I'm going to dicate a DU post from my father sitting beside me - disabled vietnam vet.

[Political Heretic]

Dad doesn't use the internet too well, and has trouble with some of the complexities of forums and what not. But I often read him what I read on Democratic Underground or what I write. After some of the discussions about the war escalation lately, he got pretty emotional and had a lot to say. So I asked him if he wanted a chance to speak for himself here. I told him, he could dictate and I'd type it for him. Here it is:

"What I want to ask is... I don't get how people can be so gung-ho for war and not serve.

"How come its always poor kids like me getting drafted to fight these things?

"You" {he means me} "keep reading me all these posts making excuses for this war" {afghanistan} "but its always someone else or someone else kid that gets killed, isn't it? Everyone's so happy to send other people to war.

"What I don't get about what you read me is, I dunno," {pause} "its like everyone is deciding what they think about war based on whether its supporting the president... like, I mean its like, okay... Obama's for it, now we're all going to go defend it... we're all hawks now!" {laughs} "Yeah, like Bush or Rudy or whoever it was after 9/11 saying we're all new yorkers now.

"Why can't people think about it from the view of the kids that will die. People have no idea, you know, they don't have a clue, not a clue, what war is actually like.

I've seen... I've seen things I'll never be able to describe to another person who wasn't there... I'm sixty-two and I still wake up with nightmares.. you know this." {he was talking to me}

"It's this horror... its literally ruins lives, whether your live or die... you can't ever be the same again. Instead people wave flags and chant the the president and go watch war movies with Ben Affleck in them {lol, I guess he means Pearl Harbor} and pretend like its something romantic."

"I think it ought to be a law or something that people so happy to escalate wars around the world should have to be drafted. Or if they're old like me, then it should be their sons" {and daughters I'm sure he would agree} "who go fight."

Rich people politic and debate, poor people get sent to die or to experience blood soaked horror I'll never be able to explain to the people chanting USA USA or I guess now OBAMA OBAMA.

{at this point I asked Dad whether, if he was typing for himself do the boards, if he'd want to ask anything specific}

"only I guess does it ever bother the people who have never served or who have children who will not sever and thus are totally safe from any cost.. does it every bother them to be such hypocrites?"

[Thickasabrick]

1. An honor to meet your dad K&R nt

[Neecy]

2. I love your dad.

Please give him a big hug :) He sounds terrific (and his words are spot-on).

[BeFree]

3. Really

Tell your Dad, thanks. My vet Dad is long gone. Were he here, I think he'd say the same as yours.

[livetohike]

4. Thank you Political Heretic's Dad!

:hi: Having seen many of my friends drafted to Viet Nam, reinstituting the draft would shut a hell of a lot of people up, or at least make them think.

[NightWatcher]

5. thank you (and him). Where do combat vets stand on war?

I think most are against it.
I left military intel in early 02 when I realized that there wasnt any (intel, that is) and that we were planning on war regardless of the justification or reason. we wanted to get in there before shrub took office and he was getting in no matter what he had to do.

[bertman]

96. This Vietnam combat vet is TOTALLY OPPOSED TO THIS WAR.

President Obama's speech last night has shaken my belief in his ability to stand up to the military. That was my biggest fear when I voted for Obama. I see it all the time that men especially who have not been in the military have this overwhelming deference to those who have. It is misplaced. Respect is certainly due for vets and for currently-serving military folks, but the generals and admirals and their staffs are human beings who have prejudices and make mistakes just like the rest of us. Given the history of the bunch who are currently calling the shots in Iraq and Afghanistan I have no hope for anything other than more carnage, more destroyed lives of Americans and mostly Afghanis, and more looting of our treasury.

Thank you, Political Heretic and thanks to your dad for saying what I feel and for saying it so perfectly.

Our nation is so shielded from the destruction and horror of war that we have lost all ability to see what war really is.

Recommend.

[The Wizard]

132. Since the Department of War

became the Department of Defense we've been on a permanent war footing. It's always about the money. Follow the money.
We have no idea what the military industrial complex does to cause presidents to engage in international conflicts.
Of course with the Bush cartel the war profiteering was so blatant it was obvious they were treasury looting.
After spending more than the rest of the world on defense, a cave dweller and 19 guys with box cutters brought us to our knees. We're getting robbed.

[paparush]

142. Re: We have no idea what the military industrial complex does to cause..

If we look at JFK, who refused to follow the military into the Bay of Pigs and who, as I understand, was planning to scale down our involvement in Vietnam, we see very clearly what can happen when Presidents buck the military. And JFK was a war vet.

[bertman]

164. Exactly right, paparush.

[bertman]

165. We are on a permanent war footing because it drives profits for everyone from GE to

the folks who make our military uniforms and badges (if they aren't made in China I'd be surprised) AND it is the sword that allows the Big Boys like Big Oil and the other Natural Resource Extraction contractors to steal with impunity from every nation that is plunderable. Our military is just the enforcement arm of Big Bidness. The excuses of "bringing democracy to Iraq" or "rooting out the terrorists in Afghanistan" are simply the carefully crafted marketing/propaganda devices that they use to "sell" these abominations to us Americans.

The "cave dweller and 19 guys with box cutters" bringing us to our knees was another whopper that the propagandists passed off on the gullible public. The FBI and the CIA knew about those guys but, for some reason, didn't coordinate their efforts to find them. And then there are the hundreds of bullshit "coincidental failures" of our security systems that all occurred on Sept 11 so those clumsy efforts could succeed.

9-11 was THE blatant and well-planned effort to get us geared up for another decade or two of military incursions that would generate TRILLIONS of dollars for the War Profiteers and their cronies.

Indeed, we are getting robbed.

[Raster]

167. This is the post I want to recommend a thousand times over today!

[apacherose]

183. oh the irony...

"We are on a permanent war footing because it drives profits for everyone from GE to the folks who make our military uniforms and badges"

Wanted to reply to this..interestingly enough, the vast majority of all military uniforms, boots, canteens, helmets, ammo belts, etc. are built right here on US soil, in privately owned prisons! We build our war accessories to bring Democracy and Freedom to the world using our own slave labor..very ironic.

[Raster]

198. Welcome apacherose. Yes, the irony is appalling. Just as war has become BIG business in the US,

...so have prisons. Just as the war industry needs conflict to thrive, the prisons need a judicial system weighted towards findings of guilt, especially those findings which are in proportion to wealth, race and status or lack thereof.

[truedelphi]

204. Thank you for your servce, both when you wore the uniform and

Now.

And the "Now" might be more important.

Thanks for stating this so clearly. You have to wonder at the end of the day, if the main reason this country is so gung ho HAPPY about war is that we haven't had much of it on our shores (Except for Pearl Harbor, and for the events of Cheney led 9/11)

Again, thanks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

185. My hubby is against it

I am against it...

We need a damn draft!

If this is as critical as they say...all right then, draft, tax, full war footing.

[Raster]

199. I could not agree more. If the United States is going to immerse itself deeper in the Middle East,

it's time for everyone and EVERYTHING to support the effort without exception. It's time for windfall profits tax on the munitions industries, and as you mentioned, a deferment-proof draft. No exceptions and no cherry-picked assignments. Everyone's kids--from the janitor's boy to the CEO of Exxon's daughter--enter into the system, and let the IEDs detonate where they may. I guarantee that if everyone's kids had the same odds of getting blown to bits, less kids would be blown to bits.

[kiva]

6. Please thank your dad for his message...

and give him a hug.

[theoldman]

7. I have met many men like your dad.

Say hello for me.

