Cheerleaders’ religious signs draw fire

[proud2BlibKansan]

Community members are rallying around Lakeview-Fort Oglethorpe High School cheerleaders after they were banned from displaying signs with Bible verses urging fans and players to “commit to the Lord” and “take courage and do it.”

The banners — the paper ones that football players crash through at the beginning of games — have been common sights in the school’s football stadium since 2003, local officials say.

“The cheerleaders are not trying to push a religious cause, to shove religion down someone’s throat,” said local youth minister Brad Scott, who was LFO High’s class president in 2004. “The cheerleaders are just using Scripture to show motivation and inspiration to the players and the fans.”

Catoosa County Schools spokeswoman Marissa Brower said a Fort Oglethorpe resident lodged a verbal complaint to Superintendent Denia Reese last week, saying that the display of a Bible verse on the football field is a violation of federal law.

more . . . http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2009/sep/29/cheerleaders-religious-signs-draw-fire/

[donco6]

1. Gag me.

Because I'm going to say something really bad.

[David__77]

2. Abolish the whole thing.

What's the point in having the public school sponsor these things? If so, we certainly don't need "cheer."

[XemaSab]

3. 1 Corinthians 11

Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6 For if a woman will not be covered, then let her be shorn! But since it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. 7 For indeed a man ought not to cover his head, being the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9 Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 For this reason the woman should have authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 In any case, woman is not independent of man, nor man of woman, in the Lord; 12 for as woman is from man, so man is now through woman. And all things are from God. 13 Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him, 15 but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering. 16 But if anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, nor do the churches of God.

I hope the cheerleaders were covered when they made their pronouncement.

[notadmblnd]

37. I never liked Paul.

[JoDog]

54. There's a pic at the link

I see a lot of seductive, flowing hair. And those skirts are a little north of modest.

[imdjh]

4. There is something wrong with educated young people who don't reject their parents' religion.

[nosmokes]

15. RAmen! Testify!

[demwing]

26. Bullshit

You must realize that there are Democrats on this board who are well educated, and who follow the faith of their parents. Your comment is offensive to those who do not "reject their parents' religion."

There is nothing wrong with the educated Democrats of faith, and I'm tired of the insults.

That being said, it infuriates me that schools allow and often encourage this sort of proselytizing.

[imdjh]

29. As a function of youth, one should reject the parent's beliefs.

What you do later in life is another discussion.

[onenote]

71. so if you're parent's are liberal christians or unitarians

you think the kids are flawed if they don't become bible thumping fundies?

[imdjh]

74. That was my mother's strategy in taking us to (Episcopal) church every Sunday.

She figured that when we rebelled we would stop going to church, as opposed to some of our classmates who disappeared and became Hare Krishnas, Moonies, Jesus Freaks, or orthodox Jews.

[Bill McBlueState]

93. wow, horrible logic

I don't completely agree with imdjh, but to one who rejects liberal Christianity or Unitarianism, there are countless alternatives to becoming a fundamentalist.

You knew that, right?

[onenote]

113. not perfect logic, but hardly "horrible"

I could and should have been more precise. If the notion is that children should "reject" their parents beliefs, which of the alternatives to liberal christianity is more of a rejection of those beliefs than going fundie? While becoming an atheist can be chararcterized as a rejection of liberal christianity (as could adopting any other religious affiliation), but only a rejection of the liberal concepts of one's parents faith strikes me as a true rejection of their beliefs.

[kwassa]

116. well, my parents took me to the Unitarian church, and now I am Episcopalian.

[Toasterlad]

63. Belief In Organized Religion Is Nothing More Than Intellectual Laziness Compounded By Fear of Death

Anyone with a modicum of cognitive reasoning ability would quickly dismiss every single major religion as quackery. The myths that these religions are based on are children's stories that wouldn't pass a 3rd grader's smell test. The only reason people hang on to organized religion is because they get some kind of vague comfort from the idea that there's someone "on high" looking out for them, and that they might actaully somehow continue to exist after they die. Religion is a childish exercise in keeping the boogeyman at bay.

I lose respect for every person I meet if I find out they're even remotely religious, and I lose tons MORE respect if I find out that they really believe all the shit in the bible or koran or what have you.

[leftynyc]

65. So the President will have to

live without your respect. So will I. Good thing I doubt either of us gives a shit.

[Toasterlad]

66. I Wouldn't Expect You To

And the anti-gay President never HAD my respect, religion or not. But you're very much correct in that he doesn't give a shit.

