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URGENT!! Budget Cut Bloodbath at San Diego State Music Department--PLEASE HELP!!

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 07:01 AM
Original message
URGENT!! Budget Cut Bloodbath at San Diego State Music Department--PLEASE HELP!!
Edited on Thu Oct-15-09 07:43 AM by Nikki Stone1
A dear friend of mine from San Diego is involved with the music department at San Diego State. Most of you know that California is going through its worst budget crisis in years. The Cal State system is being put through terrible cuts, and the arts are taking the brunt. The current Chancellor, a physical education major, doesn't understand why the arts are important at a university. My friend's email, below, was a call to action for me and I am asking for your help as well. Please take a few minutes to cut and paste and send.





MOST OF THE PERFORMANCE FACULTY TO BE CUT!


Dear friends and fellow alumni,

I was just informed that CSU Chancellor Charles B. Reid wants budget cuts of over a quarter of a million dollars in San Diego State's Music Department. This amount represents all of the part time budget and most of the performance faculty.

Music Chair, Donna Conaty, has been ordered by Chancellor Reid to let the part-time faculty go! There has even been talk of abolishing the vocal department entirely.

This is serious bloodletting, even in today's economic climate. Chancellor Reid, whose undergraduate major was physical education, has said that the university can exist without the arts, which is why he has reserved some of the most draconian cuts for music and art.

These cuts NEED TO BE FOUGHT. As alumni know, most of the lessons are done by part time, adjunct faculty. Most of the full timers and tenured professors do not give lessons, they teach theory or composition. (The part time budget is around $250,000. The full time and tenured faculty budget cannot be cut. )

The tenured faculty, some of whom have not taught lessons in YEARS, are being asked to teach performance to fill in the gap left by the mass part timer firings. This will greatly bring down department standards and will result in many instruments simply not being taught . The vocal program, which will be entirely part timers after June 2010, may be cut completely.

PLEASE HELP!

Take the paragraph below and email it to the addresses provided. JUST CUT AND PASTE.
Or, if you prefer, FAX it to the phone numbers listed at the end of this email.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TItle: Budget Cut Bloodbath at San Diego State Music Department

CSU Chancellor Charles B. Reid has demanded budget cuts of over a quarter of a million dollars in San Diego State's Music Department. This amount represents all of the part time budget and most of the performance faculty. A music department cannot exist without its performance faculty to give lessons, and most of San Diego State's performance faculty is part time. There has even been talk of abolishing the very popular voice department, which is almost entirely staffed with part time, untenured faculty.

Chancellor Reid has been deaf to appeals and does not understand or care about the devastating effect of cutting most of the performance faculty in a music department. Chancellor Reid seems to have a low opinion of the arts and seems to believe that the university can exist without music, dance, or visual arts courses.

SDSU music faculty are already on furlough, which has resulted in a 15% salary decrease for this year. The department budget has been cut to bare bones levels. But these further cuts will destroy the music department's very reason for existence, the transmission of musical skills to students.

Please help us by asking Chancellor Reid to reconsider.

Thank you.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


SEND THIS EMAIL TO THE FOLLOWING:

1. CONTACT EMAILS FOR CHAIR, BOARD OF TRUSTEES (Jeffrey L. Bleich), CSU Chancellor, Charles B. Reed, and Assembly Speaker Karen Bass

lhernandez@calstate.edu
publicaffairs@calstate.edu
speaker.bass@assembly.ca.gov

(Just cut and paste these into your email)


2. EMAIL CONTACT PAGES FOR EX OFFICIO TRUSTEES:

These trustees need to be contacted through special email web pages. The links to these pages are next to their names. PLEASE CONTACT THEM. It will only take a few minutes of your time.