[eleny]

8. Thank you, PH's dad and you too, PH

I feel that my resolve is even stronger now. This escalation with it's multiple tours of duty and death is wrong.

K&R :hug:

[peacebird]

9. Love your dads message! He has wisdom born of experience.

Thank him for sharing!
:hug:

[immoderate]

10. Appreciated.

--imm

[barbtries]

11. i can honestly respond to your father

that in this respect at least i am not a hypocrite. though my son served in the navy (he was in boot camp when bush invaded iraq), he enlisted in spite of my misgivings, and there was nothing i could do to stop him. i have a 17-year-old and he will NOT serve if i have anything to say about it. not until this country stops stupid wars of aggression. i've been against both of the wars since before they began.

[AllentownJake]

12. My father never left that place fully mentally

tell your father thanks.

[reggie the dog]

180. mine neither

now more kids will never be leaving Afghanistan either physically or mentally.

[Zodiak]

13. I have never served

My dad did, nearly 20 years in the Air Force.

Whenever talk of war comes up, I ALWAYS think of it in terms of being there myself. Perhaps seeing some of those war movies helped me visualize such a thing...but the movies that stuck with me were not Ben Afleck or Rambo stuff. It was Hamburger Hill and Private Ryan that stuck with me.

War is senseless, random, destructive, frightening, and dehumanizing. One only needs to have an imagination as to what humans would do to another when it was okay to call them "enemy" to know that war is something only engaged in when it is a matter of absolute necessity, like being invaded.

Strange also how many Americans never imagine war from the perspective of the invaded, either. So many of us have a "Red Dawn" mentality about being invaded, so why can we not imagine other people feeling the same way when foreign invaders come to their land?

[Fire1]

62. My husband says Hambuger hill is the closest to reality of any

war movie he's ever seen.

[NYC_SKP]

14. Please thank your dad for his service to our country.

If I had the chance to answer his last question, I'd point out that not all of us were called to service, or were of enlistment age during any conflict, and do not have children.

And I'd ask him if he thinks our POV is therefore less valid, or if we should, perhaps, just shut up.

Nonetheless, please thank him. A civilian in Northern California thanks him for his service.

:patriot:

[DemBones DemBones]

35. What did you mean by "not all of us were called to service"?

Since everyone is of enlistment age at some point, you *could* have served, whether you're male or female, whether there was a "conflict" (war) at the time or not.

It seems you're saying you did not serve because you weren't drafted, which is a little like Cheney saying he "had other priorities" during the Vietnam era. Don't get me wrong. A lot of us never served in the military. It went out of style once the escalation in Vietnam began.

But if a guy who was drafted and saw combat wants to call all of us hypocrites, I think he has the right to do so, particularly if we have supported any of these wars.

[NYC_SKP]

55. If I turned 18 in 1975 and was interested in other things like architecture, and there wasn't a war.

Then there's what I think would be fair to call "an absence of calling", or reasons to enlist.

FWIW, I support the Swiss and Israeli model for mandatory service, or some form of it for America.

I think it would make an enormous difference in how much we participate in our democracy and the way we would vote.

:thumbsup:

[DemBones DemBones]

66. The US military still needed enlistees. A case

could be made that we're all hypocrites if we didn't try to enlist.

[NYC_SKP]

73. That's a fact. Now we can reach back into one another's teens and call em out.

Of course I don't think that would be productive at all.

:P

There are a million ways to serve, including thanking soldiers and vets for their service, and defending them when necessary, without actually enlisting.

[roguevalley]

118. I was going to enlist in the navy but then I heard about the shots you

had to have. Seriously. I am super phobic about needles. SIGH! My dad would have dug it if I had gone.

[NYC_SKP]

214. Life's too short. I wish I could do it all over again.

Makes me want to believe in reincarnation, so I can have another go at it!

Cute puppy, by the way.

:hi:

[Bluenorthwest]

69. You had other priorities

It is exactly what Cheney said. Peace time is no reason not to serve, unless you wish to serve only to kill. We keep a standing army. Standing. As in ready to go if needed.
How did the architecture work out for you, having had priority in your life? Which buildings that I would know are yours?

[NYC_SKP]

74. I had a hand in the San Antonio Botanical Center...

But was busy with furniture design, products, etc., until shifting into education.

I did a few nice projects, too, in Rhode Island and upstate NY.

It's kind of you to ask.

SABC:

[roguevalley]

119. wow. that is awesome.

[NYC_SKP]

126. Thanks!

Very much!

:thumbsup:

[reggie the dog]

181. I have no desire whatsoever to be used as cannon fodder

but I am anti war so it is logical.

[John Q. Citizen]

102. You can still enlist. There are people older than you serving right now. You could

go as a civilian contractor.

You could go and help out.

Where there's a will, there's a way, after all. And I know you support this war that Obama supports. So why not actually get involved instead of staying home and letting other people do the lifting?

By the way, I've also long supported the notion of national service and not just military service but a whole range of participation.

I'm sure the Afghans need people to help design buildings. Why not offer your services on the ground over there?

[NYC_SKP]

127. I'm gonna consider it. Thanks. n/t

[Luminous Animal]

134. I have a friend, in his 40s, who put his money where his mouth is.

He got tired of arguing with the anti-war crowd and lived up to his convictions by joining the reserves.

I was the first person to call him an asshole.

I doubt very much that you'd do it let alone consider it. But, if you do join up, let me be the first to call you an asshole.

[NYC_SKP]

143. I doubt they'd have me!

But, as it's always been something I've wondered about, is there a role a 53 y.o. can play to help service members, I think I'll drop by the federal building next week.

I'm not likely to leave for afghanistan unless my 83 y.o. parents die real soon.
I'm all they have, and they're both now in wheelchairs trying to live in their original home across town.

:donut:

[PavePusher]

173. So, a person makes the decision to actually live by their principles...

and you call them an asshole.

Very Progressive of you.

I offer you an invitation to the world.

[Luminous Animal]

213. I would suppose that the Pope lives by his principles.

That doesn't make him any less of an asshole.
It is my opinion that the military and the militarization of the U.S. culture breeds assholes who buy into the American myth of God, Country, and Apple Pie.

[Skittles]

152. I enlisted in 1975 when I was 18

[Alcibiades]

90. Some of us did disqualifyingly large amounts of drugs

[roguevalley]

117. you could enlist. half my family did. only a couple were drafted. you

don't have to be called to go. Your POV is valid but less valid in the eyes of those who served if there is nothing that you are going to lose because of it. Just saying.

[dana_b]

15. your dad should know and

he sounds like a very smart man.

[sarge43]

16. A hand salute for your dad.

Even if we're out of that hell hole in a couple of years and even if we "win", the cost will be high and for many, too high.

I don't think it's worth it.

[lunatica]

17. Give your dad a great big hug for me

And tell him some of us don't have to be in a war to be against war. And then give him my heartfelt thanks for serving.

:patriot:

And for speaking out like true patriot do.

[G_j]

18. +1000!

you are right, people just don't understand that hese terrible experiences ripple through generations.
The wounds are so deep, there is no doubt people will still be suffering from them 30 and 40 years from now.

thank you

[roguevalley]

120. my uncle was among the marines abandoned on Guadalcanal. He

never spoke of that horror. But he did enjoy Baa, Baa, Black Sheep on tv and said, "That's just how it was." :)
RIP, Pappy Boynton. You too, John William Paxton.

[omega minimo]

19. He's correct and this is why the call for the draft has begun. No, hypocrites don't care.

[Why Syzygy]

24. +1

[nicky187]

208. Re-establish the Draft.

If _everyone_ has an equal chance at being called, including
those at the high end of the income scale, you'll see this
thing come to a screeching halt.