[Bill McBlueState]

95. Oh, I respect the President

But I respect him in spite of his religious beliefs, not because of them. There's more to a man than the number of gods he believes in.

[onenote]

73. So you think Dr. Martin Luther King lacked even a modicum of cognitive reasoning ability

And that the many gay and lesbian ministers that have been ordained in recent years are not deserving of your respect.

Y'know, that says a lot more about you than the people you don't respect.

[Toasterlad]

79. You're Free To Draw Your Own Conclusions, As Am I

I suspect you care as little about my opinion of you as I do of your opinion of me.

As for Dr. King, he has my respect - and admiration - for his amazing contributions to civil liberties in this country, not one of which needed a religious motivation or foundation.

[demwing]

83. You're obviously free to you own opinion

but why insult fellow DUers in your expression of such?

I will never try to recruit, or insult you for your beliefs. Why must you?

[Toasterlad]

92. "I will never try to recruit, or insult you for your beliefs."

Sadly, the same cannot be said for many of your religious brethren. Christianity has waged an ongoing war on gay people for years. Insults are the least I have to endure from christians. I have no compunctions about giving as good as I get.

I'm sure that you consider yourself a "good" christian, and that you hold no animosity for gay people. However, as a member of the faith, you are promoting the "brand name", so to speak, and are guitly by association. Only if your particular church has publically stated that discrimination against homosexuals is wrong, only if they embrace gay people as members of their congregation and clergy, and denounce other "christians" who publically and privately advance an anti-gay agenda, are they free of this guilt.

In any case, it's not my intention to insult any particular DUer, but merely to express my opinion on organized religion.

[demwing]

99. Actually, I'm not Christian at all

and your comments about why I should or should not carry any guilt are built on that false assumption.

Maybe you should avoid assuming things about people you don't know, and give DUers a token of your respect. The very fact that we are here should allow you at least that magnanimity.

[Toasterlad]

103. My Assumption Was a Safe One Considering the Twisting of Your Panties.

Please don't play the "all DUers are your allies by default" card. I've seen more than enough homophobia on here to quickly dispel that myth.

I generally give people as much respect as I get. However, if you're expecting respect from everyone you meet on a message board, I suggest that you're not ready to use the internet, and should put it away for a few years.

[demwing]

117. You give as good as you get?

I've been nothing but polite to you, and you fail even that most simple of tests.

[Toasterlad]

118. This IS Me Being Polite.

If you think I'm being harsh, again...back away from the internets.

[demwing]

119. Hey , it was your claim that your "give" = your "get". If this is you being polite

then it is you that should spend some time away from the Internet, so that you can see how your behavior affects others, rather than sitting behind a keyboard and typing from within a bubble, developing callouses on more than just your fingertips.

[Toasterlad]

125. Do You Expect People On the Internet to Treat You the Same Way They Would In a Face-to-Face?

You're not ready, young Padawan.

[demwing]

129. Yes, I expect people to be polite

and I have a heightened expectation of those smart enough to maintain memberships at DU. I suppose I will have to settle for less than I expect, but I believe that alternative is superior to giving up on people in general.

So, your reasoning behind rudeness is that "It's the Internet"? That's it? You take no responsibility at all?

Fine. But why not just embrace it, own it, and sleep there? It's honest, if nothing else, and then you don't have to pretend that you give as well as you get, because that old story isn't believable.

[onenote]

89. so apparently you didn't really mean what you wrote or you suddenly "got religion"

and changed your mind.

Your words: "Anyone with a modicum of cognitive reasoning ability would quickly dismiss every single major religion as quackery...
I lose respect for every person I meet if I find out they're even remotely religious...."

So is the only reason you respect Dr. King that you never actually met him or that you don't think he was remotely religious?

[Toasterlad]

91. What I Should Have Said Was, "COULD quickly dismiss"

Obviously, there are intelligent people that still claim to be religious. This does not change my belief that religion is intellectually lazy.

Also, I didn't say I lose ALL respect for religious people. I just have LESS respect for them than I otherwise would have. I have a friend who's a born-again chrisitan. I respect him, although not as much as I did before he "got Jesus".

I have more than enough respect for Dr. King's accomplishments that I am able to overlook his religious beliefs.

[imdjh]

131. I have a friend who believes in full-moon phenomena. No idea if MLK actually believed in God.

No, I don't have a lot of respect for him in that area of his beliefs. I have found research for him that the full moon phenomena are completely disproved, but he refuses to let go of it. Honestly, I don't have a lot of respect for him intellectually, but he has a remarkable understanding of human nature.

