set a dangerous precedent (for them) during the budget reconciliations of 2003-2005. During those proceedings, Democrats were literally locked out of the conference committee meetings, and there was no telling what was to be added and what was to be taken away in those smoke-filled rooms.

I think we could, if necessary, do the same thing this fall or next spring.

[dem mba]

69. SERENITY NOW!

thanks for posting.

[Orsino]

71. No. Don't wait for the final bill.

Lobby to make the final bill the best it can be.

[TheKentuckian]

74. Raising seven different kinds of hell is not just fine but GOOD

but there is a despair level that is over the top that I sense from some. Get fired up rather than falling down. In fact we must continue to fight tooth and nail even if this goes down or something awful passes. Medicare didn't get done on a single attempt and people need to be ready to spring off the mat and keep pushing if we fail this time. Reform can't be allowed to go on the shelf for another 15 years this time if we come up short like last time.

I do think we'll be able to scrap out a decent skeleton to build off of here this trip but its not going to be over one way or the other and we must be relentless on this like in the 60's.