Arnold Schwarzenegger, Governor of California : http://gov.ca.gov/interact#email
John Garamendi, Lieutenant Governor: http://www.ltg.ca.gov/index.php?option=com_rsform&formId=2&Itemid=99999
Jack O'Connell, State Superintendent of Public Instruction: http://www.cde.ca.gov/re/di/cd/ap/mainpage.aspx


3. If you can, follow up your emails with a call or fax:

PHONE/FAX NUMBERS

Arnold Schwarzenegger, Governor of California
Phone: 916-445-2841
Fax: 916-558-3160 ( new number )

John Garamendi, Lieutenant Governor
Phone: 916.445.8994
Fax: 916.323.4998

Jack O'Connell: State Superintendent of Public Instruction
General: 916-319-0800
TTY/TDD: 916-445-4556

Charles B. Reid, CSU Chancellor
Phone: (562) 951-4700
Fax: (562) 951-4986

Karen Bass, Speaker of the Assembly
(916) 319-2047
(916) 319-2147 (fax)


4. SEND THIS TO EVERYONE YOU CAN THINK OF, YOUR WHOLE EMAIL LIST. PUT THIS UP ON YOUR FACEBOOK PAGE. GET THE WORD OUT!



Thanks for the help. I wouldn't be writing if things didn't look dire.



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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks for the rec
:hi:
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
2. Cut the football program, instead.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. The Chancellor is a physical education major who played football--no way he's cutting that.
:(
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. then we would be getting posts asking us to call to save the football program
i guess we all have irons in the fire and our favourite causes, for some the music dept is important, to others its not. no idea how to reconcile the differences or decide who loses out...
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. In my experience, football teams are never cut: too much ad revenue. It's the arts and liberal arts
that consistently get cut.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. well there you go, why cut a program that generates money that helps pay for itself
cut the other programs makes more sense....
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #6
14. The problem is football doesn't pay for itself. It never did.
I'll get the figures on it, but most of the time, football ends up costing the university, even with all the ad revenue.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. even if it does, more people probuably participate and would be willing to fight for it
the football teams tend to be the schools team spirit thing, whereas no one really cares about the music program apart from a very few people involved directly..
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. That notwithstanding, what happens to the hardworking, disciplined musicians who
can't afford to attend a conservatory? Why shouldn't they be able to major in music at a good state school?
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. the same thing as the hardworking construction worker, or waitress who loses their job
they need to look elsewhere or go into another proffession, people all over the place are being fired and having to deal with the realities of the economy why not the musicians...
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. There are no other places for musicians to go, my friend. The high schools have pink slipped their
music teachers. It's hard times for everyone, but a skilled musician without a job is not considered a skilled laborer by business. And even low paying retail doesn't have any jobs.

You really don't get what's going on. It sounds like you live a pretty sheltered life.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. lol what im saying is that they have to do the same as every other worker does
and retrain for a new career, why should they be protected more than any other person out there.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Retrain for what? Seriously. All of these are people with Master's Degrees.
What are they supposed to retrain for? Their specialties are music and education, both of which are being slashed to the bone. They've been working for years at what they do. What do you suggest they retrain for? Computers? IT is not hiring. Seriously. Give me something they can train for.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. well im sure the oft mentioned buggy whip makers had to retrain when cars made it big
ive got no idea what jobs if any are in the area they reside or if they would be willing to move, but like many others who have had to radically change their career path including myself its something they may have to do.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. In other words you have no real suggestions. Just a world view.
When you have some real careers that highly skilled people who love their work can transition into, you let me know. For now, it looks like fighting the grannies and the high school kids to be Wal Mart greeter.

If you are a Democrat, why don't you want to save a few jobs?
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. because i understand that if you save these jobs then the money is taken from somewhere else
and others lose their jobs, i dont value these jobs as more valuable than the others. Also the advice i am giving is universal in that if you think that you can spend your whole life just doing stuff you love then you may be in for a rude awakening, more and more nowadays people are having to retrain and retool for the changes in the world.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. I asked you for specifics, not for for more talking points.
Give me something these highly educated and dedicated people can really retrain for.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. okay, if they can get through the police academy i know agencies that are hiring
i also know a couple of mechanic jobs that are going, and i know a landscaper who is needing to replace a worker.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #39
43. Police academies like young, fit recruits. Some of these folks are in their 40s and 50s
They're not climbing walls any time soon. Where are these mechanic and landscaper jobs? And won't the mechanic jobs eventually be filled by Saturn mechanics who will be losing their jobs very soon? Landscaping jobs will be taken by landscapers who have lost their jobs for other properties (closed businesses and foreclosed middle class homes and the like) will take the landscaping jobs before a 40-year old violinist can adequately train for the job.

You really haven't thought this out, have you?
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. lol the lanscaper job dosent need any training, just someone who will turn up and can use a weedwac
the agencies are looking for all types of people, yes even in their 40's. The mechanic jobs need some training but at least looking at training is better than woe woe is me. seems to me that what you are saying is that the 40 year old violinist is unable to do anything else or unwilling so he should be protected from the economy that everyone else faces...
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. OK. and is the landscaping job a long term job or a temporary position?
And if you've never used a weed-wacker, who is going to take a chance on you? Here is California, they'll pay illegals under minimum wage to do landscaping.

Thanks again for the talking points. You're really a good bullshitter. You should try to get a job with GOP. :)
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. lol still you miss the point, your friends job is going, he needs to step up like the rest of the
people, he needs to find something else to do whether its landscaping, working in a bar or something else in music, he wont be the first or the last person who needs to retrain due to changing economies.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. You're still missing the point. The jobs aren't out there to have.
Thanks, once again, for the talking points. :rofl:
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. lol and your missing the point, the music job isnt there, so he had better start to look elsewhere
Edited on Thu Oct-15-09 12:57 PM by vadawg
at doing something different... i just told you of a job i know that is going but for some reason you dont think working a weedwacker is for him...
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #55
95. No, I said the job looked temporary and was no replacement for what he lost
You are not going to change your mind until something happens to you. You may have changed careers, but I don't think you have through what these people have been through.

I think you are foolish, and if you're lucky and nothing happens to you, you'll stay that way.

But if something does happen to you, I hope you will remember this interchange.

:donut:
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #95
99. lol yeah like ive never had to totally change my lifes plans and move on
im sorry but what exactly have these people been through, theres millions of people going through the same or worse as we speak who are just as deserving of you sending emails and posting on forums...
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #99
107. Whatever.
Thanks for the discussion.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. lol whatever now thats funny....
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #108
109. Glad you're enjoying it.
:)
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #109
111. i always enjoy arguing with people, its always interesting to see different views
one of the reasons why i never use ignore, ive always been a student of other people, their crazy ways intrigue me :)
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #111
112. Well, I have found you sufficiently crazy to have warranted a few minutes.
:)
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #112
113. lol not sure if thats a compliment or not, i just figured we are from totally different cultures
so we are gonna bash heads and disagree on stuff :)
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #113
115. That's about right.
Edited on Thu Oct-15-09 05:06 PM by Nikki Stone1
:)

I think if you actually had a kid in the music program, you might feel differently. Many music departments survive on part time instrumental and voice teachers. The full time tenured folks are usually in "theory", which is quite useless most of the time. The people who do the real work are often the part timers (called adjuncts).

The entire part-time/adjunct budget at SDSU is $270,000.

The full-time/tenured/tenure track budget at SDSU is $2.1 million.

The part-time instrumental instructors teach lessons two days a week all day--about 16 hours of contact time--plus extra time preparing for recitals and theatrical shows.

The full-time theory instructors teach 9 contact hours per week, and some barely have the additional office hours they are supposed to have.

If the department were a business, the cuts would be clear: get rid of the highly paid dead wood, and keep the hard working part-timers that serve the most students and actually "are" the program. Unfortunately, because of tenure, that $2.1 million is untouchable.

If you want a point of agreement, tenure rewards laziness.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #115
117. lol you are probuably right about if my kids were there, but i live in VA where football is god
good discussion with you, now im going to go off shift and wont be back until monday so have a good weekend and ill argue stuff with you again..
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #117
118. Take care.
:)
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #118
120. thanks mojitos all round
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #120
123. Say hi to I 95 for me.
:)
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #123
125. lol im lucky i head west away fromthe bampottery that is 95
:)
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #125
127. Ah, smart.
:)
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #49
130. "Changing economies"?
There's been no sudden drop in demand for music. What's happening here is that a chancellor with a narrow worldview is focusing his budget cuts tightly on the arts. That's not going to help SDSU's reputation -- or, ultimatley, its alumni fundraising -- very much.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #39
61. Here is a hint
San diego has frozen all employment, that includes the police...

You really live a very strange life

No, here is an idea, and I will send a letter to the President of the US, since the ARTS are valuable... the WPA had a program that included the ARTS... at one time democrats understood that.

Given the Quad was built by the WPA... perhaps those folks in the WH will get it.

It is not just all about jobs dear...
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. whos talking about san diego, im saying the violinist may have to move and change his plans
the same as lots of people have to do throughout their working career...
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #64
68. Are you employed vadawg?
That's a serious question.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #68
73. yes i am, i am on the third major career in my working lifetime
and if it goes tits up i will start again somewhere else the same as ive done before.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. What have your careers been?
Again, a serious question.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #75
79. well military, insurance, law enforcement.. plus with a smattering of other jobs as needed..
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #79
84. Military and law enforcement are related.
Edited on Thu Oct-15-09 01:32 PM by Nikki Stone1
I suppose that music educators could go into selling insurance, but, again, in these tough economic times, a company might not take a chance on someone with no experience selling insurance.

Certain backgrounds lend themselves better to crossover skills than others. A military background is an added bonus to a lot of companies, who will hire you often despite your actual qualifications. In the Federal Government, veterans receive enough "extra points" to outrank any other job applicant who has the best skills. I have a highly skilled IT friend who could not get a job for which he was so qualified that the job was practically tailored to him because a vet decided he wanted the position, even though his computer skills were much more limited. In the end, the agency closed the job rather than hire the incompetent vet, but you get my drift. OF course, you served your country and I believe that deserves some compensation from society.

But for musical educators, the crossover skills are not as clear. Insurance sales would be the only one of your careers that I could see an educator transitioning into, but even then, it would be problematic, especially with the lack of jobs.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. i dont get extra points, but i have also worked concrete, construction
worked in bars, bounced, been a busboy and just about anything else i coule find when the need arose. You say the musical educator dosent have crossover skills but it does not take a lot of skill to work a weedwacker or a lot of training to pull a pint.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #85
97. Musicians always hustle and work different jobs. But this is not a secure way to make a living
Universities provide some stability, even in part time positions.

I have a feeling you're not a fan of music outside of pop or rock. This is something you don't value.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #97
100. exactly they hustle at different jobs, the same as other people
and your friend is going to have to do what millions have had to do throughout the years and plan for another career mayby in another place. No i value music, i just dont think that everyone values it the same or that just because someone is a musician they should be protected when everyone else in society is losing their jobs due to cutbacks...
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. What have your careers been?
Again, a serious question.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #64
72. And you know HOW MANY DEPARTMENTS RIGHT NOW
are frozen or out right FIRING personnel?

Again, there is more to life.

You live in a place where football is religion, I don't.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #72
105. It is a bloodbath.
Thanks for your support Nadin.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #61
66. THANK YOU NADIN!!!! Maybe chuckles the armchair economist will get it now.
You're in San Diego. Would you care to contact the people on the list?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #66
70. I will... we had this fight back in the 1990s
sociology, nutrition and poli sci were on the cutting board as FULL departments back then... part of history, part of the arts... but NEVER the under performing team that is a fraud called the Aztec Football Team.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #70
90. What a frigging mess.
:(
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #66
71. lol i do get it, you think that this should be a protected position
that the job should always be there no matter what, that they are to valuable to have to do other work or god forbid move to another part of the country. I am simply stating that if the job is gone then your friend is going to have to join the millions looking for work.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #71
80. So in your view we as a society should not value certain callings
and we should not invest in certain things like the Arts.

Mind you, I have heard this argument way too many times from RIGHT WINGERS.

Look, you may not get this... in fact I doubt you ever will, but in my view football teams should go well before arts, and things like history go...

Now those are intellectual pursuits, and muricans don't get their importance, never have, and I fear never will.

Oh and you also do not get it... training musicians is important for a society, actually more important than football players.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. lol not only right wingers prefer football to art you know
to you musicians are important, to the general public not so much, is the musician more important than the mechanic, not if you need a mechanic, its all relative... Now a truly great musician dosent need to be given a job, people will pay them for their art same as the great artists.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #83
102. Yep, why this country is backwards and second world
not first world
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #102
119. What does second world entail?
I never actually heard the term.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #119
131. It was used to describe the USSR by political scientists
It entails a country that is well industrialized (we can argue that for the US right now) but who's values are not exactly those of a modern country...

Of course chiefly it is described by indices such as child mortality, which was higher in the USSR... and it is high in the US, as well as median income level.

It is an old term really.

And even if the US fits definitions economically of a developed economy, it fits more, in my view, the definition of an empire in decline.

The attitude that the arts don't matter and football does well to me is indicative of that as well. Bread and circuses come to mind, as the muffins bake by the way.
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DatManFromNawlins Donating Member (640 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #71
129. But... but... they have MASTERS DEGREES!
Like anybody gives a shit. You don't get a pass in life just because you went to school for 2 years longer than most in a degree program that has virtually zero economic worth outside of training other people just like you.

The arts are important, but they are hardly THE priority when using academics to educate and train the future of society.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
59. Team spirit at SDSU?
Hell the Daily Aztec had the yearly homecoming story, but homecoming was ... not well attended.

You kid yourself. At SDSU football is NOT a religion.
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madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #14
31. hhmm, this sound exactly like what goes on in our local school district. Every time there
are cuts the arts program gets it. Every time they want a levy renewed it's "if it doesn't pass, we'll lose football", but when something is said about making football a pay to play, "OH no football is self sufficient, the boosters takes care of everything" They all get their training from the same place?
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. Same department of ed. Are you
willing to help and just send the email to the top three people on the email? I would much appreciate it. My friend is about to lose his job.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #31
63. They tried that on the marching band at my daughters' high school
Turns out the boosters made more money for that one band that any fundraiser in the district (except the property tax levy). The principal tried to tax the band to pay for other programs, but did not tax the football team. A quiet slow motion riot ensued. Band director finally called the boosters off since the district and principal were wincing from the pressure and the several school board members were at the point of saying each extra curricular activity had to be self supporting or go away.

The metrics behind the music programs in high school are much more compelling than sports. It took strong parent behind a nationally ranked marching band to make that point stick.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #63
121. The problem is at the university, parents are rarely involved.
The taxpayers who support the university are usually clueless.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
56. Having worked in that program here you go with some facts
it DOES NOT pay for itself

It loses money consistently

It does not fill any stadium, has not in years. It is consistently at the bottom performance of its league, and add revenue? You must be joking... the Aztecs are such a lousy team that there is really no add revenue coming in.

And the students who are also football players are pushed to perform on the field instead of actually getting an education.

They are also consistently told a lie, that they will make it to the NFL. In the history of the program only ONE player made it... Fouts...

So it is a fraud... that also takes money and space from teams that ACTUALLY perform to high standards both in the field and off the field... such as the Baseball team, the soccer team, both female and male (the female team is world class, as many of its members have gone to the world cup to represent the US), as well as the softball team, female. Something about tittle XIV which the athletics department has a problem understanding.

Of course there is more... but that program should go... and a long time ago... or actually create a program that works, which they have failed to do for over fifty years. Why start now?
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. thanks for an answer, so if they got rid of this program as well
how much more money would they save..
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. Over forty million dollars
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #62
67. well then why not scrap both programs, save money that can be used in other areas
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #67
81. You don't get it
by bye...

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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #81
86. lol what you mean is i dont agree that the music program is more worthy than the football team
it dosent really matter to me what one gets saved i just understand that when budgets are tight stuff gets nixed and the stuff that is less popular goes first....
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #56
65. Thanks for bringing facts to the table the OP did not
Programs can help or hurt. If this one is a loser, kill it, but be prepared for Title Nine impacts as well as claims of racial bias.

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #65
74. The OP didn't have the facts and enthusiastically thanks Nadin for providing them
Have you seen Professor Mike's statement on this? It's on this thread.

He teaches at Humboldt and posts here.

"Interesting that you should ask that question. The president and provost of my university have recently been saying that the HSU of the future will not be a state university, but rather a university that receives some state support. They're strongly advocating seeking private funding to replace dwindling state dollars. Now on the one hand, I can certainly understand why they're doing this-- it takes money to run a university, and if the state won't support us, we either have to seek support elsewhere or close the doors-- but it's a direct refutation of California's Master Plan for Education and the public compact that made higher ed here among the best and most accessible in the world. We're stepping backwards as fast as we can and calling it progress of some sort.

Gotta run to class!"

This confirms my thinking about the future of the university sytem in California. It will be "privatized" by funding streams.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #65
82. The problem is that the tittle nine beneifts,
the other programs, and that includes the basketball program, have to fight for them.

It has been a bad program for a long time, and protected from anything.

Funny thing... this is not a religion at SDSU, but it is treated as if it were by the administration.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #56
69. NADIN, you're my hero today. Thank you.
:patriot:
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
110. Yes
:kick:
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. In many cases the football program is self supporting and the really good ones
Edited on Thu Oct-15-09 09:34 AM by ProgressiveProfessor
provide the funding for Title 9 programs. Not sure this is true in this case or not. If its not close to self funding, then I agree it should be on the chopping block as well.

Everyone needs to be aware that a major football program is cut, some Title Nine activities will go with it.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. I don't know if Aztec football is at that level. They are not in the top league
But if you really are a professor, wouldn't you rather have the arts than not?
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #15
41. I teach at a public university in California, and have mixed feelings about major athletic programs
Those programs are often the draw for minority males and provide them scholarships, the most poorly represented group in higher education. Also large basketball or football programs bring with them comparable Title Nine support, and provides scholarships for women that would not otherwise be there. So I believe that there are some important secondary benefits to them that should not be overlooked

The rest of it is dependent on the school. Number of participants, number of required courses for graduation it provides for the larger student population, and other important metrics. You have not provided nearly enough detail to show that the decision is biased or ill advised. You did not even provide percentages across departments. Those kind of details are important to rational discourse.

Despite all of the above, as a generality, I do prefer the arts over athletics.


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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #41
48. If you're concerned about minority students, the CAL STATE system is where they are
The UC's are mostly white and Asian. In San Diego (and I've seen this with my own eyes when I was down visiting my friend) the local UC, UCSD, is almost all white and Asian. If you see an African American or Latino, they are probably working the grounds. That is what Proposition 209 has wrought. The high SAT scores are all that matter.

It's SAN DIEGO STATE where you find most of the African American and Latino students. Those are precisely the universities that will be suffering most under the cuts. The UCs are not undergoing these same cuts.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #48
57. Your characterization of the UC system is incorrect.
UC is taking major cuts as well. The hard science/technical areas are not being hit as hard as liberal arts and fine arts programs, but that is true just about everywhere, some consider it a travesty, others a well overdue correction.

Back to SDSU...it is precisely because its part of the CSU system that I brought up the secondary (and often not understood) benefits of big athletics on a campus. A niece got a full ride to CSULB for softball. She never would have gotten that were it not for the football program there and Title Nine.

Like I said in my prior post, while I support the arts over athletics, there are some benefits, particularly at a CSU campus that needs to be considered. You still have not provided any metrics. Those are key today in higher education decisions.


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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #57
77. The UC system is NOT taking the cuts that the Cal State is---yet.
I have been watching it.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #77
134. Some areas are being hit hard
And 209 impacts CSU as well as CU.
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Hawkeye-X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
7. Hmm. I'm going to pass this on to my cousin who graduated from SDSU...
and see what she thinks about it.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #7
19. Tell her to check into what is happening to the whole university--it's unbelievable
But most of these funding cuts are happening on the QT. Nobody is really hearing about the specifics. And the Cal State Chancellor is as dumb as a box of rocks from everything I've heard. He is up here in the Long Beach area and he is not well liked.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
9. What percenatge cut is this in the department, are other departments cutting at similar levels?
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Other departments are not cutting at the same levels
The arts have been selected for the worst reductions.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
10. urgent? with caps and 2 exclamation marks?
hardly.

most people in this country have MUCH bigger concerns than the music department at san diego state.

sorry.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. California without the arts is just a military complex center
without the arts, from music to film to the visual arts, California would not be California. Anyone who cares about our culture and the ability of our young people to comprehend their place in that culture should support arts education with passion.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Exactly.
:kick:
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. This is going on throughout CSU, not just San Diego. I happen to have a friend there, but I know
other CSUs are cutting the arts madly as well. We will have a whole system without the arts. That may not matter to you, but quit unrec'ing something you don't understand.

And learn to use capital letters when beginning your sentences. I might take you more seriously.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. then perhaps it best belongs in the california state forum.
that's why those forums exist, you know.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #25
32. It's already there, dear. But state forums are not GD and don't get the traffic.
You know that. :)
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #32
42. and of course california issues are more importnant than that...
:eyes:
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #42
53. It will be coming to your state next. As with California.....
...so the nation.

California has always been a bell weather state for the rest of the country. Take heed.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #17
27. "but quit unrec'ing something you don't understand."
what makes you think that i 'unrec'd' anything...?
i neither rec or unrec any posts, because it's a feature that i have no interest in using.
i've never understood some people's weird fixation on it.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #27
35. Well, then you're one of the few with the self discipline not to use it.
I think it merely allows trolls and paid operatives to get block important threads and some power hungry member to get their rocks off.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
20. For those who unrec'd this thread: you keep talking about a jobless recovery and evil Wall Street.
Well, here is your chance to help some good people NOT lose their jobs. Do you want a highly skilled musician working at Wal Mart as a greeter? Really? It's not like there is any other institution to pick up the slack. The public school pink-slipped their teachers in the arts. Wouldn't you rather have these people employed?

What's wrong with you? Are you DINOs?
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
21. I can't believe a Tiffany's ad got 35 recs for a PR move, but saving jobs is getting unrec'd
And yeah, my friend is going to lose his part time job. So are a whole lot of other musicians. You want more unemployed out there?
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #21
28. Perhaps you should start a "shamelessly whoring for recs" thread...nt
Sid
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #28
37. If I thought it would help, I would. You may have meant that to insult me, but it's actually
not a bad idea, if it works. I'll think about it.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
38. I'm at CSU Humboldt State University-- this is happening throughout the CSU system....
The total budget shortfall this academic year was $564 million. The cuts are brutal. Faculty have been furloughed for a ten percent pay cut, our negotiated salary raises have been taken back, and layoffs are probably inevitable this year or (certainly) next year, when the situation will be even worse. Student costs have increased by 32 percent THIS SEMESTER ALONE. Qualified California students are being denied entry into the CSU for the first time in its history. Programs are being cut and classes are being canceled. It's going to get worse before it gets better, I'm afraid.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. Hi Professor Mike! And yes, the cuts are brutal.
What's your take on what the end result of this is going to be? Is this more of the drive to privatize education? Cal States have to go begging for money to pay their profs? Maybe Qualcomm can sponsor the San Diego Music Department and dictate its curriculum.

Or do you think CA will eventually get back higher funding levels and some of these funds will be restored?

As it is, California student priority has changed, I fear, forever.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #40
44. re: the drive to privatize education....
Interesting that you should ask that question. The president and provost of my university have recently been saying that the HSU of the future will not be a state university, but rather a university that receives some state support. They're strongly advocating seeking private funding to replace dwindling state dollars. Now on the one hand, I can certainly understand why they're doing this-- it takes money to run a university, and if the state won't support us, we either have to seek support elsewhere or close the doors-- but it's a direct refutation of California's Master Plan for Education and the public compact that made higher ed here among the best and most accessible in the world. We're stepping backwards as fast as we can and calling it progress of some sort.

Gotta run to class!
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. Wow. Your president has just confirmed my suspicions.
I think the Master Plan is dead.

When corporations fund the university, they'll want a say in curriculum. It will be Green Dot or Edison at the university level.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
46. I'm worried about the future of CA, sigh nt
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. ME too.
Look at Mike-C's post.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #52
87. Nikki check your personal messages
I am sending you my email to keep in touch on this and an idea.
-FD
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #87
116. flamingdem, you've got mail
Thanks!
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
54. flashbacks to the 1990s
when I was a senior at SDSU

We had to fight them.

Back then it was the sociology, poli sci and nutrition department.

I will send emails... but damn it, why not just cut the damn Aztec Football program? Would be a good start and it is a scam in my view.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #54
60. Upthread I pointed some of the hidden benefits of larger athletics programs
in terms of minority scholarships and Title Nine impacts. Not that it is always enough to justify a large program and it depends heavily on how much the program contributes/costs the school. The OP has not posted enough metrics to know.

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #54
78. The Chancellor is a physical education major who played football--no way he's cutting that.
:(
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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #78
89. Who would appoint a PE major to run a college ???
How did that ever get past the Governor? Oh ... wait ...

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #89
92. LOL!!!!!!
:D
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
88. No amount of phone calls or emails will solve a problem rooted in BUDGET concerns.
No amount.

I have something to admit though; I was reading through the responses, agreeing with some and disagreeing with others, when I came upon your post about unrecs. I immediately scrolled back to the top and unrecc'd this thread before I continued reading.

You should really stop that. I post without concern for recs/unrecs. In fact, I'd venture a guess that my rec to unrec ratio is probably on the order of 1 to 20. Do I care? Hell no.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #88
93. Why should I stop commenting about unrecs if you are silly enough to have a Pavlovian reaction to it
I'm not going to curtail my speech because you are silly. :)
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #88
94. Pressure does help.
That's why people do it.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #94
104. Pressure displaces the pain onto someone else.
Maybe it's the engineering department. Maybe it's the medical school. Maybe it's tuition assistance.

Either way, part time music staff seems like a pretty benign place to cut a college's budget.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #104
106. Actually, there is evidence that music is being singled out and that cronyism is playing a part
I can't get into every detail, but some programs which should have the fat cut out of them are not being cut. They are protecting their cronies.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
91. Quick correction:
Charles B. Reed is the correct spelling.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
96. BM, 1975
I have tomorrow off and will make calls.

...:hi:
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #96
98. Thanks!
I appreciate it.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
101. Letter sent, short, sweet and to the point
Dear Sir:


It saddens me that as usual the arts take it in the chin while things like Aztec Football remain unscathed. I realize we live in difficult times, but I am also sure people at the highest levels of education are missing the importance of the arts.


Perhaps you should visit the Campus. Walk over to the Quad, and read the plaque detailing how that part of the Campus was built with WPA money. This is not the worst crisis in California history, but it is a crisis that special interests are using to destroy the Master Plan for the state.


I guess we are at the point where education is no longer a priority.


Sincerely,

XXXX

SDSU Graduate


PS If we had children we would seriously consider moving to a state where education is important still. California is not a state that cares for Education any longer. That saddens me.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #101
124. Thanks!!
Did you send it to the addresses above?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #124
132. Yep... I needed to do it at home
Why I bookmarked the thread
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
103. I think that the expectation that the real economy not affect academia is unrealistic.
Given the range of drastic cuts elsewhere in California government, and the impact those cuts will have on the public, I find it hard to work up much outrage over part time music teachers.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #103
122. As I said before, music is bearing a disproportionate amount of the cuts.
In addition, the cuts are being made unwisely. Productive people essential to the functioning of the department are being let go and the dead wood is staying. Why don't you help us out and send an email? :)
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
114. kickipoo
:kick:
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Vehl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
126. Educators should not be laid off. They are a national resource! + recd
Edited on Thu Oct-15-09 05:48 PM by Vehl
The certain few here who keep on insisting that these arts faculty should go try get some other jobs do not understand that teachers are one of the best resources a nation has. Any Tom Dick and Harry can train to be a policeman or a soldier(two of the "jobs" held by one of those naysayers) but to be an educator takes more than just saying "yes sir" and following orders. Furthermore Educators "Educate" the next generation...if all of them were to keep on switching jobs as some have suggested..it would seriously affect the education(and also the quality of it) the next generation will get. Especially the arts fields(i'm not in that field nor in the teaching field) require constant practice. If teachers were to go work some other job and come back to teach Art 10 years later...the chances are that they will be very outdated/out of touch with the field. Therefore educators should be protected from this fire-and hire mentality that plagues a lot of institutions nowadays.

This is the last thing we want in a competitive world.(with many countries already producing more students than American does)Firing teachers is akin to shooting our own foot.

When will people stop thinking of immediate benefits and look at the long term?


PS: all the Best to your friend Nikki..I hope the bloodbath stops. i'll forward this mail to my friends.



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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #126
128. Thank you sooo much!!
I'll pass your kind wishes along. He's trying to figure out where to go from here.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #128
133. If he can and has the resources
I hate to say it... another country where they do appreciate education.

When all this is over... the Empire will be dead wood...
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #128
135. Shoot, late to the party again! Busy week.
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