I have no idea if MLK's religious beliefs were sincere, or a vehicle for his philosophy and politics. Either way, a person can have what I call a "disconnect" and not be a complete moron, he can even excel in all other areas. It's a phenomenon we have all encountered- otherwise brilliant people who are obtuse or inept in some area of life.

[onenote]

70. possibly the dumbest thing to appear on DU in some time

[The Straight Story]

5. If I had seen those signs, I would have screamed and ran and hid in my house

I cannot stand people having views/ideas/religions other than my own.

Scares the shit out of me. I hope we can work together to hide such things from my view, because I am too damned weak to handle them....


Yeah, there might be some sarcasm there, but sadly there are some for whom it is true.

[mamalone]

7. If I could recommend a reply...

I'd rec this one. :-)

[wtmusic]

11. If I had missed the point as completely as you did

I'd do the same.

“If it’s offensive to anyone, let them go watch another football game,” he (the coach) said. “Nobody’s forced to come there and nobody’s forced to read the signs."

Them Jews and Muslims can jes' look the other way!!

[imdjh]

12. If that was all there was to it, I'd be inclined to agree. But it isn't.

This is evangelism combined with peer pressure combined with community pressure- and it's organized. These girls didn't wake up one morning and decide to do this.


Notice that they rallied at Chik Fil A , fundamentalist fast food.

Notice that the coach is in on this, as is the Fellowship OF Christian Athletes, and if you don't think that's adult sponsored peer pressure then you need to look it up.

[NoSheep]

48. Would that make them:

astro-christo-turf-crawling-fascists? I think yes.

[foxfeet]

13. Is it a Christian private school? If so, no problem.

If it is a public school, they've got no business endorsing any specific religion, mine included.

[Flaneur]

16. No, it's not a private school.

[imdjh]

20. As far as I can tell, it's Catoosa County school. A county that is whiter than FORSYTHE county.

Big flashing red flag there. You might remember Forsythe County, which was featured on the Oprah Winfrey show back in the late 80's because it had no black people at all. Without a deliberate effort to get rid of them, a county with no black people in the South would not be a naturally occurring thing. It's not even compatible with Jim Crow times, because black people are supposed to work for white people. Who's going to do the scut work?

Forsythe County is no only 90% white, and Catoosa is GET THIS 95% white. For comparison, all of Georgia is only 65% white, and even economically exclusive areas (not gated communities) would have more than 5% nonwhites.

[imdjh]

21. As far as I can tell, it's Catoosa County school. A county that is whiter than FORSYTHE county.

Big flashing red flag there. You might remember Forsythe County, which was featured on the Oprah Winfrey show back in the late 80's because it had no black people at all. Without a deliberate effort to get rid of them, a county with no black people in the South would not be a naturally occurring thing. It's not even compatible with Jim Crow times, because black people are supposed to work for white people. Who's going to do the scut work?

Forsythe County is no only 90% white, and Catoosa is GET THIS 95% white. For comparison, all of Georgia is only 65% white, and even economically exclusive areas (not gated communities) would have more than 5% nonwhites.

[Hepburn]

33. +1...n/t

[kath]

24. Give me a fucking break. Do you have NO comprehension of the 1st amendment???

What the cheerleaders did is in NO way constitutional in a public school-sponsored event.

[Fumesucker]

59. If there *were* such a person in the USA. they would never come out of their home..

At least not if they weren't "Christian"..

[Toasterlad]

64. No One Is Mentally Weaker Than a Christian

Not being able to get through the day without believing in a micro-managing sky father who's sternly watching everything you do and who'll condemn you to an eternity - an eternity! - of suffering if you break any of his many laws - the only useful of which are common sense anyway and require no religious backing - is a terribly lazy and ignorant way to live your life.

It's not weakness to not want to be exposed to children's stories every time you turn around. It gets really annoying after awhile to see grown people and their cluess spawn acting so stupid.

[Bill McBlueState]

96. Fortunately,

the Lemon test does not contain an item that says, "The government's action must upset The Straight Story."

[RagAss]

6. so..what else do these people have?....TV and the man with the beard in the sky !

[Nikki Stone1]

8. Sexing themselves up for the Lord...

I love it. LOL!!!!!!!!

