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So, essentially, there is no exit date from Afghanistan. We're being played.

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:53 AM
Original message
So, essentially, there is no exit date from Afghanistan. We're being played.
At a Senate armed services committee hearing, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton was asked whether the exit date was locked in. “I do not believe we have locked ourselves into leaving. It is intended to send a message about resolve and urgency,” she explained.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/obama-criticism-focuses-on-exit-date/article1386369/


This is what I feared when I allowed myself to be optimistic about an 'exit' date or a 'timeline' promised to be included in the president's Afghan strategy. The mention of 2011 in the president's speech was far short of a plan for withdrawal from Afghanistan, and has been presented in the wake of the address by all WH and Pentagon principals and advisers as a mere assessment point.

I posted SoS Clinton's remark made before the Senate Armed Services Committee yesterday because it illustrates that the reported effort to craft the planned escalation of force into an 'exit' strategy was designed to pacify critics who complained about stoking an open-ended conflict with the troop increase, and Afghans who either worry we're staying forever or worry that we'll leave the precarious government there in a lurch. There appears to have been no serious consideration by the WH and Pentagon of setting a real exit date, or even a committing to a definitive timeline.

What we got instead was a cast-off line in the president's speech about 'transfer of forces' in 2011, depending on 'conditions on the ground'. That little COTG rhetorical trick worked so well for the last administration (and the same folks who are presenting this 'new' Afghan policy) regarding leaving Iraq that this WH decided to roll with the deception as part of their Afghanistan presentation, hoping that anti-occupation Democrats are still believing the administration's earlier hints about leaving Afghanistan on a definite schedule.

Yep, the president gave us that little rhetorical twist in his speech about beginning the "transfer of our forces out of Afghanistan in July of 2011. Just as we have done in Iraq," the president said, "we will execute this transition responsibly, taking into account conditions on the ground."

I know, I know . . . President Obama isn't Bush. He's more intelligent, more caring, less connected to the MIC, so we should believe him when he said in the speech, "After 18 months, our troops will begin to come home."

Yet, I get the feeling that the remarks about troops coming home was just a pacifier for his critics on the left, and the qualifier about 'conditions on the ground' was a wink and a nod to those on the right who act as if suggesting an end to the quagmire is akin to treason.

Defense Sec. Gates, when asked about the 2011 date, told lawmakers that it was just a "clear statement of his (Obama's) strong intent."

"It is our plan to begin this transition process in July 2011. If circumstances dictate in December (2010), I think as I said the president always has the freedom to adjust his decisions," Gates said. He insisted that the transfers would begin in the "most uncontested places" of Afghanistan first. Other areas of the country could remain locked in "extraordinarily heavy combat," he said.

Asked whether the July 2011 start of the transfer of security responsibility to the Afghans may not include immediately a withdrawal of U.S. forces, Gates said:"That is correct."

When you strip away the gratuitous rhetoric about leaving, the Afghanistan occupation escalation plan really has no predictable end - just a wish and a prayer which relies on militarily subduing the Taliban into a weakened position where Afghan forces can mop-up; enlisting and training Afghans to fight our 'war on terror' (to the ultimate number of 170,000 Afghan troops, Admiral Mullen said).

Just last week, the U.S commander in Iraq, Gen. Odienero, illustrated the cheapness of promises of withdrawal based on COTG by insisting he had until March 2010 to 'decide' whether to extend the Iraq deployments beyond the exit date that they sold to the public a short time into this presidency. The possible delay? Iraqi politics. Time and time again, we've been promised an Iraq exit after some Iraqi political milestone. Every time we get close to the date outlined, someone in the WH or Pentagon raises the bar, insists on another delay, and makes a mockery out of our trust.

Yeah, I've heard all of the excuses. "It'll take time to undo the last administration's mess. Give it time." Interesting how most folks in opposition to Bush never assumed there was any credible justification at all for his foot-dragging. Now with this new Democratic president, we're being asked to accept excuses and delays in both occupations which will allow more fighting, more killings and deaths, and more individuals bent on violent resistance to the U.S. and NATO's advance across their sovereign territory.

The administration and supporters of this escalation want us to go to sleep for a year and a half while our military forces attack and kill Afghans they'll invariably determine is akin to al-Qaeda - while expecting Pakistanis to repel those combatants who will undoubtedly flow across their border.

How about the truth from the administration, right up front? The only way to 'end' the occupation in Afghanistan is to leave. Staying and escalating the troops and the attacks will create a new round of reprisals from all sides. There won't be any net reduction of U.S. forces in 2011 because the Pentagon leadership and the president have set our 'goals' there in terms of 'defeating' and 'dismantling' an ideology which passes like a virus among those subject to our arbitrary and indiscriminate attacks. Most of the Taliban in Afghanistan are free-agents from the fugitive 9-11 suspects instigating from within Pakistan.

What this escalation is going to produce is a solidifying and hardening of an entirely new 'enemy' in Afghanistan, apart from the 'plotters' of 9-11 who the administration has obliged by sending U.S. targets to their doorstep. The military has said they believe that only about 100 'al-Qaeda are still within Afghanistan. Many more Afghans will be killed by our indiscriminate forces and labeled 'combatants' or 'insurgent'. They are to be regarded by the administration as proxy for the 9-11 fugitives which elude us in Pakistan. Driven by our attacks to violent resistance, they will be regarded by our military as mere obstacles to their consolidation of power and control over Afghans.

It's almost as if the 'election' there was a mere formality. There is no great fealty pending to the Karzai regime from the majority of Afghans and the U.S. doesn't seem to care. If the administration did actually respect these Afghans right to self-determination, they would allow Afghans to decide where and how to hold their government accountable. In this imperialistic mugging, the Obama administration is demanding that Afghans adopt our own intractable grudge match against a mirage of Afghan al-Qaeda induced and exaggerated by the U.S. to justify our marauding shakedown.

Very few in our government have the strength of character to admit that it's going to be impossible to 'defeat' every vestige of al-Qaeda in the region. It's a ridiculous goal, as our military force and presence has been, from the start of the invasion, generating more resistant violence than our troops can reasonably put down. Yet this administration and supporters of this escalation of force have locked our nation into a fight we're destined to lose badly.

There is no exit in the president's escalation plan for Afghanistan, only a prospect of more fighting, killing, and unrest; both in the country and across the border into Pakistan. I suppose, when they've had enough of the killing and deaths, they'll declare some kind of success or victory and bring our troops home. Not before our casualty numbers begin to look like Iraq's, I fear. That's a damn high price for this cynical politicking.
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xiamiam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. thats why the neocons approve..nt
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rollingrock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
50. Sarah Palin certainly does
nt
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FLAprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
2. yep
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
3. SSDD....
...nothing changes.
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #3
17. SSDF
As I say, "Same Shit, Different Flies".
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
4. I disagree with your conclusion, imo, you made it in a vacuum. The 'pacifier' you claim happens to
Edited on Thu Dec-03-09 11:31 AM by blm
be the work of Biden, Reed and Kerry who were all on record opposing McChrystal's plans, while Gates, Clinton and Holbrooke supported the plan.


I doubt Biden, Reed and Kerry intend to look the other way as the mission is carried out. I believe they INTEND to guide Obama in its direction to eventually achieve THEIR goal (won despite the heavy influence from the hawk camp) of narrowing the military mission and increasing the civilian community and infrastructure work so that turnover of security to UN and Afghan forces can happen within the stated 18 month target.

Your conclusion relies on viewing the plan in a vacuum - with no regard for the efforts and goals of three voices (Biden, Reed, Kerry) who essentially agree with much of your own stated view, and are now in the job of fulfilling the mission plan Obama decided upon to make their goal of a timely withdrawal happen.

In all honesty, I do not have 100% trust in Obama because of his tendency to listen to political cynics like the Clintons and their hawk camp, but, I cannot ignore that he also listens to the views of some I do trust....especially when it comes to the global terrorist issue that I've been following for two decades now.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. I wish them the best of luck
I don't believe that Biden, Kerry, or Reed would have escalated this occupation. Holbrooke, I'm less sure of. I take all of their advice and efforts as their attempt to mitigate what they saw as an inevitable decision of the president to defer to his generals' request to escalate. A hope and a prayer. That's what they're hanging on.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. I know you wish that sincerely. I really trust that they will have increasing influence on the
direction of this plan, as I believe Obama doesn't want this war to expand the way the hawks wanted - that narrowing of mission sought by Biden and Kerry is not the pacifier it may appear to the skeptics. I think the hawks are the ones who will be (personally) disappointed in the long run even as they will be quick to claim credit for any timely success that brings about withdrawal.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
16. good work.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. you too, cliff
:pals:
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
46. It doesn't matter what they"intend". Obama will do his own thing and I don't believe it is pretty.
Biden and Kerry only have so much influence, and Reid is a wimp .As far as the SOS, I applaud her for at least telling the truth, which was more than the WH did.They tried to "spin" this as a withdrawal.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #46
58. Reed, as in Jack Reed.
And Biden, Reed and Kerry ARE serious about withdrawal goal. They aren't going away, and Obama DOES need them.
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
5. Our main exports are war & fraudulent financial products.
Obama would never have been allowed on the ticket if he wasn't committed to supporting the status quo.
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
6. K & R
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
8. K&R.
Yes, to run the kind of counterinsurgency operation that President Obama said he's aiming for in his West Point speech this week, the U.S. Army says there needs to be 600,000 troops in Afghanistan. President Obama obviously knows this - and yet his escalation means we'll only* have 100,000 troops there.

Therefore, we know one of two three things is going on. Either:

1) President Obama believes we can conduct the kind of counterinsurgency he says we need with one sixth of the troop levels his counterinsurgency experts say are necessary, or

2) President Obama is escalating the war with no intention of halting an escalation, but instead an intention of continuing to escalate to much higher troop levels irrespective of his vague promise to try to bring troops home in 2011, or

3) President Obama is risking the lives of 100,000 troops in order to prevent being labeled "weak" - but with no intention of actually waging the counterinsurgency strategy he publicly says is necessary.
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German Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #8
54. Why only count the troops
When there are about 100.000 private contractors in Afganistan. And they certainly are not paid by private corporations.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/12/so_how_many_private_contractors_are_there_in_afgha.php?ref=fpb

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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
9. We will start leaving in July 2011 - 1 man per day - depending on the conditions
Edited on Thu Dec-03-09 11:35 AM by Major Hogwash
of the political situation in America.*

*Subject to change without notice.


Ya gotta read the fine print, man.



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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
10. Very well said, bigtree
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. I'm very tired, TFC
spiritually.

Thanks for the compliment.
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rtassi Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. A lot of us are Big Tree .. We will try our best to keep each other going ok?
Get out doors and get quiet when ever you can ... take breaks ... it helps!
rt
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. ok
thanks, rtassi.
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
12. glad to k&r 10! I truly hope those who are supportive of the Admin's actions realize they're
being supportive of an extension to warfare that nearly all of us were vehemently against almost a year ago because the generals were saying there really wasn't Al Q in Afg anymore, and the main reason we went, got up and left, probably years before. Death and destruction will come from this war being continued for however long, nothing more. Well, except debt.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
13. damn, just more anti-war slogans, and lack of critical thinking?
Edited on Thu Dec-03-09 11:53 AM by G_j
:sarcasm::sarcasm:
:sarcasm::sarcasm:



there is no honest exit strategy
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. how do you know for certain that there is not?
.
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pundaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. self deleted
Edited on Thu Dec-03-09 03:35 PM by pundaint
Sorry, my post didn't make sense to me either.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #22
36. it comes from a number of things I've been reading
Edited on Thu Dec-03-09 06:18 PM by G_j
the most recent, that I could find quickly:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7137997

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/12/02-1

Published on Wednesday, December 2, 2009 by Creators Syndicate
Obama's War
by Jim Hightower


<snip>
Washington's war establishment asserts that adding some 30,000 more troops will let us greatly expand and train the Afghan army and police force during the next couple of years so they can secure their own country and we can leave.

Mission accomplished!
Nearly every independent military analyst, however, says this assertion is not just fantasy, it's delusional — it'll take at least 10 years to raise Afghanistan's largely illiterate and corrupt security forces to a level of barely adequate, costing us taxpayers more than $4 billion a year to train and support them.

Obama has been taken over by the military industrial hawks and national security theorists who play war games with other people's lives and money. I had hoped Obama might be a more forceful leader who would reject the same old interventionist mindset of those who profit from permanent war. But his newly announced Afghan policy shows he is not that leader.
<snip>
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. I think Biden, Reed and Kerry intend for Obama to keep the mission narrow and on course to meet the
Edited on Thu Dec-03-09 08:02 PM by blm
timeline. They've been battling the hawk camp over the increase in troops for at least 8 months now, and they won some victories - I doubt they will let Obama stray much from the stated mission and timeline.
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
14. If you think we are ever TRULY leaving Afghanistan --
just remember how "leaving Iraq" looks -- thousands of permanent troops that will remain there to "protect" the embassy.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
15. ...
I said this before Obama's speech.


After listening to the speech, I saw no reason to adjust my speculation. I didn't take the July 2011 date as a withdrawal date/exit date - there were too many verbal cues in the speech saying otherwise.


K&R
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #15
51. I wish people would read that again, Solly Mack. n/t
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
18. The alleged "exit strategy" is the thin sugar coating on the poisen pill.
Meant to pacify the left.
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rtassi Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
20. Big Tree K&R n/t
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paparush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
23. We'll leave Afghanistan just like we've "left" Iraq, and Korea, and Japan, and Europe..
We'll "leave" it with permanent bases.

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PinkoDonkey Donating Member (112 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #23
34. exactly.
The question isn't "when will we leave?" but rather "when will we significantly reduce the number of troops on the ground?"

It is tempting to say "we'll never leave." But that isn't true. We will actually leave someday. That day is the same day we can no longer afford to (attempt to) police the globe. Hopefully we will plan for this day and do it on our own terms.
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jeff47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
24. Aren't we supposed to be the side that understands nuance?
"Locking in" an exit date from a warzone 2 years from now would be idiotic. We won't know if we want to accelerate our departure, or it's possible that we do so good a job with our new nation building-like strategy that the Afghanis will want us to leave some troops around.

We just don't know what's going to happen between now and then.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
25. That's the truth. And it doesn't even matter if you believe Obama means what he says--
I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he does--it still means nothing. Promises are words, not actions. We don't know when or if the troops will leave Afghanistan. Nothing guarantees they will. All we know is that more troops are going.
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Hear hear
How many times will we be duped into believing anything politicians have to say will contain a modicum of honesty.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Every time
is my answer. Every time enough people will be duped for history to continue to repeat itself.

All anyone has to do is pick up a paper from the 68 election and read Nixon's promises to get the idea.
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dbmk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #26
62. Well, he said he would put more troops into Afghanistan
Seems he was being honest?
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swilton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
31. Perhaps
We should be worried - that Obama is more intelligent than Bush

We've been had on Afghanistan, on health care and on economic collapse - the three biggest issues that have impact on our lives directly and indirectly.

I just saw some videos about the Brzezhinski's book THE GRAND CHESSGAME and new world order theory - in the aftermath of American hegemony, there will be a new world order, one run by corporations - Obama would behave no differently if this in fact was his plan.
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Thickasabrick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
32. Patreus basically blew the timeline off in an interview saying they
were not looking for exits. Smoke and Mirrors.
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aldo Donating Member (297 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
33. Just like we were by Obama's candidacy
Obama is owned, lock, stock and barrel by the corporate war state. We have corporatism, Musolini's definition of fascism. Obama is merely the figurehead.
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PHIMG Donating Member (814 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #33
45. +ding +ding +ding +ding
The only question is was the pre-nomination IL Senate Obama just an act or did they re-educate him or threaten his family after the election?

Gives new meaning to the phrase "Transition" period. Wouldn't you just love to be a fly on the wall for the first 100 days after the election?

I bet it gets scary as fuck.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
35. Ya think? No one here should be surprised about being played
by a politician. They're all alike, with VERY FEW exceptions....Bernie Sanders and Paul Wellstone come to mind. BO is no different than other politicians and he never fooled me. They all lie, twist words, spin their heads off and pretty much say and do whatever it takes to get elected, knowing full well what they're saying is total bull. As long as people continue to fall for their rhetoric, their pretty smile, their charming personalities and cute dance steps, nothing will ever change. Plan on being played until you meet your maker.
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
37. So the only question left...
Edited on Thu Dec-03-09 06:24 PM by branders seine
Is Obama more like LBJ (without the domestic social agenda) or Richard Nixon (without the Gerald Fordand without the commitment to the environment)?
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humbled_opinion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
38. Obama has just...
become Bush Lite.... Maybe his poll numbers won't be far behind. Do you think we can find a candidate that will "Do the Right Thing" next time? By 2012 we will be embroiled in a bloody senseless war that will have bankrupt our nation.

The only exit strategy that is being put forth is win and we leave but nobody defines what win means.
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Clear Blue Sky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
40. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...nt
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marshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
41. I think Obama has given us a wink and a nod
And that's all we're going to get about a specific exit timetable. There is too much danger that the Taliban can use an exact date in their favor, and then the neocons would come back throwing that in Obama's face.

He's got to play this really close to the vest. And we've got to learn to live with reading the signals.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. we've been hoping that all along
. . . hope you're right. Don't think so. Too many negative consequences to this escalation.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
42. It's just the same old bullshit that we've been getting from the MIC for decades.
It got old 40 years ago, it just smells worse each passing decade.

sw
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tiny elvis Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
44. looking forward to afghanistan having a gigantic organized army
with tanks and missiles
maybe we can give them some nukes too
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
47. Was it the IWR that gave the President the right to bomb Pakistan?
Edited on Fri Dec-04-09 01:39 AM by Major Hogwash
Did the infamous Iraq War Resolution give the President, whoever it may be, the right to invade any country they decide to invade?

Or was the invasion of Afghanistan ordered by Bush alone?
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 01:49 AM
Response to Original message
48. And no exit date for... Pakistan!
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 01:49 AM
Response to Original message
49. K & R. Thoughtful observations, bigtree. For so many reasons, it seems very difficult
Edited on Fri Dec-04-09 01:54 AM by chill_wind
to trust the 18 month scenario. But at least the Generals and their message multipliers have gotten a little more sophisticated than their predecessors. They aren't calling it a 2 -3 week cakewalk. Liars and manipulators.

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2003/04/14/030414ta_talk_hertzberg

McCrystal, though? We trust him why?
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girl_interrupted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #49
52. Awesome post bigtree..we've been Punked
one day we hear one thing, the next it's another. And I have feeling that's how it's going to go for the next 18 months. Depressing.
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Kalun D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
53. No Kidding?
""So, essentially, there is no exit date from Afghanistan. We're being played.""

No kidding? I noticed that about 2 months after the inauguration, when Obama started going backwards on just about every single substantial promise he made.

he's a corporate democrat to the bone. Whatever is good for big money is what he's doing.

just look at his donor list, Goldman Sachs, $1,000,000. And when they get $Billions in bailouts and huge bonuses to the CEO's the year after they supposedly needed a "bailout". It's all good in the corporate hood.

they're not going to end these wars, the warmonger corps are making too much money.
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KakistocracyHater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 03:38 AM
Response to Original message
55. kill the war
war without end will kill America if we don't stop it
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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 04:08 AM
Response to Original message
56. Or why, those that don't, are secretly yet visibly rejoicing.
Not just because he's done what they wanted, but because it will set progressives back another decade.
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bkozumplik Donating Member (391 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 05:53 AM
Response to Original message
57. I'm reminded of Obama's answer at an early debate
It was a question at the awful Wolf Blitzer hosted debate with all the Democratic Presidential candidates at the time: Clinton, Obama, Edwards, Gravel, Kucinich.

The question was to the effect of, 'You know Osama Bin Laden is hiding in a village and will only be there for another 20 minutes or so. Do you launch hellfire missiles on the village knowing it will cause civilian casualties in order to kill him?' Kucinich was the only no, saying that we don't run our affairs with assassination. I believe Gravel rejected the question.. Obama and the others said yes-- Send in the missiles. Obama was particularly resolute about it. I call that weak minded murder. Others in our country would call it strength I suppose. Realpolitik, whatever. We as a people don't give a rat's ass about the mayhem and murder we cause over there. Its not even a factor in the debates-- its how much of OUR "blood" and OUR "treasure" we spend that we care about. Collateral damage? *yawn* yeah thats really regrettable. ho hum.

Makes me sad.

You know, on a seperate note, If I lived in Afghanistan and someone dropped a Hellfire missile on my village, or funeral or wedding party, because they were looking for some random guy, I'd be pretty damned pissed off about it. I would make it my life's work to get revenge, and I'd sure feel like I had righteousness on my side.
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AzDar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
59. Exit Date = When the pipeline is secure.
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Lars77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
60. US/Uzbek Railroad project for Afghanistan
http://enews.ferghana.ru/article.php?id=2594

"Speaking of benefits for the United States, they are also obvious: cheap Uzbek labor, construction materials and infrastructure, built by Uzbekistan. It is easier for Americans to enable Uzbeks to build the railroad and this communication line will effectively operate for the supply of American cargo to central Afghanistan via the Salang passage"

Uzbekistan is a major cotton producer. The government forcefully takes school children from schools and uses them as child slave labour in the fields when the time comes to harvest the cotton. They would love a railroad to enhance trade in the region.


BTW, Ferghana.ru is the best source for Central Asian news. They are banned in Uzbekistan for reporting on the organized torture and murder by the government, and especially for reporting on the Andijan Massacre.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andijan_massacre

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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
61. Well it didn't take long to back off from that goal.
I knew it!!

:grr:
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SandWalker1984 Donating Member (533 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
63. Dennis Kucinich says the fight should be here, not Afghanistan
Far from being a necessary part of the US's national security strategy, the Afghanistan war is actually a threat to it, says Ohio congressman Dennis Kucinich.

“America is in the fight of its life and that fight is not in Afghanistan -- it's here," Kucinich declared. "We are deeply in debt. Our GDP is down. Our manufacturing is down. Our savings are down. The value of the dollar is down. Our trade deficit is up. Business failures are up. Bankruptcies are up.

"“The war is a threat to our national security. We’ll spend over $100 billion next year to bomb a nation of poor people while we reenergize the Taliban, destabilize Pakistan, deplete our army and put more of our soldiers’ lives on the line."



I agree.
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ShamelessHussy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
64. their ego's will be our downfall
as it usually is with empires... and i am sure we have many enemies out there who were betting on this fact.

let's face it, the Iron Triangle (military-industrial-congressional complex) has 'won' in the sense that they have little to no opposition any more, but with that victory they have sown the seeds of their (and ours) own destruction.

brings to mind the ancient Chinese curse...

"Be Careful What You Wish For: You’re About To Get It"

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