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PHIMG Donating Member (814 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 10:34 PM
Original message
The doctors say "start over" with Medicare For All
The doctors of PNHP say this bill is garbage. Here's why:


PNHP Talking points on the Mandate Plans

• The plan is completely inadequate in expanding coverage and
controlling costs. It is essentially an insurance industry bailout. Most
provisions to expand coverage don't even go into effect until 2013, after
which it still leaves at least 17 million Americans uninsured.
• The insurance industry hijacked the process: Private insurers get
millions of mandatory new customers and about $600 billion in taxpayer
subsidies. This will have the effect of making the health insurance lobby
even more powerful, and more able to hijack political processes in the
future.
• It forgoes over $400 billion annually in potential savings on overhead
and bureaucracy in the health system - enough to cover all 47 million
uninsured - by retaining profit-driven private health insurers instead of
replacing them with a streamlined, more efficient, Medicare for All
system.
• It makes private health insurance mandatory for middle-income working
people, forcing them to buy a defective product. It will become a federal
crime to be uninsured, with a penalty of 2.5 percent of income, starting
in 2013. Families of very modest means, at 200-400 percent of poverty,
will be required to spend an unaffordable 8-12 percent of their incomes
on insurance premiums if they don't have employer-sponsored coverage.
Since the plan institutionalizes different levels of benefits and allows for
skimpy plans (e.g. "bronze"), the mandated insurance may not even
cover their health needs.
• We will have a nation of underinsured families and businesses who will
be paying money they can hardly afford for health plans that will never
meet their needs. Globally, the U.S. economy will continue to be at a
competitive disadvantage.
• A Medicaid expansion will cover more low-income Americans, but
coverage gains - both in Medicaid and for people receiving tax
assistance to buy coverage - will be short-lived because the cost is
unsustainable as we've seen in several states that have attempted reform
in recent years.
• People in other developed nations all use some form of non-profit
national health insurance to get better care for less money. Their
average per capita cost of healthcare is about half what it is in the United
States, yet people in Canada and western Europe live about two years
longer and have lower infant mortality. As with our traditional Medicare
program, they have completely free choice of doctor and hospital. We
need to start from scratch with a Medicare-for-all, single-payer
approach.
On private insurers
• Private health insurance is an overpriced, defective product, and this plan
won't change that. The majority of Americans who face medical
bankruptcy start their illness with private health insurance, but are
bankrupted anyway by gaps in coverage, like co-payments, deductibles
and uncovered services.
• Individuals and families with incomes up to 400 percent of poverty
($73,240 for a family of 3) are eligible for skimpy subsidies to buy
coverage through a new "insurance exchange." Families of very modest
means (200-400 percent of poverty) are still responsible for paying an
unaffordable 8-12 percent of their income towards health insurance
premiums.
• The plan bans denials of coverage based on pre-existing conditions
(starting in 2013) and recissions (retro-active cancellation of coverage)
immediately. But insurers are still allowed to deny claims, and two
industry whistleblowers (Dr. Linda Peeno and Wendell Potter) have
testified before Congress that the industry is now so sophisticated in its
ability to deny claims, control care, and cherry-pick that these
protections are essentially worthless.
• Similarly, caps on out-of-pocket expenses (at $5,000 for individuals and
$10,000 for families) don't prevent medical bankruptcy because they
don't include expenses for uncovered services.
• Insurers are supposed to spend 85 percent of premiums on care, but
experience from Minnesota shows that insurers are able to circumvent
this rule easily by categorizing administrative expenses as "clinical" or
"quality improvement."
On Medicaid and community health center expansion
• The plan expands Medicaid after 2013 to additional low-income
Americans (up to 150 percent of poverty), which is good, but you don't
need this plan to expand Medicaid. Also, rising costs, and a lack of
funds for Medicaid at the state level, will quickly erode any gains in
coverage.
• The plan increases funding for community health centers, which again, is
good, but this could be done independently.
• The plan eliminates the Children's Health Insurance Program in 2014,
routing the beneficiaries into Medicaid (under 150 percent of poverty) or
into the purchase of private coverage), adding hassle and possibly
disrupting care arrangements for these children.
On the public option
• The public plan option is a sham. According to the Congressional
Budget Office, the premiums will actually be higher than premiums in
the private sector, and fewer than 2 percent of Americans will enroll. So
the public plan option will be an expensive, tax-funded subsidy to
private health insurance, because the public plan option will take the
sickest patients off their hands. It won't expand coverage or decrease
costs.
On the employer-mandate
• Starting in 2013, employers with payrolls over $500,000 are required to
provide coverage and pay a share of the premiums (72.5 % for
individual, 65% for family coverage) or pay an 8 percent payroll tax.
• Employers are not required to meet benefit standards until 2018, but
even then are only required to help fund the "lowest cost plan" that
meets the "essential benefits package," and so may offer very skimpy
coverage. The "basic plan" on the insurance exchange, for example, is
only required to cover 70 percent of benefit costs. As there are no cost
controls, coverage will deteriorate further, leading to a rise in
underinsurance nationwide.
• Millions of working Americans will continue to lack coverage. In
Hawaii, which has had an employer mandate since the 1970's, many
employers circumvent the requirement by hiring part-time employees or
using consultants. Also, small businesses are not required to provide
coverage (but receive a paltry tax credit for two years if they do).
On the insurance exchange and tax subsidies
• The plan creates a national insurance exchange, a marketplace where
individuals and small business would go (after 2013) to buy insurance. If
you have subsidized coverage, you would have to buy your insurance
through the exchange. Like the "Connector" in Massachusetts, the
exchange will add another layer of bureaucracy to the health system, and
an additional 4 percent overhead to every health plan.
• Subsidies for low-income people to purchase coverage will be
hopelessly complex, requiring verification of income, citizenship,
employer size, etc.
• Millions will have their subsidies change as they change or lose jobs.
Imagine finding a job, losing your insurance subsidy, then being laid off
your job and applying for a subsidy all within a year. How would this
work?
On evidence that this plan won't reduce the number of uninsured or
control costs