[Solly Mack]

9. Jesus, Jesus, he's our man. If he can't do it Allah can!

Allah, Allah, he's our man. If he can't do it Yahweh can! Yahweh, Yahweh, he's our man. If he can't do it, Moroni can. Moroni, Moroni, he's our man. If he can't do it Vishnu can! Vishnu, Vishnu, he's our man. If he can't do it - we're fucked. If a god with 4 arms can't get and hold the ball....

[tammywammy]

10. LOL! n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. LOL!!

:rofl:

[NoSheep]

49. Betelgeuse! Betelgeuse! Betelgeuse!

[Le Taz Hot]

57. ROFLMAO!!!!!!

Best DU post of the week! I'm still laughing!

[BolivarianHero]

75. I agree...

It's the best one I heard since that one mocking teabaggers that featured such hilarity about "MUSLIN NATZY SOCIALESTS forcing us to WORSHIP TEH KORESH!!1!!1!1!!!!!!!!11!11!"

[Soylent Brice]

61. bwahahahahaaa!!!!!

:rofl:

[Starry Messenger]

84. *weeps*

:rofl:

[redqueen]

127. *rofflemayo*

[saltpoint]

14. In Jesus' Name. SMEAR the Panthers!

[Swamp Rat]

17. Jesus was a football player?

[Solly Mack]

25. You betcha! He holds the record for saves.

:P

(I slay me)

[Swamp Rat]

30. LOL!

:hi:

[earth mom]

32. ROFLMAO!

:rofl:

[Solly Mack]

36. hehehehe

:thumbsup:

[Le Taz Hot]

72. OH, goddess, SM,

you're on a roll! :rofl:

[Solly Mack]

114. Holy Roller

:hi:

:D

Holy Roller rule (in football)
http://forum.signonsandiego.com/showthread.php?p=3776238

It's the gift that keeps on giving (the OP article...not me)


lololololol

[demwing]

87. And Conversions

and can pull off a pretty good Hail Mary play in the final days...

[Solly Mack]

115. Heh!!

lolol

[scheming daemons]

120. That's hockey...... "Jesus saves... and Crosby scores on the rebound!"

[Solly Mack]

124. Think soccer - and about how soccer is football in many, many (many) parts of the world.

And how in soccerfootball, there are - indeed - saves.

and..yes...there are also saves in hockey.

Now think cross-cultural play on words and terms.

[Sinistrous]

45. No, but he signals a lot of touchdowns...

See?

[JNelson6563]

18. God, save me from your people.

For they are lunatics.

Julie

[HughMoran]

19. I don't want to see such jibberish at any public event

What would possess them to think that others wanted to be "indoctrinated" (to use the phrase of the day) to their particular religion or favorite phrase from such. Here's a clue - I don't give a flying fuck! ...keep your religion to yourself, thank you very much.

[Kievan Rus]

22. They've got no business doing this in a PUBLIC school

If you want to spread your religion in school, send your children to a private school.

However, my tax dollars shouldn't be used to argue for--or against--ANY religion.

[imdjh]

23. SHOCKER! This is the same county that tried to keep the lesbians from going to the prom.

http://www.topix.com/forum/county/catoosa-ga/T7CKUSKN9NA0P2DPP

[BolivarianHero]

80. OMG ITZ TEH j00z1!!!!!1!1!!!!!1

"There's only one group of Religious people that want to silence Christianity. Can you guess? It's not Moslems! It's not Buddism! It's not Hinduism! This one starts with a T & J! This is the real enemy of Christianity! Thanks"

[imdjh]

105. Who is that you're doing there?

[BolivarianHero]

111. One of the people responding to the article....

These people are psycho

[ChoppinBroccoli]

27. OK, Brad Scott, I Call You Out

I'm going to print up a banner with inspirational and motivational scriptures that I took from the Koran. Let's see if class president Brad has any problem with THAT one. If he does, not only is he a hypocrite, he's admitting that he's using the school's forum to push one religion over another, which is a violation of the Constitution.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. I am SO DAMN GLAD I don't have kids

there is this wall between separation of church and state... or at least there used to be.

If I used sayings from the Quoran, or the Vita, you'd hear these people howling...

Oh hell, if I used a little Isaiah or Daniel they'd be howling.

[surrealAmerican]

60. Even if you DID have kids ...

... you would probably choose not to live in a fundie town like that one. Public schools in more rational areas don't do things like this.

[earth mom]

31. I hope every single one of those fundies is kicked off the cheerleading team. nt

[Lisa0825]

34. If there is a God, I would wager She doesnt give a shit about football. nt

[scheming daemons]

122. Bullshit.... she loves the Steelers....

It's obvious...

