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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 04:52 PM
Original message
Since So Many Here Keep Asking This Question, I'll Answer It.
Edited on Wed Dec-02-09 04:55 PM by berni_mccoy
The question often asked here by many is, 'what does it mean to "win" in Afghanistan', or 'why are we there'. The latter question is closer to what is really being asked, what is our goal there. Back in March, President Obama gave a speech that clearly defined the goal, and you can read the entire plan here: http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/09/03/27/A-New-Strategy-for-Afghanistan-and-Pakistan/

An excerpt:

The President put forth the central question:


Many people in the United States -- and many in partner countries that have sacrificed so much -- have a simple question: What is our purpose in Afghanistan? After so many years, they ask, why do our men and women still fight and die there? And they deserve a straightforward answer.


And gave his answer:

So I want the American people to understand that we have a clear and focused goal: to disrupt, dismantle and defeat al Qaeda in Pakistan and Afghanistan, and to prevent their return to either country in the future. That's the goal that must be achieved. That is a cause that could not be more just.



It's understandable given the past 8 years of an administration either completely failing at one war or lying us into another war, that people don't want to trust a new Administration with such an important task or even that the task is really what it is. But if you voted for President Obama, he at least deserves the benefit of the doubt that there is indeed a threat and that he would not mislead us into an unnecessary conflict. Trust but verify is what many say here, and it's a valid position to take.

If you don't believe that Al Qaeda is a threat, then it's easy to see how you don't believe in this goal. But the fact is, Al Qaeda is a real threat and they have been since 9/11. Michael Moore is fond of reminding us that the terrorists of 9/11 were all Saudi. That's absolutely true. So is Bin Laden. Bin Laden, in fact, is an exiled Saudi Prince, so it makes sense that he has people willing and able to follow and serve him who are Saudis. In fact, he had quite a group in Afghanistan during the Soviet Invasion, and yes, he was supported by the CIA to help undermine the Soviet effort. The War in Afghanistan during the 80's could have easily been considered yet another proxy conflict during the Cold War, just like Vietnam. The fact is, OBL is a monster that was created by Neocon Foreign Policy, just like Saddam Hussein was. As Rev. Wright would say, he was a chicken that came home to roost. In fact, you can consider the fact that Al Qaeda is actively combating troops in Afghanistan as casualties are increasing, over half of which are killed by IED explosions. Yes, indeed, they are actively trying to get us out of Afghanistan.

For those who get past the conspiracy theory that Al Qaeda isn't real, they next consider if defeating Al Qaeda be meaningless since they will just go into Pakistan. President Obama knows the reality of this and has no hesitation about fighting Al Qaeda in Pakistan as well. He expects the Pakistani government's cooperation and strong effort, and if they do not comply, has promised to strike at Al Qaeda in Pakistan. So far, the Pakistani government has complied and has allowed Coalition strikes to occur inside Pakistani borders. President Obama's plan, from the beginning, included active military engagement inside of Pakistan. So flushing Al Qaeda out of Afghanistan is only part of it, and it isn't possible without the troop numbers to do it.

That is the goal. You may think the conflict is not real. You may deny that it is achievable. But there is a clear goal presented. That is not deniable.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. that goal is a fool's errand, at best
and a war crimes charge, if there's any justice.

Who died and made us Emperor of the World?
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. For your information, the World is engaged in this conflict, not just us.
Edited on Wed Dec-02-09 04:59 PM by berni_mccoy
The UN validated the U.S. right to engage in Operation Enduring Freedom and the UN created it's own, separate force under the command of NATO called the ISAF.
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. oh baloney....this is all about oil and drugs...
bin ladin is dead and there are a hundred al quida so we should send our sons and daughtors to die for oil and drugs and lies? sheesh.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Have fun with that reality then, if it keeps you going.
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. so...its all about sending 100,000 us troops for the 100 al quida
Edited on Wed Dec-02-09 05:08 PM by winyanstaz
there? :P bwaaahahahaaaaa
oh noz...wait...I got it! Its all about destroying the poppy fields and the drugs...but..unfortunatly it was down under the taliban and is now pouring into american cities under our occupation...so sheesh..cant be that..
umm what is the reason again?
Oh yes...100 thousand American troops to get one guy...that dead one?
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. well, no, they're not, really... although Mooseburger and Russia are both stoked
so you and they have something in common. ;)
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
40. yeah, right...
Edited on Thu Dec-03-09 01:20 PM by ixion
have some more Kool-Aid® :eyes:
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. The bushies and the necons tried and set this whole clusterfuck in motion
We have to clean up the fucking mess THEY made before we leave.