Time to share the pain. That distribution has been skewed for
far too long. No more all-volunteer military, except for the
Marine Corps, which has that tradition.

Too bad that as an added touch, we couldn't put those elected
to public office in the pool too.

[malaise]

20. Tell your dad I send him a big time

hug. :grouphug:
One of my nephews went to Iraq - it changed him for life.

sp.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tekisui]

32. They are getting recruited. The body of the post is the same.

Why would you call his dad that?

[AllentownJake]

34. Because Hero Worship is only meant for political leaders nt

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AllentownJake]

37. So sad

So sad indeed to see you trashing the fighting men and women who gave all for this country.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

38. Fighting "for this country"

... is no defense for anything.

[AllentownJake]

39. Why do you hate Veterans nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. Same reason you beat your wife.

[AllentownJake]

44. I'm not married nt.

[dionysus]

145. increadibly weak jake. the shit reads like badly written fiction.

do you believe everything you read on the internet?

[PavePusher]

174. You're right. They died for YOU.

Because, if you didn't want them to die, you'd have done your job better and kept them from being sent to where they would die.

[DemBones DemBones]

42. We have an economic draft now. The

economy is poor so kids with no prospects for college or going into the family business are doing what such kids have always done: enlisting in the military.

Nobody in their teens or twenties believes they'll die, so they enlist expecting to come back home alive and in one piece, with a skill plus the GI Bill, and go on with their lives. Sometimes it works out that way.

[Dragonfli]

63. I expect you will be signing up tommorow then!

To fulfill the glory and death of of your chosen prophet! (or is it profit?)

If you are lucky you will have the chance to kill many men, maybe even a child or two!

I agree with the old man.
no skin in the game = chicken hawk.

I realize you have such faith in the rightness of killing and dying in a country so far away (and yet so dangerous to us somehow) that you are no chicken hawk!

After all if we don't, they will surely invade us any day now.

Thank you for your decision to put your skin where your mouth is. I am sure you will save my life by killing poor brown people.

I am not worthy.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ShamelessHussy]

88. and that has what to do with wednesday in december?

Just because they knew there was a war on means, what?

that they get no sympathy from you?

that we (as a nation) should ignore their plight?

that we should ignore wether or not we are doing any good with THEIR sacrifices?

that even though signing up was for many their ONLY option for employment, training, housing, and the HOPE of a better life, should be discounted and/or discarded because 'they knew there was a war in Afghanistan when they did so'?

if not, then what, in the whole wide world is YOUR freaking 'point'?

[Political Heretic]

45. I saw the deleted post. Wish it would have stayed up frankly.

Says VOLUMES more about the poster than it does about my Dad. :)

[Why Syzygy]

48. Since the poster is

on my Ignore list, it says someone who practices habitual rudeness is involved.

I'm glad your dad said this. I've been saying the same thing as someone who saw the tragedy of VN from the civilian side.

[omega minimo]

60. +1

and still doin' it apparently.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ignis]

92. Winning hearts and minds.

;)

[G_j]

125. the deletion saved

what should have been a shameful embarrassment to the poster.
But that particular entity seems to take pride in such things.

[the blues]

22. That is an awesome post.

Many thanks to your dad for cutting through all the bullshit. We're talking about sending people over there, not pawns.

[Greyhound]

23. Absolutely right.

My Granddad (38 years in through WWII, Korea, and Vietnam) was found of saying, "the casualty rate in every war is 100%". Most live through it, but no one ever survives it.
:kick: & R

[valerief]

25. Your father is so right. I read where someone called us War Slaves.

That's what we are.

War is scam on the common man. Training is done early via sports (us against them! rah, rah, rah!) and accelerated with violent video games. Propaganda works. War pays (for the wealthy). And war kills, maims, and ruins lives, the planet, hope--always!

There is no good war. All wars suck for the common man.

[thegoodfight]

114. Video games cannot be blamed for creating pro-war nutters

I play video games (ironic it has terrorist vs. counter-terrorist models) all the time and it hasn't had a negative impact on me whatsoever. I absolutely abhor war. Only those who are damaged, whether they play these games or not, will support this war regardless. The responsibility lies with them...but I do admit some video games do exploit the vulnerable.

[juno jones]

195. The local christian camp

has a full-on military-style training and obstacle course on their grounds.

Gave me a bit of a shudder when I came across it whilst porcini hunting a few autumns ago.

It IS systemic and it IS generational. Some kids are indoctrinated from the beginning that war and agression are the only way.

[glitch]

26. Thank you both. nt

[laughingliberal]

27. I thank your father for his service. My husband is also a 62 yo Viet Nam vet

[elleng]

28. Hugs to your Dad, a member of MY generation.

:hug: :hug: :hug:

[fascisthunter]

29. Awesome!

This is what I was told growing up... and maybe it's because my family was almost decimated from war that I get to see and realize it's long term effects on family friends and sometimes strangers. I trust those who told me this growing up... it actually killed the GI Joe in me...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

30. Superb. K&R

[DKRC]

31. K&R nt

[tekisui]

33. knr.

[Matariki]

41. "everyone is deciding what they think about war based on whether its supporting the president"

That's what I see going on around here, yes.

And anyone who disagrees is being called 'childish' or 'having a temper tantrum in the corner'.

I hardly recognize the place.

[Why Syzygy]

51. Or "muck". Inhuman.

It is a very shallow and self absorbed personality who cannot separate President Obama from the reality of a horrific WAR.

[Vidar]

43. Recommended with a large thank you to you & your dad.

[Tashca]

46. Reminds me of my father

Many of the things you write I heard from my father over the years.

He is a Korean War vet. Had a major stroke a few years ago and can barely speak now.

Reading this made me think of my discussions with him....the few times he would talk about it. Especially the part about....they don't have a clue of what war is actually like.

Thanks to your father.....

[phasma ex machina]

47. K&R

[hfojvt]

49. those are some pretty sad talking points

should I start at the end?

1) apparently anybody who has not been in the military or has a child or sibling in the military does not deserve any respect.

2) you apparently cannot prove your point without calling people names if they disagree with you

3) some of the argument is old (there's no longer a draft) and never really was completely true (George H.W. Bush was a WWII vet and John Kerry went to Vietnam for examples)

4) many of us have not flipped. Myself, I was not against the war in Afghanistan the same way I was against the war in Iraq. So it's not like I am flipping on the issue because Obama is supporting it

5) Even with the Iraq war it seems much more complicated to me than "just bring the troops home". That does not seem as clearly good as "Don't invade Iraq". The same certainly seems true of Afghanistan.

[poverlay]

162. I second that and would like to add that I also abhor war, but I understand that things are never

simple. As much as I would like to oppose every war, I believe that it is, sometimes, necessary. The decision should be made so as to save as much life as possible, and everything else be damned.

[mdmc]

50. --

[eqfan592]

52. Please point to somebody around here who is "happy" about this war, or it's escalation.

Supporting it and being happy for it are two different things entirely.

I respect and appreciate your father for his service, but I don't agree with his viewpoint, nor does MY father, who is also a Vietnam vet, and who carries his own scars. He feels that it's worth while to try and put an end to the Taliban once and for all, and that it will lead to a more stable nation in the future, which will equate to a safer US and world in general. I tend to agree with him. Others here disagree, and many of them raise valid points in doing so. Still others disagree, and feel the best way to vocalize it is to demonize their fellow DU'ers as "warmongers." It's the latter category that I take issue with the most.