[babylonsister]

35. Props to that Fort Oglethorpe resident! nt

[cynatnite]

38. Nothing says Jesus luvs you more than cheerleaders in skimpy uniforms displaying bible verses. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. LOL!!

[BlooInBloo]

50. "displaying bible verses" - New euphemism of the day?

:P

[demwing]

85. Or hormonal teenage boys shredding oversized bible verses .

So odd...

[astral]

40. It harms no one.

Separation of church and state does not ban a human being from expressing anything of a religious nature or any law that says one must keep one's religion to one's self, anymore than one must keep one's gender preference to one's self.

Why do people get all rabid about this when it's YOUNG KIDS just BEING THEMSELVES, and expressing anything of a religious nature is as offensive to you people as if they squatted down and took a poop right in your path. It's very strange to me to see. It's like you're all mind-controlled to react this way about anything religious.

I think you are. You don't know it, but you are.

[cynatnite]

41. It is a violation of federal law. Period. n/t

[ChoppinBroccoli]

44. Tell That To The Supreme Court

The Supreme Court has consistently ruled, going way back to when they actually were a non-partisan body, that there is a very good reason for a wall of separation between church and state, and the old "it's not hurting anybody" defense is NOT valid. These sorts of things hurt people in far-reaching ways you could never even anticipate. And the people that are being hurt are OUR CHILDREN.

Take, for example, the case where a school had a voluntary period where students could pray in class. It wasn't mandatory, and the children who didn't want to pray were allowed to just lay their heads down on their desks and not participate. Certainly YOU might say, "it doesn't hurt anybody, so who cares?", right? The Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional. Wanna know why? Because we live in a multi-cultural society, and the children who WEREN'T Christians not only felt like they were being singled out, ostracized, or that they just "didn't fit in" (which is a fate worse than death at that age), but the other children were able to look around and SEE who wasn't participating, and would then take the actions that ALL school-age children take when they see someone who isn't conforming.

So, Mr./Ms. It's-Not-Hurting-Anyone, let me turn this around on you. Would your reaction be the same if the cheerleaders were holding up banners containing passages from the Satanic Bible during school football games? Or the Koran? Or from L. Ron Hubbard's "Dianetics" (the Scientologists' Bible)? Why has your answer all of a sudden changed? It's not hurting anyone, right?

Too many people spend too much time in the majority and don't understand what it's like to be in the minority of anything, and they can't/won't understand until you force them into just such a situation. Imagine YOUR CHILD came home from school every day in tears because all the other kids were picking on him/her for being whatever religion you are and not participating in the "correct" (aka school-sanctioned) religious practices. How about if your child came home scared to death because his/her teacher told him/her that he/she was going to be spending eternity in a pit of fire just because he practiced the "wrong" religion, and he spent the entire next week not getting any sleep because he was having nightmares about it (and then his schoolwork started to suffer as well--now your child isn't getting precisely what you're sending him school to get--an EDUCATION--simply because religious nuts think forcing their beliefs down the throats of children "doesn't hurt anyone"). Bet you'd be more than just a little bit hot under the collar.

[Ferretherder]

52. Bravo!

...you are my new 'Hero for the Day!'

Well said, my friend.

[msanthrope]

98. Welcome to DU, Choppin! Please stay. n/t

[DaveinJapan]

53. What if the kids happened to be fond of the Church of Satan?

If they displayed their banners praising the Devil, would you defend them just as vehemently?

If not, why not?

It harms no one, after all. Just young kids being themselves, right?



EDIT: sorry ChoppinBroccoli (can I call you CB?), I'd not read your comment before posting and didn't realize that you'd already brought up the Prince of Lies argument. My bad. :evilfrown:

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

58. Gotta disagree with you

I'm in the pew most every Sunday, and this activity clearly breaches the wall between Church and State. It's a government sponsored activity, and they have no business proselityzing on a Friday night (or a Saturday afternoon or whenever).

[Hepburn]

81. It violates the U.S. Const ~~ so it harms all of us. n/t

[Arugula Latte]

108. ChoppinBroccoli just schooled you perfectly.

Wake up. Imposing religion in public schools IS harmful.

[Crosseyed Jesus]

42. Sand Script

It is so anti-progressive for young people in the 21-century adhering to words written by sand ingested men and women who would have marveled at a wheel barrel as a technological achievement.
But then again there was a Shakespeare who was a much better writer then all of them. And more original at that!