• The coverage gains from the plan won't last. What's happened in the
past when bills like this have passed in the states is that they run out of
money very quickly, healthcare is simply unaffordable, and then you
start to see the coverage expansions cut back. The subsidies shrink, the
Medicaid shrinks, and then you're back at square one, where you've
spent a lot of money and not made any progress. And we've seen this
over and over in the United States-in Massachusetts in 1988, in Oregon
in 1992, in Washington 1993-passed bills virtually identical to what's
being passed in the House right now, and there was no durable
improvement in the number of uninsured in those states. Healthcare was
not affordable ten years after those bills were passed.
• The Massachusetts plan is the model for this bill. Massachusetts
expanded Medicaid (which again, is good, but you don't need this plan to
expand Medicaid) and passed an individual mandate that makes it illegal
to refuse to purchase private health insurance. The fine is up to $1,068.
The plan has been very expensive. The state has opted to pay for that by
taking money from safety net clinics and hospitals, so that safety net
providers that care for immigrants, the mentally ill, people with
substance abuse, that provide primary care, they've seen their funds
shrunken, so that money could be handed over to purchase insurance
policies.
On the anti-abortion provisions
• The plan applies restrictions to policies sold through the insurance
exchange to undermine women's rights. It creates an insurance
exchange, a marketplace where you would go to buy your insurance. If
you have subsidized coverage, you would have to buy your insurance
through the exchange. And any insurance plan purchased through the
exchange would have to exclude coverage of abortion. So, for the first
time, Congress has stepped in and said that even with your own money,
with private money, it's illegal for insurance to cover abortion. It's a
tremendous step backwards for women's rights.

On prescription drug costs
• It fails to lower drug costs for the majority of Americans and those
unable to afford expense medications. Drugmakers have raised
wholesale prices on brand name drugs by 9 percent this year alone in
anticipation of reform.
• Biotech firms receive a windfall 12 year patent on new drugs.
• A very small share of the population, Medicare recipients who are in the
doughnut hole, will receive a discount on brand-name medications.
• The doughnut hole is reduced in size until it is eliminated in 2019.
• Overall, the pharmaceutical industry is thrilled with the bill, and Wall
Street has rewarded them by driving up the value of their stocks.
On undocumented immigrants
• Requires verification of citizenship to apply for subsidies for the
purchase of insurance. Thus, the plan mandates that non-citizens buy
insurance, but leaves it unaffordable for them.
Medicare Advantage Plans
• The plan phases out overpayments to Medicare Advantage plans. It also
requires them to spend at least 85 percent of premiums on care, but as
shown in states like Massachusetts, insurers can easily circumvent this
rule.
Summary of commendable features - some may not make it into final bill
• Medicaid expansion (delayed until 2013) to about 10 million people
• Increased funding for community health centers (to double capacity over
time) and other community programs like home visiting programs.
• Increased funding for primary care health professional education
• Phasing out of doughnut hole in Medicare prescription drug plan by
2019 and Medicare Advantage plan overpayments
• Eliminating pre-existing conditions (2013) and recissions (2010)
• Extending health benefit tax benefits available to married couples to
domestic partners
• Extending parental coverage to children aged 26-27
• Progressive tax on the wealthy for funding instead of taxing health plans
that are comprehensive (so-called "Cadillac" plans)
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tigereye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. well, that's depressing
I can't say that I like the idea of health care coverage being "required" and aM fine if people don't buy it. That has never made any sense to me.


My GP said that what she wanted was single payer. She hates filling out endless forms, which are all different, for myriad insurers.
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. Solving two problems at once
Edited on Wed Dec-02-09 10:51 PM by izquierdista
I think health insurance companies are a greater threat to Americans than any bunch of Afghans. Certainly the death toll from Afghans is nowhere near the 4500 people who die from lack of health care every year. So don't send the 30,000 troops to Afghanistan, send them on a search and destroy mission to take out all of the health insurance companies. After the health insurance companies look like Berlin in 1945, maybe something new can rise out of the ashes.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Bingo.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. +1
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. I think they should look like Hitler when the Russians found his bunker
a burnt corpse with a bullet in the head.
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PHIMG Donating Member (814 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #2
15. 45,000 die every year becuase of the broken health insurance model.
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Blecht Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #2
22. 45000, not 4500 -- nt
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yankeeinlouisiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
31. You forgot a Zero
It's 45,000 people die every year.
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #31
39. Thank you
I guess that makes my point 10 times over.
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Old Codger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
67. Agreed
But it is 45,000 not 4,500 that die every year ...
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
3. recommend
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. I'm there now, too.
K&R.

Dennis Kucinich voted the right way.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. and yet the "moderates" say it's champagne....
It's a shit sandwich, and congress doesn't even try to dress it up any longer. It's double plus better to just SAY it's the answer to everyone's prayers, and we'll swallow those lies just like all the others that come out of Washington.
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PHIMG Donating Member (814 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. How much AHIP Champagne has Pelosi, Reid, and the boys in the Senate downed?
AHIP is the insurance companies propaganda clearinghouse, where the industry speaks with one demonic voice animated by spokespuppet and alleged plastic sugery victim Karen Ignagni.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #6
18. Actually, most of the moderates would like to make it more corporate friendly than it is
The paltry public option that is there will probably not survive.
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PHIMG Donating Member (814 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Yup, Public Option is in the ICU a code away from the morgue. n/t
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KakistocracyHater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
9. so if private money is not allowed to pay for "abortion", what do you do-die?
if you have an ectopic pregnancy? It sounds like sneaky-lawyer-speak for zero birth control as well as abortion, since the Right uses the umbrella term abortion for bc pills, depro-vera, nuvo rings, etc.

"Birth Control" Pills cause early Abortions

By J.T. Finn (updated April 23, 2005)

Physicians across America -- and around the world -- are now confirming that the Pill, IUDs, Depo-Provera and Norplant cause early abortions.

First, a look at the Pill. Research shows that in many cases the Pill causes early abortions -- abortions the mother may not even know she's having. You may find this shocking, but the facts are clear after reading Randy Alcorn's book, titled;

"Does the Birth Control Pill Cause Abortions?"
http://www.prolife.com/BIRTHCNT.html <----from there

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csziggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
10. Where is that on the PNHP web site? I can't find it and would like to link directly
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PHIMG Donating Member (814 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. I just have the PDF without the URL to it
Edited on Thu Dec-03-09 01:07 AM by PHIMG
I copied the entire text of that document. Please check the NY metro chapter of PNHP. Its just going to be a link to the PDF document tho, not a web page.

Here is Dec'09 PNHP talking points from Len Rodberg (he's a great guy I've met him)

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2008/december/talking_points_why_.php
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csziggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #13
41. Thanks - that gave me the info to locate the original PDF location
Here is the direct link for anyone who wants it: http://pnhpnymetro.org/PNHP-Talking-points_Mandate-Plans.pdf

I had found the Rodberg talking points, but that is not as comprehensive as the list you posted in the OP.
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #10
24. PNHP site link:
This link is to their position summary:
http://www.pnhp.org/news/2008/december/talking_points_why_.php

The home page is, of course, http://www.pnhp.org .
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csziggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #24
42. I found that but not the complete list of what is wrong with the current bill as in the OP
With the clues he gave me I found that talking point PDF - link is http://pnhpnymetro.org/PNHP-Talking-points_Mandate-Plans.pdf
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
11. Sadly, there's no chance of starting over
Medicare for all is a great idea, but some conference committee bill merging the House and coming Senate versions is all we can hope for.

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PHIMG Donating Member (814 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. I believe in America.
Edited on Thu Dec-03-09 01:11 AM by PHIMG
Anything is possible if we have the will.

When the people lead the leaders will follow.
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MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. You are absolutely right...
Anything else shows that we are being marketed to accept the worst of all possible situations. We already HAVE the model we can use in Medicare.

Private health insurance must go!

My husband's home-made sign on the back window of his care is, "Medicare for ALL"
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #14
28. I believe in America as much as I believe in any other country
Which is to say, its people are gullible and easily led, just like people everywhere. We're not unique.

Given the corporate control of our media, the people aren't likely to be doing any leading on this issue.
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Johonny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #11
32. I agree
starting over means, new politicians... and it takes a long time to cycle in that many new faces.
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #11
46. Agree, no do overs. Would accomplish nothing.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #11
47. There IS a chance for starting over....
If enough REAL Democrats OPPOSE this and vote their conscience, we will be FORCED to start over.
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
12. K & R
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:28 AM
Response to Original message
20. K&R
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:54 AM
Response to Original message
21. Maybe if they all put on white coats and show up at the WH

Obama will listen to them. But probably not.
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PHIMG Donating Member (814 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 04:31 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. Obama all but kept them away
Oli Fein got invited to the one photo op only after PNHP threatened a demo outside the White House. One of the mad as hell doctors crashed a White House doctor-only photo op that was in the Rose Garden I believe. He showed up to the White House without an invite but was allowed to attend the event.

The Baucus sent single payer activists off to jail rather than give them a seat at the table.

The way Single Payer was dealt with tells you volumes about the loyalties of the brand of Democrat in charge of D.C.

Profits, not patients and not the party base either.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #25
43. EXACTLY !
"...The way Single Payer was dealt with tells you volumes about the loyalties of the brand of Democrat in charge of D.C..."

When you watch was was done, not what was said, it is very telling!



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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
48. It was Obama himself who was instrumental....
...at having the Kucinich Amendment (allow states to start their own Single Payer Systems) polled from the House Bill.

No one should NOW have ANY doubts who Obama is working for.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 03:03 AM
Response to Original message
23. Every time I think about this travesty and the dimwits supporting it, I hurt my Karma. n/t
:kick: & R
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voteearlyvoteoften Donating Member (548 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 07:26 AM
Response to Original message
26. Read this post
Good summary
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 07:30 AM
Response to Original message
27. Rec. I agree with the docs on this - the bill is still a bonanza
for the insurance business, which has had way too many taxpayer supported bonanzas already thanks to the GOP.

We give them tax breaks, tax money and pay the high premiums, then they don't pay. Great business - theft.

mark
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hayu_lol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. Use and expand on the present Medicare infrastructure...
to provide a SINGLE PAYER NATIONAL HEALTHPLAN that covers everyone in the country.

Anything else is simply posturing and photo ops.
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. Yes, but so many of our politicians have
great hair - a shame not to have all those photo ops...

I am hoping someone will realize that the Medicare extension is the only right thing to do....and actually DO IT!

mark
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bamacrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
29. Weiner for President. That sounds weird but he seems to have the right ideas.
He is a real progressive. Weiner/Grayson 12.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #29
40. I started to follow up with Weiner's office about the CBO score for SP when ...
I read on DU that Weiner said this was being done over the August recess.

As the months went by I began to question what exactly was being done, or more accurately what was not being done ... then came the new website by Weiner for the public option.

:shrug:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6362203&mesg_id=6362544

Fri Aug-21-09

I spoke with a staff member in Weiner's office yesterday about a single-payer bill being scored by the CBO. He said they have not sent over a bill to be scored yet we need to follow up with his office, as I said to the staffer that the analysis should be out well before the vote.







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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
33. They're Winning - Private insurance companies push for 'individual mandate'
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jun/07/business/fi-healthcare7

Thread from July...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6083122&mesg_id=6083122

"As momentum gains for reforms, insurers hope to turn it to their advantage by supporting a proposal that everyone buy coverage. It would be a boost for the industry, which has seen enrollment decline.


...But this time, it turns out, the health insurance industry has good reason to support at least some change: It needs it. Private health insurance faces a bleak future if the proposal they champion most vigorously -- a requirement that everyone buy medical coverage -- is not adopted.

...Insurers do not embrace all of the healthcare restructuring proposals. But they are fighting hard for a purchase requirement, sweetened with taxpayer-funded subsidies for customers who can't afford to buy it on their own, and enforced with fines.


...The industry's real trouble begins in 2011, when 79 million baby boomers begin turning 65. Health insurers stand to lose a huge slice of their commercially insured enrollment (estimated at 162 million to 172 million people) over the next two decades to Medicare, the government-funded health insurance program for seniors..."


For insurers, getting "run over" would be the adoption of a so-called single-payer plan, where the government pays all medical bills. Such a plan would wreak havoc on the private insurance market, and is widely viewed as politically unfeasible this year. So the best way for the industry to preserve the private insurance market -- and derail the campaign for a single-payer system -- may be to go along with more palatable proposals on the table now, said Jeffrey Miles, a healthcare analyst and president of the Miles Organization, a Los Angeles insurance brokerage firm..."



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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. Insurance companies need customers as the baby boomers move to Medicare...
From page 3 - "They are interested in 45 million new customers,"

"They are interested in 45 million new customers," he said, "but the first thing in everybody's mind is preserving their right to do business in a way that can be profitable and meet shareholder needs."

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Soylent Brice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
35. i still can't figure out for the life of me why anyone would think medicare for all
would be a bad idea.

perplexing.

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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #35
78. i don't think anyone here thinks it's bad, just not possible.
if we can't get a strong PO out of the senate, what makes anyone think single payer has a chance?
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Soylent Brice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #78
79. good point. still perplexing though.
it just amazes me how the simplest answer for once happens to be the easiest, yet there are still those in our government who would see to it that it doesn't happen.

it's just a little depressing and confusing.

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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #79
80. logistically, it may be tough to legislate such a huge industry out of existence, but there has to
Edited on Fri Dec-04-09 10:00 AM by dionysus
be ways it could be done without putting all those people out of a job. I'm not talking about the criminals at the top reaping the profits, there has to be many tens of thousands of regular people employed. ie, all the office workers and regular people that work there.

here's what gets me. ok, a lot of these guys get huge campaign contibutions, so one might think they'd be afraid of losing that, and therefore their seat in office. HOWEVER, isn't it common sense to say anyone who fixes health care isn't ever going to need a dime of campaign contributions ever again? they'de be reelected into eternity, i would think...
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Soylent Brice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. your last paragraph is flawed in the sense that
it makes entirely too much sense. ;)

it's funny becuase two amazing things would come out of this, as you said, tens of thousands of jobs, as well as senators and congresspeople that actually accomplished something for the people for a change.

it's a win win for everyone.

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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
36. Yet there are those who will suggest the expertise & morality somehow misses the mark
K&R
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
38. "the plan institutionalizes different levels of benefits & allows for skimpy plans (e.g. "bronze")"
that's all i need to know to see that the legislation is complete and utter GARBAGE.

everyone should have equal access and receive EQUAL levels of care.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #38
64. Wendell Potter mentioned this conference in a statements to Congress....
something to be aware of, as if there is not enough.

:)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6574289&mesg_id=6574683

"The Voluntary Benefits and Limited Medical Conference Los Angeles October 25th and 26th, 2009

Voluntary Benefits and Limited Medical Plans are a multi billion dollar industry and one of the fastest growing segments in the insurance industry in America...


Credit Crisis & the US Economy

The conference will also address how the credit crisis and the US economic recession will affect the voluntary benefits, mini medical, limited medical and worksite industry. Will there be a positive affect, or a negative one? How do we position ourselves in this industry to take full advantage of the credit crisis and the economy and help it to increase enrollments and sales for our organization? The credit crisis and economy can help a broker or insurance carrier increase their block of business, but only if they position themselves correctly.


The Uninsured Marketplace

The United States has over 50 million Americans with NO HEALTH INSURANCE. Over 120 million Americans have no dental insurance. It is estimated an equal to or larger percentage are underinsured! What are your plans on how to target and market to this potential customer base?

....."

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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
44. K&R.
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leeroysphitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
45. If this garbage passes in this form I know where I will be on election day for the forseeable future
Sitting at home along with a whole bunch of other disaffected, disenfranchised liberals who were counting on real HCR to make a difference in our lives.

And when this Obama, Reed and Pelosi are sitting at home one January morning watching Sarah Palin's inauguration they'll only have themselves to blame and I hope to god that the democrats who are elected down the road take it as a lesson.

They pissed a away the majority we all worked so hard for on this piece of shit bill. I hope that whatever they gained by fucking us all over was worth it. (no I don't I hope they CHOKE on it.)
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
49. That's 40 dot-points the RIGHT people will never read.
And they're choices are wrong for America.
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
50. Excellent points, worth bookmarking!
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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
51. They're right, of course
Medicare for all has been the most obvious option from the beginning.
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
52. Back to looking at Canadian real estate.
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BREMPRO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
53. The "doctors" are not without their own special interests here
This critique must be considered from the special interest lobby it comes from. They are very eager to put all the blame on the insurance industry for rising costs and protecting their profits. The more significant problem with health care costs are rising cost of "fee for service"delivery, the uninsured using expensive emergency rooms, and lack of preventive and wellness care, not just insurance profits and overhead. If we put all doctors on salary like at Mayo clinic, we would have better outcomes at nearly half the cost. The critique here must take that into consideration- that they want all the costs savings to be from the insurance industry and not their own. "fee for service" is a disastrous model for health care, with incentives to to more test and procedures. more health care is not better health care. The bills being considered actually addresses this.

The other problem is that this is a politically dead proposal- we've been over this- it does not have the votes. We CAN"T start over- there is no way we will have another chance at this for decades given the expected loss of seats for Dems.

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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. wow. . .
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #53
60. You're right about the Mayo Clinic model being superior but wrong
about protecting the profits of the middle men who add zero value or care. The middle men do not provide care of any kind. "More health care is not better health care" unless you have no health care to begin with, right? I disagree on decades as well. Doubling the cost of health care again in 9 years is unsustainable and this bill will not control costs. Of course, it's anyone's guess what the final bill will look like. I say keep pushing until it is over.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
54. If only...
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
55. I agree with the doctors
Eom
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
56. K&R
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
58. Kicked and recommended.
Thanks for the thread, PHIMG.:thumbsup:
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
59. Thank you but one question. As I read the Senate bill, eliminating pre-existing conditions
limitations starts within 90 days of bills passage.

"Subtitle B—Immediate Actions to
9 Preserve and Expand Coverage
10 SEC. 1101. IMMEDIATE ACCESS TO INSURANCE FOR
UNINSURED INDIVIDUALS WITH A PREEXISTING
12 CONDITION.
13 (a) IN GENERAL.—Not later than 90 days after the
14 date of enactment of this Act, the Secretary shall establish
15 a temporary high risk health insurance pool program to
16 provide health insurance coverage for eligible individuals
17 during the period beginning on the date on which such
18 program is established and ending on January 1, 2014."

http://democrats.senate.gov/reform/patient-protection-affordable-care-act.pdf

Tell me if I got this wrong.

And thanks for all your work on this.
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. take a guess
how much being in that high risk pool will cost you? The premiums for the "un-insurable" are bound to be sky high...

:shrug:


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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #62
87. Did you reply to my post? nt
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #87
89. yes, i did. nt.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. My, arent you verbose? nt
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #59
75. Self delete. Posted in wrong place. nt
Edited on Fri Dec-04-09 08:45 AM by rhett o rick
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Kermitt Gribble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
61. I agree - scrap this turd of a bill and start over. K&R!
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
63. Call your reps, the Dem leaders and the WH and let them know ...
your thoughts, especially if you had previously supported the public option.

They need to hear that people are changing their minds.

:)

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N_E_1 for Tennis Donating Member (437 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
65. K&R
Public Option is a compromise.

Compromise on that and ...

We need to catch up with the rest of the world.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
66. That is what Pres Obama should have presented to Congress in the first place....
At least negotiating from there might have left something for the people.
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Old Codger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
68. With all that
They are now going to cut medicare too, so now part of this is going to be paid for by cutting health care for seniors, the repugs are getting what they want, and the dems are going along with it... they need to scrap this piece of shit. No bill at all would be much much preferable... I may not vote repug but I will do my best to help unseat nay dems who voted for a reduction in medicare in order to give the insurance companies more money. F'em
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
69. Exactly like I've been saying all along:
The public plan option is a sham. According to the Congressional
Budget Office, the premiums will actually be higher than premiums in
the private sector, and fewer than 2 percent of Americans will enroll. So
the public plan option will be an expensive, tax-funded subsidy to
private health insurance, because the public plan option will take the
sickest patients off their hands. It won't expand coverage or decrease
costs.


This is exactly as I predicted. Our government, the friend of every business in need of some money, is not going to destroy the health insurance industry by providing a cheaper public option, which anyone with any sense would sign up for.

Instead, it will be more expensive to buy insurance through the public option for everyone not receiving a subsidy to help pay for it, which will be few people.

I've given up. I think the game is unwinable. There are hundreds of billions, if not many trillions of dollars at stake for the health insurance industry, and they have more than enough money to buy whatever they want in government and they will spare no expense to make sure that they, and not voters, control the game.

In 1776 a war was sparked over something as trivial as a tax on tea. Think about that.
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
70. Didn't I say this not long ago?
I said the Democrats and Obama need to come back next year and fight for the American People for a fucking change.

It is the only way the Democratic Party is going to avoid large losses in 2010 & 2012. Hell, you would even see the American People reward the Democratic Party very well.

Simple fact! Go to Hell Pom Pom Squad!
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
71. k&r nt
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quiet.american Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
72. 'Senate Passes Women’s Health Amendment'
Edited on Thu Dec-03-09 10:49 PM by quiet.american
http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/03/senate-passes-womens-health-amendment/?scp=7&sq=mammograms&st=cse
Breaking a three-day stalemate, the Senate approved an amendment to its health care legislation that would require insurance companies to offer free mammograms and other preventive services to women.

Just sayin'. While we lobby for all-or-nothing-at-all, how could something like this possibly be of use to anyone? :sarcasm:

(Oh, and by the way, Russ Feingold voted against this amendment, while that P.O.S. Vitter voted for it. Go figure.)

Also, the info cited in the OP is based on the House bill, and inaccurately at that (there are some serious whoppers).

What's the inaccuracy? You can look it up. The House and Senate bills are online and accessible with a quick visit to the Google. Once you find the bill, you can Ctrl+F through it to fact-check the OP's claims.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
73. This should be defeated -- dangerous to put this thru ----
however, while most of us understood that Baucus was working for the "for profit"

health care industry, I doubt any of us realized how disgusting and damaging this

legislation was going to be --

It's beyond "deform" --- it's criminal --

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lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
74. K/R Scrap it.. start over.. dont let Insurance Lobby anywhere near the process...
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
76.  Did you see my question in response #59? Seems to me that the pre-existing language
starts immediately (w/i 90 days). Let me know if I got it wrong. Important.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
77. i agree with the notion but it never had close to enough support in congress.
Edited on Fri Dec-04-09 09:24 AM by dionysus
it wouldn't even get out of committee.

the number of politically aware and active people is so low, until the non-voting populace wakes the hell up in this country, single payer is a pipe dream.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #77
82. People are aware

that's why they are politically inactive. You have pointed out the problem, the system is hopelessly fucked, all weight is given to the paymasters. People aren't stupid, they simply see no recourse in the political system.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #82
83. i disagree. the percentage of people politically aware is dismal compared to say, europe.
Edited on Fri Dec-04-09 10:25 AM by dionysus
here we're all political junkies, but outside of the political junkie bubble, most people are pathetically unaware.

even if the politically active people number in the millions, they're still outnumbered. for every activist i bet you there's 10 people that don't give a shit about any of it. as long as they have a place to live, beer, and the choice of their favorite sport or tv programs, they just don't give a fuck. and that, to me, is the root of the problem. that's how corporations can steal out on the open. there simply aren't enough people who know or even care.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #83
84. The level of awareness is much more basic

They can see their shrinking income, their inability to provide health care for their families, the mortgage which will leave them homeless.
They know they're being screwed and that neither party has their interests at heart. The bank bail out, these miserable fucking wars, the abortion that will be delivered as health care reform, the lack of jobs, they know, better than a lot of people around here, that there is no recourse in a political system that functions by, of and for the wealthy. They're not unaware, they refuse to engage in a sucker's game.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. serious question. if it's such a suckers game, why do you still bother?
Edited on Fri Dec-04-09 01:24 PM by dionysus
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. Because there are other options

Because there's more to politics than going into the voting booth, that act in fact should be an after thought.

Because ya gotta start somewhere.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
85. That is better than Obama's employer-based system.
Because at least your health care is not at the whim of your employer.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
90. HELP. The OP says that the "The plan bans denials of coverage based on pre-existing conditions"
starts in 2013, "(starting in 2013)". I have heard this elsewhere here in DU. But as I read the bill, it bans the denial of coverage based on pre-existing conditions immediately (w/i 90 days) of passage of the bill. Which is it?

The OP author wont respond to my question on this.
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