An uptick of fighting might happen before that happens.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. you don't get it: WE ARE THE MESS
and all we have to do to clean it up is leave.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
28. And let how many afghanis die at the hands of the Taliban??
Most of the ones who believed what we said we'd do and helped our efforts???

They don't matter, they will be out of sight.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Yes, it is so much better to be shot at with American Bullets
:eyes:

We'll talk in a few months/years when it's obviously an abject failure.
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FSogol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. k & r n/t
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
7. No, The former question is closer to what is really being asked
of people who make the statement we need to "win" in Afghanistan. Nice sidestep! :wow:
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. There is no "win". Obama inherited a Lose-Lose proposition. The best that can be done
is what he is doing.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. Tell it to the people who say "win"
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whatchamacallit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
8. Amazing how many "liberals" liked the flavor of the neocon koolaid
The war on terra is a sick joke.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. If that's the case, would you be comfortable just leaving the 100
Al Qaeda there? They would not increase in number, nor would they plan an attack that they could carry out in the West?

I was against Bush's exaggeration of terra to gain power. But I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that Al Qaeda is no danger and never was. I actually think they have little chance of making another attack - they blew the surprise factor on 911. But there's a small nagging doubt there that they could and must be handled one way or the other.
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frylock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
35. you use special forces and surgical strikes..
you don't send three fucking brigades to do a mop up. 1000 to 1 ratio. fuck me.
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
11. I don't think AQ wants us to leave. I think they have been trying to lure us in all along.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. The Taliban is cheering the escalation.
More targets, easier recruiting.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
13. The Bogeyman argument. We have to fight them there...
“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.” H.L. Mencken
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
17. Okay, "disrupt, dismantle and defeat al Qaeda"
What does that mean? Is al Qaeda an identifiable group of people such that we can exterminate them forever? Is it a set of beliefs that an identifiable group of people subscribe to? Because it seems that if it's the "idea" thing and not the "people" thing, it's going to be awful hard to exterminate. And isn't it likely that more people will be drawn to the banner of violent extremism against the west if we pursue a violent solution?

Will violence drive out violence, or merely perpetuate it? We've lost thousands already in violent resistance to the violence of Al Qaeda, and killed thousands more in eight years. Will another 18 months of violence accomplish what the previous eight years of violence has failed to accomplish? Is there a rational basis for believing that, because I don't think it's something that can be proved. A lot of folks at DU have an awful lot of fun at the expense of people of faith (sky wizard, invisible friend, dupes, and so forth); but this looks a lot more like the delusional thinking that faith is caricatured to be by some.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Click the link and read the plan that is referenced at that page
See if those don't answer your questions first.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #18
30. No, it didn't
The concept of "al Qaeda" seems rather fungible in those six pages. Sometimes it appears to be an identifiable group, other times, it seems to be treated as an idea, seemingly dependent on what the author wants to propose in any particular paragraph. There isn't a clear definition. I appreciate the concept of not giving away the game plan to the adversary, but the anti-matter language in that paper seems designed to bamboozle rather than elucidate. For example, "benchmarks" are mentioned several times but not defined, and alternatives should those goals not be met are not dealt with. It's nice to think that now that the adults are in charge, things will go swimmingly in Afghanistan, and the twin banners of democracy and freedom will have people flocking to them. The reality will almost surely be different, and there doesn't appear to be contingencies built in.

This seems more like a recipe for eternal commitment rather than a road map out of Afghanistan. Nebulous goals are no goals at all, and I think after eight years of spending our treasure and blood there, the American people deserve a little more flesh on these bones. And I'm not seeing it in this paper.
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timtom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
19. "Let's win this war in Vietnam, and THEN get out!"
Popular bumper sticker/poster/slogan from around 1966-1968.
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quiet.american Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
20. Berni, nicely done. Thanks for posting. nt
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
21. Easy peasey lemon sqeezy, huh?
To disrupt, dismantle and defeat al Qaeda in Pakistan and Afghanistan, and to prevent their return to either country in the future.


That line is meaningless. How do we know when they are sufficiently disrupted, dismantled and defeated?
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OutNow Donating Member (538 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
23. Lyndon Johnson syndrome
If people remember LBJ, it is usually for his escalation of the war in Vietnam. He knew it destroyed his presidency and didn't run for reelection in 1968. His liberal Vice President then endorsed LBJ's escalation and lost the election. During this debacle, LBJ's legacy of the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act and the War on Poverty were sidelined as more and more focus and funding went into the war.

If you can't see the similarity in the current situation you must be a) very young, or b) very stupid.
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
24. Clear as mud!
Edited on Wed Dec-02-09 05:41 PM by spoony
"prevent their return to either country in the future"

Now there's a tangible goal! Good luck with that!
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onethatcares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
25. basically it boils down to
if we don't "win" by 2011 we walk away leaving a Viet Namlike nutcake. Or we continue to pour troops and material in thinking that if we just carpet bomb the Pakistani border we'll wipe the enemy out. Meanwhile, the kin of those wiped out remember how they were wiped out and who did the wiping.

if AQ is an idea that no one should invade and occupy thier home turf, they will never lose.

Sorry, but this war is a loser for all of us.

BTW, goals that move constantly are not achievable.
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. we are not "carpet bombing" anywhere
that was 2002 and 2003. There are no massed forces, so such tactics are useless. We have in fact shown that we can find, target, and selectively kill AQ middle management. We will be there until we find and do the same for AQ senior management. It was never going to be any different than this.

I think at the bottom line, we have given up on creating any sembalance of Jeffersonian Democracy there. We simply want to toast the AQ guys and leave. I suspect we will do just that.
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onethatcares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. there will always be
mid management/upper management personnel to take the place of those that retire early for whatever reasons.

I was thinking that we wanted to create schools and opportunities for women there. While the ERA languishes here.

But, what do I know?

btw, carpet bombing was just an acronym. Now we use drones that are smart. Yepper, smart drones, all the more reason to not deploy.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
26. And as Obama stated last night, he's willing to go after Al Qaeda wherever they go
Which means we could be going into Somalia, Sudan, etc. War forever and ever, amen.

Sorry, but I can't hang with this plan for never ending war. We need to stop thinking of this as a military conflict, at its heart it isn't. It is a war of ideas, and you don't bring your military to a war of ideas, you lose every time. Rather you bring in what are the best parts of us, our ideas, our freedom, our aid, our humanitarianism. That's how you win a war of ideas, that's how you defeat Al-Qaeda. Anything else is simply perpetual war, benefiting nobody but the MIC.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
27. KnR.
:kick:
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
29. obama is like kirk
he does not believe in the no win scenario!
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
31. I have yet to be convinced
that al-Qaida is anything other than a CIA-created monster. If they were real we could simply put bounties on heads and the Afghans and Pakis would do our work for us. Given the incredible surveillance powers of our government and our military, I just can't keep believing in this group of phantoms with superhuman powers to evade a multi-trillion-dollar war machine.

The banking cartel is a far bigger threat to this country and we're not spending trillions fighting it.

Let's cut the black budget and see if that improves the situation any.


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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
34. mission accomplished defined victory
a stable, unified, secular, democratic pro-west Afghanistan..
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
36. Kicking since there is another new post asking specifically what the "goal" is.
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Thank you for restating the goal. This is almost...
Edited on Wed Dec-02-09 07:52 PM by YvonneCa
...as difficult as getting people to understand that Iraq didn't have WMD. GWB muddied up people's understanding of what we are facing so badly that some STILL appear confused...even some on this board.

I can understand being against this policy for legitimate reasons...pacifism, concerns about the deficit, thinking that occupation makes things worse...etc. I share many of those concerns.

What I have trouble understanding is being against Obama's decision because he is doing the same thing as GWB, when what he is trying to do...and promised to do...is to FINISH the war against al Qaida. Bush botched it BADLY. Then he went to Iraq and botched that, too.

This is not just Obama being a 'war president' for the politics of it. That is SUCH an insult to him and Democrats who fought to elect him. It is really sad to see...especially here.
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
37. Once we have a timeframe on this can we bet some money as to just how possible it is?
Edited on Wed Dec-02-09 07:37 PM by YOY
Because I really need some folks to put thier money where their mouths are.

I mean...we can do this in 3 years. I'd be willing to put 500$ that is completely fucking impossible.

I think Skinner should start taking down bets here. He can take some off the top for the site.
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