[ipaint]

43. That wasn't a sign, it's the size of a billboard.

They'll push and push and push with their proselytizing until someone pushes back. Best to deal with the rudeness early on.

[Rex]

47. They idolize the pros that always 'thank God' for this and that.

and never thank all the tough years and work they put into making just one or two good plays a game. Not surprised.

[saracat]

51. Read the comments. They will make you barf. Stupid is as stupid does.

[JoDog]

55. Isn't the very fact

that they are creating these banners to be destroyed a little offensive to Christianity? It would be in Judaism. Putting Scripture on pieces of paper designed to be destroyed would be considered incredibly disrespectful in my faith--a big no-no.

And if those cheerleaders want to be good, Christian girls, well, they better lengthen those skirts and eliminate all dance routines. Just sayin'

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

56. Don't listen to JoDog, girls....

Jesus WANTS you to dress in short skirts and gyrate like a pack of harlots.

Really. Jesus and I just talked yesterday and he thinks you're smokin'

[marshall]

62. As long as the teacher/sponsor/coach doesn't orchestrate it, is it improper?

Another school might have a banner urging students to stick pins in voodoo dolls, or schedule games around astrological allignment, etc.

[ThatsMyBarack]

67. What are the JEWS supposed to do....

when Christian bible verses are shoved in their face like this? :shrug:

I've been wondering about this for a while...

[Toasterlad]

68. There Are No Jews In Tennessee, So It's Not a Problem.

[Kalyke]

126. My husband's Jewish and we live in Tennessee.

You know my husband - the very happy boy who was wonderfully pleased that you called me a prude yesterday.

He got to, again, experience, that I am, indeed, NOT a prude.

:P

[Toasterlad]

128. I Started Out Annoyed With You When I First Encountered You Yesterday

and now I am delighted by you. If nothing else, I admire your spunk. I hereby retract my prude comment.

:thumbsup:

And yes, I'm sure there are, in fact, many Jewish people in Tennessee. I was actually being sarcastic, as I'm sure those oh-so-well-meaning young christian cheerleaders couldn't even conceive of anyone not being exactly like them.

[KamaAina]

132. So, for that matter, is Steve Cohen (D-TN09)

:P

[onenote]

76. when i was a kid, I ignored them

My grounding in my own faith was strong enough that a sign, or a christmas carol sung at a holiday concert was going to cause me to suddenly change my religion

that said, i don't think the signs were appropriate. I also don't agree with those advocating severe punishment for the students who made the signs

[treestar]

69. What kind of an idiot must a person be?

To really think Jesus gives a shit about high school football games?

[BolivarianHero]

77. Look at the fucking morans responding to the initial link...

Chattanooga's a fucking joke...The closest thing to an intellectual to have ever come out of that shithole is pro-wrestler Jerry Lawler.

[Arugula Latte]

109. It does have a choo choo, though.

So there's that.

;)

[astral]

78. These were freaking KIDS, what do you think they were

supposed to know about the "LAW" against making a sign saying 'commit to the Lord?'

The separation between church and state is not about this sort of thing, is all I'm saying. The ban on any religious expression is weird and way 'beyond the pale,' as they say.

The only logical thing to do would be to inform all students of any age, because you know kindy-gartners could be guilty of this same sort of offense, not being very schooled in "The Law" yet, that it is against the law to expose anybody around you, especially your helpless and vulnerable fellow-students, to anything to do with religion. Do not speak of it anymore than you would saw "FUCK" in front of them.

Oh, I think saying FUCK is considered a much lessor offense -- hey, all the kids get to have music full of foul language, that's not harming anyone.

What other kinds of human expression do we need to PROTECT your children from, besides religious expression? Is there anything else out there that qualifies as taboo, anything at all?

Can kids wear cross necklaces to school? (I honestly don't know the answer to that, I just want to know how deep is the hole we have fallen into.)

Would I condone signs to workship satan on that ballfield? Well, now, it would make for an interesting thread, which would start out with, 'how the heck did THOSE kinds of girls make it onto the cheerleading team?" Kids feel good about believing in God. It's not a bad thing. So what if not ALL kids believe in God? Seems to me the Christian kids are the ones in the minority, the ones to feel 'singled out,' not the atheists (or kids who are OTC ("Other Than Christian").

On "voluntary moment of prayer" -- is the concept of being quiet and meditative HARMFUL to anyone who does not practice prayer? Have we come to this? There is no inner soul to feel inside of you if you are not praying to an outer God? That whole dimension of spirituality has to be wiped clean from the life experience of all kids in school?

The line of separation between Church and State is the GOVERNMENT is not to mess with people's religious beliefs --- OR LACK OF RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. Everyone is to be treated the same whether they're black or white or yellow or red or blue or Christian or Jewish or Satanic (LOL!) or GAY, yes, I add that to the comparison because people can not claim their kids are harmed by being exposed to the concept of GAY, yet they are all Fur-a-Flying if their kids are exposed to the concept of GOD -- hell, the very WORD "God" is taboo, look at the crap going on about saying the Pledge of Allegiance.

I do not know if saying the Pledge of Allegiance will mar students' psyches as they grow up, however, my experience was we were saying it every single morning in school from 2nd grade on (I believe it was not done in 1st grade) and we were not even bothered with being told what "Pledge" or "Allegiance" means, or, of course, the word "Republic." And I remember saying "Under God," and kind of thought we were making a rememberance to God too, although I did not know whether or not I believed in God as a kid and it was no big deal to my parents whether I did or not.

NO BIG DEAL. Okay, I shall be slammed, hung on the cross now (LOL!) and put on IGNORE by masses of people here but I really believe my opinion matters. If I am the only one who feels this way I will probably have to just dry up and blow away for you all.

Okay, that was a good rant, thanks!

[Toasterlad]

82. How Silly.

No one's telling that jackass Tim Tebow that he can't wear his Phill 3:14 faceblack on game day. No one's denying anyone INDIVIDUAL expression. The fact is, this was a public school, and these signs were endorsed BY THE SCHOOL.

I notice you didn't address the excellent point that others have brought up in this thread: what if the quotation was from the torah, or the koran, or the satanic bible? Would you be so tolerant then?

"people can not claim their kids are harmed by being exposed to the concept of GAY" - this makes me really wonder if you have absolutely ANY idea of what's going on in the world, particularly in backassward rural America.

[astral]

88. I would feel the same about any other kind of sign

although I think the satanic thing goes over the edge as people aren't very tolerant in general about having that in their face and I would be more surprised than offended by it.

My point in mentioning the subject of being gay was the fact that schools are introducing literature to kindergarten and primary aged children about being gay and alternative families, and I do not think delving into sexual matters like that is appropriate for that age group. I find it shocking.

I find it all very shocking, although I've seen it going on far to long to remain "shocked," that anything to do with the religious dimension of people's lives is shut out as being rotten and dirty, while kids ARE exposed to the concept of witchcraft, magic, probably Satanism in disguise, sexual preferences, and of course movies all over showing people in 'the act' as if it's no big deal.

I grew up in the 60's where none of that stuff was out there being paraded to kids for their entertainment, where if your parents (or somebody) didn't tell you the "Facts of Life," you didn't learn it from the TV set, where kids wouldn't dream of dressing like sluts and freaks to attend school, and the music they listened to was stuff you could actually sing along with.

We had one hour recess, segregated playgrounds (male from female, that is, but it came natural to us not something we were told to do) and we didn't have bullies being able to torment fellow students with nobody doing anything about it.

I have to compare what I see as "The Reality" now with what used to be, and sure it wasn't all good, we had those racist loony toons cartoons that were considered normal (I guess!) and there was a big deal made about interracial marriages and such, so no, I'm not saying things need to go back to the way they were.

The culture we live in and what we all agree / disagree on as being okay for our kids to grow up in is being manipulated by the media and all the crud that is surrounding us is not okay and we do not have to pretend it is.

I see harm in shielding kids from the concept of religion in the effort to let them 'make up their own mind.' They need to grow up with the idea that there are various faiths and learn for themselves what to follow, not to follow, or study or think about. It was always a part of my reality although I was not religious nor were my parents.

Complete and total intolerance is what I see here, something quite different from genuine "fear" that your children may be "harmed" by being exposed to religious concepts.

[Toasterlad]

97. "sexual matters"

I see you're one of those people who hears "gay" and automatically thinks "butt sex", and therefore would like to keep kindergardeners ignorant of the fact that a man might fall in love with a man in the same way that a man might fall in love with a woman. Your claim that prohibiting public schools from promoting christianity is "complete and total intolerance" is laughable as a result.

I don't believe I have anything more to say to you.

[ieoeja]

104. Also a very good point.

Does astral seriously believe they are teaching children about gay sex? When they portray a male/female married couple, do they show pictures of daddy putting his cock in mommy's pussy?