I will say this, though. War is not something that should ever be taken lightly, and there are those that do so. It means death and destruction and horrors beyond most peoples worst nightmare (something both our fathers are keenly aware of), so if you are going to support it's waging, you better be damned sure that you think it's worth it. Some do, some don't. Each have their reasons, and each have to live with those.

[Dragonfli]

71. I believe you do not understand the Taliban

Saying that you think it is possible to finally put an end to the Taliban is like saying, "we will finally put an end to fundamentalist Christians". How to you end a faith however misguided that is ingrained in a culture? Kill them all? Kill all the Fundies?

Also, why is it so important to you that our young men should die and our nations resources be wasted so that some OTHER NATION that can not invade us may be "more stable" in your opinion. Are we the rulers of the world? should we remake all nations to OUR liking? I support hunting Bin Laden, I thought that was the purpose behind that war, now it seems the goal is nation building in a country that has really never lost an insurgent war.

Why must we be invaders seeking to kill all Taliban in a country so far away, can we kill our villains here instead? Or can we instead realize that you can't just going around killing people unless it is in self-defense. Preemptive self defense doesn't count, you can't go around killing people that drive your paranoid delusions, delusions that could actually be incorrect or even "made up".

What drives hawks to believe killing is always the answer? Besides money of course, there seems to be a lot of that being made off these wars, my personal guess would be that that is usually the real goal to wars that have no stable provable self defense aspect to them. The rationale changes too much and would seem to me to be more like a shopping list of excuses to drive the war money making machine. Or perhaps you are right, by killing people they will decide that they were wrong all along about there extreme religious beliefs and now they will become nice buddhists because we killed there friends and family, (i think it is a long shot but perhaps you are correct.)

[roguevalley]

121. actually, you can put an end to the Taliban. Give people a job, feed

them. The cong won by putting food in people's bellies. Most of the dipshits out there killing people, Hamas, etc, have big programs of helping people out. These fuckers wouldn't have an argument if economics were even.

[bvar22]

157. It is the Taliban that is doing that now.

Feeding people

Providing social structure


The corrupt Mayor of Kabul that Obama endorsed and legitimized Tuesday abandonned the countryside to fend for themselves.

[Starry Messenger]

53. Give your sweet dad a hug from me.

:hug:

[Ruby the Liberal]

54. Thank you PH's Dad. Well stated.

My ex was a Vietnam vet. I couldn't agree more with what you have just said.

[GreenPartyVoter]

56. *hugs* to your dad from a mom who refuses to give her boys up to the war machine.

[trof]

57. He KNOWS.

damn
K&R

[jefferson_dem]

59. God Bless Your Dad...

I always learn from elders.

I guess it's easy to understand how one in his situation would be so cynical.

[Fire1]

61. Vietnam was a disgrace. n/t

[OneGrassRoot]

65. Please, what can we DO?

I don't see anyone at DU truly HAPPY about escalation. I do, however, know retired military who are happy about it...right-wingers though. Yes, they were in Viet Nam, as was my dad, who passed a few years ago. I'd like to think he would NOT be in favor of this.

Even if we DON'T know why we're there, why we're escalating, or if we DO think we know the evil truth of why we're there....can anyone please propose SOMETHING WE CAN ACTIVELY DO?

Is that what all this chaos is about? Is that why everyone's tearing one another to shreds, because we are afraid and angry and just don't know WHAT TO DO?

Lashing out at one another sure doesn't seem to be helping this. Are those who are eaten up with anger today toward Obama, do you want him impeached? Is that an active measure you'd like to undertake?

I really haven't noticed ANYONE being a cheerleading for war. Rather, I've noticed one side of the aisle trying to understand it, probably because they feel they don't know what to DO about it otherwise.

The other side is furious, probably because they don't know what to do otherwise.

95% of the posts in the last 24 hours serve no purpose whatsoever, just venting and anger and ripping other DUers to shreds.

WHAT. CAN. WE. DO.???

[KoKo]

67. I hope this makes it to "Greatist Page.." Thanks for sharing...n/t

[emilyg]

68. Hi Dad. Hug.

[gleaner]

70. Your Dad is an ..

eloquent man. Tell him for me, that I oppose this war. I always did, but that I thought John McCain would have made a much greater war than Obama. I do not support what Obama is doing. Nothing will change that. I do hate the thought of our soldiers and people in occupied countries suffering and dying. Nothing makes that acceptable or right.

I have tried in my life and will keep trying to change the fact that the US seems to see war as a first resort instead of a last resort.

In the meantime take good care of your Dad. He is a wonderful man and I will think of his words often.

[Texasgal]

72. Thanks PH...

And thank your father for participating, seems we could all learn a thing or two from him.

[1620rock]

76. God bless your dad....a brother in arms circa. Vietnam.

[PuraVidaDreamin]

75. Make sure your dad know that some of us are still going to hold our leaders accountable

at PeaceoftheAction.org

[TK421]

77. Your Dad sounds like one hell of a guy....by your posts, I admire him

tell him I said hello and thank you, could you? and all I want is our soldiers to defend this country and not fight in bullshit wars? Thanks

[Blue_In_AK]

78. Would you please tell your dad

for me personally if my protests against the Vietnam War back in those days hurt him in any way, I am deeply sorry. My opinion of that war hasn't changed, and I'm not sorry I took to the streets to oppose it, but I have felt some guilt over the years for not necessarily separating the soldiers from the war. It's a mistake I've tried not to make this time around.

[Political Heretic]

82. Wow, what a wonderful thing to say.

I will tell him. :hug:

He looks back at that war with great sadness, but it was hard for him to come home and be shunned.

I asked him once if he got spit on and some of the stories I heard, and he said no - he lived an a pretty rural community, but it was that no one would talk to him about it. It was like it didn't happen, or that he people felt ashamed of him or something. Certainly there was no big welcome home for the brave solider type thing... just a lot of silence and bad stares.

I know that bothers him, and I think what you had to say was really kind and thoughtful. :)

[stevedeshazer]

79. You've got a sensible dad there.

+100

[Individualist]

80. Thanks and hugs to your dad from a VA retiree who has seen the horrible results of war.

[Fly by night]

81. Please give your Dad a hug for me (because I can no longer hug mine.)

My Dad served in WWII (Philippines) as a teenager and carried the emotional scars to his dying day at age 73. He told us many stories of what war was like. But he never told us that, as a machine-gunner in the infantry, it was his "duty" to line up Japanese soldiers who had surrendered and execute them to save his commander from having to be bothered with prisoners. Then my Dad had to go collect all the papers from the young Japanese he had executed. Most of them carried pictures of their families, their friends, their loved ones -- just like my Dad did.

I was told this story by my Dad's best friend, but only after Dad had died. What horrible guilt that must have been to carry around for the rest of his life the senseless execution of 84 Japanese young men who made the mistake of surrendering to Americans -- or at least to my Dad's troop. Makes Dad's alcoholism, and the irrational anger it always induced, easy to understand.

The last day he was on this earth, my Dad hallucinated that he was on the troop train heading home after the war. It's a shame he really never got to come home, that a huge part of his heart and soul was left bleeding on our own "killing fields."

I wonder if it feels the same when today's soldiers sit stateside in their air-conditioned cubicles, in front of high-tech monitors, and unleash predator drones on whole Afghan families in order to eliminate one suspected Taliban. My guess is -- not.

So hug your Dad again for me and thank him for his service. I sure as hell miss mine.

Wars should be fought by the arrogant men (and women) who start them.

[dgibby]

156. Your dad and my oldest brother

had very similar experiences. My brother was stationed on Saipan as a teen. His job was to bury the enemy dead in long trenches. He never got over it, and he, too, became an alcoholic. So sad.

[Subdivisions]

83. Hi PH's dad. I'm honored to meet you. Thank you for your thoughts. n/t

[varelse]

84. K&R

[Techn0Girl]

85. Props to your Dad!

From one Vet to another

[struggle4progress]

86. My cousin went to the Southeast Asia wars. He came back undamaged physically but

in another way he never recovered. He's really a great guy -- but it injured him in many ways

Johnny Has Gone For A Soldier
http://video.yahoo.com/watch/2024955/v2148106

And the band played Waltzing Mathilda
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPFjToKuZQM

I aint marching anymore
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5pgrKSwFJE

[TexasObserver]

87. I agree with him.

I served 1968-1972, with 1970-71 in SEA.

When I hear the same old tired lines as they told back then, but with terrorists instead of commies, it makes me want to cry. The wasted lives, the pain and permanent injuries over nothing but power, greed, pride and political expediency.

I am duty bound to speak out, to lobby against war, and to speak for those who are dead or incapacitated. They were sold a line of bullshit, and they gave it all because of it.

[waiting for hope]

89. Your Dad is a treasure.....

Give him a hug for me PH - and one for you too... :hug:

K&R

[MissDeeds]

91. Powerful post

Wish this could be read by those who make the decisions to send others to war. Something tells me it wouldn't make any difference.

Give your dad a hug and tell him his service and sacrifice is appreciated. :hug:

[grantcart]

93. All good points Dad -- make the chicken hawks sign up their kids first.

[DesertRat]

94. k&r for your Dad

:thumbsup:

[OhioBlue]

95. Please tell your dad

thank you for his service and his insight. We could all benefit from his thoughts and advice.

I would also like to explain my position. I agree with him so much on the horrible effects of war. When we went into Iraq, I entered a Depression, I feared so much for my brother and his friend that wanted to enlist. I still fear for the well being of many young friends and family members that did enlist and served. I hate war and I hate what it does to people.

However, I did not oppose the Iraq "surge" as most Dems seemed to. I saw a horrible war that shouldn't have been waged spiraling into chaos, likely civil war and utter destruction and death for so many living there. A change in strategy was needed, and I was willing to give the Administration, even the Bush Admin that moment to make their case for a better strategy than the one they were following previously.

I am also not opposing President Obama's decision to send more troops to Afghanistan. He was handed a war that was neglected for years. From what I read, the Country is not in good shape and I fear if we pull out immediately, the consequences could be awful. I don't pretend to know the solutions. It is a gawd awful situation, a horrible situation.

My heart aches for the soldiers and their families. My heart also aches for the civilians in Afghanistan. I don't want one more person hurt or injured, but I know they will be no matter what the President does. I want him to take in all the information, advice and counsel that he can and try to reach the best decision possible to lead to some type of Peace.

I am not hawkish by any means. I hate war. I want it to end. I also don't want to see a Country abandoned and spiral into a Darfur. I just don't know enough to know what would happen if we stay the course or leave. I've read a lot - but am no expert and can't pretend to know the right course of action. I am going to give our President the benefit of the doubt that he has read the intel, sought the advice of experts and made the best decision that he can see for the future.

The critics might be right - I'll admit that - this could be a bad decision. I hope not. I hope it is the best one, leads to stabilization and a troop withdraw.

[Political Heretic]

99. Thanks for the thoughful post. I appreciate it.

And I know he will too :)

[Hatchling]

97. *tears*

[handmade34]

98. Thank you for your service (Political Heretic Dad)

I am not a veteran but am the daughter and granddaughter of vets and have lived with a couple of them. I hear what you're saying! My husband(deceased)used to wake from horrific nightmares about combat and my current partner, a medic in Vietnam, has many stories...

I support a draft(no exemptions) and a heavy tax to pay for wars (if we insist that they are necessary)

thank you for speaking up

[No Passaran]

100. Thank you

From a disabled veteran of OIF. I guess now every generation has one

[winyanstaz]

101. k & R....your dad sounds a lot like my dear departed husband...

who served two terms in Nam.
It is true too. It is those that dont have to serve or who dont have a kid or a loved one over there that are hooting the loudest for war.
I agree...draft their asses and send these war mongers to the front lines.

[rtassi]

103. K&R

[MrMickeysMom]

104. Fortunate son...

Some folks inherit star spangled eyes,
Ooh, they send you down to war, Lord.
and when you ask them, "How much should we give?"
Ooh, they only answer More! more! more! yoh,

It ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no military son, son.
It ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no fortunate one, one.

CCR

[dlfuller]

105. damn straight

[David Zephyr]

106. K&R. No. 162!

Thanks.

[ShortnFiery]

107. "Why can't people think about it from the view of the kids that will die?"

I don't know either. I know people who will be going back to the ME for their 3rd and 4th tours.

It seems, to me, IF people don't PERSONALLY pay "a price" and/or are close to a service member NOW, then it's not much more important than a reality TV show.

I don't understand this either.

However, this fellow veteran honors both your service and your excellent commentary. :patriot:

[roguevalley]

122. we're all going to pay a price. some of those poor kids are coming

back cocked guns.

[enigmatic]

108. great post

Thanks to both of you for this.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

109. The most eloquent and smart post I have read about Obama's war on DU

thank your father for his service and his wisdom.

[Thor_MN]

110. Thank you to your dad and you.

An author (and vet) that I have always enjoyed since childhood once proposed that the only people that should be allowed to vote to declare war should be people eligible to serve in the military. A "yes" vote doubled as your enlistment papers, not voting put you in the second call, and a no vote put you in the third call. Has always seemed reasonable to me, with the exception of the country being attacked allows the president to bypass the vote process. It should not be easy to declare war and those that are going to have to fight it should have a say.

[DesertDiamond]

111. oh thank you thank you thank you !!!!!! i cannot tell you how angry it makes me feel

to hear people cheerfully saying, "Well, if Obama wants it he must have good reasons. We'll just have to make the sacrifice." EXCUSE ME???????? What are YOU sacrificing????? You have NO IDEA what it feels like to have a loved on who is being sent there to risk being maimed or dead -- FOR WHAT??? Our security???? HELL NO!!!! If you think this escalation is an acceptable idea, if you think anything short of immediate withdrawal of all of our troops is an okay idea, YOU GO THERE!!! YOU send YOUR LOVED ONES there!!!! As for me, right now my life feels like a nightmare.

[DesertDiamond]

112. and having finished my rant, I want to say again, thank you!!! Big hug to you and your dad!!!

[Iwillnevergiveup]

113. Thank you for this post

May I call you Political Heretic Sr. and Jr.?

Most eloquent, stirring words, and I celebrate the obvious closeness and respect you have for each other. It was an honor to hear from you both.

:patriot: :hug:

[Libertas1776]

115. I'd love to shake your father's hand.

All of us should take heed of this wise man's words. :patriot:

[roguevalley]

116. your dad is awesome. I always felt that anyone starting a war had

to supply sons and daughters for the front line. Hug your dad. He's a hero.

[niyad]

123. k and r and a big hug for your dad

[JDPriestly]

124. He has a good point. I believe that Biden's son served.

Obama's children are too young. Hillary Clinton's Chelsea is probably a bit old to enlist.

War is hell for those who fight it, but it is an even worse hell for the children who are caught in it -- who survive bombing raids, evacuations and refugee camps. The children in the country of the war suffer the most.

In Afghanistan, however, we are just one more army entering a war that has continued for many generations, fought in each generation by a different foreign army. So, in Afghanistan, we see adults who grew up as children in a country at war. And those adults are the children of other children who grew up knowing war first hand. How do you stop such a cycle?

We did stop the cycle of wars in western Europe. What can we learn from that experience? How can it be applied in Afghanistan? That is the question.

[B Calm]

128. Ditto to your dad. . . US Navy 69-73

[defendandprotect]

129. Agree with your Dad ... and I have no support for President Obama in this new escalation....

NOR any support for the Democrats -- Pelosi/Reid -- who have kept this war going since

'06 ... when they were beholden to the voters to END them!!

:)

[Zhade]

130. DAMN. STRAIGHT. Hypocrites indeed.

You know how you can find a fake "veteran" on any message board, this one included?

They want war to continue.

Chickenhawk liars.

[dbmk]

135. I don't think you can find many here that WANTS it to continue

You might be able to find a few that does not think an increase in troop commitment makes Obama a demon from the lowest rungs of hell.

Not the same thing though.

This is a strawman.

[Political Heretic]

139. That is irrelevant word parsing.

You either think it should continue, and thus "want" it to continue, or you don't.

[dbmk]

144. Has nothing to do with what I just said

There is no contradiction in being against an escalation in troop numbers and not thinking that Obama is Bush all over again for doing so.

Nothing hypocritical about it. And nothing hypocritical about thinking that it is ok for the President to send men and women where you would not send your own - as those men and women have volunteered for that - if he deems it necessary.

There is a gulf of difference between accepting the presidents decision and wanting him to make it.

[Political Heretic]

177. No, they didn't volunteer for that.

They didn't volunteer to be sent recklessly and irresponsibly to places they don't need to be.

And yes, there's absolutely something hypocritical about being hawkish without serving, "volunteers" or not.

Not to mention the fact that when the army is more proportionately comprised of men and women from all socioeconomic sectors, then I'll start listening to points about the fact that people "volunteer." But since it isn't and until it is, I'll keep accepting the reality of an economic class draft being one of the many ways that we reach our military quotas.

That point aside, just because people sign up to serve, does not mean they somehow sign away their right to have their deployment handled responsibility by people familiar with the human cost and personally connected to that cost. And it certainly does not mean the people defending their deployment, arguing for their deployment, and expecting their willingness to die and experience the pains of war that no chicken hawk ever understands should not be expected to actively participate in the cost of what they are supporting.

If you support war, then get behind it. If you want to promote war, go serve in it and put your family out there rather than cower and home and say "well they volunteered for it, but I'm going to tell them where to go die."

Either do that, accept the title chicken hawk.

"Chickenhawk" (also chicken hawk and chicken-hawk) is a political epithet used in the United States to criticize a politician, bureaucrat, or commentator who strongly supports a war or other military action, yet who actively avoided military service when of age.

The term is meant to indicate that the person in question is cowardly or hypocritical for personally avoiding combat in the past while advocating that others go to war in the present. Generally, the implication is that "chickenhawks" lack the experience, judgment, or moral standing to make decisions about going to war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chickenhawk_%28politics%29

[dbmk]

215. By that logic

I assume you a a member of the local:
Police.
Fire Dept.
Coast Guard (if applicable)

I mean, you cannot expect them to protect and serve you unless you are prepared to face the same dangers.

[Political Heretic]

217. These are false parities.

Police, Fire, Coast guard are not being ordered by the rich to go to foreign lands and engage in war.

I would not support the police department being sent to this war.

I would not support the fire department being sent to this war.

I would not support the coast guard being sent to this war.

[Daphne08]

131. My dad was a vet as well.

He served in WWII in the Pacific.

He never talked about his war experiences... only told us a few stories about boot camp or his time in Australia.

I do know one thing. He HATED war.

I miss him very much.

God Bless your sweet dad, Political Heretic.

[colorado_ufo]

133. God bless you, Dad -

and thank you for speaking out. And thank you for your service.

My father, long deceased, was a much decorated WWII soldier, including the Bronze Star and serveral Purple Hearts, who hated war and never spoke about his service. Most people had no idea of his many decorations until his obituary. My uncle died in the Battle of Tarawa (my grandmother never recovered from his death and the death of his younger brother, who drowned a few months later). My father's mother had five sons serving in WWII at the same time, in all braches of the service. My husband's father died in WWII - actually after the war was over, two weeks before he was due to come home - when the jeep that he was driving at night encountered an unmarked, blown out bridge. He was awarded a Silver Star for his bravery on D-Day and many, many other decorations. He is buried in Luxembourg.

My son is 35 and has not served but would serve, if called to do so. If he were drafted, his business would completely go under, and his new wife, stepdaughter, and soon-to-be-born first child would be on their own except for family support. My daughter could also be drafted, but my son-in-law would be exempt for medical reasons.

The draft is a terrible burden on families and should not be called unless there is an emergency. Those who advocate using it as some sort of political tool to strong-arm members of Congress to their way of thinking are not in touch with reality; those in Congress, the rich, and others of influence will always find ways to exempt their children.

[timtom]

136. As a Vietnam vet, myself,

I salute your Dad. I have educated my children well. They see through the lies and bullshit and are totally against such wars of agression.

And, whether or not your Dad was a Marine, Semper Fi.

[Major Hogwash]

137. Great post, PH.

It won't stop the military industrial complex from getting what they wanted, but at least you and your dad tried to stop this stupid insane escalation.

[Hubert Flottz]

138. I'm glad I served when my call came...

I went so that self aggrandizing "patriots" and war lovers like GI Joe Lieberman and whistling Dick Cheney wouldn't have to...

The well to do boys(NGs and ERs)went home after boot camp during the Vietnam Era, the poor ones stayed and did the dirty work.

The wealthy kids never did show up at all and they still haven't...but they always beat the war drum the loudest and the longest.(Dick Cheney is still beating the livin' hell out of the war drum and he turned down his chance to fight 5 times)

[Hepburn]

140. Excellent....

...hugs for you and Dad....:hug:

Yesterday, I got bullshit from another DUer for making the statement that if one supports the war, then volunteer and send your child.

I was told that was not a progressive statement. :puke:

WTF has happened to the left? I have been there since the 1960s when I first started protesting the VN war.

Where the fuck have all the flowers gone? Guess waaaaaaaaay to the right of me.

JMHO

[paparush]

141. My father was a Vietnam vet and he never came around like your dad did.

I remember in Gulf War I, he was glued to the TV, totally hardwired and hooked and had seriously guzzled the kook aid. It never made sense to me because he was one of those poor, white trash kids who got drafted to fight in 'Nam. He came home totally kooked and fought drug and alcohol addiction the rest of his life.

He died before the current Iraq/Afghanistan/Pakistan (insert next country here) debacle. I wonder if this current conflict would have shifted his opinion?

[Soylent Brice]

146. K&R

[Festivito]

147. Wars are lose-lose encounters, failure of minds over matters.

At end, one may lose more than the other, the other losing less, but each have failed to avoid these losses from the start.

You're lucky "the dad" and you did not lose your minds over these matters, as so many -- we have all failed -- have.

Thank you for opening your hearts to us.

Remain blessed in what binds you both, a small piece of which now blesses me.

[TomClash]

148. Your father speaks the truth eloquently

You should be proud.

I've seen what he's seen. It's what everyone should see.

[Freddie Stubbs]

149. BS. No one is getting drafted. We have an all volunteer military

[Political Heretic]

178. That's not the defense that you think it is. (Not to mention that we do have a draft)

Having an all volunteer military is irrelevant. Maybe those in the military are those that support escalating wars, I don't know.

What I do know, is those who that do support sending other people to do buy don't support sending themselves or their children, don't support the personal investment and personal sacrifice that they are completely comfortable with someone else making - that's pretty hypocritical and characteristic of what is politically termed a chickenhawk.

If what we're doing is so crucial, then prove it with your own actions. Pick up a gun, or send your son. Otherwise, its not really thatcrucial, is it? If you can't be bothered with it...


As far as the comment that we do have a draft - as soon as the makeup of the military proportionally represents a cross-section of all income brackets, then we'll talk. Until then, the reality of an economic draft remains, and is only made worse during deep recessionary periods, and we continue to be faced with the ugly true that people who won't serve themselves have no problem sending disproportionately underprivileged kids to die.

The rules make speeches and calculate political gains, the rich cut checks to the politcians and calculate the profit of their warmongering, and the limousine liberals blog and pontificate and the hawkish conservatives rave -

- and the one thing they all have in common is not giving a shit because it will be someone else's poor kid who dies, not their own.

[Freddie Stubbs]

189. That like saying you should be opposed to taking violent criminals off of the streets unless

you are willing to become a police office or a corrections officer.

And BTW, I enlisted in the USMC when I was 18 years old. I was given a medical discharge against my will before I completed boot camp due to a hearing deficiency in my left ear.

[Political Heretic]

192. Another false parity.

I also think the Minnesota Vikings should win the Superbowl, but I'm going to join the team.

In logic see, its insufficient to just find a similar alternative example. It must be equally paired.

There are places in the universe where you can support something you're not personally involved in.

War isn't one of them.

[Freddie Stubbs]

201. Nonsense. I supported President Obama's election last year

I am supporting President Obama's strategy in Afghanistan. I am getting my way. You are not.

[Political Heretic]

216. Reducing the deaths of our sons and daughters to "I'm getting my way, you aren't" says a lot.

Perhaps, you are supporting Obama's strategy in Afghanistan precisely because it doesn't affect you in any way.

"I support sending other people besides myself and my family to go die for our empire."

A very common refrain. Nothing new.

[Kingofalldems]

182. What a smart ass punk you are--

[Freddie Stubbs]

190. I just tell it like it is

[Political Heretic]

193. Not very well though - and only of "like it is" means something easily deconstructed.

:shrug:

[annm4peace]

150. as you know, Your father is not alone, Seek out Veterans for Peace

I marched yesterday in downtown Minneapolis,, my 8th year with out stopping, of protesting.

I'm wearing my Supporter of Vets for Peace t-shirt to work today.

Please have him or you call Veterans for Peace... they need you and him, and you and him need them.

I have repeatedly seen healing when Veterans come up to VFP and they shake hands, or hug.. and even before they speak. A heavy weight seems to come off their shoulder's.
I has been a WWII, Korean, DesertStorm, Viet.. or even those who served when there wasn't a major war.


http://www.veteransforpeace.org/about_vfp.vp.html

What is Veterans For Peace?

Veterans For Peace is a national organization founded in 1985. It is structured around a national office in Saint Louis, MO and comprised of members across the country organized in chapters or as at-large members. There is an annual convention each year attended by our members, families and supporters from across the nation. Members receive periodic VFP publications.
The organization includes men and women veterans of all eras and duty stations spanning the Spanish Civil War (1936-39), World War II, the Korean, Vietnam, Gulf and current Iraq wars as well as other conflicts. Our collective experience tells us wars are easy to start and hard to stop and that those hurt are often the innocent. Thus, other means of problem solving are necessary.

Veterans For Peace is an official Non-Governmental Organization (NGO) represented at the UN.

Whether or not you wish to participate in chapter activities, please consider becoming a Veterans For Peace member. As an organization, we are what our members make us. You can be part of that effort. Help us put an end to war.

We draw on our personal experiences and perspectives gained as veterans to raise public awareness of the true costs and consequences of militarism and war - and to seek peaceful, effective alternatives.

[Skittles]

151. your dad makes me swoon

what a man; he surely does get it :thumbsup:

[kag]

153. Powerful stuff

I'm probably one of the people your father is talking about, except that I am completely against this, or any other war that does not involve self defense. I'm afraid of the military; terrified that my kids might some day serve or HAVE to serve. I would never support sending our young people off to die in a war of choice like Afghanistan. And yes, my conscience bothers me. I wish I was more willing to serve my country...and I would be if it did not involve the possibility of all of the things your father described--death, horrors of war, disability, etc.

Your father is prescient. Sure gives me a lot to think about.

[dgibby]

154. Thanks to you and your dad.

As a retired Navy nurse, I understand and agree with him wholeheartedly. I wasn't in combat, but took care of those who were, and believe me when I tell you I am against war, especially preemptive wars of aggression.

As for service, there are many different ways to serve besides enlisting. This is what I posted yesterday on this subject:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7136443

Please consider volunteering to help our wounded troops, both active duty and vets. For them, the war is NEVER over. Thanks.

[bvar22]

155. Thank You, and special THANKS to your Dad.

:patriot:

K&R

[CrispyQ]

158. There are many truths in what your father says.

> Everyone's so happy to send other people to war.

> People have no idea, you know, they don't have a clue, not a clue, what war is actually like.

> It's this horror... its literally ruins lives, whether your live or die... you can't ever be the same again.


"War doesn't determine who's right, only who's left."

A big hug to your father.

[demigoddess]

159. my father fought WWII and Korea, my dad fought in Korea. I think that they

would be against this stupid war. Give your dad a big hug, because I can't they both died young because of their war experience.

[TatonkaJames]

160. Plato Quote

“It is only the dead who have seen the end of war”

[rasputin1952]

161. From one vet to another...

:patriot:

[Raster]

163. War is a good business. Invest a child today.

Especially if it's someone elses child.

The only way to end war, is TO END WAR. The corporate plutocracy -- especially the Military-Industrial Consortium and the Texas-American Petroleum Cartel -- have NO INTENTION of ending war(s). Peace is just not as profitable, at least to the war and weapons industries. The United States is the LARGEST maker and seller of munitions on the entire planet. The US defense budget --or at least the defense budget we know about--is bigger than the defense budgets of most of the other world countries put together.

[Javaman]

166. Your dad knows war first hand...

I have never served nor had any want to serve, yet, Ironically, I am a big WWI and WWII geek and I have read enough to know that I would never ever want to experience war first hand.

As smallpox is considered the worlds worst disease, war is the worlds worst tragedy.

Why anyone would be willing to send nameless faceless other peoples children, husbands, mothers, fathers, sons and daughters to fight for something they wouldn't do themselves, is beyond me.

Thank you to your dad and his service. Perhaps one day the memory of those horrible days will be gone and he can sleep in peace.

People need to listen to the vets. They know.

[Veruca Salt]

168. Because they don't know and don't get it and never will

until one of their own is in harms way.

It's not until then, when that person be it brother or sister, husband, wife, son or daughter is deployed to a war zone that one finds themselves praying to whatever higher power they believe it. Some people who left religion behind suddenly find it again because there's nothing worse than hanging that blue star in your window. You find you'd pray to any listening god to never make it a gold star.

There's the small things too for however long that person is deployed. The worst is the calls with them, because even if you weren't in the habit of telling them you loved them (as it was always implied) you now say it at the end of every call because it just might be the last time you get to tell them that.

I've never served, but my brother did and I hope he's never deployed again.

[BrklynLiberal]

169. `Thank you very much Political Heretic's Dad.

I have been very supportive of bringing back the draft..but we must draft Young Republicans first!!!

I still carry around Military Enlistment forms from the days when I was marching against the war...and I would hand them to the objectors who were "supporting" the war..but not in the military.

It would be very interesting to see how "popular" this was would remain if more Hawks had to see their own families being shipped off to Afghanistan, Pakistan or Iraq.

[Orsino]

170. People love violent movies, TV and video games without becoming actors.

When the victims aren't real to us, gung-ho is all too easy.

[nicky187]

209. Concur.

When you can displace all the harms for your decisions onto
people you don't know, it's too easy to make decisions that
are incorrect, or to do things that are unethical.

[midnight]

171. Hugs to your dad. He seems to have acquired all the wisdom a Harvard education lacks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnfPhM3WHTU&feature=player_embedded

Here is a video that your dad might want to view... It is short, but it does show some vets against the surge too.

[democrank]

172. A hug for your Dad. Bless him.

I marched against the war in Vietnam and have supported Veterans for Peace and other veterans ever since. The Vietnam War was an ugly thing, with blue collar soldiers fighting and dying while most well-connected young men got deferments. Men like Dick Cheney, who got five of them. Many of my friends were killed during that war and many of those who made it home will never be the same. They`re suffering to this day.

How sick to death I am of the Barco-Lounger generals like so many of the Republican war mongers. In the run-up to the invasion of Iraq we heard from these fools, remember? They were the flower petal guys, totally convinced we`d have Iraqis kissing our feet within days of the invasion. It didn`t matter to them that we knew NOTHING about the people, NOTHING about their culture. It was a sickening failure and we`ll be paying for it for a long, long time.

This isn`t an Obama popularity contest as far as I`m concerned. If I didn`t like the war(s) when AWOL Bush was in charge, I still don`t like the war(s) now that Obama owns them. My principles and positions don`t change depending on who the president is or what party has the majority.

We`ve killed and maimed enough people and too many of our own have paid a terrible price. Another few months or years might not mean much to those applauding this newest "surge" but to those who oppose it, it`s a heart-wrenching eternity.

[Lowell]

175. One Vet to Another I want to Say Welcome Home

Your Dad is absolutely right PH. I have held many of the same beliefs myself over the years.

He is also right in saying it ruins lives.

If you have never hugged the ground while the earth shook around you and debris and body parts rained down on you. . . If you've never smelled cordite and blood . . . If you've never faced another who is determined to end your life, then you don't know what war really is.

There is no excuse other than self defense for war. It is the greatest insult we can inflict on our Creator.

Again Welcome Home.
5th Mech Infantry RVN 1968-1969

[katsy]

176. I thank your dad for his service

and a k/r

To answer his question about hypocrites, no. It does not bother them. Nor do they value the lives of others.

[reggie the dog]

179. I have had similar conversations with my dad

who was also a vet in vietnam. He saw shit he cannot describe and still has nightmares too.....

[BeHereNow]

184. Put your Dad on youtube and we'll send it out EVERYWHERE!

WE need MORE voices who actually KNOW what they
are talking about.
Send his words to Iraq Veterans Against the War
and Vietnam Veterans Against the War!

I vote YOUR Dad as the official spokesman for sanity 2010.

BHN

[nadinbrzezinski]

186. Say hi to dad for us

[Paper Roses]

187. I lived through Korea and Vietnam. Please thank your Dad for me.

I was young when Korea was going on but I was a child of the 60's and saw the horror of the Vietnam war. Daily, nightly, in print, everywhere.

I lost a brother-in-law there, and another, a chopper pilot has been severely traumatized for years. He will not talk of the horror of seeing his buddies in pieces. He has nightmares still.

When will the idiot military finally decide that we do not need a war to live as humans. Protect our borders and help those at home. Lets not take it upon ourselves to police the world.

Buy, sell trade, peace, love and share our good fortune. Lets not blow our world citizens to smithereens in the name of that overused word, "Democracy". There is no rule or law that says everyone should govern the way we do, neither is there some degree that gives us the right to police others.

[tomg]

188. Thank you so much. Your dad

reminded me why I am a pacifist and a co first (he and I are close in age), a progressive leftist second, and a democrat third. I really appreciate your post and please thank your dad for me.

[Mithreal]

191. Kick & Rec. Thank you.

[juno jones]

194. K&R!

I learned a lot from the Vietnam vets I used to kick around with in the '70's and '80's.

I was against war then, and to see what it did to them, I came to be even more against it.

[donquijoterocket]

196. me too

As a Vietnam combat vet myself(2nd Bn. 12th Inf. Reg. 25th Inf. Div. RVN 1965-1966) I heartily second every last word.I'm sorry your father is disabled from that disaster,but pleased he's home alive.I'm sure he'd agree that a draft would put an end to the militaristic drift in this country in short order.I've opposed this particular misadventure from day one. If there's a country in this world that has proven itself hostile to occupiers it's Afghanistan. They've also proven themselves most capable of dealing with those they see as occupiers as I'm afraid we're about to learn. I'm mystified as to how a person so seemingly otherwise level-headed and well-considered could have been persuaded to deepen this quagmire.Only one thing's for certain and that is that President Obama will receive more pushback from his left that dubya ever did from his right. It remains to be seen how effective that will be but I know we cannot lessen the pressure.
My congratulations to your father, and my appreciation for his courage and yours.

[blueamy66]

197. You're Dad is a very smart man.

You should be proud to be a part of him.

[sellitman]

200. I was # 300 to K & R

Proudly.

Your Dad is a great American.

[KansasVoter]

202. Congrats to you and your dad! Where are the pro-war posts now???

[peacetalksforall]

203. That was a tear flowing post ..... because you're father flipped it around from

a soldier's point of view and it was so truth filled from the point of view of humanity.

War for profit is not humane. It's not just humane. The worst part of it is that the military brass still feeds off WWII to recruit soldiers. Patriotic duty is so ingrained that some people seem to be happy to lose their child.

Thanks for being there for your father, your lovely father with insight. Thanks for bringing him to us. Thank him for me.

I nominate him for the Advisory Board for our future Department of Peace. Maybe not under the Presidency of Obama if things stay the way they are. Some Day.

[truedelphi]

205. It's a bit redundant to add my thank you to the countless others.

But add my thanks I will.

thank him for me for his service to the nation, both when he wore the uniform and now. Right now. Today while he experssed what so many vets of Vietnam know in their bones.

[nicky187]

206. Your father and mine would probably like each other.

My father did his duty during WWII, just as your father did in
Vietnam. I served in the Navy and am glad that I did.

However, I do not want one more person going to Afghanistan,
Iraq, Pakistan, or any other place where we are conducting
hostilities.

Your father is right in his comments, and his reasoning. 

It is time for us to do things that would improve the quality
of life for our people, and for anyone else who we can help.
That would do more to end terrorism, conflict, etc., than
would military conflict.

It is time to stop interfering in others' internal politics,
and supporting corrupt regimes that "work" us for
their own benefit, while crushing their own people.

It is time to do things right, and to do the right things,
across the board. No more Halliburton/KBR. No more Blackwater.
No more war profiteering. No more blood money.

Encourage your Congressperson and Senator to cut funding for
the war. Keep the pressure up, until it happens. Challenge
corporate welfare. It's time to break the system down to its'
component parts, and rebuild them so that they serve the
people, and not make the people serve them.

Sorry to ramble. I hope this was reasonably clear.

[pleah]

207. K&R

:patriot:

[santamargarita]

210. Thanks to your dad from another Vietnam Vet

:patriot:

[bkkyosemite]

211. Tell your dad... or just let me. I am 63 and agree with you dad 100%..stay well and thank you for

your thoughts and your courage which are greatly appreciated and you are very much cared about and loved for your sacrafice.:patriot:

[burrfoot]

212. Incredible Post. K&R. Many thanks to your father. (n/t)

:patriot: