I saw Obama pledge to send more troops into Afghanistan in the debate, and didn't believe him

[ProfessorPlum]

Instead I thought: that was brilliant framing. That position allowed Obama to do several things:

1. It kept him to the right of "all war all the time" McCain on Afghanistan, which didn't allow the right wing to call him weak on defense.

2. It allowed him to implicitly criticize Cheney/Bush for NOT sending enough troops in the first place, and for allowing their misplaced focus on Iraq to kill our chances in Afghanistan - but without having to spell it all out for the mouth-breathers who wouldn't brook criticism of the Chimpster's wisdom.

3. It presented a thoughtful distinction between those two wars to the audience, which consisted of voters of every stripe, and allowed him to be seen as not against war in general (oh noes!), just against bad strategy and stupid wars.

Never in a million years did I think that Obama actually meant to do what Cheney should have done in the first place, invade and occupy "correctly", nine years after the fact. it's moronic.

[TwilightGardener]

1. What's moronic is admiring what you assumed was manipulation and

dishonesty, especially on a matters as important as war, national security, and foreign policy.

[tyne]

2. Exactly.

Focusing on Afghanistan was one of the main reasons I voted for Obama.

[ProfessorPlum]

21. Focusing is exactly right. Focusing is fine. Focusing is great.

Escalating = rampant stupidity.

[timeforpeace]

41. Everyone thought it was just a wink-wink, nudge-nudge thingie just to get elected. Who knew?

[cbdo2007]

6. Exactly what I'm thinking when people say they voted for him DESPITE his position

on Afghanistan.

WHAAA??!?!? Geez, how far down on your list of important candidate positions is the lives of our troops and if it's that far down on your list why are you so freaked out about the surge now?

[Winterblues]

8. Three hundred America Troops lost their lives last year in Afghanistan

Forty thousand Americans lost their lives from lack of Health Care last year....My concerns were for Major Health Care Reform and not soldiers in Afghanistan. More Americans die every year in Los Angeles alone from traffic accidents...I think a bit of perspective is in order here..

[EFerrari]

11. It's not moronic to expect a politician to behave like a politician.

[TwilightGardener]

14. No--but how stupid is it to say "Atta boy, I just LOVE those lies coming out of your mouth! You're

fooling everybody! Good on ya!" Only to realize that perhaps you should have taken him at face value after all.

[EFerrari]

19. I think people listening to campaign rhetoric do that all the time.

They try to make sense of what is coming out of the mouths of candidates who usually will say anything to anyone.

[TwilightGardener]

24. Obama is somewhat more honest than the average politician.

It's actually a bit of a hindrance for him, at times, in that he doesn't always put forth snappy and simplistic messages (the sort of thing that most people respond to--which is also what the GOP has mastered). He hedges and dabbles in gray areas, in an effort to be honest and respect opposing points of view. But he was pretty clear on Afghanistan.

[EFerrari]

44. Do you read his hesitation as honesty? Interesting.

That may be right. I don't know him well enough yet to come to that conclusion.

[TwilightGardener]

50. He chooses his words carefully, strives for accuracy, and usually gives a nod to the

opposing viewpoint. I read his cautiousness as both political maneuvering and an effort to be honest. My sense is he really, really hates being quoted on something or promising something and being proven wrong, or being accused of not delivering.

[ProfessorPlum]

27. What else can we take him at face value about?

Regulating Wall Street? Getting out of Iraq? Providing health care, for fuck's sake? Not, not, and not.

It's called "framing", and unless you are being deliberately stupid, you understand that framing of issues has to vary a bit depending on who your opponents and audience are.

[TwilightGardener]

32. Has there not been a bill in Congress to impose Wall Street regulations, or was I mistaken on that?

(the bill that the black caucus in the House has threatened to hold)? Is there not a bill being debated in the Senate about health insurance reform with a public option? Are we not drawing down troops in Iraq? Maybe Obama's initiatives aren't up to your particular standards, but they aren't proof of lies either.

[ProfessorPlum]

39. you know how hollow those examples are.

[TwilightGardener]

40. I don't think they're hollow.

[YOY]

15. That is what Politicians do though...

n.t.

[TwilightGardener]

18. How uber-cynical does one have to be to NEVER take a politician's word seriously?

And far worse, to ASSUME the candidate is lying, support the lie, and to perceive a "wink-wink, this is all for show" where there isn't any?

[YOY]

34. Uber-cynical? No. Politicians lie.

That's just reality.

Even FDR told some whoppers I bet if someone wants to do the research.

Rain is wet. Ice is cold. Politicians lie. Party or philosphy has nothing to do with it.

[TwilightGardener]

37. You must have missed the word "never". It's uber cynical to discount

100% of what a candidate says, especially when he goes into specifics, especially when he has a pretty clear record of being consistent. And I didn't discount 100% of what Bush said. He wanted to be a War Preznit, and I knew that was true. He acted as if he wanted to get Saddam Hussein, and I knew that was true.

[YOY]

38. 100%? No...but to take everything with a grain of salt is far from cynical.

n.t.

[anigbrowl]

42. I have to agree. I decided to support Obama after that debate*

(* I'm not 100% certain which debate the OP refers to, but I'm thinking of the Democratic primary debate where Obama first laid out his strategy on Afghanistan and said he would follow through on it as soon as he had achieved some kind of stability in Iraq.)

Not because I particularly like war, but because I thought he was telling the hard truth about what needs to be done. I feel it's important to keep squeezing the Taliban and thier supporters along the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan until such time as the Afghan government and army is sufficiently solid to provide decent internal security for ordinary people inside Afghanistan and maintain that right up to the border with Pakistan, instead of allowing that territory to function as an autonomous zone for those who seek to destabilize both countries.

[tnlefty]

3. I know people who thought that he was "just talking tough"

to get elected. Oh, well....

[tyne]

4. Actually....

he was just talking smart...which he is.

[rollingrock]

5. That's your opinion nt

[tnlefty]

46. If you say so...

This evening I talked to a recovering republican, who voted for W* and realized that disaster and voted for Obama, and she's pissed, too. Should I tell my Mom she's a moron as was mentioned earlier in this thread, or that she has no opinion because she voted to try to end these wars and stop the bloodshed and wasteful spending?

She did tell me a few years ago that Dipshit's** promise of a humble foreign policy and no nation building is the thing that resonated with her, and she was tired of the scandals of the Clinton years.

She was one of many, alot of them actual democrats, who thought he was just talking tough to be elected in the mindset the country was in at the time.

[berni_mccoy]

7. This has to be the absolute worst excuse for voting for Obama while not supporting his decision

[rollingrock]

10. Because you voted for someone

means you have to support everything they do? isn't that the repuke way of thinking?

the only reason many of us voted for him is because we were afraid of the alternative, McCain/Palin. In other words, many people saw him as the lesser of two evils.

[TwilightGardener]

16. The OP is saying he thought Obama's foreign policy was a giant LIE

to manipulate the public, and thus he apparently supported a candidate whom he felt was extremely dishonest.

[rollingrock]

20. Everyone knows

that its impossible to get elected in this country if you appear to be dovish on defense.
the MSM would bury you, along with the GOP attack ads that would be running 24/7.

[TwilightGardener]

26. If a politician can't run on a particular message or idea (in this case, pacifism), then

you have to wonder why it's so unpopular that it has to be sneaked in the back door, through lies.

[ProfessorPlum]

25. There is a difference between policy in action, and statements made about policy

For example, De Gaulle talked very tough about Algeria, but had the wisdom to step very carefully out of that troubled country.

Do you see? There is a difference between _saying_ the right thing about a thorny issue, and _doing_ the right thing. Rhetoric and framing are important, but even more important are the things that actually happen.

Bush spoke on and on about "winning" in Afghanistan, but the plan was never to win. His actions didn't match his rhetoric, and nor am I particularly surprised by that.

[TwilightGardener]

29. If Obama had been vague about the merits of Afghanistan, I can see

where you might draw your own conclusions. But he was explicit, over and over again, about his plan for the region.

[ProfessorPlum]

30. ? Who said this was an excuse for voting for him

I certainly wasn't going to vote for the Geezer/Dingbat ticket, but smart framing during both the primary and general campaigns did show he was a thoughtful person. Correctly guessing how your message will be received - by the right wing, by the media, by the progressives, etc., is a sign of a smart person.

We already know that smart people can be pulled deeper into the wrong wars, with devastating effects. See the Kennedy/Johnson administrations. Just thought Obama had learned that lesson.

[On the Road]

9. I Surprised So Many People are Shocked

Whether you agree with Obama or not, his actions have been consistent with his words all along.

[rollingrock]

12. The problem is, his words have not been consistent for the most part

Obama has broken nearly all of his campaign promises so far, except for the one where he promises to expand Bush's wars.

[EFerrari]

13. Not really. NAFTA, transparency, lobbyists come to mind.

HIs admin condemned the coup in Honduras and then did everything possible for it to succeed. I don't know if he's less or more consistent than other politicians, I don't know him well enough yet.

[ProfessorPlum]

22. Bullshit.

So many of his important "pledges" have had next to no progress. Are we out of Iraq? Gitmo closed? Due process/habeas corpus/Geneva protections afforded to our prisoners in Afghanistan? Don't Ask Don't Tell repealed?

nope. Just increasing the flow of money to the war profiteers.

[YOY]

17. Look at it this way: those who really wanted it and it was a deciding factor got their pony!

Congrats to them! You won! Yeah you!

[ProfessorPlum]

33. Indeed, that might be a useful way to look at it.

They guessed that this was something Obama was telling the truth about. Yeah them.

[YOY]

35. Total. Silver. Lining.

Now if we could just figure out why the RW is so pissed about getting what they want...

[wuushew]

23. Blatant lies are quite common, Hillary vowed to "Obliterate Iran"

that has to be viewed as a lie because the alternative would be to terrible to contemplate.

Moderates and undecideds eat that shit up. I have no idea if they actually believe it, but it gets them to the polls. Lies are often a useful means to an end.

[ShortnFiery]

28. What part ot "al Qaeda is no longer in Afghanistan" can you - or OBAMA - not comprehend? eom

[ProfessorPlum]

31. ? directed at the wrong post?

[librechik]

36. dogwhistle clogged

or maybve it's the ears of Obama's base.

[NJmaverick]

43. So you were wrong in your assessment that Obama was a dishonest politician

boy I bet you were surprised that you voted for an honest man.

[B Calm]

45. After the first time he sent more troops, I have to admit I'm surprised he is sending more!

[LWolf]

47. I believed him.

One of several reasons he never earned my support.

[L0oniX]

48. What was it we thought? O yea ...when he gets into office he will go left. pppffffffffttt

[MisterK]

49. Gotta make that money

Its all about the dollars. Invastors need their checks