[ieoeja]

101. My father was bullied and abused. By the TEACHERS.

Because he was Roman Catholic.

The vast majority of complaints filed against church/state violations are filed by people of a minority religion. Roman Catholics lead the list as they are the largest minority religion in the bible belt.

Consider also the fact the great frequency with which these complaints occur in homogeneous areas. Do they have a holiday tree and holiday party at my son's public school in big, bad liberal Chicago? No. They have a Christmas tree and a Christmas party at which they give out Christmas toys.

You know why nobody complains? Nobody gets treated like shit for not being Christian. The school is so diverse there is hardly any majority anything.

I give you 9-1 odds that the person who filed the complaint in the case being presented in the OP has been the target of repeated abuse in his/her community because of his/her religious beliefs.

So on behalf of the people who really do suffer abuse at the hands of the intolerant, and whom you have the horrible indecency to label intolerant for trying to fight that intolerance:

Fuck You!

[Arugula Latte]

110. I am a straight woman, and I have to say, your anti-gay slurs are DISGUSTING.

You should be ashamed of your bigotry.

"Gay" is not a "preference" -- It's what someone IS! It's like being born a woman a man or white or black. (By the way, when did you make those choices for yourself, or, for that matter, the choice to be straight?)

Why don't you educate yourself a bit? Being religious isn't an excuse to be a bigot.

[Sapphocrat]

121. "ALTERNATIVE FAMILIES"?

ALTERNATIVE? Alternative to what? Your idea of "normal"?

And what is this bullshit about teaching "sexual matters" in school? What are you, fresh off the Yes on 8 campaign? Or did you just beam into this century from 1966? Do you use words like "inverts," too?

Have you ever even met a gay person? Seen one? Or do they not exist on your planet?

Bloody hell. I can't remember the last time I saw so much bigoted crap piled so high in a single post.

P.S. You're completely off the hook about exposure to religion harming no one. Christianity and Mormonism alone have fucked gay Americans over for life.

[NMMNG]

130. Riiiight

So a book that mentions "some families have two mommies or two daddies" is a book that, in your opinion, "delves into sexual matters". So how is it that the classic fairy tales (Snow White, Cinderella) in which a princess falls in love with and "lives happily ever after with" (ostensibly marries) a prince, don't delve into sexual matters? Why is it people always presume sex whenever LGBT people are mentioned? Are their minds that much in the gutter?


You find it "shocking" that kids would be exposed to the reality of families that are led by same-sex parents? (You're obviously ignoring the fact that some of those students are LGBT.) I find it shocking how many people think that ignoring and demonizing a whole segment of the population is beneficial to anyone.

[Orsino]

86. Missing from your excellent rant is an excuse...

...for the teachers, administrators, parents and board who let this go on, whose presumed familiarity with the law led them only to conceal the practice by suppressing the banners around game time.

[astral]

90. Excuse? You are missing my point.

My point is that it was the kids themselves who chose to put up the sign, and just because they happened to be on school grounds during a school-sponsored event is not something the school administrators "sponsored" or put on.


Check this out, this makes my point, from the article:

"Following each game there is a player-led prayer, he said, but under their interpretation of the law, the coaches cannot lead a prayer."

Isn't this the same thing? The kids were not BANNED from having a player-led prayer! Should they have been?


I am sure the vote here will be "yay."

[Orsino]

107. I'm making my own point.

The teachers, administrators, board and parents who permit this are endorsing it.

[Bill McBlueState]

100. your comparison of religious expression to gay issues is particularly offensive

Gay people exist. The evidence that any gods exist is sketchy at best.

[Taverner]

94. I'm Pro-Cheerleader as they come, but this one takes the cake

No bible verses at school events

NONE

No Koran, No Torah, No Talmuud, No Vedas....

Silly rabbit, school is where you are supposed to unlearn all those dangerous fantasies

[scheming daemons]

123. You're a pro cheerleader?

how much does it pay?

:-)

[and-justice-for-all]

102. "“The cheerleaders are not trying to push a religious cause..." LIE..nt

[guitar man]

106. Jesus wept nt

[markbark]

112. Just tell them

to go look up Matthew, Chapter 6, verses 1 through 8 and then quietly walk away.

[KamaAina]

133. Gimme a J! J!

Gimme an E! E!
Gimme an S! S!
Gimme a U! U!
Gimme an S! S!
What's that spell?

Ignornace! Bigotry! Rah! Rah! Rah! :eyes: